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LottoMetro

Happyland
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Nov 14, 2014, 12:15 am

Quote: Originally posted by chris-chase on Nov 13, 2014
Lottometro..you are dead wrong. I guess you never heard of Clearnace Jones and the so called ten Percenters. In a nutshell it is people

who cash other peoples winning lottery tickets for them so they can avoid either the taxes or other obligations they may owe (ie child support etc)

In any case i am saying you are wrong because Jones cashed in millions of dollars of winning tickets over the past decade and wrote every "win" off as a loss

and even got a refund. The state fought him..and lost. He kept meticulious records. Now obviously you can't write off millions as a loss while you have a

million in the bank...There is a whole underground economy of people cashing other people's winnings in for them. The only way this is worthwhile for

them is the 10% take AND the fact that they CAN write it ALL off.

Search Clarance Jones Massachusetts lottery and you will see the articles on him and others like him. I am not allowed to post links to it

Clarance got away with it due to technicalities. First, the state made an error in calculation. Clarance walked away with a whopping $25,000. The state thought it was in the millions (boy did they look stupid). Second, the state's auditors didn't review enough of his records to substantiate their assumptions (being a 10%-er). They thought that they could audit a few and that would be enough evidence (they were lazy). That is it. So the "win" in court by Clarance was a fluke and wouldn't be a precedent for future prosecutions. Anyway, I wasn't really referring to 10%-ers with my response. Cashing in other people's tickets is a little different (i.e. providing the weapon doesn't make you the killer) than intentionally buying or acquiring losing tickets to erase your own loss, which is blatant tax evasion. You can get away with picking up tickets off the ground but like my example, if you start buying them from places you've never visited, the IRS will have a stronger case.

I don't blame people for the strategy and most here would be tempted to use it, but the IRS isn't going to stay quiet forever and eventually it will backfire. I would not be surprised if they start capping the deductions for gambling losses, if cases like these keep popping up.

If the chances of winning the jackpot are so slim, why play when the jackpot is so small? Your chances never change, but the potential payoff does.
If a crystal ball showed you the future of the rest of your life, and in that future you will never win a jackpot, would you still play?

P&L % = Total Win($)/Total Wager($) - 1
GiveFive

Florida - West Coast
United States
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June 10, 2010
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Nov 14, 2014, 7:27 am

Quote: Originally posted by LottoMetro on Nov 13, 2014
I'm pretty sure that in most states the clerks are supposed to tear up or mark through tickets after cashing them.

Even if they don't, this would only work for multi-play printed tickets, since obviously a winning scratch-off cannot be used as a loss.

So it is likely the clerk at that store has a dedicated recycling bin or what not for players to throw away losing tickets. Also possible is that those tickets belong to the clerks. I see clerks buying tickets all the time. They get a commission from selling them which actually lowers (albeit only slightly) their cost to play.

Buying loser tickets to offset taxes is all fine and dandy until the IRS audits and figures out that there is no way you purchased a Mega Millions ticket halfway across the state during your smoke break at Bank of America. Have fun with that felony. Audits on lottery winners do happen. More frequently than you think.

Well Metro, while I do admire your willingness to look for the best in people, there's another aspect to this that you just can't see via the screen on your computer.

See, this lotto joint I'm talkin' about is strictly a low brow joint. Cruddy, dark, dingy, and dirty, the whole nine yards. Which is why I kinda like the place!

They got guys in there that say things like "Fuhgeddabowdit" or "Youse gonna make me do sumpin youse aint gonna like" Some of those guys might even have been a "Yardbird in the Big House", if ya get my drift. They're the kind of guys who aint much afraid of The IRS.

All kidding aside, knowing the owner as I do, he doesn't have a "dedicated recycling bin" for losing tickets! Not him. No way, no how. Although he does have a baseball bat and a snub-nosed 38 Colt Special under the counter. G5

Play Smart!
chris-chase

United States
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October 25, 2014
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Nov 14, 2014, 9:48 am

Quote: Originally posted by LottoMetro on Nov 14, 2014
Clarance got away with it due to technicalities. First, the state made an error in calculation. Clarance walked away with a whopping $25,000. The state thought it was in the millions (boy did they look stupid). Second, the state's auditors didn't review enough of his records to substantiate their assumptions (being a 10%-er). They thought that they could audit a few and that would be enough evidence (they were lazy). That is it. So the "win" in court by Clarance was a fluke and wouldn't be a precedent for future prosecutions. Anyway, I wasn't really referring to 10%-ers with my response. Cashing in other people's tickets is a little different (i.e. providing the weapon doesn't make you the killer) than intentionally buying or acquiring losing tickets to erase your own loss, which is blatant tax evasion. You can get away with picking up tickets off the ground but like my example, if you start buying them from places you've never visited, the IRS will have a stronger case.

I don't blame people for the strategy and most here would be tempted to use it, but the IRS isn't going to stay quiet forever and eventually it will backfire. I would not be surprised if they start capping the deductions for gambling losses, if cases like these keep popping up.

Fair point Lotto Metro. The 10%ers are the extreme. You have to have common sense if you planned on doing it.

If I had a 10k win I am writing ALL of it off. Collecting tickets locally is easily done. Factor in any other gambling you

may do (ie Casino, horse track etc) and can easily be written off against your win without any real red flags. The

trouble starts when you have a huge win and are trying to write that whole thing off dollar for dollar.

Not to get too far off topic but the fact that there are even taxes allowed on state ran lotto games is absurd in

it's own right. Doesn't the state all ready take in nearly have of the advertised jackpot to begin with??

I understand it IS "income" when you win it...but jeez....let the states flip the Fed Tax due...
Pick3Guy

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June 5, 2014
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Nov 15, 2014, 2:37 am

Quote: Originally posted by GiveFive on Nov 13, 2014
Ever notice what the clerk does with your twenty dollar winning ticket after you cash it? Did they give it back to you, or did you think that they threw it in a garbage pail behind the counter?

If you didnt get it back, maybe they threw it in the garbage, and maybe they didn't.

Recently I learned that in one local convenience store that I frequent to buy lottery tickets, there's a cardboard box under the counter, and all low tier winning tickets cashed in that store end up in that box.

The story behind this goes like this; The store owner had a friend or relative that won a $40,000 prize. In order to reduce the amount of income taxes that the friend/relative would need to pay, losing tickets are needed to prove other gambling losses. (Remember, there were probably a few losing lines on that winning ticket) Also, it's said that the store owner retreives any losing tickets from all of the trash cans both inside and outside of the store. It's only rumour, but it's also said that the friend/relative who won the $40,0000, won it years ago, so there is no need now to prove gambling losses. So now days, the tickets that end up in the cardboard box are sold to anyone who might need to offset a medium sized lottery win...

I didn't believe any of this until I saw with my own two eyes the cardboard box under the counter in that very store, chock full of scratched off scratch offs and online game tickets.

So, how do you know that the tickets are being kept for the purpose of reducing the amount of income taxes?
GiveFive

Florida - West Coast
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Nov 15, 2014, 9:02 am

Quote: Originally posted by Pick3Guy on Nov 15, 2014
So, how do you know that the tickets are being kept for the purpose of reducing the amount of income taxes?

I don't know why they're being kept. It's all rumour and speculation.

But then, I bet you cant give me another good reason as to why they're keeping discarded losing lottery tickets. What else can you do with them besides evading (or even legitimately reducing) income taxes? G5

Play Smart!
RJOh

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Nov 15, 2014, 4:57 pm

Quote: Originally posted by GiveFive on Nov 15, 2014
I don't know why they're being kept. It's all rumour and speculation.

But then, I bet you cant give me another good reason as to why they're keeping discarded losing lottery tickets. What else can you do with them besides evading (or even legitimately reducing) income taxes? G5

For one thing states allow retailers to keep winning tickets they cash and for another as one retailer told me he gets tire of crooks bringing in winning tickets that have been cashed else where and arguing with his clerks when the terminal shows the tickets have already been cashed.

* you don't need to buy every combination, just the winning ones *
GiveFive

Florida - West Coast
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Nov 16, 2014, 12:21 pm

Quote: Originally posted by RJOh on Nov 15, 2014
For one thing states allow retailers to keep winning tickets they cash and for another as one retailer told me he gets tire of crooks bringing in winning tickets that have been cashed else where and arguing with his clerks when the terminal shows the tickets have already been cashed.

I agree, retailers are allowed to keep them. But what other purpose can the kept losing tickets serve other than for them to be used to offset gambling winnings? (legally or illegally)

I'm not sure I understand what a crook bringing a previously cashed winning ticket into a store has to do with losers that are already in the box under the counter. I'm sure retailers do get tired of somebody trying to scam them with a previously cashed ticket, but the losing tickets already in the box under the counter aren't going to stop crooks from coming into the store and trying to scam the retailer.

Play Smart!
haymaker

Egg Harbor twp.south Jersey shore
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Nov 16, 2014, 12:58 pm

I see a lot of scratchers for sale on ebay.

Amazing that anyone would collect them.

But I have a large matchbook collection, about 600 books,

as well as a licence plate collection, at least one for each state and about 150 overall.

These are hobbies that cost next to nothing, the thing is, once people know you collect something, they collect for you.

I don't actively look for this stuff any more, the matchbooks are hard to come by now that most don't smoke anymore.

Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds -- Charles Mackay LL.D.
RJOh

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Nov 17, 2014, 2:00 pm

Quote: Originally posted by GiveFive on Nov 16, 2014
I agree, retailers are allowed to keep them. But what other purpose can the kept losing tickets serve other than for them to be used to offset gambling winnings? (legally or illegally)

I'm not sure I understand what a crook bringing a previously cashed winning ticket into a store has to do with losers that are already in the box under the counter. I'm sure retailers do get tired of somebody trying to scam them with a previously cashed ticket, but the losing tickets already in the box under the counter aren't going to stop crooks from coming into the store and trying to scam the retailer.

I'm not sure I understand what a crook bringing a previously cashed winning ticket into a store has to do with losers that are already in the box under the counter.

Retailers don't care to have their clerks time taken up rechecking tickets these crooks (dumpster divers) bring in to be checked again.

* you don't need to buy every combination, just the winning ones *

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