Is the Indiana Lottery vulnerable to inside tampering?
By Kevin Leininger Fort Wayne News Sentinel
You'd think Jim Grimes would be happy.
After all, the retired Noble County engineer, whose concerns about the integrity of the Hoosier Lottery were the subject of a column in June 2004, helped spark an investigation that led to three indictments in an alleged million-dollar scam. But, if anything, Grimes is even more frustrated than he was when we first talked nearly two years ago - even though he is no longer willing to lose money to a game he still believes is rigged.
"I don't take any satisfaction from charges being filed," Grimes said from his home in Kimmell, about 35 miles northwest of Fort Wayne. "They stopped short of investigating everything we brought up."
Two years ago, the crux of Grimes' complaint was this: When the lottery in 2001 stopped using pingpong balls to select numbers and started using a computer instead, his mathematically precise method of predicting winners was no longer so successful. Using a computer, he believed, allowed lottery officials to know which numbers were being played, by how many people, and where - making it possible to limit the state's payout by manipulating the computer's supposedly "random" number selections.
Not long after my column appeared, Grimes called and said he had been in touch with two police investigators from Marion County. Would I be willing to meet with them?
No journalist could turn down an offer like that. So, a few days later, I met in The News-Sentinel offices with Grimes, Thomas Trathen of the Marion County prosecutor's office and Sgt. Michael Thayer of the Indianapolis Police Department. They seemed very interested in what Grimes had to say. They took lots of notes; we shook hands, and they left.
And nothing happened. Or so it seemed.
Then, in the first week of November 2004, a team of investigators acting under the authority of Marion County Prosecutor Carl Brizzi searched the lottery's offices in downtown Indianapolis and arrested three men on charges they had conspired to claim a scratch-off ticket worth $1 million.
Police say William C. Foreman used his inside knowledge as a lottery official to learn which retail outlet had received a winning ticket in the $2 million "Bonus Spectacular Game." Foreman then allegedly told accomplices Chad Adkins and Daniel Foltz to buy the entire supply of tickets - worth about $700 - from a store in Cross Plains.
Adkins and Foltz, both of Shelby County, redeemed the ticket, which would have paid each of them $25,000 per year for 20 years.
If they had not already agreed to plead guilty and testify against Foreman, that is. If convicted, Foreman could face up to 50 years in prison - the harshest penalty imposed by any state for breeching lottery security. Lottery Executive Director Esther Schneider, however, thinks the punishment would fit the crime.
"You're talking about someone who cheated somebody out of $1 million," she said. "It's not the same as rape or incest, but it is like Enron."
Even though the indictments are not directly linked to Grimes' contention that computer-generated winning numbers aren't really drawn randomly, Thayer said Grimes' concerns were helpful nonetheless. "When we started asking questions, other people brought other things to us," he said.
Although Grimes believes the lottery continues to manipulate numbers to limit payouts, Thayer and Schneider insist his suspicions are baseless. "We've spent $1 million on security so players know the system is fair. My integrity and reputation is invested in this," said Schneider, who took over the job a year ago.
"This was a one-time situation," Thayer said.
Grimes remains skeptical, however. If an unscrupulous lottery official could allegedly hand-pick winners, what other abuses might be possible, he wonders.
But Schneider said the security changes she's made should prevent a recurrence of what Foreman supposedly did. Access to winning numbers is more strictly controlled now, with multiple layers of oversight, and no one can see the numbers until the game is closed.
Attorney Jack Crawford, the lottery's first director, is defending Foreman against the state's "unconstitutionally" harsh penalties.
I'm sure when the common player turns on the TV when and if the balls are back, he or she will say "A lottery drawing. I haven't seen a lottery drawing in years. I'm gonna go buy a ticket". A thus will begin a resurgence in sales. And when other lotteries see that, they'll do the same. And a whole cycle of ball drawings coming back will begin.
This calls for another edition of "What Would Jimmy Do With The Lottery : Indiana Edition".
Daily 3, Daily 4 & Lucky 5
No changes.
The return of "Lotto Cash"
Pick 6 out of 49.
Jackpots start at $500,000 cash, and should grow by $100,000 by each drawing without a winner.
Drawings Tuesdays and Fridays.
Tickets are $1 each.
Prize
Odds
Match 6
CASH JACKPOT
1 : 13,983,816.0
Match 5
Avg. $3,486
1 : 54,200.8
Match 4
Avg. $66
1 : 1,032.4
Match 3
$5 Guaranteed
1 : 56.7
Match 2
Free Quick Pick
1 : 7.6
Overall Odds are about 1 in 6.6
Half of all sales go to the prize pool, and out of that prize pool exactly half goes to the jackpot. Jackpots are only paid and advertised in the lump sum value.
Draw Machines
Now the fun part, as well as the most important one. People need to know that the days corruption are over. That means hard rubber balls for the drawing, and the auditor and a security guard on-camera supervising the drawing along with the draw host. For the machines, I was thinking about the Smartplay Messenger for the Daily 3/4, and a Smartplay Criterion II for the Lucky 5 and Lotto Cash. The drawings (both midday and evening) should ideally be on major network affiliates (ABC, CBS, NBC) to ensure maximum household penetration.
I would hope it would send a message to state lotteries that for sales and for a perception of randomness that they would use ball drawings. I don't think most lotteries will hear that message though. Both the state I live in (Washington) and the next state over, Oregon are computer drawn. The only thing the legislators want is more cash from the lotteries as a lower percentage goes to the players. One wonders if it's money from Indian casino's driving it or just plain greed and stupidity.
It would be nice though for a state to show that it listens to it's players and have ball drawings.
After reviewing a lot of what the Jim's and LosingJeff have said. And doing a little research on my own I think the reputation of the incumbents is the bigger part of the picture. People in Indiana might have high regards for these people and not want to bring them to justice. I thought the governor appointed the people to the lottery commission bringing charges to bear on the acting lottery officials will most likely filter back all the way to the state house. And that group of people will definitely do everything in their power to stop any action against them.
This is one of the reasons Jim and jeff's petition for help in bringing the people to justice has hit so many dead ends. Mainly because it's not one person involved. If the whole kit and caboodle is corrupt now is the best time to expose them because of upcoming elections. Many lottery commissioners and incumbents remain in their respective positions even after new government personnel have been appointed. Finding someone to expose the corruption and get a complete picture of the goings on behind the scenes may take someone of higher authority than the governor. Which might mean going to Washington, DC? Since all avenues of approach using state officials have failed.
believe me if i was there i would be helping.i think jim,jim and jeff know this.i think these things are happening...........
1-the computerized drawing is manipulated to bring in maximum profit 2-the winning numbers on pick 3 and pick 4 are the ones no one bet on 3-lotto jackpots are driven up to big amounts to increase sales 4-winning scratch offs are bought by lottery insiders 5-a lot of player money is being embezzeled by indiana lottery personnel 6-the surprise changes with the annuity 7-winners always being confined to a certain region or area........
i would like the FBI to see that list above and bust this thing apart.
then maybe people like losingjeff and others could have a fair game to play again.
Gtech has most lottery contracts in the United States. They have in each state 2 large computers that runs the lottery in each State. Everyone is concerned about computerized drawing and want the old drawing machines back. I don't want any of them really. Why? They are all controlled, by Gtech. I live in Houston, Texas and can tell you its all corrupt. The trial for Enron is finally starting here in Houston where the Enron Headquarters went bust. Gtech ought to be the next company to go on trial. People believe that the machines and balls are random. They are not. Every terminal that tickects are purchased from are controlled by Gtech. They already know what numbers are played (your picks or their quick picks). In Texas they don't want the public to see live drawings. In beginning (1992) they have flashed the drawing on the 10:00 news here. Then the Texas lotteryofficals announced that the announcer of the winning balls would be correct even if the balls that fell where different. Now we get the numbers flashed on the news without seeing the drawing at all. Why all this secrecy? Texas lottery officials will tell you that its cheaper than a live drawing. As for scratch off's Scientific games is Texas largest venor in Texas and Gtech distributes the tickets to the 16,000 vendors here. Scienticfic and Gtech know where the winning tickets are going in Texas, is that why certain retailers always have the big winners?
The people of these United States don't really have anyone to lobby in their state for them concerning the Lottery Games, rules and regulations. If you want honest and fair games, you need to form a Lottery Union to represent the people. Your dollars are donated to your state and you really don't have the say as to what games, computerized or machines, what the payout will be. There also needs to be a tracking system by each congressional representive to how many vendors in their district, how many sales generated by each vendor, and how many winners in that district. The tracking needs to show if the people winning actually live in that district. This will then open the door to honest lottery. Some retailers seem to get the big hits over and over again on scratch off tickets. This should send a big signal that something is wrong with the distribution of the winning scratch off tickets. As for the online games their needs also a tracking system for total number of vendors and their actual sales in each congressional district, with the winners zip code in relation to the zip code of each vendor. Tracking where the money goes it important for open and honest games. Why can't we have live drawings and let the last winners of the bigger games hand draw the winning balls? It is said the hand is quicker than the eye and I say the machine is quicker than the eye and hand. When are we going to demand honest and fair drawings?
I understand your concerns about the fairness of lottery drawings, but I totally disagree with you that Gtech somehow controls all the mechanical ball drawings. I'm not saying that they can't be rigged (and they have), but to say that all the mechanical drawings are systemmatically rigged defies logic and reason.
There seems to be some misconception about scratch offs ticket being distributed equally among states. Granted that is a problem but places that sell or get more larger winning tickets than other places boils down to sales. Some places might sell 100,000 scratch off a week while other places might not sell 300 scratchers a week. It stands to reason that the places selling the larger amount of tickets might get more top tier winning packets than places that sell fewer tickets because the bigger sales places are getting a higher percentage of the total package of tickets. It is not uncommon to hear that certain places sold more winning tickets than some rinky dinky candy store, deli or neighborhood tavern. Considering millions of scratch off tickets are printed there is no way that every place that sells tickets is going to sell a top tier winner or second place winner. The small places that do get larger tier winning tickets can feel lucky that they purchased a packet of tickets with a winner.
We have a local grocer who is the leading sales scratcher ticket seller in the state he is probably getting like 100 packs of tickets if not more every week for every scratch game he sells. Compared to the local candy store who might only sell 3 books of scratchers for a whole month and is selling limited supply of the total amount of scratch games..
Why haven't any of the lottery higher-ups stepped up to admit that computerized drawings have way too many loopholes? Whether they are secure or not or corrupt or not, the fact of the matter is that RNG's can be manipulated and hacked. And no one will know, and there will be no way to prove it. It's the computer age! Jeez!
Plus we all love to see the little ping pong balls bouncing around...so much more fun!
Your question is certainly a logical one. We've wondered the same thing many times, and the answer is just now becoming clear.
You might have read the story about William Foreman's upcoming sentencing hearing, where he's looking at a possible fifty-year term for his part in the scratch-off ticket scandal. He's charged with violating a state law which prohibits disclosing "confidential lottery information."
In this particular instance, the charge is likely justified. The sentence, however, is not. Mr. Foreman is sixty years old, so this harsh penalty equates to life in prison for him.
Our new lottery director, Esther Schneider, has said she wants to see the book thrown at Foreman. A fifty-year sentence is not enough, according to her. She is determined, she says, to bring integrity back to the Hoosier Lottery.
Now, it's not that I forgive Foreman for what he's done; it's more a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils. Mr. Foreman committed a serious crime but, overall, his crime pales in comparison to the frauds perpetrated by his corrupt superiors, and those are the people we're really after.
Four4me is correct; there are people involved in this scandal who apparently hold very high positions within our state government. LosingJeff and I have discussed the possibility that it could reach as high as the governor's office. We already know of three state representatives who were aware of these problems before the scratch-off ticket scandal went public, so we're relatively certain this is why our attorney general is protecting the Hoosier Lottery.
The severe penalty for "Disclosing Confidential Lottery Information" serves only to promote secrecy and deception in a public agency which should otherwise be a fishbowl; completely transparent and open to the minutest forms of public scrutiny.
The problem, as I see it, is that our legislature is hopelessly shortsighted, and they never bothered to clearly define the term, "Confidential Information." Given that, this law can be made to apply to anything; any type of technical violation, no matter how trivial, could be construed as divulgence. An hourly employee of the Hoosier Lottery who discusses her duties with her girlfriend could be charged with the same crime and face the identical fifty-year sentence
Ms. Schneider is planning to hold Mr. Foreman's bloody head up before her remaining subjects as a warning: "This is what happens to people who talk!" We can't allow that to happen, so if we can use our evidence to help demonstrate that Mr. Foreman should be granted immunity for spilling his guts, then that's what we'll do. It's likely that he has much more information to share.
So buckle up and keep your hands in the car at all times, folks; this is about to get really ugly ...
Winning scratch off according to whose record for sales? Gtech records that the State is given. Enron gave impressive information, Arthur Anderson gave accounting information, and the law Firm Vinson and Elkins gave information. Was the information truthful. Aruthur Anderson is out of business. You nor I can prove what the acutal sales of one vendor over another really is. Giving some retailers the big tier scratch offs because we are told they sell more tickets is another make believe story, like Enron. If honest distribution is going on fromt the very begining then every retailer should have an equal chance of selling big tier winners. Not the case from the beginning. Since there is no public tracking system in place to show that their is no corruption involved one can only go by what they are told. Investors where told Enron was doing well, keep buying the stock when the people in charge knew it was all a lie. Scratch off tickets are placed in every license vendor store. Every vendor even the small vendors should have the same opportunity to receive big tier winning scratch off tickets. To place them where certain vendors get them will definitely increase sales for those vendors. Honest, fair no the lottery system in America is not honest or fair. I don't believe. Believe contains the words I live lie.
The people of these United States don't really have anyone to lobby in their state for them concerning the Lottery Games, rules and regulations. If you want honest and fair games, you need to form a Lottery Union to represent the people. Your dollars are donated to your state and you really don't have the say as to what games, computerized or machines, what the payout will be. There also needs to be a tracking system by each congressional representive to how many vendors in their district, how many sales generated by each vendor, and how many winners in that district. The tracking needs to show if the people winning actually live in that district. This will then open the door to honest lottery. Some retailers seem to get the big hits over and over again on scratch off tickets. This should send a big signal that something is wrong with the distribution of the winning scratch off tickets. As for the online games their needs also a tracking system for total number of vendors and their actual sales in each congressional district, with the winners zip code in relation to the zip code of each vendor. Tracking where the money goes it important for open and honest games. Why can't we have live drawings and let the last winners of the bigger games hand draw the winning balls? It is said the hand is quicker than the eye and I say the machine is quicker than the eye and hand. When are we going to demand honest and fair drawings?
Lottery players don't need a union to support which allegedly gives us a voice.
We already have a very loud lobbying voice here on Lottery Post and a means to get the information out to the public which is the internet.
As individuals we are no longer helpless as we may have been lead to believe we are.
Dogged persistence and hard work are getting press attention, attention by authorities ...... because the voice is loud enough that it will not be shushed.
While I appreciate the Lottery Post and Dawn Nettles of the Lottoreport, everyone who donates their money should have a fair shot at the pot. This is not the case in America. When the people of the District of Columbia went to the press and said if we don't have a winner (meaning the black people who had been supporting their lottery but never won the big money then quess what the pot hit in a black community!) Honest and fairness is not the lottery games of this country. Lie corruption and deceit are the rules of this game. Elected officals, commissioners, and the companys that operate the lottery in America know exactly what is going on. That why they use confidentialy, trade secrets, ect to justify telling the paying public the truth. Their is not one body that the people can turn to for a honest tracking system on the lottery games by state. Truth does not have to be hidden only untruths. Ask all the employees of Enron, Arthur Anderson that lost their jobs, retirement ect and tell me again we don't need a Union or some type of body to track lottery information and present it to the paying public. Oh and for those that believe the machines are random why does the games with 5 numbers always have idential repeat winnners? Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.
If anyone has any questions regarding security measures, pre and post drawing tests, rotation and retirement of ballsets and machines, all they have to do is inquire from their state lottery as to how and when it is done. Each state varies as to how that information is disseminated but it should be available as a matter of public disclosure.
Yes, I believe that ball lottery draws are random and that just because someone doesn't win it doesn't mean that they were purposefully excluded from the jackpot.
Buying a lottery ticket is buying a chance at winning all or part of a jackpot.
Buying a ticket never automatically guarantees that a person will win or owns by default any portion of that jackpot.
After a few days I've decided to add my 2 cents to this thread. Sorry if it's a bit long.
First kudos to Jim for his efforts. (By the way...how did they cut the numbers off the bottom of that mug shot?)
(IMHO) Jim is entirely correct with regard to Ms Schneider's intentions. (Again IMHO) She has no intention of reforming the Hoosier Lottery which she herself admits needs reforming. She has every intention of mounting a public relations campaign aimed at (1) making it seem the Hoosier Lottery is being reformed and (2) promoting herself as the chief reformer. A quote from her letter to me dated December 28, 2005 (Bolded words are mine):
"I don't shy away from the fact there were many credibility and integrity issues at the Hoosier Lottery prior to my appointment in mid January 2005. In an attempt to correct a litany of problems, the following are just a few of the changes the Lottery has made since my arrival: instituted stringent ticket handling policies; implimented critical pre-employment and employment screenings; restructured departments and reduced staff; created an internal affairs department; installed a new camera and monitoring system and has agressively started to prosecuted employees, retail clerks and players accussed of defrauding the system."
Now this may sound good to some of you but it is absolutely meaningless when it comes to the main issues. One of which has been mentioned many times here on Lottery Post. i.e. the Random Number Generator (RNG). Another quote from the same letter:
"Moving on to the issue of the random number generator (RNG). Most states have moved away from ball drawing machines because of thier propensity for human error and corrpution, such was the case in Lousiana and Pennsylvania, respectively. The RNG program used by the Hoosier Lottery is certified by Gaming Labratory, Intrnational, an independent and accredited company that certifies all lotteries worldwide and also certifies many casinos internationally."
She then goes on to discuss the actuall drawing process and I will post those remarks if anyone wants to read them. She then concludes that section of the letter with:
"It should be noted that the RNG is as reliable or perhaps more reliable than the ball machines which have to go through their own certification process to see that all the balls are actually in the machines, that none weigh more than others, that there is no foreign substance on any of the balls, etc."
So the bottom line is this...despite it's unpopularity with the players, the computerized RNG at the Hoosier Lottery is here to stay. She absolutely refuses to take the single biggest step towards lottery reform.
Now again some of you may not think this is such a big deal. But I feel compelled to remind you all that not only does the Hoosier Lottery use a computerized RNG for it's drawings...the actual drawings are conducted in secret and not available to the general public. (NOTE: the Hoosier Lottery maintains that any citizen can come to Indianapolis and witness a drawing. And in fact the Executive director director invited me to Indianapolis for a tour:
"However, in addition to addressing your concerns, this is an excellent opportunity for me to personally invite you to tour our operation in Indianapolis. Touring our operation will provide you with first-hand knowledge and a clear understanding of the dramatic security changes that have been made over the past nine months as oppossed to reading disenchanted players' blogs that are based solely on emotions and not facts."
(NOTE: Take that Jim and Jeff! You are simply disenchanted players relying on emotions and not facts!)
Now let's get back to the subject of secret drawings. Hoosier Lottery drawings are not televised. And once again the Executive Director is committed to not televising them:
"As far as televising the drawings, the Hoosier Lottery would be most egregious. However, such is the case nationwide, television stations will not provide this service without an enormous fee and one a state agency simply cannot afford and maintain profits to the citizens of Indiana."
So not only will we continue to have computerized drawing...but they will continue to hold them in secret.
In addition to this the practice of blocking numbers will continue. As I've said before I work for a retailer who sells Hoosier Lottery tickets. I have been checking every day and what I have found is amazing. Every day that I have looked, the number 9999 has been blocked from the Pick 4 Evening game. That's every single day for over 2 weeks. Yesterday I looked at 10:30 AM and indeed 9999 was blocked for that night's draw. What does the Executive Director have to say about blocked numbers:
"Being a state agency and having a fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers (Insert NOTE: NOT the players) of Indiana, the Hoosier Lottery does indeed limit the number of players betting on a specific sequence of numbers each draw. Again if you have properly researched individual states' websites as oppossed to reading blogs, you are aware that most states with smaller populations and lower on-line play also limit their liability."
In another thread four4me got a response from someone at the Hoosier Lottery that said there was a $2 million liability. Now keep this in mind. If that were true, there would have to be 400 people in the state of Indiana all betting 9999 for the Daily 4 Evening game by 10:30 AM for it to warrant being cut off. And remember 9999 has been cut off every day for more than 2 weeks so that means 400 people a day for more than 2 weeks straight would have to be betting that number.
But that's not what the Executive Director is saying. The Executive Director is saying that they limit certain numbers because they have low on line play and if those numbers were to hit they wouldn't be able to pay them. Why? Because if they actually pay out a prize they won't be able to make a profit! So the bottom line is this...in order to insure that they never have to pay out on 9999...they simply block people from playing it. Now if that isn't the definition of a rigged game you tell me what is!
Finally, in respone to my question about the reduced jackpot payout and the extended annuity period...she bundled that together with my complaint about the disclaimer on the back of Hoosier Lottery tickets requiring all winners to meet with the press and lottery public relations people and said this:
"While you may not agree that a lottery has the right to advertise winners or to restructure annuity payouts based on interest rates, these poilicies are within the rights of each lottery, dictated by each states' legislative authority. In fact, most state lotteries operate solely by legislative authority and can regulate specific game payouts, such as the case with Indiana's Hoosier Lotto."
So the bottom line is (according to her) they are simply following state law.
Now I know some of you will not think any of this is all that bad. But put it all together and it amounts to ths:
As stated earlier in this thread, the Hoosier Lottery is simply a cash cow for the states. They don't give a damn about the players. They will continue to conduct computerized drawings (despite their unpopularity), they will continue to conduct secret drawings (despite state law), they will continue to block numbers (so they don't have to pay out prizes), they continue to will change the rules, payouts, annuity times and anything else they so desire, at any time without notice and they will continue to exploit the winners shamelessly by forcing them to meet with the press, lottery public relations personal and be signing an agreement giving the Hoosier Lottery lifetime rights to the winner's name, photograph and comments.
The Hoosier Lottery is indeed a cash cow for the state of Indiana. And the players? Well they are nothing more than sheep to sheared and lambs to be slaughtered. They can play the game but they have absolutely no rights whatsoever.
I have stopped playing all Hoosier Lottery games (except for Powerball which is not under their control). I encourage everyone else to do the same until some kind of meaningful reform (not some Stalinesque show trial) is actually implimented.
For me what is sad about the Oregon lottery is that they took the easy way out. The lottery says the machines cost, the balls need to be cared for, the t.v. stations want us to pay to put the draws on. Every body else is going to computerization so lets join them and the players lose out. Forget the players we are only going to do what the laws says and that is if we feel like it. I only play powerball on a regular basis and if they go to a computerized drawing I will probably find the casino more often then the lottery. Once the ball drawings are all gone for me so will the fun and magic of watching the draws and the feeling you get when you see that you have won.-weshar75
"Being a state agency and having a fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers (Insert NOTE: NOT the players) of Indiana, the Hoosier Lottery does indeed limit the number of players betting on a specific sequence of numbers each draw. Again if you have properly researched individual states' websites as oppossed to reading blogs, you are aware that most states with smaller populations and lower on-line play also limit their liability."
I noticed she didn't mention the 288 numbers which have been essentially removed from the field in the Pick-3 game since 1999. It should be noted that we have researched other state lotteries' websites; a comparison between the Hoosier Lottery and other state lotteries comprises an entire section of our evidence file. The irony lies in the fact that Indiana state law requires the Hoosier lottery to make these very same comparisons in order to ensure a competitive game (see below):
IC 4-30-3-5 Commission Studies
Sec. 5 The commission shall make a continuing study of the following:
(1) The lottery, in order to ascertain any amendments necessary to this article or to rules adopted under this article that could prevent any abuses in the administration of the lottery (Yeah, well, that ship has sailed, I'm afraid).
(2) The operation and administration of similar lottery laws in other states and of federal laws that may affect the lottery (We already ignore the laws which were written to govern our operations; what do we care what the Feds think?)
(3) The reaction of the public to existing and potential features of the lottery (Like we care!).
I've requested the results of these studies many times, but my requests go unanswered, because this happens to be one of those laws which is not convenient for the Hoosier Lottery, and so they simply choose to ignore it, along with the one that guarantees us a public drawing.
Ms. Schneider is correct when she says that smaller states with more successful lotteries also limit their liability; they do indeed. They also make it a point to do it legally, setting those liability limits down in writing and making sure the general public is aware of where to find them, something the Hoosier Lottery refuses to do. I've made several requests asking where this $2M limit is written but, again, no answers are forthcoming, because we have no liability limit. Rather than adopt such a fair and open policy, the Hoosier Lottery regularly alludes to these fictitious limits, but prefers instead to actively track player selections as they're being sold. This allows them to cut off any number they want at any time they want, regardless of ticket sales.
I remain convinced that their RNG is connected to their central database which keeps track of player selections. This is the only way to explain all of the Pick-4 payouts of three or four thousand dollars a day in a state of six million people whose lottery routinely boasts of record ticket sales, but then defends their low payouts with claims that no one is buying their tickets, and because the smaller lotteries such as those in Delaware, Virginia and South Carolina have the advantage of attracting more players from their numerous border states.
Now, back to liability limits.
The following is an excerpt from the minutes of the January 7, 2002 meeting of the South Carolina Educational Lottery:
Liability Limits/ Multi-Digit Games
"Mr. Rhodes explained a phenomenon that occurs in a multi-digit game when a very large proportion of players select the same combination of numbers, which could result in a large payout. Unless specifically controlled, SCEL could experience a net loss for a significant period of time. To avoid this phenomenon, lotteries may restrict the selection of the same combination of numbers after a certain level has been reached, thereby controlling the liability of the lottery. Staff surveyed seventeen state lotteries regarding their practices and found that none have performed a mathematical analysis, but subjectively set a level of liability that seems reasonable and which may be adjusted. Staff recommended that SCEL use a $3.5 million liability limit for its 3-digit game, which is similar to the average of other lotteries."
That's what a mandated liability limit looks like, so now if you ever see one, you'll be able to identify it.
Indiana's fictional liability limit of $2 million is apparently still below average. If they're going to pretend to have a liability limit, the Hoosier Lottery should adopt an imaginary five million-dollar limit for their Daily-3 game, and then advertise it as the highest in the nation (the fact that it's not real will remain our little secret; just toss it on the pile with the rest).
I don't want to encourage Ms. Schneider to break the law (like it would matter), but such a policy would increase ticket sales.
i remain convinced that this is just waiting to fall into the right persons hands and then this thing will explode.they just CAN'T keep getting away with this.i think they are pushing the limits but they are doing it in a very sneaky underhanded way.using it to their advantage and bending their own rules as they go.but nothing last forever and the day of reckoning will dawn..........
The playing people of every state do have power to force change. This change will come when we force with petitions on voting day in each state. What needs to happen is for the people of each state to force the issues on the Statewide elections. Force the State to return to machine games (I'd prefer the last winners draw the balls in a public setting like a football stadium or basketball, soccer ect.) The State does not want hand drawings? Why one might ask? Well, they said because it would be corrupt. Hey thats a big joke! The money is controlled that's why. The machines and balls, and computerized generation is corrupt. The hidden drawings, the pretest drawings are not viewed here in Texas unless you go to Austin. Now is it fair to all people of the State that only one location for the drawings occurs? Force legislation can change this. When there is corruption in a billion dollar a year enterprise, you can bet there is good cause for not having live drawings. The lottery officals and Commissioners are tied into Gtech Corporation. The State Legislators are given money by Gtech for their elections. Gtech controls all terminals and all numbers played, whether you pick them or their corrupt terminals do. Par mutual wagering is what is keeping the lottery corrupt. The tier structure is what limits the State intake and payout to the players. It should have been out dated a long time ago.
I want to respond to something four4me said earlier in this thread because I think it's important for Lottery Post members to understand why so many of us think the Hoosier Lottery is rigged.
The point four4me made (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that larger volume retailers can expect to have more top tier prizes because they sell more tickets. I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. It stands to reason that if tickets are distrubuted randomly someone who gets 10,000 tickets will have a better chance of getting a large winner than someone who only gets 100 ticlets.
The point some of us are trying to make is that (again IMHO) the distribution of Hoosier Lottery scratch off tickets is anything but random. It is (IMHO) predetermined by the Hoosier Lottery. They decide...that is to say they make a conscience and deliberate decision as to where the winners go.
Consider this:
The Hoosier Lottery website lists scratch off winners of $100,000 by county. The following numbers come directly from their website:
Once again Marion County (Indianapolis) is far and away the leader in top tier prizes with a total of 46 winners of $100,000 or more. (By the way these figure exclude those people who won a chance to appear on the now defunct Hoosier Millioniare show and won money there.) Marion County has a population of approximately 863,000 people.
Taking 2 large counties in Indiana...Lake County and Allen County...with a combined total of approximately 833,000 people you have a total of 17 top tier winners. (8 in Lake and 7 in Allen.) These 2 counties have only approximately 30,000 less people than Marion County yet Marion County has 3 times as many winners. (By the way these 2 counties are home to 3 of Indiana's largest cities...Gary, Hammond and Ft Wayne.)
Without sales figures it is impossible to tell if the people of Marion County are buying more tickets or if they are just 3 times as lucky as the residents of these other 2 counties. But one thing is for sure...Marion County gets the majority of top tier winning tickets.
Now to make matters even worse consider this:
The 21 following counties in Indiana have never in 15 1/2 years of Hoosier Lottery play had a single top tier winner:
Addimittedly these are not very populous counties. Their combined population is approximately 548,000 people. And again we have no sales figures to go by so we can only look at these facts and speculate as to the reason there has never been a top tier winner fromany of these 21 counties. But again the easy answer is...these conties have never had a top tier winning ticket.
And when you consider that Marion County (Indianapoils) has not only had far and away the most winners...but it has also had multiple top tier winners in the same game...5 players from Marion County won a combined total of $500,000 playing Bankroll and 4 players from Marion County won a combined total of $2,300,000 playing 2 Million Cash...you have to begin asking questions.
While some people may say that this proves the point four4me was making...personally, I find it impossible to believe that all these winning tickets just happened to be randomly distributed to Marion County and that the 21 aforementioned counties just happend to not get any. Not a single top tier winning ticket in 15 1/2 years. By the way I left out approximately 12 or more counties that have had only 1 top tier winner. If you factor those numbers in then what you have is roughly 1/3 of the counties in Indiana who in 15 1/2 years of play have either never had a top tier winner or have just had 1.
All any player in Indiana wants is a fair chance at winning. Pay you dollar and take you chances. But we all know that the best indicator of future behavior is past performance. Given the data...forget about the history of scandal and the last rigged scratch off game just consider the data and ask yourselves this:
Why would anyone outside of Marion County pay their dollar when they have absolutely no chance of winning at all? If you live in one of those 21 counties I mentioned the odds are worse than astronimical...they are non-existent.
If these tickets were truly distributed randomly...then one would expect that in 15 1/2 years of play...there would be a far more equitable distribution of winners state wide than the numbers show. But as with the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game the pattern remains the same...the vast bulk of the winners come from Marion County.
Is this proof the game is rigged? Is it proof that the people of Marion County buy substantially more lottery tickets than the rest of the state? Or is it proof that the people of Marion County are just a whole lot luckier than the rest of the citizens of the state? Well one thing it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that the vast bulk of top tier winning scratch off tickets go to Marion County.
And If you believe the Hooseir Lottery, this fact (coincidence?) is nothng more than brain fodder for a bunch of disgruntled losers and wild eyed conspiracy nuts.
i think the reason this thing hasn't gotten the interest it should is because a lot of people are dismissing it without looking at all the facts.the media,police,etc. all are probably thinking..."ahh just another disgruntled loser that can't handle losing".they dismiss it without truly looking into it.that and plus the fact that a lot of them are afraid for their careers or afraid to step on someone elses toes so they just ignore it outright.it isn't right.but i still say the right person is going to come along and give this the attention it deserves........
This indicates to me that someone may very well know where the tickets are before distribution, and are placed in higher populated area. The key here being that someone at the Lottery may very well know what batches contain the big tickets prior to distribution. How else could so many counties be excluded? I have always said that geography is a factor. The Daily games are no different. I seriously question the validity of the security for these scratch offs and the RNG.
Consider this. I do not know the exact sales figures for the daily 4 games yet. But, one could reason that a minimum draw would be in the $40,000 range per draw; I dont think this is unreasonable.
Using simple math, $40,000 x 24 way combo equals just under a million possible combinations. Since the odds of winning a straight or straight combo is 1:10000, wouldnt it stand to reason that dividing 960,000 by 10000 would give you the "possibility" for 4 straight winners a draw? Be more conservative. Say there is $20,000 spent per draw. Then there could be nearly 100 box winners (based on 1:460) per day and possibly 2-3 straight winners. I know there are many factors. I know these figures are a little high, but considering the fact that the Hoosier Lottery says it pays back 57 percent to its players, wouldnt a day where sales is $40,000 pay back 22,000 dollars to players?
Then why do goose eggs constantly appear in the straight winner area on the payout screen? Why can States like South Carolina(2 million less ppl) significantly outpay Indiana on each and every day? Why do these bags of tickets I have yield no winners? Why is it a coincidence that I am one off on every other draw? Why do annuities change and nobody knows about it? Why do people believe Indiana still uses ping pong balls? Why isnt there live televised drawing? Why havent I got my 57 percent back to the player? Enough said for now. I do not want to sound awful here as many of you, I know, are tired of hearing me complain. Please understand that I am on a mission to get the Balls back! I am just trying to shed some light. Please dont hold that against me.
Any person should be able to reason that the odds will be paid back to you. Not so here. The odds are literally non-existent. Wish I would have known that years ago. It has been awful to say the least. Remember this, it's one thing to predict a winner on this site. It's another thing to buy the ticket and win!
i'm behind you 100 percent.i hate the fact that those thugs who call themselves lottery officials in indiana can have a good conscience after stealing most of the players including you blind the last 5 years.been 5 long years or more or less a half a decade since the hoosier lottery suddenly figured out they could rob people blind and get away with it.i bet the people who got together and figured that out must be really proud of themselves.well lets see here we can get rid of the balls and have an RNG track all numbers played and pay out on the number played the least and rack in all the players money everyday! also we can situate all scratch offs in populated places because it wouldn't help any to put them in places where there aren't as many players.i bet in 2001 the hoosier lottery would've probably been voted as one of the best lotteries in america before the dreaded computerized takeover happened.but i think that here soon maybe the tide will turn and players can get the balls back and indiana can admit they made a mistake.is that too much to ask mr. indiana lottery director????
Once again I'd like to respond to a few things said in this thread:
First to Honorary Hoosier Lottomike...it's Ms Indiana Lottery director not Mr.
Next...to combine points made by Lottomike and WinningJeff...with regard to the numbers games many of us do believe that the Hoosier Lottery computer does indeed track the numbers played and that that information is somehow fed to the (so-called) RNG which then excludes not only the most often played combinations but also numbers that might result in a straight payout. (And once again I must point out that I have no actual factual data to support this paranoid conspiracy theory.)
As for the point about people predicting winning numbers here at Lottery Post and indeed placing bets on line and winning on the Hoosier Lottery...in support of my paranoid conspiracy theory I need to remind all of you that the numbers you pick and indeed the numbers you play NEVER go into the Hoosier Lottery computer. Your on line bets are not placed with the Hoosier Lottery so they don't go into the computer...they are not tracked...and if you win the prize is not payed out by the Hoosier Lottery.
(NOTE: I had to ask this question yesterday because I couldn't figure out why so many of you on line players were talking about winning and yet the in state payouts are always so low.)
Now...without being rude it seems entirely possible to me that WinningJeff is absolutely inept when it comes to picking numbers. But given the nature of on line betting it seems more than plausible to me that in-state bets are indeed scanned, tracked, blocked and cut off while on-line bets (again those that are never actually placed with the Hoosier Lottery) are not. Therefore, those of you playing on-line may indeed be able to consistantly pick winners while those of us in-state consistantly pick losers. The on-line betters look at the numbers...use their own systems and win. The in-state betters look at the numbers...use their own systems and lose. Why? The answer seems obvious to me...more than a bit paranoid but obvious nontheless. (Man! Oliver Stone would love this stuff!)
With regard to sales firgure...after some considerable research I was able to find some Hoosier Lottery sales figures. They were published in the annual report to the Lottery Commission but I'm afraid they're not very helpful. According to the annual report, 2005 annual sales for the Hoosier Lottery Daily 3 and Daily 4 games combined were $59.4 million. I could not find a breakdown as to how much each game accounted for or how much was Midday versus Evening. I also could not find a prize payout breakdown on those games. If anyone knows the sales figures from any other state lotteries of comparable size...please post them so we can compare.
With regard to scratch off games the numbers absolutely blew me away. The Hoosier Lottery reported a combined total sales in 2005 of $739.8 million. Scratch off sales accounted for considerably more than half of that figure coming in at $470.4 million. (Obviously the most recent off scandal hasn't hurt the Hoosier Lottery as much as their whining would have us believe.)
And again I could find no alses breakdown on the games or the geographic distribution by county that would shed any light on the winners distribution pattern. But I did find what looks like an anomaly.
St. Joseph County in Northern Indiana has a population of approximately 266,400 people. (Less than either of the aforementioned Lake or Allen Counties.) It is home to the city of South Bend and Notre Dame University. Yet St. Joseph County has had the same number of top tier winners...17...as the other counties 2 combined. One county with a population of 266,000 has the same number of winners as 2 counties with a combined population of 833,000. I also want to point out that that 266,000 is considerably less that the combined population of the 21 aforementioned counties (548,000) that have never had a top tier winner. And if one does the math one finds that the ratio of winners to population is very close to that of Marion County (Indianapolis). A ration by the way that does not stand up with any other county in the state I have checked so far. (I'm not done yet I have more counties to check.)
I have no idea what if any connection there may or may not be between St. Joseph County and the Hoosier Lottery. But it is absolutely inconceivable to me that in a "blind" system of random distribution one county could consistantly receive so many top tier prizes while other counties with larger populations (i.e. Lake and Allen) and many more counties (21 with albeit much smaller populations) consistantly get less and indeed even no top tier winners.
Once again I feel compelled to point out that I have no actual factual data that the Hoosier Lottery is rigged. All I have are observations that lead me to ask a lot of questions. But for those of you who think we're all just a bunch of disgruntle losers and wild eyed conspiracy nuts let me put it to you this way:
If you see a creature waddling down the road...and it has feathers, webbed feet and it quacks...what conclusion would you draw?
Well Done Jim! Watch you have just identified is something that never ever should happen. Proper audits and internal controls, as well as vulnerability assessments would prevent these types of problems from ever occuring; however, 16 years of no audits has gave you the result you are seeing. How did the former Director keep his job if payouts on the daily games are so bad? Why didn't he investigate these low payouts?
You are right, the scratch off figures are staggering! How is that? Probably because they take in a heck of alot more than they pay out. I am looking at a stack of 10 dollar tickets that is 1 foot high with no winners. This is ridiculous. Gosh, I wish I could have a business where I get 100 profit, dont you? Anyways, you are right about my ineptness. Too never hit a straight combo after 100 thou worth of combos is pretty bad. Jim 695 and I both discovered a long time ago that you can win on paper, but not if you spend the money. We also too our tickets and figured that the odds of hitting a pic 4 straight is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1:40000. Actually worse in my case though. So yes, inept is a good word. Jim, did you know that Indiana is 2nd in the Nation in Bankruptcies? In other words, its a part of life here. Its a no win situation.
Sorry about the mispelling above. Meant to say what in the first sentence, not watch. Its been bad lately--maybe alzheimers is setting in on me. Or maybe my brain is too overworked from counting all these losing tickets I have accumulated for years.
Every State Representives territory is broken down by population ect, and what I would like to see by each district is, the names addresses and zip code of each vendor that sells lottery and scratch off tickets. The winners zip codes. Most who win big don't want their names published. Okay lets get their zip code before they move to that big new house and compare the information with the vendors. Do all these winners live in the district that the tickets where purchased from? If I knew where the winning scratch offs were going I could go to that district and purchase all the tickets that vendor had. We have no real tracking system to the people and vendors winning. In Texas Gtech receives the scratch off tickets and does the distributing of the tickets. People need to write to their State Representive for a bill to track this money for the entire state to see. Wonder if those counties in Indiana would then get some winners that never have. Or, write up a petition and get enough signatures that the State has to put it on the ballots when you have a State wide election. The people have the power but let the State run Lottery Agency do what they want to. The commissioners have too much power. It belongs to the people of each State who play and pay to support the lottery.
You make more than a few good points in you post. I'll just respond to one:
In Indiana it doesn't matter whether or not the winner wants his/her published. By state law the Hoosier Lottery is required to publish the winner's name and county of residence.
One of the things I complained about in my initial letter to the Hoosier Lottery is that they (the Hooseir Lottery) goes beyond that for their own purposes. They shamelessly exploit all winners because they believe it motivates people (read: losers) to buy more tickets.
This disclaimer is from the back of every Hoosier Lottery ticket:
The holder of this ticket agrees to participate in interviews with Lottery public relations personnel and the media and grants permission to use his/her name, photograph, comments and image in lottery sponsored advertising and promotions.
You must sign the ticket in order to collect your prize and by so doing you give up your right to privacy forever and become another trained animal to be exhibited and exploited in the Hoosier Lottery Dog and Pony show.
(IMHO) Using the vernacular of the day...that's just wrong.
In Texas the Lottery began in1992 and everyone who won had to give their name. Now when people win its a Trust company or corporation name and you don't really know who won. Also keep in mind that Texas borders Mexico and a lot of illegal and green card holders play the lottery. The last large pot in Texas of 145,000,000 million went across the border. While they many exploit the winners names in Indiana at least you know who won. Not so in Texas. A lot of secrecy about public pooled money and we don't know who won ,or how much leaves the state each drawing. Then the State Legislators tell us that the State is 10 billion dollars in debt and need to cut services (jobs) to balance the budget. Since the citizens really don't have a tracking system that is public information without having to write Austin the Capital to get information on the lottery we are told what the Commissioner and Lottery Director wants the public to hear. Scratch tickets here are put on the Texas lottery internet page and we can see the old games, new games, coming games, and how many tickets are in each game, and every once in a while they update the claimed tickets. Seems like the big ticket games with 1 or 2 million get claimed shortly after the games starts. I am writing for a tracking system by State Districts and vendors. I don't believe the man in Indiana is the only one who knows where the winners are.
In Texas the Lottery began in1992 and everyone who won had to give their name. Now when people win its a Trust company or corporation name and you don't really know who won. Also keep in mind that Texas borders Mexico and a lot of illegal and green card holders play the lottery. The last large pot in Texas of 145,000,000 million went across the border. While they many exploit the winners names in Indiana at least you know who won. Not so in Texas. A lot of secrecy about public pooled money and we don't know who won ,or how much leaves the state each drawing. Then the State Legislators tell us that the State is 10 billion dollars in debt and need to cut services (jobs) to balance the budget. Since the citizens really don't have a tracking system that is public information without having to write Austin the Capital to get information on the lottery we are told what the Commissioner and Lottery Director wants the public to hear. Scratch tickets here are put on the Texas lottery internet page and we can see the old games, new games, coming games, and how many tickets are in each game, and every once in a while they update the claimed tickets. Seems like the big ticket games with 1 or 2 million get claimed shortly after the games starts. I am writing for a tracking system by State Districts and vendors. I don't believe the man in Indiana is the only one who knows where the winners are.
If someone is clever and digs hard enough they can come up with that information via public record. Same argument has been tossed around here .... winner seeking privacy, public seeking complete disclosure. People pay attorneys to protect their identities for reasons of safety to themselves and their families. Were you in a similar situation you might consider same too.
To my knowledge there don't seem to be any laws prohibiting people from other nations playing in any US state lotteries. Don't know of any nation in the world which would prohibit legally inflowing money.
Many years ago there was an outcry when Powerball got very high drawing money in from other countries .... don't remember who won that jackpot but figure that if someone else wanted to invest their money in the ultimate lottery player's American dream, then so be it.
Let everyone continue dream and some lucky ones realize just that.
When people buy tickets from one State and live in another their State stands to benifit from this win fall. If letting anyone play from one state to the next is good for the overall game than why not let everyone in the United States play any State Lottery without having to travel to that State? I heard that Michigan does not allow outsiders to win the pots, if anyone has information concerning this please write. When the money leaves America and goes to Mexico or any other country it hurts that State. When you win in your State and continue to live in your State than you will probably buy a new home, car, applicances ect. This is all Taxed in that State and all people of the State who played benifit. When it leaves the State than you lose that sales tax revenue. Then the legislators want you to pay more taxes, and cut jobs. In America we have lost enough jobs to other countries. Should we lose our donations to our lotteries also? As for par mutuel wagering it should have been dead long ago. Why not pick 100 tickets per pot or two hundred tickets and give the people in each state a real chance to win. The State would take in more money, their would be more winners, and less Statewide job cuts, lower taxes would result. Most States started a lottery to benifit the schools. In Texas HISD the second largest school district in Texas was 100 million short yet we have a Education fund with 7 billion plus dollars. Don't up my property taxes or cut State jobs. The lottery help keep people working. Where is the money going? Thats why every state should have a tracking system in place for the public to see. They could hold the drawings in different parts of the State at public Stadiums or any building that could hold thousands of people. Sell hot dog, cokes ect and charge 1.00 per person to come in and watch a live drawing. Draw 100 or two hundred tickets and people would pay to come. Let the previous winners hand draw the balls in a clear container, and verify all balls are present. This would give the people in each State a fair and honest chance to win. I don't want to play a game where 1 person walks away with all the money year after year. In Texas we started out with 6/50 drawings, then the commissioners changed it to 6/54, then to 5/bonus ball. The people of the State of Texas protested and they did not listen. Lost revenue and now they want to take the bonus ball out of the game and return to 6/54. Our 4 number game also has a bonus ball, and the Mega Millions with a bonus ball. Our Cash five started out 1-39 now changed to 1-37. Ohio where I was born, changed their 5 number game to 1-39 from 1-37. Gtech knows what they are doing when they push the commissioner to change games to bonus balls, or add or subtract balls. They players lose more money. The player don't have anyone to lobby for their interst in the State Lotteries. The Gaming companies do.
When people buy tickets from one State and live in another their State stands to benifit from this win fall. If letting anyone play from one state to the next is good for the overall game than why not let everyone in the United States play any State Lottery without having to travel to that State? I heard that Michigan does not allow outsiders to win the pots, if anyone has information concerning this please write. When the money leaves America and goes to Mexico or any other country it hurts that State. When you win in your State and continue to live in your State than you will probably buy a new home, car, applicances ect. This is all Taxed in that State and all people of the State who played benifit. When it leaves the State than you lose that sales tax revenue. Then the legislators want you to pay more taxes, and cut jobs. In America we have lost enough jobs to other countries. Should we lose our donations to our lotteries also? As for par mutuel wagering it should have been dead long ago. Why not pick 100 tickets per pot or two hundred tickets and give the people in each state a real chance to win. The State would take in more money, their would be more winners, and less Statewide job cuts, lower taxes would result. Most States started a lottery to benifit the schools. In Texas HISD the second largest school district in Texas was 100 million short yet we have a Education fund with 7 billion plus dollars. Don't up my property taxes or cut State jobs. The lottery help keep people working. Where is the money going? Thats why every state should have a tracking system in place for the public to see. They could hold the drawings in different parts of the State at public Stadiums or any building that could hold thousands of people. Sell hot dog, cokes ect and charge 1.00 per person to come in and watch a live drawing. Draw 100 or two hundred tickets and people would pay to come. Let the previous winners hand draw the balls in a clear container, and verify all balls are present. This would give the people in each State a fair and honest chance to win. I don't want to play a game where 1 person walks away with all the money year after year. In Texas we started out with 6/50 drawings, then the commissioners changed it to 6/54, then to 5/bonus ball. The people of the State of Texas protested and they did not listen. Lost revenue and now they want to take the bonus ball out of the game and return to 6/54. Our 4 number game also has a bonus ball, and the Mega Millions with a bonus ball. Our Cash five started out 1-39 now changed to 1-37. Ohio where I was born, changed their 5 number game to 1-39 from 1-37. Gtech knows what they are doing when they push the commissioner to change games to bonus balls, or add or subtract balls. They players lose more money. The player don't have anyone to lobby for their interst in the State Lotteries. The Gaming companies do.
And your lotto is going back to 6/54. I like that decision.
No journalist could turn down an offer like that. So, a few days later, I met in The News-Sentinel offices with Grimes, Thomas Trathen of the Marion County prosecutor's office and Sgt. Michael Thayer of the Indianapolis Police Department. They seemed very interested in what Grimes had to say. They took lots of notes; we shook hands, and they left.
I think Grimes is onto something here that I hadn't even considered with computerized drawings.
It would be possible to skew the results of a drawing if it were known which combinations were picked, thus preventing a jackpot from being won.
Especially if some unscrupulous person had this knowledge.
Computerized drawings should be banned outright.
I'm sure when the common player turns on the TV when and if the balls are back, he or she will say "A lottery drawing. I haven't seen a lottery drawing in years. I'm gonna go buy a ticket". A thus will begin a resurgence in sales. And when other lotteries see that, they'll do the same. And a whole cycle of ball drawings coming back will begin.
I think Grimes is onto something here that I hadn't even considered with computerized drawings.
It would be possible to skew the results of a drawing if it were known which combinations were picked, thus preventing a jackpot from being won.
Especially if some unscrupulous person had this knowledge.
Computerized drawings should be banned outright.
We've been railing against computerized drawings on here for a very long time...
Please sign the petition against this manipulative method of number selection.
DD
This calls for another edition of "What Would Jimmy Do With The Lottery : Indiana Edition".
Daily 3, Daily 4 & Lucky 5
No changes.
The return of "Lotto Cash"
Pick 6 out of 49.
Jackpots start at $500,000 cash, and should grow by $100,000 by each drawing without a winner.
Drawings Tuesdays and Fridays.
Tickets are $1 each.
Overall Odds are about 1 in 6.6
Half of all sales go to the prize pool, and out of that prize pool exactly half goes to the jackpot. Jackpots are only paid and advertised in the lump sum value.
Draw Machines
Now the fun part, as well as the most important one. People need to know that the days corruption are over. That means hard rubber balls for the drawing, and the auditor and a security guard on-camera supervising the drawing along with the draw host. For the machines, I was thinking about the Smartplay Messenger for the Daily 3/4, and a Smartplay Criterion II for the Lucky 5 and Lotto Cash. The drawings (both midday and evening) should ideally be on major network affiliates (ABC, CBS, NBC) to ensure maximum household penetration.
Geez! What a mug on that guy!
That picture should be hanging in the post office ...
I would hope it would send a message to state lotteries that for sales and for a perception of randomness that they would use ball drawings. I don't think most lotteries will hear that message though. Both the state I live in (Washington) and the next state over, Oregon are computer drawn. The only thing the legislators want is more cash from the lotteries as a lower percentage goes to the players. One wonders if it's money from Indian casino's driving it or just plain greed and stupidity.
It would be nice though for a state to show that it listens to it's players and have ball drawings.
After reviewing a lot of what the Jim's and LosingJeff have said. And doing a little research on my own I think the reputation of the incumbents is the bigger part of the picture. People in Indiana might have high regards for these people and not want to bring them to justice. I thought the governor appointed the people to the lottery commission bringing charges to bear on the acting lottery officials will most likely filter back all the way to the state house. And that group of people will definitely do everything in their power to stop any action against them.
This is one of the reasons Jim and jeff's petition for help in bringing the people to justice has hit so many dead ends. Mainly because it's not one person involved. If the whole kit and caboodle is corrupt now is the best time to expose them because of upcoming elections. Many lottery commissioners and incumbents remain in their respective positions even after new government personnel have been appointed. Finding someone to expose the corruption and get a complete picture of the goings on behind the scenes may take someone of higher authority than the governor. Which might mean going to Washington, DC? Since all avenues of approach using state officials have failed.
believe me if i was there i would be helping.i think jim,jim and jeff know this.i think these things are happening...........
1-the computerized drawing is manipulated to bring in maximum profit
2-the winning numbers on pick 3 and pick 4 are the ones no one bet on
3-lotto jackpots are driven up to big amounts to increase sales
4-winning scratch offs are bought by lottery insiders
5-a lot of player money is being embezzeled by indiana lottery personnel
6-the surprise changes with the annuity
7-winners always being confined to a certain region or area........
i would like the FBI to see that list above and bust this thing apart.
then maybe people like losingjeff and others could have a fair game to play again.
Gtech has most lottery contracts in the United States. They have in each state 2 large computers that runs the lottery in each State. Everyone is concerned about computerized drawing and want the old drawing machines back. I don't want any of them really. Why? They are all controlled, by Gtech. I live in Houston, Texas and can tell you its all corrupt. The trial for Enron is finally starting here in Houston where the Enron Headquarters went bust. Gtech ought to be the next company to go on trial. People believe that the machines and balls are random. They are not. Every terminal that tickects are purchased from are controlled by Gtech. They already know what numbers are played (your picks or their quick picks). In Texas they don't want the public to see live drawings. In beginning (1992) they have flashed the drawing on the 10:00 news here.
Then the Texas lotteryofficals announced that the announcer of the winning balls would be correct even if the balls that fell where different. Now we get the numbers flashed on the news without seeing the drawing at all. Why all this secrecy? Texas lottery officials will tell you that its cheaper than a live drawing. As for scratch off's Scientific games is Texas largest venor in Texas and Gtech distributes the tickets to the 16,000 vendors here. Scienticfic and Gtech know where the winning tickets are going in Texas, is that why certain retailers always have the big winners?
This is going to get ugly really quick, or its going to stall and disappear......Hopefully someone will want to follow the money trail...
The people of these United States don't really have anyone to lobby in their state for them concerning the Lottery Games, rules and regulations. If you want honest and fair games, you need to form a Lottery Union to represent the people. Your dollars are donated to your state and you really don't have the say as to what games, computerized or machines, what the payout will be. There also needs to be a tracking system by each congressional representive to how many vendors in their district, how many sales generated by each vendor, and how many winners in that district. The tracking needs to show if the people winning actually live in that district. This will then open the door to honest lottery. Some retailers seem to get the big hits over and over again on scratch off tickets. This should send a big signal that something is wrong with the distribution of the winning scratch off tickets. As for the online games their needs also a tracking system for total number of vendors and their actual sales in each congressional district, with the winners zip code in relation to the zip code of each vendor. Tracking where the money goes it important for open and honest games. Why can't we have live drawings and let the last winners of the bigger games hand draw the winning balls? It is said the hand is quicker than the eye and I say the machine is quicker than the eye and hand. When are we going to demand honest and fair drawings?
richwood,
I understand your concerns about the fairness of lottery drawings, but I totally disagree with you that Gtech somehow controls all the mechanical ball drawings. I'm not saying that they can't be rigged (and they have), but to say that all the mechanical drawings are systemmatically rigged defies logic and reason.
We have a local grocer who is the leading sales scratcher ticket seller in the state he is probably getting like 100 packs of tickets if not more every week for every scratch game he sells. Compared to the local candy store who might only sell 3 books of scratchers for a whole month and is selling limited supply of the total amount of scratch games..
Why haven't any of the lottery higher-ups stepped up to admit that computerized drawings have way too many loopholes? Whether they are secure or not or corrupt or not, the fact of the matter is that RNG's can be manipulated and hacked. And no one will know, and there will be no way to prove it. It's the computer age! Jeez!
Plus we all love to see the little ping pong balls bouncing around...so much more fun!
Lottolady24:
Your question is certainly a logical one. We've wondered the same thing many times, and the answer is just now becoming clear.
You might have read the story about William Foreman's upcoming sentencing hearing, where he's looking at a possible fifty-year term for his part in the scratch-off ticket scandal. He's charged with violating a state law which prohibits disclosing "confidential lottery information."
In this particular instance, the charge is likely justified. The sentence, however, is not. Mr. Foreman is sixty years old, so this harsh penalty equates to life in prison for him.
Our new lottery director, Esther Schneider, has said she wants to see the book thrown at Foreman. A fifty-year sentence is not enough, according to her. She is determined, she says, to bring integrity back to the Hoosier Lottery.
Now, it's not that I forgive Foreman for what he's done; it's more a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils. Mr. Foreman committed a serious crime but, overall, his crime pales in comparison to the frauds perpetrated by his corrupt superiors, and those are the people we're really after.
Four4me is correct; there are people involved in this scandal who apparently hold very high positions within our state government. LosingJeff and I have discussed the possibility that it could reach as high as the governor's office. We already know of three state representatives who were aware of these problems before the scratch-off ticket scandal went public, so we're relatively certain this is why our attorney general is protecting the Hoosier Lottery.
The severe penalty for "Disclosing Confidential Lottery Information" serves only to promote secrecy and deception in a public agency which should otherwise be a fishbowl; completely transparent and open to the minutest forms of public scrutiny.
The problem, as I see it, is that our legislature is hopelessly shortsighted, and they never bothered to clearly define the term, "Confidential Information." Given that, this law can be made to apply to anything; any type of technical violation, no matter how trivial, could be construed as divulgence. An hourly employee of the Hoosier Lottery who discusses her duties with her girlfriend could be charged with the same crime and face the identical fifty-year sentence
Ms. Schneider is planning to hold Mr. Foreman's bloody head up before her remaining subjects as a warning: "This is what happens to people who talk!" We can't allow that to happen, so if we can use our evidence to help demonstrate that Mr. Foreman should be granted immunity for spilling his guts, then that's what we'll do. It's likely that he has much more information to share.
So buckle up and keep your hands in the car at all times, folks; this is about to get really ugly ...
Winning scratch off according to whose record for sales? Gtech records that the State is given. Enron gave impressive information, Arthur Anderson gave accounting information, and the law Firm Vinson and Elkins gave information. Was the information truthful. Aruthur Anderson is out of business. You nor I can prove what the acutal sales of one vendor over
another really is. Giving some retailers the big tier scratch offs because we are told they sell more tickets is another make believe story, like Enron.
If honest distribution is going on fromt the very begining then every retailer should have an equal chance of selling big tier winners. Not the case from the beginning. Since there is no public tracking system in place to show that their is no corruption involved one can only go by what they are told. Investors where told Enron was doing well, keep buying the stock when the people in charge knew it was all a lie. Scratch off tickets are placed in every license vendor store. Every vendor even the small vendors should have the same opportunity to receive big tier winning scratch off tickets. To place them where certain vendors get them will definitely increase sales for those vendors. Honest, fair no the lottery system in America is not honest or fair. I don't believe. Believe contains the words I live lie.
The people of these United States don't really have anyone to lobby in their state for them concerning the Lottery Games, rules and regulations. If you want honest and fair games, you need to form a Lottery Union to represent the people. Your dollars are donated to your state and you really don't have the say as to what games, computerized or machines, what the payout will be. There also needs to be a tracking system by each congressional representive to how many vendors in their district, how many sales generated by each vendor, and how many winners in that district. The tracking needs to show if the people winning actually live in that district. This will then open the door to honest lottery. Some retailers seem to get the big hits over and over again on scratch off tickets. This should send a big signal that something is wrong with the distribution of the winning scratch off tickets. As for the online games their needs also a tracking system for total number of vendors and their actual sales in each congressional district, with the winners zip code in relation to the zip code of each vendor. Tracking where the money goes it important for open and honest games. Why can't we have live drawings and let the last winners of the bigger games hand draw the winning balls? It is said the hand is quicker than the eye and I say the machine is quicker than the eye and hand. When are we going to demand honest and fair drawings?
Lottery players don't need a union to support which allegedly gives us a voice.
We already have a very loud lobbying voice here on Lottery Post and a means to get the information out to the public which is the internet.
As individuals we are no longer helpless as we may have been lead to believe we are.
Dogged persistence and hard work are getting press attention, attention by authorities ...... because the voice is loud enough that it will not be shushed.
While I appreciate the Lottery Post and Dawn Nettles of the Lottoreport,
everyone who donates their money should have a fair shot at the pot. This is not the case in America. When the people of the District of Columbia went to the press and said if we don't have a winner (meaning the black people who had been supporting their lottery but never won the big money then quess what the pot hit in a black community!) Honest and fairness is not the lottery games of this country. Lie corruption and deceit are the rules of this game. Elected officals, commissioners, and the companys that operate the lottery in America know exactly what is going on. That why they use confidentialy, trade secrets, ect to justify telling the paying public the truth. Their is not one body that the people can turn to for a honest tracking system on the lottery games by state. Truth does not have to be hidden only untruths. Ask all the employees of Enron, Arthur Anderson that lost their jobs, retirement ect and tell me again we don't need a Union or some type of body to track lottery information and present it to the paying public. Oh and for those that believe the machines are random why does the games with 5 numbers always have idential repeat winnners? Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.
If anyone has any questions regarding security measures, pre and post drawing tests, rotation and retirement of ballsets and machines, all they have to do is inquire from their state lottery as to how and when it is done. Each state varies as to how that information is disseminated but it should be available as a matter of public disclosure.
Yes, I believe that ball lottery draws are random and that just because someone doesn't win it doesn't mean that they were purposefully excluded from the jackpot.
Buying a lottery ticket is buying a chance at winning all or part of a jackpot.
Buying a ticket never automatically guarantees that a person will win or owns by default any portion of that jackpot.
After a few days I've decided to add my 2 cents to this thread. Sorry if it's a bit long.
First kudos to Jim for his efforts. (By the way...how did they cut the numbers off the bottom of that mug shot?)
(IMHO) Jim is entirely correct with regard to Ms Schneider's intentions. (Again IMHO) She has no intention of reforming the Hoosier Lottery which she herself admits needs reforming. She has every intention of mounting a public relations campaign aimed at (1) making it seem the Hoosier Lottery is being reformed and (2) promoting herself as the chief reformer. A quote from her letter to me dated December 28, 2005 (Bolded words are mine):
"I don't shy away from the fact there were many credibility and integrity issues at the Hoosier Lottery prior to my appointment in mid January 2005. In an attempt to correct a litany of problems, the following are just a few of the changes the Lottery has made since my arrival: instituted stringent ticket handling policies; implimented critical pre-employment and employment screenings; restructured departments and reduced staff; created an internal affairs department; installed a new camera and monitoring system and has agressively started to prosecuted employees, retail clerks and players accussed of defrauding the system."
Now this may sound good to some of you but it is absolutely meaningless when it comes to the main issues. One of which has been mentioned many times here on Lottery Post. i.e. the Random Number Generator (RNG). Another quote from the same letter:
"Moving on to the issue of the random number generator (RNG). Most states have moved away from ball drawing machines because of thier propensity for human error and corrpution, such was the case in Lousiana and Pennsylvania, respectively. The RNG program used by the Hoosier Lottery is certified by Gaming Labratory, Intrnational, an independent and accredited company that certifies all lotteries worldwide and also certifies many casinos internationally."
She then goes on to discuss the actuall drawing process and I will post those remarks if anyone wants to read them. She then concludes that section of the letter with:
"It should be noted that the RNG is as reliable or perhaps more reliable than the ball machines which have to go through their own certification process to see that all the balls are actually in the machines, that none weigh more than others, that there is no foreign substance on any of the balls, etc."
So the bottom line is this...despite it's unpopularity with the players, the computerized RNG at the Hoosier Lottery is here to stay. She absolutely refuses to take the single biggest step towards lottery reform.
Now again some of you may not think this is such a big deal. But I feel compelled to remind you all that not only does the Hoosier Lottery use a computerized RNG for it's drawings...the actual drawings are conducted in secret and not available to the general public. (NOTE: the Hoosier Lottery maintains that any citizen can come to Indianapolis and witness a drawing. And in fact the Executive director director invited me to Indianapolis for a tour:
"However, in addition to addressing your concerns, this is an excellent opportunity for me to personally invite you to tour our operation in Indianapolis. Touring our operation will provide you with first-hand knowledge and a clear understanding of the dramatic security changes that have been made over the past nine months as oppossed to reading disenchanted players' blogs that are based solely on emotions and not facts."
(NOTE: Take that Jim and Jeff! You are simply disenchanted players relying on emotions and not facts!)
Now let's get back to the subject of secret drawings. Hoosier Lottery drawings are not televised. And once again the Executive Director is committed to not televising them:
"As far as televising the drawings, the Hoosier Lottery would be most egregious. However, such is the case nationwide, television stations will not provide this service without an enormous fee and one a state agency simply cannot afford and maintain profits to the citizens of Indiana."
So not only will we continue to have computerized drawing...but they will continue to hold them in secret.
In addition to this the practice of blocking numbers will continue. As I've said before I work for a retailer who sells Hoosier Lottery tickets. I have been checking every day and what I have found is amazing. Every day that I have looked, the number 9999 has been blocked from the Pick 4 Evening game. That's every single day for over 2 weeks. Yesterday I looked at 10:30 AM and indeed 9999 was blocked for that night's draw. What does the Executive Director have to say about blocked numbers:
"Being a state agency and having a fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers (Insert NOTE: NOT the players) of Indiana, the Hoosier Lottery does indeed limit the number of players betting on a specific sequence of numbers each draw. Again if you have properly researched individual states' websites as oppossed to reading blogs, you are aware that most states with smaller populations and lower on-line play also limit their liability."
In another thread four4me got a response from someone at the Hoosier Lottery that said there was a $2 million liability. Now keep this in mind. If that were true, there would have to be 400 people in the state of Indiana all betting 9999 for the Daily 4 Evening game by 10:30 AM for it to warrant being cut off. And remember 9999 has been cut off every day for more than 2 weeks so that means 400 people a day for more than 2 weeks straight would have to be betting that number.
But that's not what the Executive Director is saying. The Executive Director is saying that they limit certain numbers because they have low on line play and if those numbers were to hit they wouldn't be able to pay them. Why? Because if they actually pay out a prize they won't be able to make a profit! So the bottom line is this...in order to insure that they never have to pay out on 9999...they simply block people from playing it. Now if that isn't the definition of a rigged game you tell me what is!
Finally, in respone to my question about the reduced jackpot payout and the extended annuity period...she bundled that together with my complaint about the disclaimer on the back of Hoosier Lottery tickets requiring all winners to meet with the press and lottery public relations people and said this:
"While you may not agree that a lottery has the right to advertise winners or to restructure annuity payouts based on interest rates, these poilicies are within the rights of each lottery, dictated by each states' legislative authority. In fact, most state lotteries operate solely by legislative authority and can regulate specific game payouts, such as the case with Indiana's Hoosier Lotto."
So the bottom line is (according to her) they are simply following state law.
Now I know some of you will not think any of this is all that bad. But put it all together and it amounts to ths:
As stated earlier in this thread, the Hoosier Lottery is simply a cash cow for the states. They don't give a damn about the players. They will continue to conduct computerized drawings (despite their unpopularity), they will continue to conduct secret drawings (despite state law), they will continue to block numbers (so they don't have to pay out prizes), they continue to will change the rules, payouts, annuity times and anything else they so desire, at any time without notice and they will continue to exploit the winners shamelessly by forcing them to meet with the press, lottery public relations personal and be signing an agreement giving the Hoosier Lottery lifetime rights to the winner's name, photograph and comments.
The Hoosier Lottery is indeed a cash cow for the state of Indiana. And the players? Well they are nothing more than sheep to sheared and lambs to be slaughtered. They can play the game but they have absolutely no rights whatsoever.
I have stopped playing all Hoosier Lottery games (except for Powerball which is not under their control). I encourage everyone else to do the same until some kind of meaningful reform (not some Stalinesque show trial) is actually implimented.
Jim
For me what is sad about the Oregon lottery is that they took the easy way out. The lottery says the machines cost, the balls need to be cared for, the t.v. stations want us to pay to put the draws on. Every body else is going to computerization so lets join them and the players lose out. Forget the players we are only going to do what the laws says and that is if we feel like it. I only play powerball on a regular basis and if they go to a computerized drawing I will probably find the casino more often then the lottery. Once the ball drawings are all gone for me so will the fun and magic of watching the draws and the feeling you get when you see that you have won.-weshar75
weshar:
So why does OR keep Lose for Life going without a cash option, since the WA scratch game Lucky for Life has a $750,000 buyout?
weshar:
So why does OR keep Lose for Life going without a cash option, since the WA scratch game Lucky for Life has a $750,000 buyout?
I do not play Win for life because the prize is to small and the do not let you cash it out. Oregon has a lot of things they do wrong.
Great post, Uncle Jim!
"Being a state agency and having a fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers (Insert NOTE: NOT the players) of Indiana, the Hoosier Lottery does indeed limit the number of players betting on a specific sequence of numbers each draw. Again if you have properly researched individual states' websites as oppossed to reading blogs, you are aware that most states with smaller populations and lower on-line play also limit their liability."
I noticed she didn't mention the 288 numbers which have been essentially removed from the field in the Pick-3 game since 1999. It should be noted that we have researched other state lotteries' websites; a comparison between the Hoosier Lottery and other state lotteries comprises an entire section of our evidence file. The irony lies in the fact that Indiana state law requires the Hoosier lottery to make these very same comparisons in order to ensure a competitive game (see below):
IC 4-30-3-5 Commission Studies
Sec. 5 The commission shall make a continuing study of the following:
(1) The lottery, in order to ascertain any amendments necessary to this article or to rules adopted under this article that could prevent any abuses in the administration of the lottery (Yeah, well, that ship has sailed, I'm afraid).
(2) The operation and administration of similar lottery laws in other states and of federal laws that may affect the lottery (We already ignore the laws which were written to govern our operations; what do we care what the Feds think?)
(3) The reaction of the public to existing and potential features of the lottery (Like we care!).
I've requested the results of these studies many times, but my requests go unanswered, because this happens to be one of those laws which is not convenient for the Hoosier Lottery, and so they simply choose to ignore it, along with the one that guarantees us a public drawing.
Ms. Schneider is correct when she says that smaller states with more successful lotteries also limit their liability; they do indeed. They also make it a point to do it legally, setting those liability limits down in writing and making sure the general public is aware of where to find them, something the Hoosier Lottery refuses to do. I've made several requests asking where this $2M limit is written but, again, no answers are forthcoming, because we have no liability limit. Rather than adopt such a fair and open policy, the Hoosier Lottery regularly alludes to these fictitious limits, but prefers instead to actively track player selections as they're being sold. This allows them to cut off any number they want at any time they want, regardless of ticket sales.
I remain convinced that their RNG is connected to their central database which keeps track of player selections. This is the only way to explain all of the Pick-4 payouts of three or four thousand dollars a day in a state of six million people whose lottery routinely boasts of record ticket sales, but then defends their low payouts with claims that no one is buying their tickets, and because the smaller lotteries such as those in Delaware, Virginia and South Carolina have the advantage of attracting more players from their numerous border states.
Now, back to liability limits.
The following is an excerpt from the minutes of the January 7, 2002 meeting of the South Carolina Educational Lottery:
Liability Limits/ Multi-Digit Games
"Mr. Rhodes explained a phenomenon that occurs in a multi-digit game when a very large proportion of players select the same combination of numbers, which could result in a large payout. Unless specifically controlled, SCEL could experience a net loss for a significant period of time. To avoid this phenomenon, lotteries may restrict the selection of the same combination of numbers after a certain level has been reached, thereby controlling the liability of the lottery. Staff surveyed seventeen state lotteries regarding their practices and found that none have performed a mathematical analysis, but subjectively set a level of liability that seems reasonable and which may be adjusted. Staff recommended that SCEL use a $3.5 million liability limit for its 3-digit game, which is similar to the average of other lotteries."
That's what a mandated liability limit looks like, so now if you ever see one, you'll be able to identify it.
Indiana's fictional liability limit of $2 million is apparently still below average. If they're going to pretend to have a liability limit, the Hoosier Lottery should adopt an imaginary five million-dollar limit for their Daily-3 game, and then advertise it as the highest in the nation (the fact that it's not real will remain our little secret; just toss it on the pile with the rest).
I don't want to encourage Ms. Schneider to break the law (like it would matter), but such a policy would increase ticket sales.
i remain convinced that this is just waiting to fall into the right persons hands and then this thing will explode.they just CAN'T keep getting away with this.i think they are pushing the limits but they are doing it in a very sneaky underhanded way.using it to their advantage and bending their own rules as they go.but nothing last forever and the day of reckoning will dawn..........
The playing people of every state do have power to force change. This change will come when we force with petitions on voting day in each state. What needs to happen is for the people of each state to force the issues on the Statewide elections. Force the State to return to machine games (I'd prefer the last winners draw the balls in a public setting like a football stadium or basketball, soccer ect.) The State does not want hand drawings? Why one might ask? Well, they said because it would be corrupt. Hey thats a big joke! The money is controlled that's why.
The machines and balls, and computerized generation is corrupt. The hidden drawings, the pretest drawings are not viewed here in Texas unless you go to Austin. Now is it fair to all people of the State that only one location for the drawings occurs? Force legislation can change this. When there is corruption in a billion dollar a year enterprise, you can bet there is good cause for not having live drawings. The lottery officals and Commissioners are tied into Gtech Corporation. The State Legislators are given money by Gtech for their elections. Gtech controls all terminals and all numbers played, whether you pick them or their corrupt terminals do.
Par mutual wagering is what is keeping the lottery corrupt. The tier structure is what limits the State intake and payout to the players. It should have been out dated a long time ago.
I want to respond to something four4me said earlier in this thread because I think it's important for Lottery Post members to understand why so many of us think the Hoosier Lottery is rigged.
The point four4me made (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that larger volume retailers can expect to have more top tier prizes because they sell more tickets. I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. It stands to reason that if tickets are distrubuted randomly someone who gets 10,000 tickets will have a better chance of getting a large winner than someone who only gets 100 ticlets.
The point some of us are trying to make is that (again IMHO) the distribution of Hoosier Lottery scratch off tickets is anything but random. It is (IMHO) predetermined by the Hoosier Lottery. They decide...that is to say they make a conscience and deliberate decision as to where the winners go.
Consider this:
The Hoosier Lottery website lists scratch off winners of $100,000 by county. The following numbers come directly from their website:
Once again Marion County (Indianapolis) is far and away the leader in top tier prizes with a total of 46 winners of $100,000 or more. (By the way these figure exclude those people who won a chance to appear on the now defunct Hoosier Millioniare show and won money there.) Marion County has a population of approximately 863,000 people.
Taking 2 large counties in Indiana...Lake County and Allen County...with a combined total of approximately 833,000 people you have a total of 17 top tier winners. (8 in Lake and 7 in Allen.) These 2 counties have only approximately 30,000 less people than Marion County yet Marion County has 3 times as many winners. (By the way these 2 counties are home to 3 of Indiana's largest cities...Gary, Hammond and Ft Wayne.)
Without sales figures it is impossible to tell if the people of Marion County are buying more tickets or if they are just 3 times as lucky as the residents of these other 2 counties. But one thing is for sure...Marion County gets the majority of top tier winning tickets.
Now to make matters even worse consider this:
The 21 following counties in Indiana have never in 15 1/2 years of Hoosier Lottery play had a single top tier winner:
Newton...White...Whitley...Huntington...Randolph...Benton...Warren...Montgomery...Decatur...Fayette...Union...Warrick...Daviess...Spencer...Perry...Crawford...Washington...Harrison...Scott...Dearborn...and Ohio.
Addimittedly these are not very populous counties. Their combined population is approximately 548,000 people. And again we have no sales figures to go by so we can only look at these facts and speculate as to the reason there has never been a top tier winner fromany of these 21 counties. But again the easy answer is...these conties have never had a top tier winning ticket.
And when you consider that Marion County (Indianapoils) has not only had far and away the most winners...but it has also had multiple top tier winners in the same game...5 players from Marion County won a combined total of $500,000 playing Bankroll and 4 players from Marion County won a combined total of $2,300,000 playing 2 Million Cash...you have to begin asking questions.
While some people may say that this proves the point four4me was making...personally, I find it impossible to believe that all these winning tickets just happened to be randomly distributed to Marion County and that the 21 aforementioned counties just happend to not get any. Not a single top tier winning ticket in 15 1/2 years. By the way I left out approximately 12 or more counties that have had only 1 top tier winner. If you factor those numbers in then what you have is roughly 1/3 of the counties in Indiana who in 15 1/2 years of play have either never had a top tier winner or have just had 1.
All any player in Indiana wants is a fair chance at winning. Pay you dollar and take you chances. But we all know that the best indicator of future behavior is past performance. Given the data...forget about the history of scandal and the last rigged scratch off game just consider the data and ask yourselves this:
Why would anyone outside of Marion County pay their dollar when they have absolutely no chance of winning at all? If you live in one of those 21 counties I mentioned the odds are worse than astronimical...they are non-existent.
If these tickets were truly distributed randomly...then one would expect that in 15 1/2 years of play...there would be a far more equitable distribution of winners state wide than the numbers show. But as with the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game the pattern remains the same...the vast bulk of the winners come from Marion County.
Is this proof the game is rigged? Is it proof that the people of Marion County buy substantially more lottery tickets than the rest of the state? Or is it proof that the people of Marion County are just a whole lot luckier than the rest of the citizens of the state? Well one thing it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that the vast bulk of top tier winning scratch off tickets go to Marion County.
And If you believe the Hooseir Lottery, this fact (coincidence?) is nothng more than brain fodder for a bunch of disgruntled losers and wild eyed conspiracy nuts.
So...you tell me.
Jim
i think the reason this thing hasn't gotten the interest it should is because a lot of people are dismissing it without looking at all the facts.the media,police,etc. all are probably thinking..."ahh just another disgruntled loser that can't handle losing".they dismiss it without truly looking into it.that and plus the fact that a lot of them are afraid for their careers or afraid to step on someone elses toes so they just ignore it outright.it isn't right.but i still say the right person is going to come along and give this the attention it deserves........
Excellent work Jim,
This indicates to me that someone may very well know where the tickets are before distribution, and are placed in higher populated area. The key here being that someone at the Lottery may very well know what batches contain the big tickets prior to distribution. How else could so many counties be excluded? I have always said that geography is a factor. The Daily games are no different. I seriously question the validity of the security for these scratch offs and the RNG.
"This was a one-time situation," Thayer said.
i have a question for you mr. thayer....
are you sure??????
Consider this. I do not know the exact sales figures for the daily 4 games yet. But, one could reason that a minimum draw would be in the $40,000 range per draw; I dont think this is unreasonable.
Using simple math, $40,000 x 24 way combo equals just under a million possible combinations. Since the odds of winning a straight or straight combo is 1:10000, wouldnt it stand to reason that dividing 960,000 by 10000 would give you the "possibility" for 4 straight winners a draw? Be more conservative. Say there is $20,000 spent per draw. Then there could be nearly 100 box winners (based on 1:460) per day and possibly 2-3 straight winners. I know there are many factors. I know these figures are a little high, but considering the fact that the Hoosier Lottery says it pays back 57 percent to its players, wouldnt a day where sales is $40,000 pay back 22,000 dollars to players?
Then why do goose eggs constantly appear in the straight winner area on the payout screen? Why can States like South Carolina(2 million less ppl) significantly outpay Indiana on each and every day? Why do these bags of tickets I have yield no winners? Why is it a coincidence that I am one off on every other draw? Why do annuities change and nobody knows about it? Why do people believe Indiana still uses ping pong balls? Why isnt there live televised drawing? Why havent I got my 57 percent back to the player? Enough said for now. I do not want to sound awful here as many of you, I know, are tired of hearing me complain. Please understand that I am on a mission to get the Balls back! I am just trying to shed some light. Please dont hold that against me.
Any person should be able to reason that the odds will be paid back to you. Not so here. The odds are literally non-existent. Wish I would have known that years ago. It has been awful to say the least. Remember this, it's one thing to predict a winner on this site. It's another thing to buy the ticket and win!
i'm behind you 100 percent.i hate the fact that those thugs who call themselves lottery officials in indiana can have a good conscience after stealing most of the players including you blind the last 5 years.been 5 long years or more or less a half a decade since the hoosier lottery suddenly figured out they could rob people blind and get away with it.i bet the people who got together and figured that out must be really proud of themselves.well lets see here we can get rid of the balls and have an RNG track all numbers played and pay out on the number played the least and rack in all the players money everyday! also we can situate all scratch offs in populated places because it wouldn't help any to put them in places where there aren't as many players.i bet in 2001 the hoosier lottery would've probably been voted as one of the best lotteries in america before the dreaded computerized takeover happened.but i think that here soon maybe the tide will turn and players can get the balls back and indiana can admit they made a mistake.is that too much to ask mr. indiana lottery director????
Once again I'd like to respond to a few things said in this thread:
First to Honorary Hoosier Lottomike...it's Ms Indiana Lottery director not Mr.
Next...to combine points made by Lottomike and WinningJeff...with regard to the numbers games many of us do believe that the Hoosier Lottery computer does indeed track the numbers played and that that information is somehow fed to the (so-called) RNG which then excludes not only the most often played combinations but also numbers that might result in a straight payout. (And once again I must point out that I have no actual factual data to support this paranoid conspiracy theory.)
As for the point about people predicting winning numbers here at Lottery Post and indeed placing bets on line and winning on the Hoosier Lottery...in support of my paranoid conspiracy theory I need to remind all of you that the numbers you pick and indeed the numbers you play NEVER go into the Hoosier Lottery computer. Your on line bets are not placed with the Hoosier Lottery so they don't go into the computer...they are not tracked...and if you win the prize is not payed out by the Hoosier Lottery.
(NOTE: I had to ask this question yesterday because I couldn't figure out why so many of you on line players were talking about winning and yet the in state payouts are always so low.)
Now...without being rude it seems entirely possible to me that WinningJeff is absolutely inept when it comes to picking numbers. But given the nature of on line betting it seems more than plausible to me that in-state bets are indeed scanned, tracked, blocked and cut off while on-line bets (again those that are never actually placed with the Hoosier Lottery) are not. Therefore, those of you playing on-line may indeed be able to consistantly pick winners while those of us in-state consistantly pick losers. The on-line betters look at the numbers...use their own systems and win. The in-state betters look at the numbers...use their own systems and lose. Why? The answer seems obvious to me...more than a bit paranoid but obvious nontheless. (Man! Oliver Stone would love this stuff!)
With regard to sales firgure...after some considerable research I was able to find some Hoosier Lottery sales figures. They were published in the annual report to the Lottery Commission but I'm afraid they're not very helpful. According to the annual report, 2005 annual sales for the Hoosier Lottery Daily 3 and Daily 4 games combined were $59.4 million. I could not find a breakdown as to how much each game accounted for or how much was Midday versus Evening. I also could not find a prize payout breakdown on those games. If anyone knows the sales figures from any other state lotteries of comparable size...please post them so we can compare.
With regard to scratch off games the numbers absolutely blew me away. The Hoosier Lottery reported a combined total sales in 2005 of $739.8 million. Scratch off sales accounted for considerably more than half of that figure coming in at $470.4 million. (Obviously the most recent off scandal hasn't hurt the Hoosier Lottery as much as their whining would have us believe.)
And again I could find no alses breakdown on the games or the geographic distribution by county that would shed any light on the winners distribution pattern. But I did find what looks like an anomaly.
St. Joseph County in Northern Indiana has a population of approximately 266,400 people. (Less than either of the aforementioned Lake or Allen Counties.) It is home to the city of South Bend and Notre Dame University. Yet St. Joseph County has had the same number of top tier winners...17...as the other counties 2 combined. One county with a population of 266,000 has the same number of winners as 2 counties with a combined population of 833,000. I also want to point out that that 266,000 is considerably less that the combined population of the 21 aforementioned counties (548,000) that have never had a top tier winner. And if one does the math one finds that the ratio of winners to population is very close to that of Marion County (Indianapolis). A ration by the way that does not stand up with any other county in the state I have checked so far. (I'm not done yet I have more counties to check.)
I have no idea what if any connection there may or may not be between St. Joseph County and the Hoosier Lottery. But it is absolutely inconceivable to me that in a "blind" system of random distribution one county could consistantly receive so many top tier prizes while other counties with larger populations (i.e. Lake and Allen) and many more counties (21 with albeit much smaller populations) consistantly get less and indeed even no top tier winners.
Once again I feel compelled to point out that I have no actual factual data that the Hoosier Lottery is rigged. All I have are observations that lead me to ask a lot of questions. But for those of you who think we're all just a bunch of disgruntle losers and wild eyed conspiracy nuts let me put it to you this way:
If you see a creature waddling down the road...and it has feathers, webbed feet and it quacks...what conclusion would you draw?
Jim
Well Done Jim! Watch you have just identified is something that never ever should happen. Proper audits and internal controls, as well as vulnerability assessments would prevent these types of problems from ever occuring; however, 16 years of no audits has gave you the result you are seeing. How did the former Director keep his job if payouts on the daily games are so bad? Why didn't he investigate these low payouts?
You are right, the scratch off figures are staggering! How is that? Probably because they take in a heck of alot more than they pay out. I am looking at a stack of 10 dollar tickets that is 1 foot high with no winners. This is ridiculous. Gosh, I wish I could have a business where I get 100 profit, dont you? Anyways, you are right about my ineptness. Too never hit a straight combo after 100 thou worth of combos is pretty bad. Jim 695 and I both discovered a long time ago that you can win on paper, but not if you spend the money. We also too our tickets and figured that the odds of hitting a pic 4 straight is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1:40000. Actually worse in my case though. So yes, inept is a good word. Jim, did you know that Indiana is 2nd in the Nation in Bankruptcies? In other words, its a part of life here. Its a no win situation.
Sorry about the mispelling above. Meant to say what in the first sentence, not watch. Its been bad lately--maybe alzheimers is setting in on me. Or maybe my brain is too overworked from counting all these losing tickets I have accumulated for years.
It's the Jimmy Grimeses of the world that bring to the fore shenanigans. That is how shenanigans get noticed and investigations get started. Kudos!!!
Go Jim 695!
Every State Representives territory is broken down by population ect, and what I would like to see by each district is, the names addresses and zip code of each vendor that sells lottery and scratch off tickets. The winners zip codes. Most who win big don't want their names published. Okay lets get their zip code before they move to that big new house and compare the information with the vendors. Do all these winners live in the district that the tickets where purchased from? If I knew where the winning scratch offs were going I could go to that district and purchase all the tickets that vendor had. We have no real tracking system to the people and vendors winning. In Texas Gtech receives the scratch off tickets and does the distributing of the tickets. People need to write to their State Representive for a bill to track this money for the entire state to see. Wonder if those counties in Indiana would then get some winners that never have. Or, write up a petition and get enough signatures that the State has to put it on the ballots when you have a State wide election. The people have the power but let the State run Lottery Agency do what they want to. The commissioners have too much power. It belongs to the people of each State who play and pay to support the lottery.
@richwood:
You make more than a few good points in you post. I'll just respond to one:
In Indiana it doesn't matter whether or not the winner wants his/her published. By state law the Hoosier Lottery is required to publish the winner's name and county of residence.
One of the things I complained about in my initial letter to the Hoosier Lottery is that they (the Hooseir Lottery) goes beyond that for their own purposes. They shamelessly exploit all winners because they believe it motivates people (read: losers) to buy more tickets.
This disclaimer is from the back of every Hoosier Lottery ticket:
The holder of this ticket agrees to participate in interviews with Lottery public relations personnel and the media and grants permission to use his/her name, photograph, comments and image in lottery sponsored advertising and promotions.
You must sign the ticket in order to collect your prize and by so doing you give up your right to privacy forever and become another trained animal to be exhibited and exploited in the Hoosier Lottery Dog and Pony show.
(IMHO) Using the vernacular of the day...that's just wrong.
Jim
In Texas the Lottery began in1992 and everyone who won had to give their name. Now when people win its a Trust company or corporation name and you don't really know who won. Also keep in mind that Texas borders Mexico and a lot of illegal and green card holders play the lottery. The last large pot in Texas of 145,000,000 million went across the border. While they many exploit the winners names in Indiana at least you know who won. Not so in Texas. A lot of secrecy about public pooled money and we don't know who won ,or how much leaves the state each drawing.
Then the State Legislators tell us that the State is 10 billion dollars in debt and need to cut services (jobs) to balance the budget. Since the citizens really don't have a tracking system that is public information without having to write Austin the Capital to get information on the lottery we are told what the Commissioner and Lottery Director wants the public to hear. Scratch tickets here are put on the Texas lottery internet page and we can see the old games, new games, coming games, and how many tickets are in each game, and every once in a while they update the claimed tickets. Seems like the big ticket games with 1 or 2 million get claimed shortly after the games starts. I am writing for a tracking system by State Districts and vendors. I don't believe the man in Indiana is the only one who knows where the winners are.
In Texas the Lottery began in1992 and everyone who won had to give their name. Now when people win its a Trust company or corporation name and you don't really know who won. Also keep in mind that Texas borders Mexico and a lot of illegal and green card holders play the lottery. The last large pot in Texas of 145,000,000 million went across the border. While they many exploit the winners names in Indiana at least you know who won. Not so in Texas. A lot of secrecy about public pooled money and we don't know who won ,or how much leaves the state each drawing.
Then the State Legislators tell us that the State is 10 billion dollars in debt and need to cut services (jobs) to balance the budget. Since the citizens really don't have a tracking system that is public information without having to write Austin the Capital to get information on the lottery we are told what the Commissioner and Lottery Director wants the public to hear. Scratch tickets here are put on the Texas lottery internet page and we can see the old games, new games, coming games, and how many tickets are in each game, and every once in a while they update the claimed tickets. Seems like the big ticket games with 1 or 2 million get claimed shortly after the games starts. I am writing for a tracking system by State Districts and vendors. I don't believe the man in Indiana is the only one who knows where the winners are.
If someone is clever and digs hard enough they can come up with that information via public record.
Same argument has been tossed around here .... winner seeking privacy, public seeking complete disclosure. People pay attorneys to protect their identities for reasons of safety to themselves and their families. Were you in a similar situation you might consider same too.
To my knowledge there don't seem to be any laws prohibiting people from other nations playing in any US state lotteries. Don't know of any nation in the world which would prohibit legally inflowing money.
Many years ago there was an outcry when Powerball got very high drawing money in from other countries .... don't remember who won that jackpot but figure that if someone else wanted to invest their money in the ultimate lottery player's American dream, then so be it.
Let everyone continue dream and some lucky ones realize just that.
When people buy tickets from one State and live in another their State stands to benifit from this win fall. If letting anyone play from one state to the next is good for the overall game than why not let everyone in the United States play any State Lottery without having to travel to that State?
I heard that Michigan does not allow outsiders to win the pots, if anyone has information concerning this please write. When the money leaves America and goes to Mexico or any other country it hurts that State. When you win in your State and continue to live in your State than you will
probably buy a new home, car, applicances ect. This is all Taxed in that State and all people of the State who played benifit. When it leaves the State than you lose that sales tax revenue. Then the legislators want you to pay more taxes, and cut jobs. In America we have lost enough jobs to other countries. Should we lose our donations to our lotteries also? As for par mutuel wagering it should have been dead long ago. Why not pick 100 tickets per pot or two hundred tickets and give the people in each state a real chance to win. The State would take in more money, their would be more winners, and less Statewide job cuts, lower taxes would result. Most States started a lottery to benifit the schools. In Texas HISD the second largest school district in Texas was 100 million short yet we have a Education fund with 7 billion plus dollars. Don't up my property taxes or cut State jobs. The lottery help keep people working. Where is the money going? Thats why every state should have a tracking system in place for the public to see. They could hold the drawings in different parts of the State at public Stadiums or any building that could hold thousands of people. Sell hot dog, cokes ect and charge 1.00 per person to come in and watch a live drawing. Draw 100 or two hundred tickets and people would pay to come. Let the previous winners hand draw the balls in a clear container, and verify all balls are present. This would give the people in each State a fair and honest chance to win. I don't want to play a game where 1 person walks away with all the money year after year. In Texas we started out with 6/50 drawings, then the commissioners changed it to 6/54, then to 5/bonus ball. The people of the State of Texas protested and they did not listen. Lost revenue and now they want to take the bonus ball out of the game and return to 6/54. Our 4 number game also has a bonus ball, and the Mega Millions with a bonus ball. Our Cash five started out 1-39 now changed to 1-37. Ohio where I was born, changed their 5 number game to 1-39 from 1-37. Gtech knows what they are doing when they push the commissioner to change games to bonus balls, or add or subtract balls. They players lose more money. The player don't have anyone to lobby for their interst in the State Lotteries. The Gaming companies do.
When people buy tickets from one State and live in another their State stands to benifit from this win fall. If letting anyone play from one state to the next is good for the overall game than why not let everyone in the United States play any State Lottery without having to travel to that State?
I heard that Michigan does not allow outsiders to win the pots, if anyone has information concerning this please write. When the money leaves America and goes to Mexico or any other country it hurts that State. When you win in your State and continue to live in your State than you will
probably buy a new home, car, applicances ect. This is all Taxed in that State and all people of the State who played benifit. When it leaves the State than you lose that sales tax revenue. Then the legislators want you to pay more taxes, and cut jobs. In America we have lost enough jobs to other countries. Should we lose our donations to our lotteries also? As for par mutuel wagering it should have been dead long ago. Why not pick 100 tickets per pot or two hundred tickets and give the people in each state a real chance to win. The State would take in more money, their would be more winners, and less Statewide job cuts, lower taxes would result. Most States started a lottery to benifit the schools. In Texas HISD the second largest school district in Texas was 100 million short yet we have a Education fund with 7 billion plus dollars. Don't up my property taxes or cut State jobs. The lottery help keep people working. Where is the money going? Thats why every state should have a tracking system in place for the public to see. They could hold the drawings in different parts of the State at public Stadiums or any building that could hold thousands of people. Sell hot dog, cokes ect and charge 1.00 per person to come in and watch a live drawing. Draw 100 or two hundred tickets and people would pay to come. Let the previous winners hand draw the balls in a clear container, and verify all balls are present. This would give the people in each State a fair and honest chance to win. I don't want to play a game where 1 person walks away with all the money year after year. In Texas we started out with 6/50 drawings, then the commissioners changed it to 6/54, then to 5/bonus ball. The people of the State of Texas protested and they did not listen. Lost revenue and now they want to take the bonus ball out of the game and return to 6/54. Our 4 number game also has a bonus ball, and the Mega Millions with a bonus ball. Our Cash five started out 1-39 now changed to 1-37. Ohio where I was born, changed their 5 number game to 1-39 from 1-37. Gtech knows what they are doing when they push the commissioner to change games to bonus balls, or add or subtract balls. They players lose more money. The player don't have anyone to lobby for their interst in the State Lotteries. The Gaming companies do.
And your lotto is going back to 6/54. I like that decision.