NY brothers charged in plot to steal $5M New York Lottery ticket

Nov 14, 2012, 8:07 am (223 comments)

New York Lottery

They waited until shortly before the $5 million winning ticket in a scratch-off lottery game would have been worthless. Then, when two brothers from the Syracuse area went to claim the prize, they made an unusual offer: They told state lottery officials that they would be happy to take home less than the full amount if they could avoid a news conference.

(See NY brothers claim $5M win from '06 lottery ticket, Lottery Post, Oct. 17, 2012.)

The officials made them wait some more, saying a security check had to be completed before the big payday.

But "security check" turned out to be another name for an investigation that ultimately led to the brothers' arrest on Tuesday on larceny and other charges. The authorities said the two brothers had tricked the actual winner, a customer at their parents' convenience store.

The brothers — Andy Ashkar, 34, and Nayel Ashkar, 36 — were charged with attempted grand larceny and conspiracy. The Onondaga County district attorney, William J. Fitzpatrick, said in a statement that Andy Ashkar was also charged with criminal possession of stolen property, the ticket in the "$500 Million Extravaganza" game, sold in October 2006.

Andy Ashkar told the buyer at the time that it was only a $5,000 winner and, after pocketing $1,000 as a "fee," gave the man $4,000, according to the statement from Mr. Fitzpatrick.

Mr. Fitzpatrick said in the statement that when the Ashkars went to the lottery's headquarters in Schenectady in March of this year, they were told they would have to wait for the "security check."

The next milestone mentioned in Mr. Fitzpatrick's statement was an article last month in The Post-Standard of Syracuse about the Ashkars and the winning ticket — a story Mr. Fitzpatrick said "was actually put out by the lottery security division in an effort to have the real winner come forward." Other news outlets including The Associated Press also carried the report, based on a news release from the lottery's communications office.

John Lammers, the enterprise editor of The Post-Standard, said the newspaper assigned two reporters to the story because the editors wondered why the lottery had disclosed so much in a news release. Usually, he said, the lottery waits to announce a winner's identity at a news conference.

"Nobody put a fast one over on us," he said. "We were suspicious of this from the get-go. Something was going on.

"We put it on the front page because of all the red flags, and our readers got it immediately."

The lottery's news release said Andy Ashkar had bought the ticket but had waited to redeem it "out of concern that the winning ticket could negatively influence his life if he did not plan properly before being publicly introduced."

"Most notably," the news release said, "Ashkar said he did not want the winning ticket to influence his engagement and subsequent marriage." The release also said that Andy Ashkar wanted to share the money with his brother "to show his appreciation for all that Nayel had done for him during his life."

Carolyn Hapeman, a spokeswoman for the lottery, said at the time that it was "unusual" for the lottery "to send out a prerelease about an upcoming winner event." The news release said the lottery "requires" players who win $1 million or more to attend a news conference.

"We've been getting a lot of calls about this particular ticket and these individuals," she said on Oct. 17, "and rather than anybody question 'Is it true? Is it true?' we sent out what we know thus far." On Tuesday, she referred questions about the case to Mr. Fitzpatrick's office.

His statement said the false release had served its purpose; the real winner had come forward "and will hopefully be awarded his actual winnings pending the conclusion of the case against the Ashkar brothers."

There was no answer at the Ashkar family's store or at their homes.

As for the real winner, the authorities did not release his name.

NY Times

Comments

Jill34786's avatarJill34786

Just unbelievable! their entire story was skeptical from the start.

mcginnin56

All's well that ends well.    Lover

Nikkicute's avatarNikkicute

Don't mess with New York!!!!! lol

 

Just finished watching Good Morning America, the man who won said he

was confused by all of the zero's and always felt he was cheated somehow.

 

You see how GREEDY they were? Said they would give him $5,000 to avoid taxes

then charged a $1,000 "fee" and gave him $4,000j!!!! $1,000 "fee" for what!!!!

whoo greed is UGLY!!!!

jamella724

This is the saddest thing about cheating, if you are bad and your intentions are bad, you will end up in jail.  These two brothers will just pay what they did...stealing money is still a bad idea.

Original Bey's avatarOriginal Bey

Yeah he didn't want to ruin his engagement and subsequent marriage to his lovely bride. JAIL would do that to a romance!

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

I wonder if the Ashkars are any relation to the Patel clan?

OldSchoolPa's avatarOldSchoolPa

Ronnie316 was the first one in LP to say, "I smell a rat" and "sounds fishy to me". Congrats NY Lottery for catching another fraudulent claim and returning the winnings to the rightful lucky lottery player. I think that winner would be due interest since they should be able to determine the date he/she received the bogus $4,000 payout from the brothers.

li hate scratchoffs...for me, they have been nothing but worthless pieces of hard card paper.  Got my eye on that $5,000 per Week For Life but I feel better about taking the astronomical odds playing the online games since I don't have to be in the right store at the right time to purchase the right scratch-off game...just let my 6 numbers match and I AM RICH B-YATCH!

Win$500Quick's avatarWin$500Quick

If it doesn't makke sense, It's not true.

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by OldSchoolPa on Nov 14, 2012

Ronnie316 was the first one in LP to say, "I smell a rat" and "sounds fishy to me". Congrats NY Lottery for catching another fraudulent claim and returning the winnings to the rightful lucky lottery player. I think that winner would be due interest since they should be able to determine the date he/she received the bogus $4,000 payout from the brothers.

li hate scratchoffs...for me, they have been nothing but worthless pieces of hard card paper.  Got my eye on that $5,000 per Week For Life but I feel better about taking the astronomical odds playing the online games since I don't have to be in the right store at the right time to purchase the right scratch-off game...just let my 6 numbers match and I AM RICH B-YATCH!

Ronnie316 was right on the money!  Hurray!

Next time I suspect rats are infesting my home, I will be calling him first.  Beaver

Nikkicute's avatarNikkicute

Quote: Originally posted by OldSchoolPa on Nov 14, 2012

Ronnie316 was the first one in LP to say, "I smell a rat" and "sounds fishy to me". Congrats NY Lottery for catching another fraudulent claim and returning the winnings to the rightful lucky lottery player. I think that winner would be due interest since they should be able to determine the date he/she received the bogus $4,000 payout from the brothers.

li hate scratchoffs...for me, they have been nothing but worthless pieces of hard card paper.  Got my eye on that $5,000 per Week For Life but I feel better about taking the astronomical odds playing the online games since I don't have to be in the right store at the right time to purchase the right scratch-off game...just let my 6 numbers match and I AM RICH B-YATCH!

Good shout out to Ronnie316!!!!

The brothers said they'd be willing to take less money to avoid a news conference!

Seriously? Who does that?


As many members here on L.P. worried about remaining anonymous, would you take LESS MONEY

just so your name would not get out there? I don't think so!!!! I'd ALL my money and forget about

my name in the press!!  Deal with it!!

Marconis's avatarMarconis

Reading this pissed me off. Poor guy, but at least now he can have some peace of mind. I hope jail goes terribly for them.

magic 007

Like i said back then " Ticket no good, i throw away for you " and i was castigated by factorem for being a "racist" ok Mr Factorem , where are you now, show your face. I rest my case......

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by magic 007 on Nov 14, 2012

Like i said back then " Ticket no good, i throw away for you " and i was castigated by factorem for being a "racist" ok Mr Factorem , where are you now, show your face. I rest my case......

Good point magic 007, we have all had to deal with money grubbing dishonest shopkeepers at some time.

dallascowboyfan's avatardallascowboyfan

Put them away for a long time sorry SOB.........Glad the real winner will receive his winnings.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

Ronnie316 was right on the money!  Hurray!

Next time I suspect rats are infesting my home, I will be calling him first.  Beaver

Perhaps I should open shop as "Ronnie PI" and your rats will be my first customers mcginnin56What?

petergrfn

Quote: Originally posted by Marconis on Nov 14, 2012

Reading this pissed me off. Poor guy, but at least now he can have some peace of mind. I hope jail goes terribly for them.

As a warning to any other Gas Station Clerks who decide to rip off customers.....If I was the true winner of the $5 Million I might "Donate" a few hundred bucks to a couple of inmates canteen accounts anonymously and make sure the brothers get the "Extra" Treatment in Prison!  LOL   Bash      On the other hand they will probably lose their store and spend many years in prison so they will be far worse off than if they had just thrown the ticket away.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Nikkicute on Nov 14, 2012

Good shout out to Ronnie316!!!!

The brothers said they'd be willing to take less money to avoid a news conference!

Seriously? Who does that?


As many members here on L.P. worried about remaining anonymous, would you take LESS MONEY

just so your name would not get out there? I don't think so!!!! I'd ALL my money and forget about

my name in the press!!  Deal with it!!

Thanks Nikkicute.

I think your right....

if they had just walked in and picked up the check no one would have been the wiser.....

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by petergrfn on Nov 14, 2012

As a warning to any other Gas Station Clerks who decide to rip off customers.....If I was the true winner of the $5 Million I might "Donate" a few hundred bucks to a couple of inmates canteen accounts anonymously and make sure the brothers get the "Extra" Treatment in Prison!  LOL   Bash      On the other hand they will probably lose their store and spend many years in prison so they will be far worse off than if they had just thrown the ticket away.

It was the parents store, so likely no one will lose anything....

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by petergrfn on Nov 14, 2012

As a warning to any other Gas Station Clerks who decide to rip off customers.....If I was the true winner of the $5 Million I might "Donate" a few hundred bucks to a couple of inmates canteen accounts anonymously and make sure the brothers get the "Extra" Treatment in Prison!  LOL   Bash      On the other hand they will probably lose their store and spend many years in prison so they will be far worse off than if they had just thrown the ticket away.

I would be willing to bet those boys don't have to do ANY time in jail for their offences....

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Win$500Quick on Nov 14, 2012

If it doesn't makke sense, It's not true.

I remember the original story saying there was no wrong doing and the winnings were paid.... What?

helpmewin's avatarhelpmewin

Quote: Originally posted by Jill34786 on Nov 14, 2012

Just unbelievable! their entire story was skeptical from the start.

I Agree!    Cinderella story Yes Nod

Ronnie316

On a positive note...... at least the investigators had some work to do for a few months......What?

Original Bey's avatarOriginal Bey

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

I would be willing to bet those boys don't have to do ANY time in jail for their offences....

I Agree! 1st offence, monies given to the rightful winner. At best they'll do 6 months community service recycling scratch offs for 2nd chance drawings

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Original Bey on Nov 14, 2012

I Agree! 1st offence, monies given to the rightful winner. At best they'll do 6 months community service recycling scratch offs for 2nd chance drawings

Good point, and what a great service to the community getting rid of all those "losing" tickets... lol.

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

I would be willing to bet those boys don't have to do ANY time in jail for their offences....

On the other hand,they may run into a judge who is tough on crime and end up in prison for a whole lot of years.At least thats what I hope happens!

RedStang's avatarRedStang

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

I would be willing to bet those boys don't have to do ANY time in jail for their offences....

Andy faces 25 and his brother faces 15. I have a feeling the lotto will try to make an example of them if the law allows. Hard to believe he's a manager at a Toyota dealership.

bigboy90000

I hope they like getting booty raped .

petergrfn

Quote: Originally posted by Original Bey on Nov 14, 2012

I Agree! 1st offence, monies given to the rightful winner. At best they'll do 6 months community service recycling scratch offs for 2nd chance drawings

It doesn't matter if the rightful winner gets the money.  The Brothers still committed the crimes!  They made a scheme to defraud the lottery winner. They then turned in the ticket to the lottery commission.  That makes it Criminal Possesion.  Even if this is their first offense they CAN NOT prove that the ticket was worth LESS than $1 Million that makes it First Degree Grand Larceny!  That's Mandatory Min. sentencing territory.    They will do a few years IF they are lucky and make a plea.  Any Lawyer worth his salt's first word to these two should be you absolutely want to AVOID a Jury Trial.....

Original Bey's avatarOriginal Bey

Quote: Originally posted by petergrfn on Nov 14, 2012

It doesn't matter if the rightful winner gets the money.  The Brothers still committed the crimes!  They made a scheme to defraud the lottery winner. They then turned in the ticket to the lottery commission.  That makes it Criminal Possesion.  Even if this is their first offense they CAN NOT prove that the ticket was worth LESS than $1 Million that makes it First Degree Grand Larceny!  That's Mandatory Min. sentencing territory.    They will do a few years IF they are lucky and make a plea.  Any Lawyer worth his salt's first word to these two should be you absolutely want to AVOID a Jury Trial.....

Time will tell. I'm sure the 3rd segment of this fiasco will be published on LP in short order.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by bigboy90000 on Nov 14, 2012

I hope they like getting booty raped .

That would be a rather stiff penalty.... don't you think?? What?

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Cletu$2 on Nov 14, 2012

On the other hand,they may run into a judge who is tough on crime and end up in prison for a whole lot of years.At least thats what I hope happens!

As our country progresses we should become more sensitive of those accused of a crime........ 

The offence in question may not even be a criminal offence, and therefore NOT a crime AT ALL.

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

As our country progresses we should become more sensitive of those accused of a crime........ 

The offence in question may not even be a criminal offence, and therefore NOT a crime AT ALL.

Sounds like your going soft, what happened to your erection for crime.  What?

Nikkicute's avatarNikkicute

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

Sounds like your going soft, what happened to your erection for crime.  What?

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Green laughoh my goodness!

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

Sounds like your going soft, what happened to your erection for crime.  What?

Criminals are human, and have rights.......Yes Nod

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

Sounds like your going soft, what happened to your erection for crime.  What?

I think that's LottoBoners dept. You may want to check with him on that.....  Wink

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Criminals are human, and have rights.......Yes Nod

How silly of me.....I must have missed that class in college.  Big Grin

jeffrey's avatarjeffrey

remember this, the quikimart and the habib who works there is not your friend.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

How silly of me.....I must have missed that class in college.  Big Grin

Ahhh yes, your catching on my friend. There are so many wonderful things you can learn in a class room that are not at all dependent or even relevant to what is happening in the real world......... 

Its a kind of Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy role playing situation...... If you will.... 

TwitchBlue Thinking

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by jeffrey on Nov 14, 2012

remember this, the quikimart and the habib who works there is not your friend.

In fact, quite the opposite I think........

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by jeffrey on Nov 14, 2012

remember this, the quikimart and the habib who works there is not your friend.

We have no friends at any lottery store.

It is us against them.  Boxing

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Ahhh yes, your catching on my friend. There are so many wonderful things you can learn in a class room that are not at all dependent or even relevant to what is happening in the real world......... 

Its a kind of Dungeons and Dragons, fantasy role playing situation...... If you will.... 

TwitchBlue Thinking

I understand now. Until the suspected criminals are prosecuted, they are our friends and countrymen.  Love

The should be allowed into our homes as guests of honor.  Patriot

surimaribo24's avatarsurimaribo24

akshars joining the patels hope they get their asses drilled in jail .

petergrfn

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Criminals are human, and have rights.......Yes Nod

Obviously.  The fact that the two brothers haven't been dragged into the town square and hung directly after finding out the stole the ticket shows they have their rights.  But while the "Accussed" have their rights so does the victim.  Their is FAR MORE evidence of these two brothers guilt than innocence at this point but they still have the right to trial by jury.  I don't think being the avid lottery player I am I could be an impartial juror knowing what I know about clerks taking peoples tickets.  Even if they are convicted though they will recieve a far more equitable sentence then they would in many 3rd world countries where stealing over $1 Million dollars from somone else could result in death or having your hands chopped off.    Still they are innocent until proven guilty.

So I'm sure when they show up to court looking like choir boys and have their Mom telling the Judge that they were such Good Boys who give to orphans and such they could still be found Not Guilty.   We Will See.....

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by surimaribo24 on Nov 14, 2012

akshars joining the patels hope they get their asses drilled in jail .

I've got some leftover Vaseline I could spare, if it would make the drilling job go a little smoother.  Big Grin Santa

helpmewin's avatarhelpmewin

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

Sounds like your going soft, what happened to your erection for crime.  What?

thats a sore subject with ronnie Yes Nod

helpmewin's avatarhelpmewin

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

We have no friends at any lottery store.

It is us against them.  Boxing

Thumbs UpI Agree!

Jill34786's avatarJill34786

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

I remember the original story saying there was no wrong doing and the winnings were paid.... What?

I Agree! The brothers turned the ticket in back in March and apparently the NY Lottery did their 6-7 month investigation claiming EVERYTHING checked out before announcing the winner in October. I have no idea why they didn't publicize this back in March in order to allow the news media to print it? The true winner would have claimed his winnings that much sooner.

IPlayWeekly's avatarIPlayWeekly

Hope they get life

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by helpmewin on Nov 14, 2012

thats a sore subject with ronnie Yes Nod

There are pills that will address that problem.

If the desired effects should last more than six hours however, please contact your doctor immediately. Or admit yourself into your hospital ER.  Thumbs Up

VenomV12

Ha Ha, I and others called it from the beginning. I can't believe some of the imbeciles on here that actually thought that this was legitimate and that someone would wait 6 years to claim a $5 million ticket. 

Stay in school please and get an education. 

savagegoose's avatarsavagegoose

heres a tip, of you are confused by the number of zeros on your ticket; take it to the local  lotto HQ. not your local min wage worker.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by VenomV12 on Nov 14, 2012

Ha Ha, I and others called it from the beginning. I can't believe some of the imbeciles on here that actually thought that this was legitimate and that someone would wait 6 years to claim a $5 million ticket. 

Stay in school please and get an education. 

I Agree! This was an easy call........

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Jill34786 on Nov 14, 2012

I Agree! The brothers turned the ticket in back in March and apparently the NY Lottery did their 6-7 month investigation claiming EVERYTHING checked out before announcing the winner in October. I have no idea why they didn't publicize this back in March in order to allow the news media to print it? The true winner would have claimed his winnings that much sooner.

Perhaps the investigators being the government workers that they are, needed an extra 6 months of work?

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by VenomV12 on Nov 14, 2012

Ha Ha, I and others called it from the beginning. I can't believe some of the imbeciles on here that actually thought that this was legitimate and that someone would wait 6 years to claim a $5 million ticket. 

Stay in school please and get an education. 

Imagine 6 years of trying to come up with something to say at Lottery office. And when the day finally comes all you have to say is....  "You can keep some of the money if you don't tell anyone that I won this"......

What baffoons.........EvilPonder

Candy-S

How can this be ... waiting 6 years to claim a lottery prize?  I thought New York lottery prizes had to be claimed within ONE year of the game.   Most states have 6 months time limit to claim a prize.(a few have one year limit)    If you don't submit the winning ticket in that time frame ... you get NOTHING.

Ronnie316

If they had a game plan for ripping someone off, why did thet say it was a $5000. winner and not just give them $500. Or even $50.????

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

Quote: Originally posted by Candy-S on Nov 14, 2012

How can this be ... waiting 6 years to claim a lottery prize?  I thought New York lottery prizes had to be claimed within ONE year of the game.   Most states have 6 months time limit to claim a prize.(a few have one year limit)    If you don't submit the winning ticket in that time frame ... you get NOTHING.

This was explained in the original story.The game had so many losing tickets that it took the entire 6 years to sell all of the tickets.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Candy-S on Nov 14, 2012

How can this be ... waiting 6 years to claim a lottery prize?  I thought New York lottery prizes had to be claimed within ONE year of the game.   Most states have 6 months time limit to claim a prize.(a few have one year limit)    If you don't submit the winning ticket in that time frame ... you get NOTHING.

The game went on and on because of the outstanding winning ticket........

and the 6 month deadline doest start til THE END OF THE GAME.............

No telling how much extra cash the state of NY raked in because of the missing ticket.....

Of course the state knew it had been sold but kept selling worthless tickets to the public.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Cletu$2 on Nov 14, 2012

This was explained in the original story.The game had so many losing tickets that it took the entire 6 years to sell all of the tickets.

Games end when the big WINNERS are all gone.... NOT the losers......

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Games end when the big WINNERS are all gone.... NOT the losers......

Some states sell ALL of the tickets,not just the winning tickets,to maximize profits,hence my answer.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Cletu$2 on Nov 14, 2012

Some states sell ALL of the tickets,not just the winning tickets,to maximize profits,hence my answer.

That could be true but once all the published winners are gone most people will quit the game.

Original Bey's avatarOriginal Bey

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

If they had a game plan for ripping someone off, why did thet say it was a $5000. winner and not just give them $500. Or even $50.????

Guilty consciousness. They had to sell a lie that would be believable in their own minds and hopefully to their mark. They knew it was $5m so to them it was a far stretch to offer the customer a mere 500 or 50 dollars.

 

I agree with you that they didnt graduate from an Ivy League Scam Institution as Patel University so they didn't have a solid plan in place should that lucky day ever come and it did.

Ronnie316

Perhaps one of the reasons they (the lottery) waited an extra 6 months to be more investigation is so that people in NY would forget how long the game went on with ONE outstanding big ticket........

Some of the LP members here have complained about playing that game based on ONE outstanding big winning ticket, so maybe some NY'ers here can tell us how long it went on that way??

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Original Bey on Nov 14, 2012

Guilty consciousness. They had to sell a lie that would be believable in their own minds and hopefully to their mark. They knew it was $5m so to them it was a far stretch to offer the customer a mere 500 or 50 dollars.

 

I agree with you that they didnt graduate from an Ivy League Scam Institution as Patel University so they didn't have a solid plan in place should that lucky day ever come and it did.

Thats a good one... lol. lol. lol. "Lets tell a lie that WE would believe"..... lol. lol.

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

That could be true but once all the published winners are gone most people will quit the game.

I agree.But they still sell the tickets because not everyone pays attention,Iowa once had a lottery ticket that sold all of the major prize tickets within a couple of months and took a bath on profits because they pulled the game.Now Iowa has a disclaimer on their scratch off tickets that allows them to continue selling them if the secnd & third place prizes are significant enough to draw the interest of the buying public.Thats why I don't buy scratchers in Iowa.I feel that its false advertisement to sell a ticket that promises a $50,000 prize when all the $50,000 prizes have already been won,

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Original Bey on Nov 14, 2012

Guilty consciousness. They had to sell a lie that would be believable in their own minds and hopefully to their mark. They knew it was $5m so to them it was a far stretch to offer the customer a mere 500 or 50 dollars.

 

I agree with you that they didnt graduate from an Ivy League Scam Institution as Patel University so they didn't have a solid plan in place should that lucky day ever come and it did.

Is it possible the NY lottery had the same type of guilty consciousness, and felt compelled to pay off the boys and than later changed their minds and published stories about the incident??

GiveFive's avatarGiveFive

This whole thing was fishy from the get-go, and many who post here thought something was wrong when the first news article appeared.

Dont you think The NYS Lottery thought something was very wrong too?  Give them some credit!  They werent born yesterday, they've seen all the scams, and they took the best steps they could to get to the real truth.  Kudo's to them.

The Lottery has an obligation to protect the lottery playing public from scam artists, and they take that responsibility seriously.  If they didn't, the lottery playing public would lose faith/confidence in them, and most likely reduce the amount of money they spend playing.  That spells DISASTER for any state's lottery, and it's something no state can afford to let happen.

Just because we cant see what their doing to protect us, does not mean they're sitting idly by and doing nothing.

Candy-S

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

The game went on and on because of the outstanding winning ticket........

and the 6 month deadline doest start til THE END OF THE GAME.............

No telling how much extra cash the state of NY raked in because of the missing ticket.....

Of course the state knew it had been sold but kept selling worthless tickets to the public.

So, this indefinate game was a SCAM by the State of New York.  Getting people to buy worthless tickets.  And you say other states do this too.  Most people would go to jail for lottery fraud.  But the STATE is not  a person.   I will never buy a scratch off ticket.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by GiveFive on Nov 14, 2012

This whole thing was fishy from the get-go, and many who post here thought something was wrong when the first news article appeared.

Dont you think The NYS Lottery thought something was very wrong too?  Give them some credit!  They werent born yesterday, they've seen all the scams, and they took the best steps they could to get to the real truth.  Kudo's to them.

The Lottery has an obligation to protect the lottery playing public from scam artists, and they take that responsibility seriously.  If they didn't, the lottery playing public would lose faith/confidence in them, and most likely reduce the amount of money they spend playing.  That spells DISASTER for any state's lottery, and it's something no state can afford to let happen.

Just because we cant see what their doing to protect us, does not mean they're sitting idly by and doing nothing.

Oh that's right, the state would NEVER take advantage of the public in ANY way, EVER..... What?

GiveFive's avatarGiveFive

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Oh that's right, the state would NEVER take advantage of the public in ANY way, EVER..... What?

I didnt say that.

I'm just pointing out that The State of New York had better be careful with the lottery.  They need the income very badly...

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Candy-S on Nov 14, 2012

So, this indefinate game was a SCAM by the State of New York.  Getting people to buy worthless tickets.  And you say other states do this too.  Most people would go to jail for lottery fraud.  But the STATE is not  a person.   I will never buy a scratch off ticket.

Im really not saying "it was" as I dont know, but I do think someone should investigate the investigators What?

Ronnie316

Perhaps a DEPT. OF INVESTIGATON OF INVESTIGATION...... What?

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

Quote: Originally posted by Candy-S on Nov 14, 2012

So, this indefinate game was a SCAM by the State of New York.  Getting people to buy worthless tickets.  And you say other states do this too.  Most people would go to jail for lottery fraud.  But the STATE is not  a person.   I will never buy a scratch off ticket.

If there was at least one outstanding $5,00,000,000 ticket,it WAS NOT a scam.If ALL of the $5,000,000,000 tickets were already sold and they continued to sell tickets,THEN it would be a scam.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Cletu$2 on Nov 14, 2012

If there was at least one outstanding $5,00,000,000 ticket,it WAS NOT a scam.If ALL of the $5,000,000,000 tickets were already sold and they continued to sell tickets,THEN it would be a scam.

We now know that one was SOLD, just not CLAIMED.........

Candy-S

Quote: Originally posted by Cletu$2 on Nov 14, 2012

If there was at least one outstanding $5,00,000,000 ticket,it WAS NOT a scam.If ALL of the $5,000,000,000 tickets were already sold and they continued to sell tickets,THEN it would be a scam.

I stand corrected!  Thank you for the information. 

I really did not want to lose my faith in the state of New York because I really love to visit the place.

GiveFive's avatarGiveFive

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Oh that's right, the state would NEVER take advantage of the public in ANY way, EVER..... What?

FWIW...

There's many reason not to buy scratch-off's. Some are more subtle than others.

A while back an LP  member posted that he found out through the NY State Freedom of Informtion Act that when lottery retailers go out of business they must return both opened and un-opened packs of scratch-off's to the state.  He learned the un-opened packs were sent back out to lottery retailers, but the opened packs were destroyed. Thus possibly destroying a top prize winning ticket.

The NYS Lottery obviously knew that was a possibility, but they wouldnt divulge it until forced to thru the NYSFOI act.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Candy-S on Nov 14, 2012

I stand corrected!  Thank you for the information. 

I really did not want to lose my faith in the state of New York because I really love to visit the place.

Like I said, the ticket had been SOLD...... just not cashed. So the unsuspecting public THOUGHT it was available to be won, when in reality the lottery knew it was either lost or stolen for the whole 6 years.

Nikkicute's avatarNikkicute

"Authorities knew about the true winner, who will be named after he gets his affairs

in order, from a Syracuse police officer who picked up the information about him on

the streets".

 

The street? lol That soooo New York!!!!

No wonder I hear the theme music from Law & Oder.

Original Bey's avatarOriginal Bey

Quote: Originally posted by Nikkicute on Nov 14, 2012

"Authorities knew about the true winner, who will be named after he gets his affairs

in order, from a Syracuse police officer who picked up the information about him on

the streets".

 

The street? lol That soooo New York!!!!

No wonder I hear the theme music from Law & Oder.

Lol!

I'm here wondering what PROOF did the actual winner present or the NYS lottery uncover during its investigation that validated the rightful claim. Tapes would be destroyed at the time the brothers made their claim and the real winner never endorsed the ticket. Beyond that it's a case of He Said/She Said.

 

Is there something I am missing here?

haymaker's avatarhaymaker

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

It was the parents store, so likely no one will lose anything....

won't the parents store lose the lottery franchise ?

Nikkicute's avatarNikkicute

Quote: Originally posted by Original Bey on Nov 14, 2012

Lol!

I'm here wondering what PROOF did the actual winner present or the NYS lottery uncover during its investigation that validated the rightful claim. Tapes would be destroyed at the time the brothers made their claim and the real winner never endorsed the ticket. Beyond that it's a case of He Said/She Said.

 

Is there something I am missing here?

Well something in that man's story rings true, I'm sure they investigated it.

Maybe he has bank statements stating a deposit of $4,000 was made at the time he brought in the

winning ticket, who knows.

 

So far I have not heard of anyone else comming forward and calling him a liar saying it's their

ticket and not his. That was 6 years ago, I'm so glad he remembered!!

surimaribo24's avatarsurimaribo24

Quote: Originally posted by mcginnin56 on Nov 14, 2012

I've got some leftover Vaseline I could spare, if it would make the drilling job go a little smoother.  Big Grin Santa

ROFL

GiveFive's avatarGiveFive

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Like I said, the ticket had been SOLD...... just not cashed. So the unsuspecting public THOUGHT it was available to be won, when in reality the lottery knew it was either lost or stolen for the whole 6 years.

You're right, the unsuspecting public thought it was available to be won. 

That said, I've read that The NYS Lottery claims they do not know when a top prize winning ticket is SOLD.  Which I tend to believe, because someone could buy a top prize winner, but not immediately scratch it.  Suppose they didnt scratch it right away, and put it in the glove compartment of their car and forgot about it.  There's no telling how long it might remain in there.... and there'd be no way for The State of New York to know what happened to it. 

The State could certainly suspect it was lost or stolen, but they cant know for a fact what actually happened to it.  To my mind, the State should not be allowed to indefinitely keep the game going.  I dont know if there is in fact a date that's established as to when the game would be cancelled or not, but if a sole top prize ticket goes unclaimed for a certain amount of time, then the game should be ended. The tough part would be determining how long that time period would be.

VenomV12

My state has a website that shows the prizes left on every scratch-off ticket that is for sale and it is updated daily so you know what to buy and what not to buy. Some of the retailers even print it out and leave it by the counter so people can see for themselves which is nice. 

It should be mandatory though that every retailer has a system that has a screen that shows how much you won and you should also have to hand back the ticket and a slip stating how much it has won. 

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by VenomV12 on Nov 14, 2012

My state has a website that shows the prizes left on every scratch-off ticket that is for sale and it is updated daily so you know what to buy and what not to buy. Some of the retailers even print it out and leave it by the counter so people can see for themselves which is nice. 

It should be mandatory though that every retailer has a system that has a screen that shows how much you won and you should also have to hand back the ticket and a slip stating how much it has won. 

The machines here print out a receipt, but it always get thrown in the trash unless I ask for it.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by GiveFive on Nov 14, 2012

You're right, the unsuspecting public thought it was available to be won. 

That said, I've read that The NYS Lottery claims they do not know when a top prize winning ticket is SOLD.  Which I tend to believe, because someone could buy a top prize winner, but not immediately scratch it.  Suppose they didnt scratch it right away, and put it in the glove compartment of their car and forgot about it.  There's no telling how long it might remain in there.... and there'd be no way for The State of New York to know what happened to it. 

The State could certainly suspect it was lost or stolen, but they cant know for a fact what actually happened to it.  To my mind, the State should not be allowed to indefinitely keep the game going.  I dont know if there is in fact a date that's established as to when the game would be cancelled or not, but if a sole top prize ticket goes unclaimed for a certain amount of time, then the game should be ended. The tough part would be determining how long that time period would be.

The lottery knows what store had the winner and when. They also know how long it takes to use up that inventory. So perhaps a "lost ticket alert" could have been disseminated???

Cletu$2's avatarCletu$2

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

The lottery knows what store had the winner and when. They also know how long it takes to use up that inventory. So perhaps a "lost ticket alert" could have been disseminated???

Are you saying that the lottery knew this before the winning ticket was sodl or after the winning ticket was turned in?

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Cletu$2 on Nov 14, 2012

Are you saying that the lottery knew this before the winning ticket was sodl or after the winning ticket was turned in?

They have an inventory of every ticketed printed, whats on it and where it goes. I would think the invetory control is very strict.

HaveABall's avatarHaveABall

Todd, would you be able to locate and load a copy of this winning scratch off ticket.  It would be great for us LotteryPost members to peruse it and see if somewhere shows $5000, or something to that confusing effect.

Fellow LP members, isn't it interesting that several lottery winning ticket holding folks continue to think it's okay to not pay required "Federal and State Income Taxes," on winnings, and therefore 'trade' to accept lesser payouts from their local, fellow law breakers?  Aren't both of these types of residents (not necessarily legal, bonafide citizens) guilty of major crimes?  Shouldn't BOTH larcenous parties be prosecuted with a couple years of community service (why should we mainly financially struggling income tax payers pay $50K each prisoner, annually to provide them daily: room, entertainment, exercise, meals, snacks, and courses?), monies returned to the lottery headquarters, and re-distributed via multiple yearly "2nd Chance Drawings" from submitted losing tickets of same online or scratch-off game?

BS

HaveABall's avatarHaveABall

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

They have an inventory of every ticketed printed, whats on it and where it goes. I would think the invetory control is very strict.

Do these scratch-off tickets get scanned upon sale or what? 

Because if yes, then the Lottery Headquarters knows IMMEDIATELY by the sold ticket's scanned "bar code" that one of their winning tickets has been sold and at which lottery retailer (thus, in all fairness the lottery headquarters should announce and post end of the opportunity for first place prize wins and give notice that game tickets for lesser 2nd place prizes, etc. are only available for 30 more days (if still also applicable).  This should be performed by the State's Lottery Headquarters as soon as all of their game's first place tickets have been "SOLD" (not "claimed," via the official Lottery Headquarters' Claim Form)!

Confused

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by HaveABall on Nov 14, 2012

Do these scratch-off tickets get scanned upon sale or what? 

Because if yes, then the Lottery Headquarters knows IMMEDIATELY by the sold ticket's scanned "bar code" that one of their winning tickets has been sold and at which lottery retailer (thus, in all fairness the lottery headquarters should announce and post end of the opportunity for first place prize wins and give notice that game tickets for lesser 2nd place prizes, etc. are only available for 30 more days (if still also applicable).  This should be performed by the State's Lottery Headquarters as soon as all of their game's first place tickets have been "SOLD" (not "claimed," via the official Lottery Headquarters' Claim Form)!

Confused

Confused

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by HaveABall on Nov 14, 2012

Todd, would you be able to locate and load a copy of this winning scratch off ticket.  It would be great for us LotteryPost members to peruse it and see if somewhere shows $5000, or something to that confusing effect.

Fellow LP members, isn't it interesting that several lottery winning ticket holding folks continue to think it's okay to not pay required "Federal and State Income Taxes," on winnings, and therefore 'trade' to accept lesser payouts from their local, fellow law breakers?  Aren't both of these types of residents (not necessarily legal, bonafide citizens) guilty of major crimes?  Shouldn't BOTH larcenous parties be prosecuted with a couple years of community service (why should we mainly financially struggling income tax payers pay $50K each prisoner, annually to provide them daily: room, entertainment, exercise, meals, snacks, and courses?), monies returned to the lottery headquarters, and re-distributed via multiple yearly "2nd Chance Drawings" from submitted losing tickets of same online or scratch-off game?

BS

BS

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by HaveABall on Nov 14, 2012

Do these scratch-off tickets get scanned upon sale or what? 

Because if yes, then the Lottery Headquarters knows IMMEDIATELY by the sold ticket's scanned "bar code" that one of their winning tickets has been sold and at which lottery retailer (thus, in all fairness the lottery headquarters should announce and post end of the opportunity for first place prize wins and give notice that game tickets for lesser 2nd place prizes, etc. are only available for 30 more days (if still also applicable).  This should be performed by the State's Lottery Headquarters as soon as all of their game's first place tickets have been "SOLD" (not "claimed," via the official Lottery Headquarters' Claim Form)!

Confused

I Agree!

RJOh's avatarRJOh

Quote: Originally posted by HaveABall on Nov 14, 2012

Do these scratch-off tickets get scanned upon sale or what? 

Because if yes, then the Lottery Headquarters knows IMMEDIATELY by the sold ticket's scanned "bar code" that one of their winning tickets has been sold and at which lottery retailer (thus, in all fairness the lottery headquarters should announce and post end of the opportunity for first place prize wins and give notice that game tickets for lesser 2nd place prizes, etc. are only available for 30 more days (if still also applicable).  This should be performed by the State's Lottery Headquarters as soon as all of their game's first place tickets have been "SOLD" (not "claimed," via the official Lottery Headquarters' Claim Form)!

Confused

You assume the people running lotteries do thing better than the aveage person in this country who think doing things half a** is good enough.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by RJOh on Nov 14, 2012

You assume the people running lotteries do thing better than the aveage person in this country who think doing things half a** is good enough.

True.......

The only time the lottery KNOWS a winner is when it walks though the door and say, "Im a winner"

OldSchoolPa's avatarOldSchoolPa

Quote: Originally posted by bigboy90000 on Nov 14, 2012

I hope they like getting booty raped .

Or you could say that you hope they get "shawshanked"!

Artist77's avatarArtist77

I think a lot of us knew this was a scam...although I thought they had killed the true winner.  I wonder what they would have done if the true winner had said, "no thanks, I want to show the ticket to my spouse", and left with the scratch off ticket?

savagegoose's avatarsavagegoose

so if i decide to forge  winning scratch tickets, i can sell them to the local patels for $5k, just  pretend to be dumb?

KY Floyd's avatarKY Floyd

Letting them pay you $4 or $5 grand for a fake ticket that's supposedly worth much more would be pretty amusing, since if they go to the police they have to admit that they were trying to steal far more from you than you stole from them. Of course they could always just kill you or break your legs instead.

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by Artist77 on Nov 14, 2012

I think a lot of us knew this was a scam...although I thought they had killed the true winner.  I wonder what they would have done if the true winner had said, "no thanks, I want to show the ticket to my spouse", and left with the scratch off ticket?

 They probably would have tried to pull the old switcheroo, and substitute their winning ticket for another similar losing ticket, hoping they

wouldn't notice until they left the store.

 

With that amount of greed they had, I can't imagine they would have just let the customer walk out with "their" $5 million ticket.

HaveABall's avatarHaveABall

Quote: Originally posted by RJOh on Nov 14, 2012

You assume the people running lotteries do thing better than the aveage person in this country who think doing things half a** is good enough.

RJOh, no assuming has occurred.  My question hasn't been answered by a person in the know yet.  Perhaps it will be later today or tomorrow though ... I'll keep looking/lurking in.

Skeptical

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by HaveABall on Nov 14, 2012

RJOh, no assuming has occurred.  My question hasn't been answered by a person in the know yet.  Perhaps it will be later today or tomorrow though ... I'll keep looking/lurking in.

Skeptical

I predict that you WONT get a photo of the winning ticket posted on LP.......

HaveABall's avatarHaveABall

Quote: Originally posted by savagegoose on Nov 14, 2012

so if i decide to forge  winning scratch tickets, i can sell them to the local patels for $5k, just  pretend to be dumb?

savagegoose, your $5K target fee might not interest any larcenous lottery retailers or their employees.  As, according to this article, the "going rate" was the far lesser $4K 6.7 years ago.  The rate may not have increased since then in this, ever continued, USA Greater Depression and high inflation time period.

Troll

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by HaveABall on Nov 14, 2012

savagegoose, your $5K target fee might not interest any larcenous lottery retailers or their employees.  As, according to this article, the "going rate" was the far lesser $4K 6.7 years ago.  The rate may not have increased since then in this, ever continued, USA Greater Depression and high inflation time period.

Troll

Very well said, HaveABallConehead

Factorem's avatarFactorem

Quote: Originally posted by magic 007 on Nov 14, 2012

Like i said back then " Ticket no good, i throw away for you " and i was castigated by factorem for being a "racist" ok Mr Factorem , where are you now, show your face. I rest my case......

I am right here in full face!.

 

Your remark ramains a racist statement, as a person's knowledge of English does not imply criminal bahavior capabilities. The charges against these brothers is about theft, and are independent of their language skills.

In this case as it turns out, there was no offer to throw away a ticket, or a claim that it was altogether no good. 

If you go back and read my posts back in October, you will be able to confirm that I wrote vociferiously against what these two brothers did, and serioudsly got on the case of Syracuse NY for complicity in paying out

Mcginnin56 wrote back to me in words "Sour grapes", while his tag-team partner in lottery post war mongering, ronnie316 told me to get over it, as the NY lottery has made its decision.

Well, you can read foryourself as it turned out, I was not alone in my position and today's story remains a vindication that the position and views that I had espoused and written about, in October on this matter was positively correct.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Factorem on Nov 14, 2012

I am right here in full face!.

 

Your remark ramains a racist statement, as a person's knowledge of English does not imply criminal bahavior capabilities. The charges against these brothers is about theft, and are independent of their language skills.

In this case as it turns out, there was no offer to throw away a ticket, or a claim that it was altogether no good. 

If you go back and read my posts back in October, you will be able to confirm that I wrote vociferiously against what these two brothers did, and serioudsly got on the case of Syracuse NY for complicity in paying out

Mcginnin56 wrote back to me in words "Sour grapes", while his tag-team partner in lottery post war mongering, ronnie316 told me to get over it, as the NY lottery has made its decision.

Well, you can read foryourself as it turned out, I was not alone in my position and today's story remains a vindication that the position and views that I had espoused and written about, in October on this matter was positively correct.

I Agree! Except for calling people racist.........

LottoBoner

I saw a guy doing the scratchie thing today.  Quite feverishly.  I was there to place my 363 str8.  He was sctratching all feverishly like a crack addict and then he took the scanner to the machine.  I was on the machine and double checking my free plays, as I was cleaning my room today and found six of them.  So I let the guy go in front of me.  The funny thing about scratch offs is there is a bar code on the front and on the back, and I never know which one to scan.

So the guy is scanning the front of his scratchie and the machine wont read it.  Before I can suggest to scan the other side he takes it to the clerk and asks "Can you check this for me"?

Temptation.

The real question is.  Are convenience store really so convenient?

People buying milk and cigarettes are inconvenient for lottery players. 

Not to mention QuickDraw.

I saw two separate players downing $100 in three separate consecutive draws.  I was in at the cutoff for my Jackpot game, and there he was with 20 cards at the counter.

Now if there was a line of people buying milk, then I can predict a small chance of that player climbing over the counter to get to the terminal to get his bet in on time. 

The atmosphere in a convenience store ( forgive me this word convienent is giving me trouble as for as spelling is concerned)

is frenetic at best when there are multiple lottery players in there. 

Online internet playing is the MOST CONVIENENT solution.  There should be choice.  Business is about choice.  I choose to not go into the vipers den.  I prefer lottery from the safety of my bed.

And all scratchie players must be wrangled and flogged.

Ronnie316

Thats why I use THIS............

haymaker's avatarhaymaker

This kind of stuff happens cause ppl. from other countries think americans are stupid.....did'nt work this time.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by haymaker on Nov 14, 2012

This kind of stuff happens cause ppl. from other countries think americans are stupid.....did'nt work this time.

Some cultures teach lying and cheating as an acceptable means of gaining an advantage , which comes in real handy upon entering America where we are taught to tell the truth and trust people.......

maringoman's avatarmaringoman

I am so glad that the con has been called out and the thieves arrested. Most of us knew it was a con from the get-go.

I suspect the trial will be long and messy unless they don't have money for a good lawyer. 

Good lawyers can convince jurors that up is really down Bang Head

Artist77's avatarArtist77

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Some cultures teach lying and cheating as an acceptable means of gaining an advantage , which comes in real handy upon entering America where we are taught to tell the truth and trust people.......

Ronnie hit the nail on the head here.  Americans are taught to trust people first (often over our own instincts) and it gets us in trouble sometimes.

Artist77's avatarArtist77

Quote: Originally posted by maringoman on Nov 14, 2012

I am so glad that the con has been called out and the thieves arrested. Most of us knew it was a con from the get-go.

I suspect the trial will be long and messy unless they don't have money for a good lawyer. 

Good lawyers can convince jurors that up is really down Bang Head

I don't expect much of a trial.  If their attorney is worth anything, she/he will plea for some lesser offense or term reduction since this is a losing case. And since a number (all perhaps?) of people on any potential jury (even if they don't play the lottery) have likely once have dreamed of winning a jackpot, if only for a second, and this realization that this crime could happen to them, will make this an easy conviction. Going to trial is too big a risk for these criminals.

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Artist77 on Nov 14, 2012

Ronnie hit the nail on the head here.  Americans are taught to trust people first (often over our own instincts) and it gets us in trouble sometimes.

Thanks Artist77, Ive learned the hard way more times than I can count yet still choose to trust. lol. lol.

Only as Mr. Reagan once said I choose to "Trust, but verify". lol. lol.

Artist77's avatarArtist77

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Thanks Artist77, Ive learned the hard way more times than I can count yet still choose to trust. lol. lol.

Only as Mr. Reagan once said I choose to "Trust, but verify". lol. lol.

Pres. Reagan was so right. I miss him!

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Ronnie316 on Nov 14, 2012

Thanks Artist77, Ive learned the hard way more times than I can count yet still choose to trust. lol. lol.

Only as Mr. Reagan once said I choose to "Trust, but verify". lol. lol.

Anytime I cash a ticket I tell the clerk (up front) that I want the receipt from the terminal and I watch them closely to make sure they don't switch anything.......

mcginnin56

Quote: Originally posted by Artist77 on Nov 14, 2012

I don't expect much of a trial.  If their attorney is worth anything, she/he will plea for some lesser offense or term reduction since this is a losing case. And since a number (all perhaps?) of people on any potential jury (even if they don't play the lottery) have likely once have dreamed of winning a jackpot, if only for a second, and this realization that this crime could happen to them, will make this an easy conviction. Going to trial is too big a risk for these criminals.

I Agree!

Ronnie316

Quote: Originally posted by Artist77 on Nov 14, 2012

Pres. Reagan was so right. I miss him!

Yes, me too.

Its a great and humble person who understand that government causes more problems than it solves.

Ronnie316

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