The possibilities for fraud in RNG games

Reply #64

Rip Snorter — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 01:58:04 GMT

Oftentimes, the exact meaning intended is lost along the way.

More often than not, most likely.

If you come to NM sometime and I happen to still be alive you feel free to demand a cup of coffee and whatever mesa or canyon I'm able to conjure up by then.

Best to you,

Jack

Reply #63

csfb — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 20:15:09 GMT

Ah, the strange world of the written word. As complicated as the organism using it, and the organism reading it. Oftentimes, the exact meaning intended is lost along the way.

Reply #62

Rip Snorter — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:33:35 GMT

Whatever works best for you

Reply #61

csfb — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:11:36 GMT

Jack, I voted, Who are you kidding? I don't play RNG.

What's RNG? I play megamillions only and I use quick pick to generate my numbers.

Buena swerte, senyor.

Reply #60

Rip Snorter — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:43:00 GMT

Robbery:

Customer flips down his credit card: I'm on Pump 7.

Clerk: Seven gallons. $97.42 (Real) US. Hands a slip to the customer to sign. Would you like to buy a scratcher?

Customer: Thank you, no. I don't itch.

Clerk pulls Model 1911 Colt from beneath the counter. You WANT to buy a scratcher.

Customer: On second thought, I do.

Use of the word 'slavery' to describe the sphere of human choices involved in buying lottery tickets is a deliberate insult to th... [ More ]

Reply #59

pumpi76 — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 13:20:06 GMT

another type of robbery are scratch-offs...

For the glory of Rome ....

Reply #58

Clairvoyance — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 03:12:02 GMT

Hi Rick,

Well I suspect I came out of the situation fairly well.

Except that I like to shoot quarters from a slingshot on to the neighbors roof top 12 midnight! Makes them think something is on the roof and keeps them up for hours!

Hmmmmmmmm! LOL

Reply #57

Rip Snorter — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 01:20:32 GMT

Hi Jim:

I expect you're right. Some logic can't be argued against.

J

Reply #56

jim695 — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:52:35 GMT

Ya gotta admit, Jack, the man backed up his argument.

You just can't argue with that kind of logic... (well, I can't, anyway...

Reply #55

pumpi76 — Mon, 17 Jul 2006 00:29:28 GMT

You all don't have to agree with me. But is still slavery....Where else can you get instantenously rich? I say two ways: In the Stock market or on the Lottery...Unless you want to rob a bank, start a scam, steal cars...Is slavery....Is slavery and is Robery....don't care who says what...

Put example Powerball, it has 150 something million combinations...If 150 Something million people bought the powerball tickets, it will still not cover the 150 something million combinations that Powerball has... [ More ]

Reply #54

Rip Snorter — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:58:47 GMT

Quote: Originally posted by Rick G on July 16, 2006 The purpose of an independent auditing firm overseeing a lottery drawing is not to just pre-test draws. In a ball drawing, the integrity of the machine is tested and the balls are weighed and their diameter is measured. The ball sets and machines are kept in a locked vault. These are physical checks to make sure the game is honest as intended and can't be tampered with. In a RNG drawing, the auditors can do nothing more than pre-test the comput... [ More ]

Reply #53

Rick G — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 17:16:04 GMT

The purpose of an independent auditing firm overseeing a lottery drawing is not to just pre-test draws. In a ball drawing, the integrity of the machine is tested and the balls are weighed and their diameter is measured. The ball sets and machines are kept in a locked vault. These are physical checks to make sure the game is honest as intended and can't be tampered with. In a RNG drawing, the auditors can do nothing more than pre-test the computer (and obviously that is not enough to find pro... [ More ]

Reply #52

Rip Snorter — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:52:27 GMT

Pumpi:

A couple of points.

First, one of the major differences between slavery and a regular job is that you can't quit a slave job, where'as you can quit (in theory) a job of the sort where the boss with more limited powers of persuasion.

Every day I fight off the urge to go buy NM Roadrunner tickets.

Every Wednesday and Saturday I fight off the urge to buy Powerball tickets unless I decide things look happy enough to do it.

Those games aren't slavery. They're just a demonstra... [ More ]

Reply #51

Rip Snorter — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:41:44 GMT

The auditors appear to have been on a coffee break three days in a row or more.... memory eludes me... in KS, MO, Nebraska? One of those cornfield states a while back.

No, it wasn't rigged.

But if it had been the auditors still wouldn't have caught it.

J

Reply #50

ryanm — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:26:04 GMT

RNG draws are audited just like ball drawings are, and if the auditors didn't believe there was a way to judge whether the draws were rigged or not, the auditors would disclaim an opinion.

Reply #49

pumpi76 — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:19:53 GMT

I mention before the following:

If 1-2-3-5 plays in draw number 18, it WILL NOT PLAY between draw number 18 to 27, but instead it will take a long cycle to come up again...

Forgot to say that is not the case with a machine...with a machine, the likelyhood of 1-2-3-5 playing between draw number 18 to 27 is great, the numbers can repeat again with a machine but not with a RnG...

Rip Snorter you said: A temptation to lie to us, steal from us, enslave us if they can.

We already be... [ More ]

Reply #48

Rip Snorter — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 10:44:20 GMT

Then there was the what? Kansas problem with pick low-number three days in a row.... computer glitch, not subtle, still took two, three days to notice. A thirteen year old kid who pries himself away from hacking the national defense computers long enough ought to be able to arrive at subltly.

J

Reply #47

Bryan — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:48:14 GMT

The California Derby game already shows us that with all the safety precautions in place that something can still be miss by all parties involved. It was the players that brought the problem to light. So where were the auditors then? Where were the programmers that should check and double check each others work on the programs used? This went on for more than 6 months. Where were the statisticians during the 6 months worth of drawings? Why wasn't this noticed. This very thing proves those thinki... [ More ]

Reply #46

Rick G — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:16:17 GMT

Pac, I just caught that,,,good one

Reply #45

Rick G — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 06:11:08 GMT

It is an irrefutable argument that the POSSIBILITY of fraud exists a lot more in a random number computer draw than in a bunch of ping pong balls bouncing around in a chamber. Both types of draws are overseen by independent auditing companies.

The ping pong game has been rigged before, the perpetrators were caught and to this day that particular state's lottery is tainted from that fraud.

The question was the POSSIBILITY of doing a fraud. It's a lot easier to have a computer pick the des... [ More ]

Reply #44

pacattack05 — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 05:55:54 GMT

You must be talking about the Washington monument..........

Good Point.........Rick

Reply #43

Rip Snorter — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 05:16:14 GMT

We have a civic duty, a responsibility as citizens to be skeptical of our public officials and of official institutions.

If we fail to exercise that duty, that responsibility, we're committing a disservice to our officials and public servants.

Without a skeptical, mistrusting population we put an unreasonable degree of temptation in their paths. A temptation to lie to us, steal from us, enslave us if thay can.

They are humans. We have a responsibility to believe they'll behave as hu... [ More ]

Reply #42

Rip Snorter — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 04:50:14 GMT

KYFloyd:

Regardless of what you might find, there's alway a possibility of fraud, but how much does it take to raise a reasonable suspicion?

12 of the 22 people who voted in this poll believe there's cause for suspicion.

They probably believe suspicion's reasonable.

They probably believe the reason their suspicions are reasonable is based upon the historical evidence that human beings have a weakness for theft, fraud, deceit, imbezzlement, whenever large amounts of money are inv... [ More ]

Reply #41

KY Floyd — Sun, 16 Jul 2006 03:42:24 GMT

Regardless of what you might find, there's alway a possibility of fraud, but how much does it take to raise a reasonable suspicion? There are all sorts of anomalies you could look for, but the nature of probability is that *anything* is possible, so just the occurrence of something improbable isn't enough to prove there's something other than the normal workings of probability going on.

Many years ago New Jersey drew the same pick 3 number two days in a row and made a big deal out of investi... [ More ]

Reply #40

pumpi76 — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:19:36 GMT

I doubt that states are rigging or tricking the games...I looked up rigging in the dictionary but didn't find the definition...The state don't need to trick people because there is something called: pre-testing, which i think all states do (for pick3 pick4), that itself is playing with the possible history of the game...If the states can rig pick3, i believe so could someone in the outside...The thing about RnG is that the designer will have an advantage over everyone else, and I am in for t... [ More ]

Reply #39

orangeman — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 16:36:41 GMT

There is high irony in this issue. Law-makers are bashing the online casinos while representing states that might be even more corrupt. The online casinos only use numbers drawn by the states that pick the numbers. They have no influence over the selection process. The states, on the other hand, may or may not be manipulating the drawings. Very interesting. Just remember the Texas Lottery's initials, TLC, don't mean Tender Loving Care . . .

Orangeman

Reply #38

Just6ntlc — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:38:49 GMT

My vote is I don't play Random Number Generated games like Fantasy 5, Pick 3, and Daily Derby in CA. The only games I play are ball drawn games although there's a slight chance I play Quick Picks.

Reply #37

konane — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:47:28 GMT

Quote: Originally posted by Rick G on July 14, 2006 Remember when your Dad put a quarter in his hand and put his hands behind his back and asked What hand is it in? You picked one hand but the quarter was always in the other hand. Never could guess it right. After a while the old man wanted to play that game on you again and you said, No way...it's a boring game because you always win and I hate you! And you stomped up to your room never wanting to play the hidden quarter game again...not ev... [ More ]

Reply #36

Rip Snorter — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:21:24 GMT

Ineresting story.

Also interesting that you knew numbers behavior well enough to spot the scam and complain about it.

A similar phenomenon finally caused me to cease playing New Mexico Roadrunner.

Watching numbers long enough a person begins to see some behaviors that will always be manifested in legitimate game draws. They might happen at different frequencies, might involve different number sets, but they always happen.

When an RNG game (or any other game) absolutely defies thos... [ More ]

Reply #35

Bryan — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:05:35 GMT

To give a perfect example of how easy it is to manipulate drawings with a so-called RNG was when they put out the game called Xtra Below is a little thing I posted about a year ago on the subject. How could there possibly be any trust when your first experience with RNG is a game they have fixed and admitted to it after being e-mailed on the subject. The fact that it was a fixed game was never listed on the website or the rules of the game or the cards to be filled out either. It only came to

Reply #34

Rip Snorter — Sat, 15 Jul 2006 00:51:12 GMT

Quote: Originally posted by stefan on July 14, 2006 Hi everybody,

I have been following this thread with objective eyes. Anyone knows that many lottery players tend to play dates , like today, the pick 3 combination 147 and pick 4 combination 0147 (14 of july[07] in any order) has been played quite heavily. So, go figure it out. I haven't had the time yet to do some investigations, but if not a single draw result in any pick 3 or pick 4 state, that uses a computer to draw the numbers, matche... [ More ]

Reply #33

stefan — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 23:11:36 GMT

Hi everybody,

I have been following this thread with objective eyes. Anyone knows that many lottery players tend to play dates , like today, the pick 3 combination 147 and pick 4 combination 0147 (14 of july[07] in any order) has been played quite heavily. So, go figure it out. I haven't had the time yet to do some investigations, but if not a single draw result in any pick 3 or pick 4 state, that uses a computer to draw the numbers, matched the exact date of the draw (day-month) at one poin... [ More ]

Reply #32

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 22:51:17 GMT

Any Indiana players care to respond to that

Reply #31

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 22:34:24 GMT

Lottobreaker:

I'll tell you this, and very little of it is BS. If I lived in a state with MM I'd be tempted to wheel the last two draw results from British Columbia 6/49.

J

Reply #30

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 22:06:04 GMT

Quote: Originally posted by lotterybraker on July 14, 2006 Ripsnorter..I hope we are having a party..I hope you nail one of those pic 5's or 2 or 3 or 4..lol..I was just saying..I have cycled both ball machines and RNG'S just for the pic 3 and pic 4 mostly..not much difference..a little more for the RNGS..which is the computer..the computers seems to want to combine numbers a little more than the ball machines..I am still trying to find the KEY to the mixing..those states I cycle has many smalle... [ More ]

Reply #29

LOTTOMIKE — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:58:17 GMT

if you bet the computerized states online thats cool.i've done it and won big money.however if you play in person in the state that is computerized they sometimes keep track of your selections and have been known to make the computer spit out a winning number that nobody bet on.thats the danger of RNG.i win online as much with RNG draws as i do ball states BUT the danger is when you bet in person in a state that has computerized draws.if a person goes and buys 486 ten times they will see that an... [ More ]

Reply #28

lotterybraker — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:50:52 GMT

Ripsnorter..I hope we are having a party..I hope you nail one of those pic 5's or 2 or 3 or 4..lol..I was just saying..I have cycled both ball machines and RNG'S just for the pic 3 and pic 4 mostly..not much difference..a little more for the RNGS..which is the computer..the computers seems to want to combine numbers a little more than the ball machines..I am still trying to find the KEY to the mixing..those states I cycle has many smaller cycles in it to make one..I just need to find the right o... [ More ]

Reply #27

LOTTOMIKE — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 21:35:45 GMT

remember at the end of scarface the movie where tony montana has an uzi and he says say hello to my lil friend and he pulls that joker out and means business.well guess what all you lying cheating states with RNG.....

SAY HELLO TO MY LIL FRIEND.......

gonna sniff out all those dirty rotten scoundrels that are cheating players left and right ain't that right doggie

Reply #26

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 20:00:42 GMT

Sounds as though your opinion on this runs counter to a more widely held one. Which doesn't make it wrong.

On the other hand, it doesn't make the people who think otherwise need any secret tunnels to hide from black helicopters..

It just means you have an opinion, no better, no worse than the rest of us do, and that you are probably an awfully trusting and gullible individual.

No harm in that.

J

Reply #25

bellyache — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:51:28 GMT

lol Mike. I know you were just joking.

Reply #24

KY Floyd — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:51:04 GMT

Among the most basic steps a state would take in running a game where the numbers are drawn by computer would be using an independent computer to draw the numbers, but if there really was a conspiracy to favor numbers that were played it would be easy enough to check the computer that manages the database and then use that information to manipulate the drawing. Of course it would have to be a widespread conspiracy because the programmer(s) would have to be involved, the person(s) dealing with th... [ More ]

Reply #23

KY Floyd — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:44:43 GMT

It would lead me to expect that we have reasonable proof that in Oregon, either the game isn't rigged or the people rigging it are extremely stupid. If you could choose the number that was drawn, would you be stupid enough to choose one that had any obvious significance? I'm guessing that on July 4th the number of people who play 1776 is a lot higher than on any other day of the year, so it certainly wouldn't be in the interest of the state to deliberately draw 1776.

As far as the probabil... [ More ]

Reply #22

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:13:00 GMT

Quote: Originally posted by lotterybraker on July 14, 2006 Well..I would like to voice my opinion on this matter..I have cycled both Ball Machines and states with RNG..I can assure you that it doesnt matter which one it is..doesnt mean onething at all..and you can use these examples ..South Carolina pic 3..5 hits in 7 days using the cycle Ball Machine..Missouri 15 hits in 22 days I think it was and they have a RNG..so it doesnt matter what they are using..numbers are cyclical..if you pic one th... [ More ]

Reply #21

LOTTOMIKE — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:47:02 GMT

oops family entertainment,i don't know if junior and pops are eating honey smacks and washing down a glass of milk saying to each other now son i'm going to tell ya about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees and bellyaches avatar,lol.just messin' with you bellyache.having a laugh.you definitely one of my favorite posters here.

Reply #20

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:46:31 GMT

Barb,

That's downright abuse. I used to abuse my kids by pulling the quarter out of the ear. They're still in therapy but the doctor says they'll come to love and trust again...it just might take a few years.

Reply #19

lotterybraker — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:45:00 GMT

Mike I might agree with you on that one..now that I noticed it..lol..

Reply #18

LOTTOMIKE — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:43:09 GMT

bellyache you have my vote for the sexiest avatar on lottery post...

maybe i need to do a new poll about it....

Reply #17

four4me — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:37:52 GMT

Quote: Originally posted by Clairvoyance on July 14, 2006 Quote: Originally posted by Rick G on July 14, 2006 Remember when your Dad put a quarter in his hand and put his hands behind his back and asked What hand is it in? You picked one hand but the quarter was always in the other hand. Never could guess it right. After a while the old man wanted to play that game on you again and you said, No way...it's a boring game because you always win and I hate you! And you stomped up to your room ne... [ More ]

Reply #16

lotterybraker — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:20:21 GMT

Well..I would like to voice my opinion on this matter..I have cycled both Ball Machines and states with RNG..I can assure you that it doesnt matter which one it is..doesnt mean onething at all..and you can use these examples ..South Carolina pic 3..5 hits in 7 days using the cycle Ball Machine..Missouri 15 hits in 22 days I think it was and they have a RNG..so it doesnt matter what they are using..numbers are cyclical..if you pic one that is in the cycle you can get it..if you pic one that is n... [ More ]

Reply #15

Clairvoyance — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:11:49 GMT

Not the Coin game! My dad used to put his hands behind his back and drop the quarter in his pocket so it was not in either hand let alone the hand you picked! A prankster he is!

Just Like PA Mid Day Draw you just can't win no mater what hand you pick

Reply #14

bellyache — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:02:15 GMT

LOL. You're all to funny.

Reply #13

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:57:12 GMT

I can't edit, but Bellyache you have my vote for the best avatar on the site! Waiting for a "male" rendition of that one now.

Reply #12

lesonook — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:55:11 GMT

delaware has computerized drawings they are definetly rigged..lesonook

Reply #11

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:54:43 GMT

Oh nuffun.

J

Reply #10

bellyache — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:52:28 GMT

I'm sorry Jack. What kind of funny are ya feeling

Reply #9

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:51:29 GMT

That is the funniest thing I've ever read here. Thanks for the observation and great laugh, Jack

Reply #8

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:48:50 GMT

Remember when your Dad put a quarter in his hand and put his hands behind his back and asked "What hand is it in?" You picked one hand but the quarter was always in the other hand. Never could guess it right. After a while the old man wanted to play that game on you again and you said, "No way...it's a boring game because you always win and I hate you!" And you stomped up to your room never wanting to play the hidden quarter game again...not even with YOUR kids.

Reply #7

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:45:14 GMT

Bellyache:

There's something about that new avatar of yours makes me feel kinda funny.

J

Reply #6

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:40:55 GMT

They have a computer system that records your bets or issues you quick picks that are recorded and when the day is over that same computer system is picking the winning numbers. C'mon...we're not that stupid. Really. We might be lottery players but there's very few stupid ones amongst us.

Reply #5

bellyache — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:28:34 GMT

I think that RNG can be rigged and maybe there are few out there that are, but I think that most states try to set up ones that pluck numbers out fairly. However, I am disappointed with my states RNG (Pick 3 and Wild Card 2) I really think something is fishy with those games. I am beginning to think I will stick to just Powerball from now on.

Reply #4

Rick G — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:27:07 GMT

Not sure on how to vote in this one. In IL we're fortunate not to have this dilemma. But there is SUCH a HUGE potential for fraud in a RNG drawing that is also distributing quick picks from the same system that there is no way I'd play an RNG drawing under any circumstances.

The only way to stop this corruption is to not contribute to it. They "say" it's a money-saving move. How much money are they really saving when their sales drop proportionately? How much does it take to maintain bal... [ More ]

Reply #3

LOTTOMIKE — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:57:04 GMT

i'd say one or two states might be fairly honest but most RNG are rigged.

Reply #2

LOTTOMIKE — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:55:33 GMT

we've certainly heard the horror stories.a member here called losingjeff has lost over 100,000 dollars and hasn't won in over five years.not even a box hit.he lives in indiana an rng state.any state that has computerized draws could easliy rig the computer to show the winning number to be whatever number was bet on least or not at all so they can bring in maximum profit.with ball drawings if a triple or quad shows they sometimes pay out millions and millions that one day and the ball draws are v... [ More ]

Reply #1

sfilippo — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:32:32 GMT

Oregon, on July 4th drew 1-7-7-6

Now, that would lead me to suspect one of two things... Either numbers have some sort of intellegence and awareness of the years of historical events, or somebody rigged that drawing.

I can't say that it's absolutely impossible that the draw would come out as it did, but I would think it would have taken a few million more draws for it to do so.

As a novice programmer, I can't help but suspect that that drawing was rigged to benefit one person, maybe two... [ More ]

The possibilities for fraud in RNG games

Rip Snorter — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:13:50 GMT

Most of us don't have the option of playing state games without playing RNG.

Everyone says they don't trust it, don't like it.

What do you really think?

J