Poll - RNG, auditors and game fraudPrev Topic Next Topic

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Can bias, or fraud in RNG games be detected by 'auditors'?

[ 4 ]

[ 14.3% ]

Yes

[ 7 ]

[ 25.0% ]

Probably not

[ 7 ]

[ 25.0% ]

Probably so

[ 0 ]

[ 0.0% ]

Emphatically yes

[ 1 ]

[ 3.6% ]

Emphatically no

[ 1 ]

[ 3.6% ]

Yes, but with reservations

[ 2 ]

[ 7.1% ]

No, but with reservations

[ 3 ]

[ 10.7% ]

I don't know

[ 2 ]

[ 7.1% ]

I ain't admitting to nuthun ( lottery official)

[ 1 ]

[ 3.6% ]

Total valid votes

[ 28 ]

Discarded votes

[ 1 ]

Rip Snorter

New Mexico
United States
Member #12,305
March 10, 2005
2,984 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 11:35 am

(I'm aware this subject has been addressed before. I beg forgiveness.)

Almost all of you know a lot more than I do about computers and programming technology.

My general impression as a sub-novice in electronic technology is that no amount of 'oversight', no amount of 'auditing', no legion of disinterested observers could be expected to detect fraud prior to the draw (and probably not following it unless it's painfully obvious)

I'll hold off voting the poll until I see how the wind blows, then vote the majority public opinion, as always.

Jack

Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.
It's about number behavior.
Egos don't count.

Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser
konane

USA
United States
Member #1,265
March 13, 2003
9,061 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 11:38 am

I voted no unless the auditor is also a programmer familiar with the specific RNG program used to generate winning numbers.

Have fun and the best of luck to everyone!
lotterybraker

mississippi
United States
Member #34,477
March 3, 2006
6,070 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 11:49 am

Well..I would just like to say this..IF..said Individuals want to cheat really really bad enough..they will try to tamper with said Computer or the ping pong balls if they have it in their mind to try and cheat..I do However, feel like the computer would be much harder to detect..although my computer knowledge is somewhat Limited( understatement to say the least..lol)..I would think that some computer person somewhere should be able to tell if said computer has been messed with..looks to me like..of course that is just a guess..

"Attention all Mathematicians: Check your degree at the door because when it comes to whole numbers you are the Amateur"
four4me

MD
United States
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June 18, 2003
10,731 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 11:53 am

Quote: Originally posted by konane on July 22, 2006
I voted no unless the auditor is also a programmer familiar with the specific RNG program used to generate winning numbers.
I agree with konane.
when a programmer programs code he can hide anything he want's to happen in the code. even burry it deep in some sub-routine, countless ways it can be corrupted. Unless the auditor is an experienced programmed he would have great difficulty detecting any abnormalities.
About the only way an auditor might see something amiss is if every 3rd day of the month the same number came out of the program possibly in different order. It would have to be something he might catch by eye or a program designed to trace malicious code. There are some pretty savvy programmers. I'm willing to bet that even two accomplished programmers couldn't find someone's trick codes unless they were given some kind of hint as to what to look for.
Rip Snorter

New Mexico
United States
Member #12,305
March 10, 2005
2,984 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 12:05 pm

I posted this on another thread, but I think I might have overstated the case. From what you're saying there'd be no reason for the auditor to get a cut of the action.
For that matter, there's even the remote and unlikely possibility no lottery official would know or be involved. No one except some programmer off in Cozumel sipping Margueritas and smiling to himself.
J

Screen shows a set of numbers, printer spits out a line.

Auditor: "Is that it?"

Lottery official: "That's her."

Auditor looks at the printed number, compares it to the number on the screen.

"She's a winner."

Lottery Official winks at Auditor.

"Ain't she, though?" Auditor and Lottery Official high-five. "Your turn again tomorrow."

Lottery Official phones the television, reports the number, then calls cousin Charlie.

"She's a winner! Got through the careful scrutiny of the Auditor. We done it again!"

Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.
It's about number behavior.
Egos don't count.

Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser
ryanm

Morrison, IL
United States
Member #4,657
May 13, 2004
1,885 Posts
Offline

Jul 22, 2006, 12:15 pm

If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.
MillionsWanted

Norway
Member #9,517
December 10, 2004
1,904 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 12:20 pm

It is without doubt that the auditor must be a matematician and statistician with B.Sc. in computer engineering.
Rip Snorter

New Mexico
United States
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March 10, 2005
2,984 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 12:25 pm

Quote: Originally posted by ryanm on July 22, 2006
If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.
If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion,
Probably so. Texans were certainly shocked when the person over in the auditing function revealed internal emails expressing concern for the practices of the Lottery Commission. (Revealed AFTER he was fired).
Wonder if the guy ever found another job, I do. Likely his services are in great demand these days for his having gone public.
But auditors probably don't mind destroying their lives and their careers to go live under a bridge for the sake of integrity.
Jack

Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.
It's about number behavior.
Egos don't count.

Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser
csfb

United States
Member #15,309
May 13, 2005
307 Posts
Offline

Jul 22, 2006, 12:41 pm

Who was it that said, "The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
I'll have to get back to you on that one, and in what context he said it. The author escapes me at the moment.
Cheers!
Rip Snorter

New Mexico
United States
Member #12,305
March 10, 2005
2,984 Posts
Offline

Jul 22, 2006, 4:46 pm

Good point.
The quote even sounds vaguely familiar
Jack

Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.
It's about number behavior.
Egos don't count.

Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser
pumpi76

Honduras
Member #20,981
August 29, 2005
4,715 Posts
Offline

Jul 22, 2006, 11:11 pm

If the programmer made the RnG so that in draw number 22, the digits 88 will appears and for it to follow a numberic series or mathematical series, that only the programmer will know then there is no way that the auditor will know....if he knows that draw number 10, 24, 61, 112 (numeric series) the number 2 & 3 will come up, then no one could noticed it..
What's an auditor?

The Forex trades: 1.6 Trillion dollars EVERY day, that´s more than the GDP of the Carribbean Central America, COMBINED. Enough to feed every crook out there for centuries...To all Geniuses & Powers Countries of the World the Planet needs breakthroughs in all Medicine, Veterinary, Biology related fields, Psychology, Population Psychology/Sociology..They need to genetically ingeneer new plants species/types to give more variety of plants and thus have more resources for combating diseases¨
emilyg

50

United States
Member #14
November 9, 2001
31,614 Posts
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Jul 22, 2006, 11:29 pm

Quote: Originally posted by csfb on Jul 22, 2006
Who was it that said, "The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
I'll have to get back to you on that one, and in what context he said it. The author escapes me at the moment.
Cheers!

r.r. coveyou

love to nibble those micey feet.
guesser

United States
Member #41,382
June 16, 2006
1,969 Posts
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Jul 23, 2006, 12:41 am

Anything, repeat, ANYTHING generated from a computer can be......... 'monkeyed with'.

*I* can write a RnG that is random, and I can also write a RnG that isn't random as a 'one-off', once the 'funny' code has been executed, it can be made to delete or change itself and nobody is the wiser. It's all about what's loaded into memory at execution time and isn't far-fetched at all.
ryanm

Morrison, IL
United States
Member #4,657
May 13, 2004
1,885 Posts
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Jul 23, 2006, 12:53 am

Quote: Originally posted by Rip Snorter on Jul 22, 2006
Quote: Originally posted by ryanm on July 22, 2006
If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.
If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion,
Probably so. Texans were certainly shocked when the person over in the auditing function revealed internal emails expressing concern for the practices of the Lottery Commission. (Revealed AFTER he was fired).
Wonder if the guy ever found another job, I do. Likely his services are in great demand these days for his having gone public.
But auditors probably don't mind destroying their lives and their careers to go live under a bridge for the sake of integrity.
Jack

Auditors are supposed to be INDEPENDENT of the entities they're auditing. They work for public accounting firms, not their clients. The auditor of the TLC must have been an internal auditor, but obviously the internal auditing function of the TLC is ineffective if he can get fired for revealing information like that. The auditors of ball and computer drawings are not supposed to be employees of the lottery.

---
justxploring

Wandering Aimlessly
United States
Member #25,359
November 5, 2005
4,461 Posts
Offline

Jul 23, 2006, 5:33 am

"Well..I would just like to say this..IF..said Individuals want to cheat really really bad enough..they will try to tamper with said Computer or the ping pong balls if they have it in their mind to try and cheat.." Lotterybraker
They'd only try to Tampa with the ping pong balls in Florida.

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