NJ casino alleges famous poker player cheated in $9.6M win

Comment #71

THRIFTY — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:18:12 GMT

Gambling and cheating do not mix.

Comment #70

THRIFTY — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:15:52 GMT

I thought that all slot machines were expensive.

Comment #69

RedStang — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 03:10:54 GMT

Foxwoods casino accused me of cheating when i won a million playing Rock-paper-scissors. They tried to arrest me, but i hid over in the penny slots with the ladies.

Comment #68

Jon D — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 13:46:57 GMT

The dealing of cards face down is normal in baccarat. The key was interrupting the dealer's normal rigid flow of card handling to achieve desired edge sorting result.

I like playing baccarat, but I find the tradition of peeking at the cards to be so silly. Especially among asian players, where tradition and superstition are very important, baccarat is extremely popular. What they do is squeeze and bend up the edges of the cards to take a peek at it very slowly from all 4 sides to build the su... [ More ]

Comment #67

Stack47 — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 01:30:57 GMT

From looking at the details provided so far, does not appear to be cheating per se.

It was more like a sting and easy to do because beginning in 2008, the AC casinos wanted any high roller action and to get it, changed some of the playing rules at the player's request. Don Johnson won over $5 million playing blackjack at Borgata after negotiating what appeared to be minor changes in the rules that actually gave him a mathematical edge.

The design on the back of the cards along with dealin... [ More ]

Comment #66

Jon D — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:48:11 GMT

Yeah, I know. But remember that's the lawyer for the plaintiff/casino using that word in the lawsuit for dramatic effect, get it?

This will be an interesting court battle, can't wait to see it.

Comment #65

noise-gate — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:44:06 GMT

The Post says...

The suit claims the cards, manufactured by Gemaco Inc., and used in the baccarat games were defective in that the pattern on the back of them was not uniform. The cards have rows of small white circles designed to look like the tops of cut diamonds, but the Borgata claims some of them were only a half diamond or a quarter of one.

Just quoting from the source Ol Chap..

Comment #64

Jon D — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:23:20 GMT

Don't count me in with that. I don't remember even commenting on that slot machine story, that is silly, just a machine malfunction. Can't expect payout from that.

This story is advantage play like card counting, which casinos have *tried* to sue players in the past, and failed. But this case is borderline with some other elements, so time will tell. From looking at the details provided so far, does not appear to be cheating per se.

And remember, innocent until proven guilty in a court of... [ More ]

Comment #63

Jon D — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:18:05 GMT

They weren't necessarily defective cards, but had asymmetrical design features based on manufacturing variances. Apparently, this is not uncommon and cards like this are in wide use in casinos. Phil also cleverly requested specific decks of Gemaco purple cards, perhaps knowing those had more likelihood of the feature or maybe just to sell the superstitious line.

And the player advantage wouldn't have happened if the cards weren't selectively rotated (by the dealer) anyway, that was the key. A... [ More ]

Comment #62

Coin Toss — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 22:06:23 GMT

Todd,

Yes those sentences were in the news story but as I'm sure you're very well aware a lot of people just read headers ot thread titles and go no further yet spout their opinions.

Also from the story:

The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in baccarat. The numbers 6, 7, 8 and 9 are considered good cards. Other bad cards would be flipped in different directions, so that after sev... [ More ]

Comment #61

noise-gate — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:47:16 GMT

The Casino would also be alleging that Ivey won by exploiting defective cards- which they supplied.

Any recent word on them destroying their existing stock of faulty cards

Comment #60

noise-gate — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 19:45:50 GMT

This raises another question JD- did the house have defective cards on hand for each and every occasion that Ivey showed up to play? That is a stretch, unless an entire batch of defective cards were bought and stored on property for a considerable amount of time with Ivey knowing about it.....another stretch of the imagination

Comment #59

Jon D — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:05:38 GMT

Right.

The technique gave him an unfair advantage on four occasions between April and October 2012, the casino asserted in its lawsuit.

So one of the top gamblers in the world comes into your house and walks away with a few million profit 4 times in a row on a game and nobody takes notice? Well, I guess on the last time they did take notice, but it was too little too late.

The milk has already been spilt. The horse has left the barn. Sorry.

Comment #58

noise-gate — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 16:00:34 GMT

The thread reads Alleges - meaning the Casino assumes thst Ivey got away with their money this way .

What l find curious is the fact that casino's are crawling with security cameras, why is it then that when Ivey continued winning they did they not suspect that something was going on?

Was it a case that the guy is a World Champion in Poker -his just got himself a hot hand today so let him play till he burns himself out, he eventually will empty his pockets back into our casino?

The casi... [ More ]

Comment #57

Jon D — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:07:42 GMT

Sad. Why you feel the need to make such inflamatory, annoying, hateful and defamatory posts is beyond me. Have fun talking to bikini's by the pool. But I would advise you that the girls seeing you do that might think you're a psycho, talking to an article of clothing rather than to a person.

Comment #56

veganlife125 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 14:00:23 GMT

Look geek i already said we have to wait till trial to find out all the facts so your babble is useless. You and others are biased against the casinos for obvious reasons not to mention weak minded for taking a few articles as containing all the facts. No wonder direct marketing works.

Now im going to the pool today to talk to some bikini's and you make sure to watch harry potter for the 1000th time with the rest of the boys ok.

Comment #55

Jon D — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 12:55:33 GMT

However, if he or his partner were marking cards, switching cards, or the DEALER WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH THE CHEAT then he should lose.

There was no mention of marking cards or switching cards, nor any implication of the dealer being complicit the operation. All reports indicate he never marked cards, and never even touched the cards. Please don't inject unsubstantiated claims into the topic or sully the reputation of the dealer who is by all accounts an innocent party. And also, please do... [ More ]

Comment #54

veganlife125 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 12:06:08 GMT

If Ivey won because of skill, luck, card counting, or reading the back of defective cards then he should win. However, if he or his partner were marking cards, switching cards, or the DEALER WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH THE CHEAT then he should lose. We don't know that yet. What we do know is the posters on this thread are glad he stuck it to the casinos whether it was legal or not. Thats not surprising considering human nature. Don't pull against the casinos because they are rich or because you n... [ More ]

Comment #53

Todd — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 11:50:47 GMT

Those sentences are in this news story.

Comment #52

Coin Toss — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 03:40:22 GMT

From the AP:

A lawsuit filed in Britain's High Court by the Malaysia-based Genting Group, a major casino operator, makes a similar claim against Ivey.

It alleges Ivey and an accomplice amassed almost $12 million by cheating at baccarat. In that case, Ivey has denied any misconduct.

Comment #51

Stack47 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 01:19:11 GMT

Phil Ivey is becoming a world class hustler. Another poker player owed Ivey $900,000 from a golfing bet, but refused to payoff saying Ivey lied about his golfing skills.

Comment #50

grwurston — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 01:01:50 GMT

Sounds like a classic case of, I can do it to you, but you can't do it to me. WTG Phil.

Comment #49

Drenick1 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:56:35 GMT

Isn't it odd that when the casinos are accused of cheating after emptying their clients bank account no one seems to care but when it happens to them they want to be portrayed as the victim.

Sorry but I'm with Phil on this one.

Comment #48

LottoBoner — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:53:34 GMT

Well a good system can definately cause a matrix change, I would assume.

But for me I am not really concerned about the winning. And I am not trying to exploit anything. I am just trying to follow the zodiac and my lucky numbers.

Really I am doing it for the kids.

For their edumacation.

Comment #47

JonnyBgood07 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:35:45 GMT

Ivey and an associate exploited a defect in cards..

really????...we could apply this to lottery playing whether cash3 or cash 4.The next time you run across a method that works in a backtest

short or long term,try not to feel guilty about winning.

Aren't we all here 'exploiting' or at least trying to find a flaw in a game with patterns,,lonest outs,TTT's date theories.etc..??..It was legal last time I knew.

Comment #46

RedStang — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:29:09 GMT

I think he was tipped off about the cards and when he kept winning, the casino noticed this and let him continue to figure out how he did it. Thought they always changed dealers when their losing.

Comment #45

Lucky Loser — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:26:45 GMT

My apologies, Todd...I can see mine were deleted. I got a little carried away sometimes with all the information I keep up with. I'll keep it within the blogs from now on.

L.L.

Comment #44

Marilyn222 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:16:53 GMT

Thank you.

Comment #43

Stack47 — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:13:33 GMT

Actually you were partly correct because in the game Ivey was playing, the bank is neither male or female. The bank an amount of money the casino is willing to lose on that table. The woman in the depiction is the dealer though in a variation of Baccarat, the players banking or booking the bets is called the banker . Sheldon Adelson owns the Borgata so he was the banker in this story.

There were and probably still are woman casino owners. Claudine Williams owned the Holiday Casino and Becky B... [ More ]

Comment #42

Jon D — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 23:42:16 GMT

I especially like the way he used the Chinese chick, and demanding a dealer speaking Mandarin.

That was a key to finalizing the hustle, by getting the casino's own dealer to become an unwitting participant in the sting. And since they were talking to eachother in Mandarin, the pit boss and anyone watching from the eye in the sky would have a hard time catching what was going on...unless they spoke Mandarin too.

Ivey also made special arrangements, including having a private area, or pit,... [ More ]

Comment #41

duckman — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 23:02:36 GMT

The casinos need to stop buying those cheaper off-shore produced playing cards ...

Comment #40

Todd — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:36:25 GMT

I had to delete several posts. Please do not revisit the topics that I have deleted.

Comment #39

Stack47 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:31:32 GMT

As you said, the Borgata agreed to the gambling conditions Ivey set, but now are suing him because according them he lied about why he wanted those conditions . The practice of whales and high rollers getting different gaming conditions than the average player was around for years, but it's been more competitive since 2008. Some casinos quickly agreed to the conditions without checking to see if the conditions give the player the edge.

A gambler named Don Johnson won millions playing Black Ja... [ More ]

Comment #38

eddessaknight — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:15:37 GMT

Point well taken about ACE LB

While we are on the subject of the old cat mouse game between casino players, permit me to share some humble insight on the mangement mind set of casino cat as I have witnessed it in Las Vegas for approx 25 years.

The casinos game operators offer a negative expectation lossing proposition called gambling as an entertainment. Playing customes be it table games, lottery or slot players are suppose to lose according to odds posted (average). When player's winning... [ More ]

Comment #37

Lucky Loser — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:12:10 GMT

Yep, Phil was playing by the casino's rules, and, with the casino's cards. No foul from where I'm standing!!! Know what? I hate sore losers. I mean, I down right hate 'em!! Especially when you beat 'em at their own game at their own house!!! It's just pathetic.

L.L.

Comment #36

Drenick1 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 17:18:39 GMT

Oh...OK, Thanks for clarifying your post.

I do agree that the casino should leave Phil alone and let him keep his money. Phil was on the look out for any advantage and used it to the of his ability. He didn't supply the cards or the dealer so I feel the casino has an uphill battle to get their money back.

Comment #35

JoeBigLotto — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:51:47 GMT

What i find amazing is that the casinos always investigate players for big win but you will never hear of players investigating casinos for big lost. Ivey has a clean record and casinos have a dirty record so am not sure who needs to be proven guilty first and all this news on public opinion is a damage news if you have a case take it to the court and find him gulty first in a court room. The casinos know what they can afford to pay on every game so if there is a problem you know his face very w... [ More ]

Comment #34

Jon D — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:38:33 GMT

Uh...OK, I think you completely misunderstood my post.

I said: They're the ones that messed up. Let Phil have his money,

They being the casino. They agreed to the terms of the game set by Phil, and now they are suing him to get their money back when it backfired on them.

I said: $9.6 mil? Heck, that's chump change for them.

Them being a continuation of the casino and by ownership, the owner. And of course, I know that Sheldon Adelson is a billionaire and has much more disposable mo... [ More ]

Comment #33

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:56:54 GMT

I've never been to a casino, that's why...pardon my ignorance.

Comment #32

Drenick1 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:51:30 GMT

Not sure what world you live in but here in the United States there are plenty of female bankers.

Comment #31

Drenick1 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:49:24 GMT

Sheldon Adelson who is one of the wealthiest man on earth and Phil Ivey are not in the same league in terms of wealth. It may very well be chump change for Sheldon Adelson but certainly not for Phil Ivey.

Speaking of campaign contributions, George Soros donated north of a hundred million dollars toward Obama's re-election and the sad part is that with voter fraud, deception and using the IRS to suppress the opposition none of that money was even needed.

Comment #30

Artist77 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:31:34 GMT

What century are you from? You certainly are insulting the women and especially the professionally educated women on this site. My mother was (retired now) an accountant and a bank VP. And I have several friends from college who are bankers.

I guess instead we should all just post pics of us in our nighties and email the men and ask for their pics and whine how bored we are??? It is hard for me to believe you live in the United States.

Comment #29

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:13:15 GMT

I find it strange for a woman to be a banker, I guess it's possible.

Comment #28

Jon D — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:10:58 GMT

I found a graphic which details how the sting went down. Pretty slick there Phil!

http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/borgata-sues-phil-ivey-over-9-6-million-baccarat-win-589425

Comment #27

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 15:08:11 GMT

Ten measures of beauty descended to the world, nine were taken by Jerusalem. Talmud Kiddushin 49b. The Gutenberg Bible

Comment #26

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:37:07 GMT

Thank you...now I know how it works.

Comment #25

Coin Toss — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 14:23:26 GMT

Baccarat is a card game where the players bet on bank, player, or tie.

In the blackjack pits there is uisually one or two 'mini' baccarat games........they look like 21 tables but the game layout is different.

Big Bac has its own pit and that's where a lot more money is bet.

Comment #24

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:08:36 GMT

What is a baccarat

Comment #23

luckyshoes — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 11:10:56 GMT

My thoughts,too. The house allowed him in the door knowing he was a strategic player/winner. They assumed they could take his money because the house is tilted to win. And when the house didnt win.. they cry defective cards-their OWN cards...

The winner beat them at their own game. Some casinos dont allow whales in because of their success rate....didnt this one know that

Comment #22

RJOh — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 04:41:41 GMT

Kinda like when you hear about problems with lottery draws, or defects in scratch cards that allowed someone an advantage or could to determine winners. I always wonder, maybe the defect was put there by someone on purpose... Hmmm...

Over the years I've read about the occasional mess up with lottery drawings that were missed by the auditors but instead of players taking advantages of them they usually notify the lotteries and complain about them, that's what happen when Tennessee computers d... [ More ]

Comment #21

Coin Toss — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 04:39:56 GMT

Casinos get cards and dice from different suppliers, the most common one in Vegas fopr a long time was Paulson.

The dice had a reputation for being favorable to the players and the old time bosses called them Passing Paulsons .

Comment #20

LottoBoner — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 04:15:46 GMT

Sam Rothstein would have known.

The problem with heist movies is they dont have good understanding of physics.

There always seems to be a small asian guy who happens to defy gravity.

I did take a look back at the article and I can see the defect now.

It happens that the background was not uniformly bisected in all the templates.

It was off by perhaps 6 pixels are so.

In the Kevin Spacey movie, maybe that was something that wasn't mentioned, but they were also improvising with.... [ More ]

Comment #19

noise-gate — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 04:11:22 GMT

If this becomes a drawn out court case- watch for it on HOBO starring Jesse Eisenberg.

Comment #18

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:53:11 GMT

Never been to a casino in my lifetime, but it sounds like the casino ppl are sore loosers and they want their money back.

Comment #17

Jon D — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:50:44 GMT

Yeah, I love a good heist movie like Oceans Eleven, Now You See Me, or the classic The Sting.

So, these asymmetric cards, maybe somebody knew about it. Not the casino owner of course, but somebody down lower like the guy that buys the cards for the casino. Maybe somebody wanted cards in play that could be edge sorted by some other player at a later date.

Kinda like when you hear about problems with lottery draws, or defects in scratch cards that allowed someone an advantage or could to det... [ More ]

Comment #16

MonEl — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:48:22 GMT

Seems to me that the casinos are the criminals, when people lose they don't give them their money back.

Comment #15

Jon D — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:43:53 GMT

He already got the money, now the casino wants it back!

They're the ones that messed up. Let Phil have his money, and now they know better. Did he really commit a crime? A court will decide I guess.

$9.6 mil? Heck, that's chump change for them. Sheldon Adelson dumped $10M on a superpac trying to buy an election, so that's nothing to those guys.

Comment #14

MonEl — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:30:07 GMT

The casino is full of bull you know what, that person has no need to do as they claim, besides they should not be able to fairly prove it, they don't want to pay him that is all.

Whenever somebody wins big money, the casinos always claim that the person violated some kind of gambling rule.

Casinos are full of, well I already said what they are full of.

They should just declare that winning is against casinos' gambling rules.

----------------------------

Just as the lottery outfits... [ More ]

Comment #13

Marilyn222 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:14:53 GMT

Comment #12

mypiemaster — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 03:03:40 GMT

Another lousy excuse not to pay up. JUST PAY THE MAN.

Comment #11

LottoBoner — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:40:50 GMT

One of the most closely-guarded secrets in the upper echelons of casino advantage (+) play is the practice of card sorting, known as the turn The technique is predicated on the imperfections in the manufacturing process of casino playing cards. The backs of the cards, which generally contain some sort of repeating diamond or geometrical pattern, are often asymmetrical. If examined closely, it will be revealed that the top and bottom or right and left edges of the cards are not identical

Comment #10

noise-gate — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:22:17 GMT

The house allowed him to play knowing full well that his a seasoned player.It's quite possible that they had beaten him in the past- this time he came loaded for bear and walked away with millions.

If you don't like the competition- don't allow them in.Did he win those championships by cheating, if not its a matter of spilt milk by the house.

Comment #9

EdG1955 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 02:08:00 GMT

If a casino is to cheap to buy quality playing cards with symmetric designs, they deserve what they get. If a casino is to cheap to replace a deck when it shows wear, they deserve to lose. If casinos are too cheap to buy flip-flop card sorters, they deserve to be taken advantage of.

Comment #8

Jon D — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 01:31:30 GMT

http://apheat.net/2013/12/10/edge-sorting-101

Comment #7

veganlife125 — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 01:22:50 GMT

I enjoy watching the world poker tour and the world series of poker on tv. It's hard to believe these charges would be brought without the evidence intact. It would hurt the gambling industry's reputation to be wrong and they need it to discourage other cheaters.

When the gaming commissions of New Jersey, Malaysia, and Las Vegas get after you it might as well be the fbi or cia. Between the card maker, the dealer, and Ivey's accomplice a good guess would be that one of them rolled over for a... [ More ]

Comment #6

mrcraft — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 01:07:27 GMT

I don't get it. Doesn't the casino supply the cards? So, if there was a defect that he spotted and took advantage of, why is the casino suing him? How about the dealer? Did he/she get fired and being sued? Is the card manufacturer being sued too?

This sounds like a frivolous lawsuit.

Comment #5

grwurston — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 00:32:51 GMT

If the cards were defective then why did the casino use them? The guy is a nine time poker champion so obviously he knows

what he's doing. Sounds like the casino is mad cause they got beat.

Comment #4

Jon D — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:48:57 GMT

Always fun hearing about these kinds of stories.

No matter how tight the security and procedures are, no matter how confident the house is in their guaranteed mathematical advantage, players always find a way.

I guess in these Borgata games players didn't squeeze or mangle the cards as they were played. Lots of placed I've played baccarat with lots of asian players, the cards get so mangled that they cannot shuffle and reuse them, so this ploy wouldn't work.

Comment #3

Marilyn222 — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:43:35 GMT

Ha! It will take years before they could prove it...lawyers are very good on twisting things around...on the other hand, the monies will be gone by then before they go to prison, the lawyer will take it all! hehehehe...

Comment #2

lottoguysocal — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:41:14 GMT

sounds like the casino just doesn't want to pay up. can't imagine him cheating and them allowing him to walk out of the casino knowing that he cheated.

Comment #1

LottoBoner — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:32:56 GMT

I want to be the Tiger Woods of knocking over the cheesy poofs .

NJ casino alleges famous poker player cheated in $9.6M win

Lottery Post — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:29:53 GMT

An Atlantic City casino is suing a big-time gambler, claiming he won $9.6 million in a card-cheating scheme in baccarat.

The Borgata Hotel Casino Spa filed a federal lawsuit Tuesday against Phillip Ivey Jr., considered one of the best poker players in the world.

The suit alleges Ivey and an associate exploited a defect in cards made by a Kansas City manufacturer that enabled them to sort and arrange so-called good cards in baccarat. The technique gave him an unfair advantage on four occasi... [ More ]