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Crazy Wombat

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December 3, 2014
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Apr 19, 2015, 12:45 pm

In just over an hour the numbers will be announced for the $150,000 Treasure Hunt jackpot ... it doesn't get that high very often ... maybe only two times a year. It is only a 30 number game so it gets hit often ... it can get to $100,000 several times during the year.

Well, I decided to get $100 in tickets ... I don't like the PA RNG QP system ... always seems to be low numbers printing ... 1s, 2s,3s,4s and 5s ... and then a lot of 2, 3s and 4s on one line of numbers.

I like higher starting numbers like 8, 12 or 14 ... a "good mix" of high and low numbers.

I have many tickets with three low numbers and a few with four numbers in a row and then these two tickets printed out back to back:

05 - 10 - 15- 20 - 25

07 - 08 - 09 -10 -11

I would never play those numbers but I did not have time to use the RNG on my computer and then transfer all the numbers to cards ... I've wanted to start a topic for some time about the PA RNG machines and what I've noticed in the last four years.

It seems to me that CA and NY must have good RNGs ... when there would be a large jackpot (MM or PB) ... there would be many five number winners for a million in both states and PA would only have one or no five number winners ... it's only my theory but the RNGs in CA and NY seem to be different than the ones in PA ... can they be programmed since they are probably all made by one or two companies, so they should all be the same, correct? PA has a large gambling public so I expected more five number winners, like CA and NY, for those very large jackpots.

I don't know ... just an observation in PA ... I wanted to do my own QPs but not enough time for the afternoon draw.

...
maringoman

Massachusetts
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April 14, 2006
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Apr 19, 2015, 1:36 pm

I hope you hit it and continue to play the lottery with their money. That's my dream unless I win so big a prize that I quit playing fo ever

I would have wheeled maybe half the lines and quick pick the rest.

Good luck

That money's gone fo ever
RJOh

100

mid-Ohio
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March 24, 2001
20,272 Posts
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Apr 19, 2015, 2:25 pm

It's easy to be Unhappy with Your QPs because the results are predictable and you need something to blame. You knew eventually the jackpot would roll to a $150K+ so you should have been prepared to pick numbers you would be happy with even if they didn't win much.

I've played games I seldom play when their jackpot are unusually high and although I've never won their jackpots I would always satisfied I gave it my best try. If buying $100 of QPs was your best effort, be satisfied with results no matter how it comes out. Good luck.

* you don't need to buy every combination, just the winning ones *
Crazy Wombat

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Apr 19, 2015, 2:56 pm

Quote: Originally posted by maringoman on Apr 19, 2015
I hope you hit it and continue to play the lottery with their money. That's my dream unless I win so big a prize that I quit playing fo ever

I would have wheeled maybe half the lines and quick pick the rest.

Good luck

Thanks for the "Good Luck" ... it was a disaster ... got about $14 back ... lowest number was 12 so most of the tickets were worthless from that standpoint ... also most (probably 75 - 80) were one number off for two and three numbers.

Would have one number and two or three one off ... missed with six tickets for $600 ... four numbers pay $100 and I had one number and three numbers one off on six tickets.

I wanted to wheel some numbers ... I have a list of the top 14 numbers in the last 50 draws ... I was searching around for a wheeling program that was free and that I could download to my computer for future use. Found one this morning that looks interesting but I need more time to work with it ... seemed a bit complicated so I just decided to go with the QPs ... I did go to three different lottery terminals for a "mix" of QPs. One terminal seemed to give me a good mix of high and low starting numbers and the other two seem to print mostly low starting numbers ... lots of 1s, 2s, 3, 4 and some 5s.

A few days ago when the jackpot was $65,000 ... building to today's $150,000 ... I played $3 ... two tickets were my numbers and I bought one QP where I chose the 07 as a starting number and the last four numbers were QPs ... the last four QP numbers came out and I won $100 ... 27 was the number I missed on, I wanted 07 but I also like 27 ... 27 came out today again.

So I was thinking of playing some scratch off tickets since I am not having much luck with terminal game tickets, I hate the instant tickets but I thought maybe a change of game play might be in order ... but late this morning decided to play for the $150,000 jackpot ... which by the way was hit with two tickets.

Easy come, easy go ... but it might have been different if a 1, 2 or 3 had come out ... probably would have picked up a few more dollars.

...
MillionsWanted

Norway
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December 10, 2004
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Apr 19, 2015, 2:57 pm

Pick your own numbers and be happy every time. Then you can only blame yourself.
maringoman

Massachusetts
United States
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Apr 19, 2015, 3:42 pm

$14 is an alright win. It could've been worse.

Treasure Hunt is a game I'd play often if I lived there

That money's gone fo ever
savagegoose

adelaide sa
Australia
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Apr 19, 2015, 4:40 pm

just remember, the chance either of those two listed QP's numbers came up was exactly the same as any other 2 picked numbers, its just as a pattern appeared it would be quite likely that more than you had played them. , you still had 100 chances. from your 100 picks. no amount of wheeling gives you better of hitting the jackpot.

but yeah as suggest get your wheels designed early, and if you decide on a budget to spend, start filling out cards i then weeks ahead of the draw you are eventually going to play.

good luck

" Still swinging, still missing "
2014 = -1016; 2015= -1409; 2016 = -1171; 2017 = -1257 ; 2018 = - 1380 = TOT = - 6233

keno historic = -2291 ; 2015= -603; 2016= -424; 2017 =-427; 2018= -223 TOT = -3968

:
Crazy Wombat

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Apr 19, 2015, 5:41 pm

Quote: Originally posted by savagegoose on Apr 19, 2015
just remember, the chance either of those two listed QP's numbers came up was exactly the same as any other 2 picked numbers, its just as a pattern appeared it would be quite likely that more than you had played them. , you still had 100 chances. from your 100 picks. no amount of wheeling gives you better of hitting the jackpot.

but yeah as suggest get your wheels designed early, and if you decide on a budget to spend, start filling out cards i then weeks ahead of the draw you are eventually going to play.

good luck

Hi SG ... wheeling probably wouldn't have helped me much today ... out of the 14 numbers that have come out the most in the last 50 draws, only three of today's winning numbers were in my list of numbers ... so I could not have hit $100 anyway since four numbers are needed for that.

It was an experiment that could have gone either way, with QPs or wheeled numbers ... I wanted some 12's as the lowest number ... only had a 13 and a 15.

There are only 30 numbers in the game but just getting two numbers for a dollar is still a challenge ... but when the money is high, it's worth some extra tickets.

Total odds are 1: 142,506 ... but it's a computer based game and I am not crazy about that fact.

...
Raven62

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Apr 19, 2015, 5:48 pm

Quote: Originally posted by MillionsWanted on Apr 19, 2015
Pick your own numbers and be happy every time. Then you can only blame yourself.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never returns to its original dimensions!

Catch-22: A dilemma or difficult circumstance from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions.

Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges: When the republic is at its most corrupt the laws are most numerous.

The best way to learn is to never stop being an Experiential Student!
RJOh

100

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Apr 19, 2015, 6:17 pm

Quote: Originally posted by MillionsWanted on Apr 19, 2015
Pick your own numbers and be happy every time. Then you can only blame yourself.

When it's my money paying for the tickets I blame myself no matter how the numbers were picked.

* you don't need to buy every combination, just the winning ones *
Ron5995

Wyomissing, PA
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November 15, 2014
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Apr 19, 2015, 8:16 pm

Your experience makes me wonder if some terminal RNDs are intentionally skewed. Terminal RNDs are generally not scrutinized; not guaranteed random.

Skewing quickpicks could result in more roll-overs than would be normally expected. Gaming manufactures often get a cut of lottery sales. Not saying they specifically do for PA Treasure Hunt, but may for other popular terminal jackpot games various lotteries offer. Has anyone research this angle?

Since various lottery jurisdictions use different terminals and/or software, it's likely such quickpick skewing wouldn't be overly effective for national games, such as PB and MM, but for in-jurisdiction (state / regional) games, such as Cash 5 games, quickpick skewing very well could be.

Personally, I play quickpicks, but in conjunction with my own selected numbers. Playing all QPs rarely works out, though some things to try is playing different terminals, different times of day, and/or throttle your purchasing - instead of buying the max 5 QPs at once, buy only one or two lines per ticket...

That may be too extreme / time consuming for large purchases, so the next best route would be play blocks of 5 QPs in separate transactions (ie. when playing $20 worth, do it as 4 separate transactions with some time separating them; play something else in between, even if it's just instants). Some suggestions to try for more diverse quickpicks.
Crazy Wombat

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Apr 20, 2015, 6:10 am

Quote: Originally posted by Ron5995 on Apr 19, 2015
Your experience makes me wonder if some terminal RNDs are intentionally skewed. Terminal RNDs are generally not scrutinized; not guaranteed random.

Skewing quickpicks could result in more roll-overs than would be normally expected. Gaming manufactures often get a cut of lottery sales. Not saying they specifically do for PA Treasure Hunt, but may for other popular terminal jackpot games various lotteries offer. Has anyone research this angle?

Since various lottery jurisdictions use different terminals and/or software, it's likely such quickpick skewing wouldn't be overly effective for national games, such as PB and MM, but for in-jurisdiction (state / regional) games, such as Cash 5 games, quickpick skewing very well could be.

Personally, I play quickpicks, but in conjunction with my own selected numbers. Playing all QPs rarely works out, though some things to try is playing different terminals, different times of day, and/or throttle your purchasing - instead of buying the max 5 QPs at once, buy only one or two lines per ticket...

That may be too extreme / time consuming for large purchases, so the next best route would be play blocks of 5 QPs in separate transactions (ie. when playing $20 worth, do it as 4 separate transactions with some time separating them; play something else in between, even if it's just instants). Some suggestions to try for more diverse quickpicks.

Ron ... that's why I decided to post about my QPs yesterday. I don't usually play $100 at a time on a single game ... haven't done it for many years, last time was probably for that record MM jackpot so long ago.

I only started this topic to see if anyone else shared my thoughts about buying QPs in PA and their experience ... I didn't do it to "brag" about going big on yesterday's TH jackpot.

You are right, as for a national game with tickets being purchased all over the country with various RNGs being in play versus a state game setup.

I have noticed this in PA with just buying a few QP tickets or even just one ... I don't play Cash 5 or Treasure Hunt everyday ... only when the jackpot is high.

I may go $5, $10 or $20 in tickets ... it just seems to me that I tend to end up with many more lower starting numbers verses higher starting numbers.

If most tickets printed have lower starting numbers and a 12 or 14 is the lowest number drawn then of course there's a "good" chance the jackpot will not be hit that day and then to add, if the game is a computerized draw ... there could be potential for the jackpot to be around a few days longer for extra ticket sales.

I have had this happen more than once on Cash 5, Treasure Hunt and Match 6 ... I go in to get a Cash 5 QP ... just one ticket and it starts with a 01 ... I hate 01s and usually turn around and go get another ticket hoping for a higher number. More than once I have bought two sets of numbers on the same ticket and they both start with 01 ... many times this happens ... I get 01, 02, and 03 on one line ... I think that happens more than it should.

Several times I have had 01, 02 and 03 print out in that order ... I have a Match 6 ticket going tonight with a 01, 02, 03 on one line ... to me that's a wasted line on the Match 6 ticket.

Many times now I will "work" the terminal to get a 07, 10 or 12 as a starting number on the Cash 5 ... if there is no one waiting behind me then I have the time to work a higher number into the very first spot.

I don't know ... just my personal observation when buying my tickets. Yesterday I did as you suggested in your post. I went to three terminals ... two self serve and one regular human terminal. I bought a few $5 block of tickets and mostly $1 and $2 ticket purchases. One $2 purchase had both lines starting with a 01 ... maybe the RNGs in computer speed time print and kick back to a 01.

Not knowing how a RNG works but I will say this ... several years ago when a new PA casino opened near me ... I got friendly with a worker on the floor ... just happen to see him a lot when I was there, so I started asking about newer slot machines showing up every so often ... he had been working there before the casino had even opened, helping in the setup. He told me after a year or so that when they put new slot machines on the floor ... they let them go a month to see what the payoffs are, if the money return is too low then the casino will make adjustments on a machine to make less payouts ... so that would be adjusting the slot machine's RNG to keep more money for the casino.

What else could be "adjusted" ... just the RNG, correct ?

That's all I know, from what I see and have been told.

...
savagegoose

adelaide sa
Australia
Member #37,135
April 11, 2006
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Apr 20, 2015, 9:51 am

Quote: Originally posted by Crazy Wombat on Apr 19, 2015
Hi SG ... wheeling probably wouldn't have helped me much today ... out of the 14 numbers that have come out the most in the last 50 draws, only three of today's winning numbers were in my list of numbers ... so I could not have hit $100 anyway since four numbers are needed for that.

It was an experiment that could have gone either way, with QPs or wheeled numbers ... I wanted some 12's as the lowest number ... only had a 13 and a 15.

There are only 30 numbers in the game but just getting two numbers for a dollar is still a challenge ... but when the money is high, it's worth some extra tickets.

Total odds are 1: 142,506 ... but it's a computer based game and I am not crazy about that fact.

...

well i dont mean to teach how to suck eggs, but i cant help but make a suggestion, its a method i try and do for all the random games i play where im sure the draws are unbiased.

thats wheel every number, so for instance with 100 games i would get some cover that enshures I have every number being on my tickets. if you have access cover master. its simple as selecting a pool of 30 numbers, and hits of 5, then match of 4 and pick of 5.

after a min or 2 it takes to run the thru the generation, it will tell you that you have odds of %8.8 of hitting 4 out of 5 numbers. and a look at the
menu item
tool>>reports>> quick

it will show a 97% chance of hitting 3 numbers.

tinkering with the way you set up will increase these odds, and running optimise may help a few decimal points. on the chances. for instance reducing the pool to 29 numbers. ie there is 1 number that must not be drawn. raised the odds of getting 4 numbers to 10%

but if like me, you accept you suck at picking the winning numbers, you can just make sure you can get them all on the tickets YOU DO PLAY.

" Still swinging, still missing "
2014 = -1016; 2015= -1409; 2016 = -1171; 2017 = -1257 ; 2018 = - 1380 = TOT = - 6233

keno historic = -2291 ; 2015= -603; 2016= -424; 2017 =-427; 2018= -223 TOT = -3968

:
Ron5995

Wyomissing, PA
United States
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November 15, 2014
481 Posts
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Apr 20, 2015, 3:15 pm

The skewing you describe seems very blatant. It could be a serious flaw in the RND, which wouldn't surprise me in the least. Ever watch a self-service terminal reboot? I have, and yikes! Lots of apparent software kludges appear to load during start up. Maybe it's secure, but it sure doesn't look like it.

More to the point, with all that software and hardware interacting, it's very possible the RND is faulty in some way. It's been an ongoing problem with many SSL programs on the web due to poor configuration; using same seed(s), leading to predictable patterns and/or less than optimal randomness.

On a related note, I've personally experienced PA self-serve terminal software glitches firsthand. About two years ago, if one requested tickets for more than one draw at certain times of day, the next immediate draw would be skipped! And the glitch was around for awhile - from what I recall, several weeks or more before it was fixed...

It was as if the terminal was confused about the day cut-off time; software is likely similar to that used in other jurisdiction's machines, which could explain the cause of that problem. For example, buy a ticket at 12:30 PM for 5 day and night draws, and the next draw wouldn't be that day, but starting night! Buying a weeks worth of tickets was interesting. Terminal would accept the purchase, send the request, reject with error for the day part (or night if after 1:05 pm) and print only the part that didn't exceed the 7 draw limit. Didn't always occur, but when it did, seem to occur mostly between late morning well into the afternoon.

Point is that some very noticeable, documented glitches have occurred and weren't immediately addressed. So there could definitely be something wrong with PA terminal RND software. And related to that, such a flaw could be intentional, since it could result in more roll-overs than would be statistically expected.

After reading about your most recent experience and recalling some of the QP whoppers I've had, I'm going to do mostly handpicks along with utilizing LP's quickpick feature - maybe it's not totally random, but the sequences sure seems better than PA terminals QPs.

As for casino gaming machines, it's not the rnd that's adjusted, but rather the paytable. While it's possible for a casino to illegally tamper with the rnd, there's really no need, since the law of big numbers is in the casino's favor - hundreds to thousands of machines with modest, limited max bets. Adjusting the paytable is all that's necessary to increase / decrease payouts...

This is easily observed on video poker machines - one can easily compare paytables from one to another and from casino to casino for the same game (ie. Jacks or Better). For slots, such information is hidden, and the only info the casino might provide is the overall payout of a particular machine or, more often than not, for an entire bank of machines - ie. many casinos will have a wall of machines touting 97% payback or whatever.
Crazy Wombat

United States
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December 3, 2014
328 Posts
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Apr 20, 2015, 7:43 pm

Quote: Originally posted by Ron5995 on Apr 20, 2015
The skewing you describe seems very blatant. It could be a serious flaw in the RND, which wouldn't surprise me in the least. Ever watch a self-service terminal reboot? I have, and yikes! Lots of apparent software kludges appear to load during start up. Maybe it's secure, but it sure doesn't look like it.

More to the point, with all that software and hardware interacting, it's very possible the RND is faulty in some way. It's been an ongoing problem with many SSL programs on the web due to poor configuration; using same seed(s), leading to predictable patterns and/or less than optimal randomness.

On a related note, I've personally experienced PA self-serve terminal software glitches firsthand. About two years ago, if one requested tickets for more than one draw at certain times of day, the next immediate draw would be skipped! And the glitch was around for awhile - from what I recall, several weeks or more before it was fixed...

It was as if the terminal was confused about the day cut-off time; software is likely similar to that used in other jurisdiction's machines, which could explain the cause of that problem. For example, buy a ticket at 12:30 PM for 5 day and night draws, and the next draw wouldn't be that day, but starting night! Buying a weeks worth of tickets was interesting. Terminal would accept the purchase, send the request, reject with error for the day part (or night if after 1:05 pm) and print only the part that didn't exceed the 7 draw limit. Didn't always occur, but when it did, seem to occur mostly between late morning well into the afternoon.

Point is that some very noticeable, documented glitches have occurred and weren't immediately addressed. So there could definitely be something wrong with PA terminal RND software. And related to that, such a flaw could be intentional, since it could result in more roll-overs than would be statistically expected.

After reading about your most recent experience and recalling some of the QP whoppers I've had, I'm going to do mostly handpicks along with utilizing LP's quickpick feature - maybe it's not totally random, but the sequences sure seems better than PA terminals QPs.

As for casino gaming machines, it's not the rnd that's adjusted, but rather the paytable. While it's possible for a casino to illegally tamper with the rnd, there's really no need, since the law of big numbers is in the casino's favor - hundreds to thousands of machines with modest, limited max bets. Adjusting the paytable is all that's necessary to increase / decrease payouts...

This is easily observed on video poker machines - one can easily compare paytables from one to another and from casino to casino for the same game (ie. Jacks or Better). For slots, such information is hidden, and the only info the casino might provide is the overall payout of a particular machine or, more often than not, for an entire bank of machines - ie. many casinos will have a wall of machines touting 97% payback or whatever.

I don't have a way to take pictures of my TH tickets from Sunday so I am going to type out the numbers of four tickets ... these were $5 block tickets, all my other tickets were $1 and $2 tickets from two self serve terminals.

01 - $5.00

01 08 09 16 21

03 13 23 25 26

05 14 17 27 28

02 05 12 19 25

01 08 16 17 24

02 - $5.00

01 02 05 08 18

01 08 16 17 30

03 15 17 19 28

07 11 23 28 30

12 13 17 18 19

03 - $5.00

04 08 10 19 23

03 11 13 17 22

05 19 20 23 26

02 13 18 26 30

02 07 09 16 18

04 - $5.00

08 10 18 22 28

01 05 06 15 18

02 06 13 24 27

02 12 17 21 27

10 17 19 21 24

... you will have to trust me that these are the actual numbers that printed out for $20 of the $100 in tickets, lots of 01s, 02s, 03s, 04s and 05s also on the other 80 tickets.

I don't know, probably better for a person to do their own QPs and spread everything out ... yesterday 12 was the first starting number and today it was 11 ... those tickets with all the low starting numbers would be all losers today as well.

As I said, just an observation ... I find it amazing that 01s and 02s can print very fast again and again on lines. I had a $2 ticket yesterday with 01 as the starting number on both lines.

...

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