computerized drawings set to take over the lottery in a few years?Prev Topic Next Topic

LOTTOMIKE

Tennessee
United States
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Aug 22, 2007, 7:11 am

i never thought i'd say this a couple years ago or even a year ago.but it looks to me that maybe in a few years time that we will see the end of ball drawings as we know it.tennessee lasted three whole years before bowing out to computerized draws.then before that you had missouri biting the dust about the time tennessee came along.you have hot lotto going from balls to computers and MUSL defended this decision.these are the same people who run powerball.once powerball or mega millions goes RNG it won't be long until the other follows through.now you have florida lottery doing a survey about switching to computers.the threat is finally here.these idiotic politicians are going to ruin the lottery with this nonsense.we've already seen a breakdown in the computerized bullcrap in tennessee less than a month into the new draws.kansas draws the same number 3 days in a row? i'm sorry but i don't buy it.there is disaster lurking in this process......
WIN D

Stone Mountain*Georgia
United States
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November 2, 2002
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Aug 22, 2007, 7:29 am

Lottomike.....
Don't you think the Tenn melt down example will have legs in these other states?
The King has no longer has any clothes ! For sure in Tenn anyway. The state will never get back the confidence of the players there.
I think that there is going to be a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT in Tenn just around the corner that will give these other STATES .......second thoughts.

The only real failure .....is the failure to try.

Luck is a very rare thing....... Odds not so much.

Odds never change .....but probability does.

Win d
Badger

Wisconsin
United States
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March 27, 2003
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Aug 22, 2007, 7:41 am

Quote: Originally posted by WIN D on Aug 22, 2007
Lottomike.....
Don't you think the Tenn melt down example will have legs in these other states?
The King has no longer has any clothes ! For sure in Tenn anyway. The state will never get back the confidence of the players there.
I think that there is going to be a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT in Tenn just around the corner that will give these other STATES .......second thoughts.

The American populace has a short memory. (just look at the elected officials that we re-elect)
The majority of players are just QP players anyway. They don't try and predict what will fall. They will still buy their QPs. Even the TN problem (which they of course say was not a problem) won't change anything. Much like govt, the LCs do what they want to do, then spin it to make it sound like an improvement. And they know even if there is a "blip" in purchase of tickets, it too will pass.

============

How can you tell if a politician is lying?

Answer: His lips are moving.
LOTTOMIKE

Tennessee
United States
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Aug 22, 2007, 8:10 am

Quote: Originally posted by WIN D on Aug 22, 2007
Lottomike.....
Don't you think the Tenn melt down example will have legs in these other states?
The King has no longer has any clothes ! For sure in Tenn anyway. The state will never get back the confidence of the players there.
I think that there is going to be a CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT in Tenn just around the corner that will give these other STATES .......second thoughts.

i would love for this to happen.it would be cool if it did.i'd love to see a class action suit take place.like badger said these days people have real short memories.within a month a high powerball jackpot and this 'fiasco' will be forgotten.sad but probably true.
WIN D

Stone Mountain*Georgia
United States
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November 2, 2002
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Aug 22, 2007, 8:43 am

Here is another question....
      Don't these States use independent "Auditors"? Price Waterhouse... KPMG ...etc

   So,,,, Don't the States pay these Geeks Thousands Dollars $$$$$ each year to Audit?

      Isn't it their job to "Audit" the actions...preceedings and results of the draws?

         These are supposed to be the "MATH Guys".... " The Bean Counters" ..."The Number Crunchers" The guys who oversee the results.... and CERTIFY

         Shouldn't these so called "Auditors" have a person on the staff that has the primary basic training to perform his duty ...... ? A simple ........ STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ?
                     That would have caught this much ...much earlier !
                                    Sue the Auditors ! Really.... Sue them too. They get paid to do a job and it's not like they didn't have hundreds of players holding up their hands.

The only real failure .....is the failure to try.

Luck is a very rare thing....... Odds not so much.

Odds never change .....but probability does.

Win d
opscure

United States
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August 21, 2007
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Aug 22, 2007, 9:24 am

Just like any gaming equipment for the casinos, all lottery equipment goes through a third party auditing company to ensure the code is properly written. This, in addition, to the third party auditors that were supposed to be on site monitoring the criteria of balls picked for each of the drawings. Although this is a programming failure, the responsible party are those that were paid specifically to ensure the code was properly written. So, I agree, sue the auditors.
tnlotto1

nashville
United States
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February 18, 2007
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Aug 22, 2007, 11:23 am

Quote: Originally posted by WIN D on Aug 22, 2007
Here is another question....
      Don't these States use independent "Auditors"? Price Waterhouse... KPMG ...etc

   So,,,, Don't the States pay these Geeks Thousands Dollars $$$$$ each year to Audit?

      Isn't it their job to "Audit" the actions...preceedings and results of the draws?

         These are supposed to be the "MATH Guys".... " The Bean Counters" ..."The Number Crunchers" The guys who oversee the results.... and CERTIFY

         Shouldn't these so called "Auditors" have a person on the staff that has the primary basic training to perform his duty ...... ? A simple ........ STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ?
                     That would have caught this much ...much earlier !
                                    Sue the Auditors ! Really.... Sue them too. They get paid to do a job and it's not like they didn't have hundreds of players holding up their hands.

you make a great point because back when TN had real drawings they would have the announcer stand there and a person from the audit place standing there too and they would announce which audit place they were from and then have the ball drawing. now you just see a cartoon/computer drawing and no people so you dont know who did the audit for that drawing
Todd

50

Chief Bottle Washer

New Jersey
United States
Member #1
May 31, 2000
27,930 Posts
Online

Aug 22, 2007, 1:16 pm

Quote: Originally posted by WIN D on Aug 22, 2007
Here is another question....
      Don't these States use independent "Auditors"? Price Waterhouse... KPMG ...etc

   So,,,, Don't the States pay these Geeks Thousands Dollars $$$$$ each year to Audit?

      Isn't it their job to "Audit" the actions...preceedings and results of the draws?

         These are supposed to be the "MATH Guys".... " The Bean Counters" ..."The Number Crunchers" The guys who oversee the results.... and CERTIFY

         Shouldn't these so called "Auditors" have a person on the staff that has the primary basic training to perform his duty ...... ? A simple ........ STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ?
                     That would have caught this much ...much earlier !
                                    Sue the Auditors ! Really.... Sue them too. They get paid to do a job and it's not like they didn't have hundreds of players holding up their hands.

Apparently there were two separate auditors to check the drawings — Smartplay International Inc. and Gaming Laboratories Inc., both of which are based in New Jersey (hmmmm....). (Documented here: https://www.lotterypost.com/news/161364)
The type of auditor you are referring to, like KPMG, audit the financial side of things, like jackpots, other prizes, distribution of funds, balance sheet, etc. The gaming auditors above are supposed to be able to determine if a drawing machine is operating properly.
Ultimately though, it is the Tennessee Lottery that is at fault. They are supposed to be the experts at their games. You can outsource the drawings, but you don't outsource your brain.
After a few drawings of no doubles they should have been more inquisitive. I'll bet they didn't bother to even look at the numbers themselves until players brought it to their attention. Then, I personally believe they told a tall tale when they told players that their people ran some sample drawings and saw doubles drawn. How could they possibly have done that?   Why isn't the media reporting that??
This is very upsetting, because it is completely unnessesary. Why the h*** did they switch the drawings in the first place? They wrecked their relatively new lottery, as far as I'm concerned. Not only are the drawings fake now, but their credibility is destroyed.

Check the State Lottery Report Card
What grade did your lottery earn?

Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
Help eliminate computerized drawings!
psykomo

United States
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May 30, 2004
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Aug 22, 2007, 2:13 pm

REMEMBER...............PSYKOMO sey's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If it aunt broke..."don't try to FIX it"<<<<<<
....FIX IT (WHO WOULD want to do THAT??)
DID anybody GET-IT ????????????(WHO would want to "FIX"......the LOTTERY?)
??????????????????????????????????????????????
BLESS the USA & ALL the BUBBLE BALL MACHINE'S^^^
PROTECT the SHEEP^^^^NO<<<<<<<<RNG
opscure

United States
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August 21, 2007
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Aug 22, 2007, 2:25 pm

Quote: Originally posted by Todd on Aug 22, 2007
Apparently there were two separate auditors to check the drawings — Smartplay International Inc. and Gaming Laboratories Inc., both of which are based in New Jersey (hmmmm....). (Documented here: https://www.lotterypost.com/news/161364)
The type of auditor you are referring to, like KPMG, audit the financial side of things, like jackpots, other prizes, distribution of funds, balance sheet, etc. The gaming auditors above are supposed to be able to determine if a drawing machine is operating properly.
Ultimately though, it is the Tennessee Lottery that is at fault. They are supposed to be the experts at their games. You can outsource the drawings, but you don't outsource your brain.
After a few drawings of no doubles they should have been more inquisitive. I'll bet they didn't bother to even look at the numbers themselves until players brought it to their attention. Then, I personally believe they told a tall tale when they told players that their people ran some sample drawings and saw doubles drawn. How could they possibly have done that? Why isn't the media reporting that??
This is very upsetting, because it is completely unnessesary. Why the h*** did they switch the drawings in the first place? They wrecked their relatively new lottery, as far as I'm concerned. Not only are the drawings fake now, but their credibility is destroyed.

According to that article it seems like Smartplay Int. is the manufacturer/vendor and Gaming Laboratories Inc. was the auditor. I think that Tenn. Lottery should have had additional auditors on site (in Tenn.) and that sufficient testing should have been done prior to deployment. This, while being a silly programming error, should have been caught by the lottery before the drawings went public. Also, why did it take them so long to get a fix for this, when so many people were complaining? did the complaints go ignored? Was the manufacturer unable to change the u to an r? Something tells me that this was an problem with the lottery employees and their reaction to customer complaints/questions.

The TN lottery will undoubtedly try and sue the two third-party vendors, but learning more of the details has me changing my mind and leaning more of the blame on the TN lottery and their internal processes then the auditing company (who should have verified the code) or the mfg who made the typo.

Arizona
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June 10, 2007
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Aug 22, 2007, 4:06 pm

There seems to be a trend towards moving to computerized (Random Number Generator - RNG) drawings. For one thing, state lotteries say that they are "cost effective". They are easier and cheaper to maintain in the long run and maybe even cheaper to buy to begin with. I'm not crazy about the idea to begin with, mistakes can be made, like the one with the Tenn. Lottery. I think that part of the problem is that it is so much easier to believe that it truely is random with a physical ball based system, than compared to a "black box" computer based RNG system where we can't see what is really going on. We have to take "their word" and take it on faith and believe that it really is random without really being sure, which can be quite disconcerting, especially after we find out that a mistake has been made like with the case of the Tenn. Lottery. The Arizona Lottery has changed over to a computerized RNG system for its drawings, and in its FAQ section, it answered many questions concerning this new system. Funny, I posted this FAQ section in an earlier post, and it was viewed many times, but nobody posted a response (it may have been too long and/or boring for people to take an interest in). But here is a little of it again here, which may answer why states are changing to computerized RNG systems.

Q:		What types of future capabilities does this system offer?
A:		The digital drawing system technology will eventually enable us to distribute the winning numbers in an animated package to a statewide audience. Beginning May 2, the animation package can be seen at approximately 10:25 p.m. during the KPNX-TV Channel 12 newscast.

Q:		How much will it cost to maintain a Digital Drawing System machine?
A:		Because it isn’t a “mechanical” system, like a drawing ball machine, maintenance for a digital draw machine is minimal and entails bi-annual cleaning and servicing by Smartplay to ensure that all cooling vents and fans operate correctly. We no longer have to worry about ‘mechanical’ malfunctions (loose doors, loose screws, low suction in the shafts etc.) or the maintenance of the drawing balls (managing 13 sets of balls included weighing them, washing them and submitting them to the Department of Public Safety for certification before use).

Q:		Why didn’t you just replace the old machines with new ones?
A:		The decision was based on cost effectiveness and improved technological capabilities. The Lottery purchased three Origin™ System machines for a total of $70,000. It would have cost nearly $100,000 to replace the two drawing ball machines – the one used for The Pick and Fantasy 5 and the one used for Pick 3. The costs for replacing the ball sets would have been in excess of $28,000 ($2,000 to $3,000 per set for four sets of Fantasy 5 and The Pick balls and five sets for Pick 3). In addition, the Lottery would have continued to fund costs for ongoing maintenance of the mechanical drawing ball machines and the ball sets, as well as personnel required to manage the mechanical drawings that were conducted at Channel 12, where the machines were housed. The decision to move to a digital draw system wasn’t made in haste. We sought counsel and ideas from other state lotteries, conducted research regarding the drawing process of online games and surveyed our players. Overall, people supported a change to a digital draw after they learned about future opportunities for communicating the winning numbers, its cost-effectiveness and its security and integrity.

Q:		How will the new system affect game odds?
A:		It has no effect on the odds.

Q:		What other lotteries have converted from drawing machines to digital drawing technology?
A:		Other North American lotteries that have already converted from mechanical drawing machines to digital drawing systems are Colorado, Delaware, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, Oregon, and South Dakota. Washington is in the process of conversion. Integrity is the cornerstone of a successful lottery organization. To ensure the highest ethical and technical standards, these and other lotteries worldwide have independent laboratories perform various statistical tests for randomness. (I highlighted an interesting sentence, and I should mention that the system was purchased from Smartplay)

Money can't buy you happiness, but I sure could afford the misery that it brings! Wink

opscure

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August 21, 2007
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Aug 22, 2007, 4:28 pm

Thanks ArtVandalay for posting that FAQ, it does help to show why states are moving towards the rng systems (not a huge fan, either). I come from somewhat of a technical background (not a super geek, but I like electronics) and I know that when ever custom software is produced there are going to be bugs. Some of these may be big and some may be small, but ultimatly there will be errors in the code. You see this almost daily with Microsoft products, yet no one seems to be throwing away their windows pc. My point is that even though smartplay had an error in the program, I still believe the vendor is at less of fault then the auditing company or the TN Lottery for allowing this to go unnoticed for over three weeks (maybe longer if any testing was done???). Considering that there are digital systems in "Colorado, Delaware, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, Oregon, and South Dakota." and this is the first issue that has occured, I really don't think it will put smartplay out of business.

Well I really hope that this is the last of the issues with the TN lottery, now to go collect on my tickets from the last 3 weeks. :)
psykomo

United States
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May 30, 2004
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Aug 22, 2007, 5:36 pm

Quote: Originally posted by psykomo on Aug 22, 2007
REMEMBER...............PSYKOMO sey's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If it aunt broke..."don't try to FIX it"<<<<<<
....FIX IT (WHO WOULD want to do THAT??)
DID anybody GET-IT ????????????(WHO would want to "FIX"......the LOTTERY?)
??????????????????????????????????????????????
BLESS the USA & ALL the BUBBLE BALL MACHINE'S^^^
PROTECT the SHEEP^^^^NO<<<<<<<<RNG

REALLY, really<<<<<<<<who give's a KRAP about BALLs or RNG????
DON't make my livin on EITHER<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
BUT,.............someone don't like to leave any DNA>>>>>>>BEHIND!
SO,..............with no BALL handl'g & no DNA to back-up the FACT's??
HOW do we back-up the FACT'ssssssssssssssssssssssssss
who's D father of D number's??
psykomo

United States
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May 30, 2004
5,289 Posts
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Aug 22, 2007, 5:56 pm

Quote: Originally posted by psykomo on Aug 22, 2007
REALLY, really<<<<<<<<who give's a KRAP about BALLs or RNG????
DON't make my livin on EITHER<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
BUT,.............someone don't like to leave any DNA>>>>>>>BEHIND!
SO,..............with no BALL handl'g & no DNA to back-up the FACT's??
HOW do we back-up the FACT'ssssssssssssssssssssssssss
who's D father of D number's??

RNG explaine>>>>>>ball handle'g
(does the computer tickel D ball's>>>>>>>>>>)???????????????
does D computer LEAVE???FINGERPTINT'$$$$$$$
the gull's wanta>
"KNOW">>>>>>>>
LOTTOMIKE

Tennessee
United States
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October 15, 2004
11,352 Posts
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Aug 24, 2007, 3:32 am

look at this poll florida has right now.this is serious.they are starting to fall like dominos.the latest is missouri,hot lotto and now tennessee.plus you got florida and its sneaky poll.

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computerized drawings set to take over the lottery in a few years?Prev TopicNext Topic

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