A popular lottery Internet Web site is opposing a controversial industry trend head-on, in an attempt to eliminate computer-generated drawings from all US lottery games.
Among the 41 states and the District of Columbia offering lottery games to the public, there are approximately 175 different lottery games. In almost every one of those games the player selects three or more numbers, and those numbers are compared against numbers randomly selected by the state lottery to determine who is the winner.
In the past, the state lotteries have used mechanical drawing machines, such as the spinning drums with numbered ping-pong balls inside, to select the random numbers.
Now some states are replacing those draw machines with computerized drawings, in which a computer selects the winning numbers, without any means for players to see how the numbers are being selected.
And that's just the start of the controversy.
According to the popular lottery Web site Lottery Post (www.lotterypost.com), states justify the switchover to computerized drawings by pointing to cost savings, but those are costs which may never materialize. Worse, any savings may be offset by losses due to decreased player participation.
Other arguments against computerized drawings include:
" Because computers are precise instruments, they are not designed to think randomly. Thus, depending on the sophistication of the algorithm used by the computer to generate the lottery results, computers can create patterns of numbers, or favor certain numbers, rather than producing truly random numbers.
" A computer can be hacked into and the program can be changed to produce any sequence of numbers that the hacker desires. If the hacker is clever enough they may be able to cover their tracks for some time, in the meantime taking the lottery -- and all of the other players -- for an expensive ride.
" Some or all of the savings by moving to computers may be offset by losses in player confidence and production costs of computer animations that display the computer-generated numbers as if they were drawn by a physical lottery machine.
" Player confidence may be further eroded since a side effect of computerized drawings appears to be the elimination of live televised lottery drawings. The public is informed of the drawing results without the ability to witness the drawing.
To counter the growing trend of computerized drawings, Lottery Post posted an online petition that will be used in taking the case to the federal government, and imposing standards which all state lotteries must follow.
The petition calls for the elimination of all computerized drawings currently in effect, as well as prdventing the introduction of any further computerized drawings.
Further, live televised drawings are demanded for every lottery game.
Indiana resident Jim Grimes, who has led a fight in his state against the Hoosier Lottery's computerized drawings, is taking the issue to the national stage.
Grimes will be taking the signatures collected on the Petition for True Lottery Drawings to his congressman, along with a collection of data and industry stories showing the ill effects of computerized drawings.
If Grimes has his way, he and the petition signatories will impose federal mandates on the state lotteries to ensure fair and consistent drawing procedures among all states.
Only time will tell how this David vs. Goliath story will turn out, but it appears that the state lotteries will have a real fight on their hands if they want to continue having computers select their winning numbers.
Well, Jim I'm glad that you are doing this. Like I said I believe this is the only way to get the ball rolling. Also you might want to get some friends to print up some petition papers to pass around and get personalized signatures also. maybe you can find some s who will help out in the different states that use this system also to get additional signatures. The more signatures you get will help in your efforts to get the decision to switch back to ball operated games.
" A computer can be hacked into and the program can be changed to produce any sequence of numbers that the hacker desires. If the hacker is clever enough they may be able to cover their tracks for some time, in the meantime taking the lottery -- and all of the other players -- for an expensive ride.
I don't see why any state lottery would have the RNG hooked up to any kind of network that would put it at risk for being hacked. So this is a weak argument.
" Some or all of the savings by moving to computers may be offset by losses in player confidence and production costs of computer animations that display the computer-generated numbers as if they were drawn by a physical lottery machine.
I'm quite sure the production costs for doing computer animations is alot cheaper than paying a lottery official to draw out the ping pong balls. Again, another weak argument.
I'm not saying I like the computerized drawings. I would actually prefer the live drawings, but if you are going to take this to Congress, just make sure you have strong arguments.
I have to agree with smd on the "hacking" argument because I cant fathom any lottery commission having the computer that generates numbers hooked up to the internet. Any "hacking" would have to come from an employee.....or...."inside job" from somebody not authorized to use the lottery computer.
I do feel the public should be allowed to have a "public viewing" of the numbers when they are drawn though although I havent found computerized drawings having any impact on the Pick 3 game which I track. The methods which I use arent effected one way or the other if drawings are computerized.
Does anyone have a list of the computer drawing States? Here in California, the Daily game (Mid & Eve) and Fantasy-5 uses computers for their numbers, but CASL+ still uses balls. I think LA was the first State to use computers. From what I understand, PA uses a computer for Midday draw, and MO has gone to computers. Any other States?
Quote:Originally posted by smd173 on August 29, 2004
" A computer can be hacked into and the program can be changed to produce any sequence of numbers that the hacker desires. If the hacker is clever enough they may be able to cover their tracks for some time, in the meantime taking the lottery -- and all of the other players -- for an expensive ride.
I don't see why any state lottery would have the RNG hooked up to any kind of network that would put it at risk for being hacked. So this is a weak argument.
Read a Tom Clancy book. A hacker can't hack a totally isolated computer, but a machine that is constantly checked and tested had to be ordered and perhaps repaired if it has accessible drive ports can have code added.
" Some or all of the savings by moving to computers may be offset by losses in player confidence and production costs of computer animations that display the computer-generated numbers as if they were drawn by a physical lottery machine.
I'm quite sure the production costs for doing computer animations is alot cheaper than paying a lottery official to draw out the ping pong balls. Again, another weak argument.
Of course it's cheaper, but people like to see the draw. Computer draws are the equlivent of people walking into a room, locking the door and then coming out with the winning numbers, a process americans despise. If only one percent of players stop playing or never start because they were warned off the savings are a drop in the bucket compared to the loss in sales. BobP
I'm not saying I like the computerized drawings. I would actually prefer the live drawings, but if you are going to take this to Congress, just make sure you have strong arguments.
" A computer can be hacked into and the program can be changed to produce any sequence of numbers that the hacker desires. If the hacker is clever enough they may be able to cover their tracks for some time, in the meantime taking the lottery -- and all of the other players -- for an expensive ride.
Smd173 wrote:
I don't see why any state lottery would have the RNG hooked up to any kind of network that would put it at risk for being hacked. So this is a weak argument.
The argument is weak because you don't see why they would do this? Well, smd173, you've convinced me. Your compelling argument blows my theories, and the evidence LosingJeff and I have collected, clear out of the water. I can't imagine why I never saw that; thanks for pointing it out. Apparently, the Hoosier Lottery was lying about their two draw machines being located three miles apart, and to believe they're connected is a ridiculous notion. Next time, I'll know to verify my information with you before posting it. Now, just so I'm clear, do they really keep one of their official draw machines at Scientific Games offices in Indianapolis? The Hoosier Lottery is under that impression; I'd just like to know if they're wrong.
" Some or all of the savings by moving to computers may be offset by losses in player confidence and production costs of computer animations that display the computer-generated numbers as if they were drawn by a physical lottery machine.
Smd173 continues:
I'm quite sure the production costs for doing computer animations is alot cheaper than paying a lottery official to draw out the ping pong balls. Again, another weak argument.
Ah. Another gem. I don't know how I could have been so stupid; especially since, in Indiana, they still pay the woman to call out the numbers (on a local station) as they're being displayed, one by one, with the animation program, but her salary wouldn't be included in the actual production costs. Again, your well-thought-out, and well-informed, views totally negate my own.
I bow to your superior intellect and am humbled by your obvious expertise.
I notice you've neglected to divulge your state of residence but, if you'd care to let us know where you live, I'll be happy to campaign for an RNG in your state lottery. As a matter of fact, you can have ours.
Why not ask everyone to go on a $$Dollar Diet$$? If.... players elect to "get lean" maby some of the states will get the message. Players can put money aside for the games at some later date if the states, agree with players. Courts will take years and money to get anywhere near a solution. Otherwise, the states and lottery management have "the right" to present and change the games as they see fit. REMEMBER, it's YOH honey, Do whah you WANNA DO!
GOOD "fat" LUCK...................................Psykomo
Quote:Originally posted by psykomo on August 29, 2004
Why not ask everyone to go on a $$Dollar Diet$$? If.... players elect to "get lean" maby some of the states will get the message. Players can put money aside for the games at some later date if the states, agree with players. Courts will take years and money to get anywhere near a solution. Otherwise, the states and lottery management have "the right" to present and change the games as they see fit. REMEMBER, it's YOH honey, Do whah you WANNA DO!
GOOD "fat" LUCK...................................Psykomo
Beyond the burden of asking everyone is the obvious question of making the connection between any public action and the people who run things. Every time I see a message like drive with your lights on today to protest gas prices or other such gimick it never gets very far or to the people who run things.
However, the best example of such purblic action is every 4th of July when not even our law makers can miss the billions of pops of "illegal" fireworks, the people totally ignore the law by the millions and yet are in turn ignored.
Take the time to write your lottery and let them know you won't play a computerized game and don't want one ever. Address it to the director not the peon who answers the mail. Do it today. BobP
Excellent point....write to your lottery directors and tell them you will no longer play the game if it becomes computerized.
I will be doing this as soon as I get off L.P. and would seriously urge others to follow this sage advice. When the lottery director's job is at stake, state lottery revenues will be the ultimate determinators whether that director keeps their job and whether the state continues to get 50% of the revenues we are contributing to.
Thanks Bob. I hope everyone on these forums takes the time to do this, as well as to sign the L.P. petition. This is a no-brainer that needs action fast because of the quick spread of this potentially dishonest way to pick our lottery numbers.
Your sarcastic reply is not appreciated and I can guarantee you that if you take that kind of attitude with you as you try to get the RNG abolished in Indiana, you'll have the reverse effect.
I was not aware of what evidence you and LosingJeff had accumlated. So all you had to do was present it, or direct me to where you had presented it previously.
I live in PA which uses the RNG for their Mid Day drawings. Because of your wonderful attitude, I will not sign your petition or help you in any way to achieve your goal.
Before taking things so lightly, you should really try to understand that with billions of dollars at stake, people are apt to do things that they wouldn't otherwise. You should listen to what BobP said: hacking is very feasible. And if you think the LOTTERY is renowned for their superior IT expertise, you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm sure they're more than capable of handling what programming tasks are needed, but they are not going to be industry leaders in technology security.
Sad that you decided to use your space here by trying to pick on a couple of points you disagree with, rather than perhaps adding something positive. Clipper, I believe the petition does indeed mention an inside job, so I'm not sure why you would use it as a counter-point.
I hope that we'll all be able to reconcile our differences in order to pull together on this very important campaign. Let's try to look at the big picture. This issue is far more important than any debate on board. We need unity.
The problem with the "Dollar Diet" is that you will never be able to get enough people to pull together to make a difference. While the majority might believe in the cause, or at least its principles, they would rather let others put forth the actual effort to change things. A good example of this would be the dismal voter turnout we see in every election in this country. The non-voters complain about the state of the nation as much, or more, than the voters do, and claim they're protesting current conditions by withholding their votes (Yeah, that'll show 'em).
Then you have the die-hards that just refuse to believe the facts. These people believe that, if they don't see the gun that's pointed at their heads, they can't be harmed by its bullets, so they just turn their heads and pretend that nothing is happening, all the while trying to convince everyone else that they aren't really seeing what they're looking at. These same people, generally speaking, will accept, and vehemently defend, such abstract concepts as life after death, psychics, reincarnation or ESP, and watch professional wrestling on Pay-Per-View.
A word of caution, however. Your lottery director serves at the behest of the governor who appointed him, and that of the lottery commission who employs him. If you really want to make a difference, write directly to your governor - flood his mansion with letters, and make certain to remind him of how Arnold Swarzenegger attained his current position. Recall elections are not exclusive to California...
It should be obvious, given the tremendous revenues generated by state lotteries, that an extremely powerful lobby could be created by the lottery players in this country. Until more players figure that out for themselves, we're going to have to muddle through as best we can.
You don't appreciate my sarcasm, but you should appreciate it, because the rules dictate that I cannot use my Navy vocabulary on this forum to give you the dressing down you had coming. If you didn't want, or didn't expect me to defend myself, you had no business climbing into the ring.
Ignorance has a price, my friend, and you just made a down payment. You're a Top 100 Poster, and to calim that you were not aware of what LosingJeff and I have presented on this forum over the past fourteen months is, at best, difficult to believe. See, THAT is a weak argument. While we're on the subject, you can't "guarantee" any such outcome, as you still haven't bothered to educate yourself on the issue at hand, preferring instead to attack legitimate and valid points that have been plastered all over this site and others. You have an annoying habit of presenting your opinions as hard facts.
You took it upon yourself to proclaim to the entire world that our arguments were weak because you didn't see something or other. You didn't bother to ask for evidence; you didn't bother reading other posts on the subject, including a newspaper article that's been posted here since June 20th. You read a few words on one page, formed and then posted an expert opinion based on those few words, and now you're crying because I came out swinging when you backed me into a corner.
I will defend to the death the evidence I have on this issue, and ANYONE who challenges that evidence had better have something solid to back it up. If you, have evidence that counters mine, I would be happy to consider it, but I won't waste my time if it's no more substantial than the fact that you "don't see it."
You got what you deserved, and I will not apologize.
Go ahead and punish me by not signing the petition. I'm confident I will soon recover from this crippling blow, although I can't understand why you would kick yourself in the groin in an attempt to hurt me. The problems you're currently facing with your state lottery have already run their course in mine. The difference is, I know what's coming next to Pennsylvania's lottery, but you already have that figured out, don't you?
The vast majority of number players probably doesn't know the difference about ball machines or RNG's that make the games happen. More likely it's the diehard player that knows the rng's are a scam. You have to persuade the casual players to sign the petition as well. And your absolutely right about contacting the governor or the attorney general it is these people who ask their various departments heads to find cost cutting ways of saving the state money. When one states goes RNG's then it may filter down to all or most of the other states as being a normal process. The lottery directors of most states are familiar with other states practices. If they see rng's working in other states then it wouldn't take much for them to implement it in all states. The people's voice is the only way to keep this from happening and while everyone doesn't actually play these lottery games they would become involved it were to go to a vote in the election process. They might side with the state and not the players. So not only are you going to just petition on the Internet. You might want to take this petition into the streets and various lottery retailers so you can get enough signatures to get something going. You have to get the word out about this. Also you have to show examples of how ball machines are desired over rng's. You might also consider that the lottery directors of one state are in direct communication with lottery directors in other states I'm sure that from time to time they get together and brainstorm about how the lottery could benefit from various games and practices. Also they probably will find about this threads topic before noon tomorrow. Your commitment to getting as many petitioners as possible is now a priority and it wouldn't hurt to get a senator or congressman on your side as well as legal advice as to what steps to take once you have enough signatures.
I just want you to realize that you could have made your point to me in a much more proactive way. All you had to do was say, "smd, I did the research and found out x, y, and z in Indiana and you are off base with your comments." And that would have made your point. Instead, you launch into a tirade like I personally attacked you. That was never my intention.
I'm sure your petition will not be crippled by me not signing it. However, I would have signed it. So you have one less name on there.
I am the one who put together all the wording that appears on this site. Not Jim. If you have some criticisms of the wording, please direct them at me.
I happen to agree with Jim that you should not attack something as "weak", unless you state good reasons for doing so.
This is a very important topic, and I would ask that if you're going to throw out blanket statements, that you PM me with them instead of muddying the waters.
I don't think the problem is that somebody will get in over the Internet and mess with the way the computer selects numbers. However, I could today get a job with the company that makes the computers, and I could make sure that on any future date, years out, say December 28, 2009, a specific set of numbers is drawn. Then I have 5 years to find myself a trusted buddy who will play those numbers for me, and we're off to the Bahamas.
It's not easy to do that, but given enough time, I believe I could do it, and nobody would know, afterwards, that it was me that did it, or how it got there. The only problem is that they'll probably update the machine or software version often enough....
There are challenges, but it could be done, by an insider. And that alone is reason enough to ban the method.
I am the one who put together all the wording that appears on this site. Not Jim. If you have some criticisms of the wording, please direct them at me.
I never had a problem with the wording of what you wrote Todd. So I don't even know why you brought that up.
I happen to agree with Jim that you should not attack something as "weak", unless you state good reasons for doing so.
It was my OPINION that your argument for banning RNG's based on hacking was weak. My reason WAS stated. I said because I don't believe that a state lottery would hook the RNG up to a network that could be hacked. Jim has evidence that shows the Hoosier Lottery does have the RNG hooked up in a fashion where it could be hacked. So my opinion was proven WRONG. That doesn't make it invalid for me to have posted it. This forum is here to promote discussion.
This is a very important topic, and I would ask that if you're going to throw out blanket statements, that you PM me with them instead of muddying the waters.
So whenever a topic is important to you, no one should post anything that would go against your arguments because that should just be handled in private? Isn't this a forum where everyone is free to post their opinions and debate issues?
You sound upset. Let's not keep going in this negative direction. Let's rally around the need to eliminate computerized drawings in every state, and prdvent your state from going to computerized drawings (if it has not already).
Tood = I havnt read the petition so my thinking of "inside job" came naturally as I didnt see any reason that a Lottery Commision would/should have their computer hooked up in such a way that it could be hacked from outside sources. One would think that such people would consider the possibilities of such if the computer wasnt isolated and take precautions to prdvent such occurences which I feel is a very reasonable assumption.
I believe I did say that I absolutely feel the people have a right to "see" the numbers drawn. Other then that I dont have a problem with computerized generations as the system I use to determine what to play isnt adversley effected by computerized drawings.
This is similar to electronic voting machines fraud. Theoretically both lotteries and electronic voting can be done in a solid way to prdvent fraud, hacking and other unfair criminal activities, but in both cases the stakes are so high for those wanting power and money that you have to assume if there is a flaw or weakness or programmer's backdoor that can be exploited to tip the scales it will be done and the public will be screwed. Those who program the computers really don't have a strong incentive to make sure the systems are rock solid and hack proof, both from the inside and the outside - in fact it seems they often only want an appearance of propriety while allowing access or insider knowledge to the special few. In computers, so much is hidden and a few lines of code among thousands can spell fraud and cheating.
Alleged correct votes appear, they say "trust us"; alleged random numbers pop up, they say "trust us." Well, we can vote on paper ballots and we can have easily checked ping pong balls provide the random numbers, then we won't have to trust them.
Vote by absentee ballot whereever electronic voting machines are in use, and boycott all lottery games that chose numbers by computer.
I've read all the comments and have not found a single comment referring to "wireless internet."
If someone can sit the coliseum in Italy and check their email with a wireless computer, what would stop a lottery official from accessing a remote lottery computer and doing all sorts of mischief to increase lottery profits?
Yes, you're right. That's one of a thousand different scenarios where the computers could be compromised. And that's the point. Why even go through this mess, introducing all kinds of risk and ill feelings, when the cost savings is insignificant or non-existant?
I don't know if this is possible or not. A few years ago I had a friend tell me this. He said a hacker who has the right codes can hack into a computer even when the power is off not disconnected from the power cord just turned off. He said that they connect through the modem and turn the computer on steal what information their after and shut the computer down. I never hear anyone else tell me this little tidbit but I suppose it's possible. Who knows. Ever since he told me that I usually unplug the cable modem cord. Now if this is a true statement dsl, cable, and wireless access might be just as easy to hack.
For regular PCs, that's really not possible, because modern modems rely on your computer's CPU and memory to do anything. If the power's off, there will be no problems.
Even if they could get in somehow, the lack of power would make the hard drive and memory inaccessible, so they could see or do nothing.
You don't need to unplug your modem anymore.
The only exception I know of is that some servers have a special card inside them that is connected to the network, and allows someone to logon to the card, even when the server is turned off. This allows them to turn the server on remotely, as well as monitor its temperature and if it's been tampered with. The card still does not give access to the hard drive or memory, becuase those things require power.
Quote:Originally posted by paintbrush on August 30, 2004
can't believe todd you started this petition balls have no patterns
or bais were as the computer does produce patterns..like here in calif
3 and 1 are sticking together..also 0 and 7 this is heavy in our!! favor
or course the pick 5 and 6 games are 570,000 to 41 million in one
odds ..we'll never going to hit those games..but are daily games
we're some of us make good money are going to lose!!!!when you
bring back complete random drawings...Is this lottery games just
a hobby for you????if you were playing seriously you would see the
bais in computer games are to the players advantage.....I hope
you rethink this stupid move....
good luck chris
time to do what i do best...ARGUING!
don't think that the lotteries cannot see what numbers players are playing most often, and don't think that a person cannot control the random number generator.
Even if an RNG is used in a totally honest game, the mere fact that the machine can be compromised in so many different, undetectable and unauditable ways is unacceptable.
The Hoosier Lottery, according to their CPA/CISA, downloaded their "RNG" from Lottery.com. Our Lottery Director, John Ross, told one of our state representatives that their own programmers wrote the code. One of them is obviously lying but, either way, how can we play with any degree of confidence, knowing that only one of them is lying?
Systematic corruption of even "smaller" prize games like Pick 3 can result in millions of dollars (collectively) being taken from player's pockets in order to go to the government. Jim has some great empirical evidence of this from Indiana.
I will sign the petition, and continue to play till the lottery goes to computers then I will bow out of the game. Regardless of the arguments, my opinion is that you can't call it a "random lottery game", when it is a played with a "programmable computer". and as far as hacking goes, even the military and the government have had problems with there "hack proof" security systems in the past......and I dont see the lottery spending more money on securing the devices than them....
I'VE BEEN AN AVID LOTTERY PLAYER FOR MANY YEARS, AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANY STATE RUN LOTTERY WOULD WANT TO COMPRIMIZE THEIR OWN INTEGRITY AS WELL AS RUNNING THE RISK OF LOSING REVENUE FROM THEIR OWN PLAYERS, FOR THE SAKE OF CUTTING COST!!!! I GUESS NO ONE HAS ENOUGH INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO STAND UP AND SAY "WHATS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE "NOT ONLY ARE THEY RISKING BEING HACKED INTO, BUT THEY'RE RISKING CUTTING STATE RUN PROGRAMS, WHICH ARE PROBABLY FUNDED IN PART BY THE LOTTERY! DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT WHEN YOU GIVE A LITTLE, YOU GET A LOT BACK IN RETURN, OR HAS STUPIDITY OVERRULED INTELLIGENCE. IT'S TIME FOR EVERY LOTTERY PLAYER TO STAND UP AND BE HEARD, BEFORE IGNORANCE RUNS RAMPID, AND PEOPLE GO BACK TO PLAYING THE NUMBERS WITH A BOOKIE. STATES WITH COMPUTORIZED GAMES SHOULD WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!!! MADDOG10 N.J.
Keep the balls bouncing!!!!!!
Well, Jim I'm glad that you are doing this. Like I said I believe this is the only way to get the ball rolling. Also you might want to get some friends to print up some petition papers to pass around and get personalized signatures also. maybe you can find some s who will help out in the different states that use this system also to get additional signatures. The more signatures you get will help in your efforts to get the decision to switch back to ball operated games.
" A computer can be hacked into and the program can be changed to produce any sequence of numbers that the hacker desires. If the hacker is clever enough they may be able to cover their tracks for some time, in the meantime taking the lottery -- and all of the other players -- for an expensive ride.
I don't see why any state lottery would have the RNG hooked up to any kind of network that would put it at risk for being hacked. So this is a weak argument.
" Some or all of the savings by moving to computers may be offset by losses in player confidence and production costs of computer animations that display the computer-generated numbers as if they were drawn by a physical lottery machine.
I'm quite sure the production costs for doing computer animations is alot cheaper than paying a lottery official to draw out the ping pong balls. Again, another weak argument.
I'm not saying I like the computerized drawings. I would actually prefer the live drawings, but if you are going to take this to Congress, just make sure you have strong arguments.
I have to agree with smd on the "hacking" argument because I cant fathom any lottery commission having the computer that generates numbers hooked up to the internet. Any "hacking" would have to come from an employee.....or...."inside job" from somebody not authorized to use the lottery computer.
I do feel the public should be allowed to have a "public viewing" of the numbers when they are drawn though although I havent found computerized drawings having any impact on the Pick 3 game which I track. The methods which I use arent effected one way or the other if drawings are computerized.
Does anyone have a list of the computer drawing States? Here in California, the Daily game (Mid & Eve) and Fantasy-5 uses computers for their numbers, but CASL+ still uses balls. I think LA was the first State to use computers. From what I understand, PA uses a computer for Midday draw, and MO has gone to computers. Any other States?
there's a thread that i started that has all of the states that use RNGs for their drawings.
Axis of Weasels.
" A computer can be hacked into and the program can be changed to produce any sequence of numbers that the hacker desires. If the hacker is clever enough they may be able to cover their tracks for some time, in the meantime taking the lottery -- and all of the other players -- for an expensive ride.
Smd173 wrote:
I don't see why any state lottery would have the RNG hooked up to any kind of network that would put it at risk for being hacked. So this is a weak argument.
The argument is weak because you don't see why they would do this? Well, smd173, you've convinced me. Your compelling argument blows my theories, and the evidence LosingJeff and I have collected, clear out of the water. I can't imagine why I never saw that; thanks for pointing it out. Apparently, the Hoosier Lottery was lying about their two draw machines being located three miles apart, and to believe they're connected is a ridiculous notion. Next time, I'll know to verify my information with you before posting it. Now, just so I'm clear, do they really keep one of their official draw machines at Scientific Games offices in Indianapolis? The Hoosier Lottery is under that impression; I'd just like to know if they're wrong.
" Some or all of the savings by moving to computers may be offset by losses in player confidence and production costs of computer animations that display the computer-generated numbers as if they were drawn by a physical lottery machine.
Smd173 continues:
I'm quite sure the production costs for doing computer animations is alot cheaper than paying a lottery official to draw out the ping pong balls. Again, another weak argument.
Ah. Another gem. I don't know how I could have been so stupid; especially since, in Indiana, they still pay the woman to call out the numbers (on a local station) as they're being displayed, one by one, with the animation program, but her salary wouldn't be included in the actual production costs. Again, your well-thought-out, and well-informed, views totally negate my own.
I bow to your superior intellect and am humbled by your obvious expertise.
I notice you've neglected to divulge your state of residence but, if you'd care to let us know where you live, I'll be happy to campaign for an RNG in your state lottery. As a matter of fact, you can have ours.
Why not ask everyone to go on a $$Dollar Diet$$? If.... players elect to "get lean" maby some of the states will get the message. Players can put money aside for the games at some later date if the states, agree with players. Courts will take years and money to get anywhere near a solution. Otherwise, the states and lottery management have "the right" to present and change the games as they see fit. REMEMBER, it's YOH honey, Do whah you WANNA DO!
GOOD "fat" LUCK...................................Psykomo
However, the best example of such purblic action is every 4th of July when not even our law makers can miss the billions of pops of "illegal" fireworks, the people totally ignore the law by the millions and yet are in turn ignored.
Take the time to write your lottery and let them know you won't play a computerized game and don't want one ever. Address it to the director not the peon who answers the mail. Do it today. BobP
Bob,
Excellent point....write to your lottery directors and tell them you will no longer play the game if it becomes computerized.
I will be doing this as soon as I get off L.P. and would seriously urge others to follow this sage advice. When the lottery director's job is at stake, state lottery revenues will be the ultimate determinators whether that director keeps their job and whether the state continues to get 50% of the revenues we are contributing to.
Thanks Bob. I hope everyone on these forums takes the time to do this, as well as to sign the L.P. petition. This is a no-brainer that needs action fast because of the quick spread of this potentially dishonest way to pick our lottery numbers.
Jim,
Your sarcastic reply is not appreciated and I can guarantee you that if you take that kind of attitude with you as you try to get the RNG abolished in Indiana, you'll have the reverse effect.
I was not aware of what evidence you and LosingJeff had accumlated. So all you had to do was present it, or direct me to where you had presented it previously.
I live in PA which uses the RNG for their Mid Day drawings. Because of your wonderful attitude, I will not sign your petition or help you in any way to achieve your goal.
smd183 & Clipper,
Before taking things so lightly, you should really try to understand that with billions of dollars at stake, people are apt to do things that they wouldn't otherwise. You should listen to what BobP said: hacking is very feasible. And if you think the LOTTERY is renowned for their superior IT expertise, you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm sure they're more than capable of handling what programming tasks are needed, but they are not going to be industry leaders in technology security.
Sad that you decided to use your space here by trying to pick on a couple of points you disagree with, rather than perhaps adding something positive. Clipper, I believe the petition does indeed mention an inside job, so I'm not sure why you would use it as a counter-point.
I hope that we'll all be able to reconcile our differences in order to pull together on this very important campaign. Let's try to look at the big picture. This issue is far more important than any debate on board. We need unity.
BobP makes an excellent point.
The problem with the "Dollar Diet" is that you will never be able to get enough people to pull together to make a difference. While the majority might believe in the cause, or at least its principles, they would rather let others put forth the actual effort to change things. A good example of this would be the dismal voter turnout we see in every election in this country. The non-voters complain about the state of the nation as much, or more, than the voters do, and claim they're protesting current conditions by withholding their votes (Yeah, that'll show 'em).
Then you have the die-hards that just refuse to believe the facts. These people believe that, if they don't see the gun that's pointed at their heads, they can't be harmed by its bullets, so they just turn their heads and pretend that nothing is happening, all the while trying to convince everyone else that they aren't really seeing what they're looking at. These same people, generally speaking, will accept, and vehemently defend, such abstract concepts as life after death, psychics, reincarnation or ESP, and watch professional wrestling on Pay-Per-View.
A word of caution, however. Your lottery director serves at the behest of the governor who appointed him, and that of the lottery commission who employs him. If you really want to make a difference, write directly to your governor - flood his mansion with letters, and make certain to remind him of how Arnold Swarzenegger attained his current position. Recall elections are not exclusive to California...
It should be obvious, given the tremendous revenues generated by state lotteries, that an extremely powerful lobby could be created by the lottery players in this country. Until more players figure that out for themselves, we're going to have to muddle through as best we can.
smd173:
You don't appreciate my sarcasm, but you should appreciate it, because the rules dictate that I cannot use my Navy vocabulary on this forum to give you the dressing down you had coming. If you didn't want, or didn't expect me to defend myself, you had no business climbing into the ring.
Ignorance has a price, my friend, and you just made a down payment. You're a Top 100 Poster, and to calim that you were not aware of what LosingJeff and I have presented on this forum over the past fourteen months is, at best, difficult to believe. See, THAT is a weak argument. While we're on the subject, you can't "guarantee" any such outcome, as you still haven't bothered to educate yourself on the issue at hand, preferring instead to attack legitimate and valid points that have been plastered all over this site and others. You have an annoying habit of presenting your opinions as hard facts.
You took it upon yourself to proclaim to the entire world that our arguments were weak because you didn't see something or other. You didn't bother to ask for evidence; you didn't bother reading other posts on the subject, including a newspaper article that's been posted here since June 20th. You read a few words on one page, formed and then posted an expert opinion based on those few words, and now you're crying because I came out swinging when you backed me into a corner.
I will defend to the death the evidence I have on this issue, and ANYONE who challenges that evidence had better have something solid to back it up. If you, have evidence that counters mine, I would be happy to consider it, but I won't waste my time if it's no more substantial than the fact that you "don't see it."
You got what you deserved, and I will not apologize.
Go ahead and punish me by not signing the petition. I'm confident I will soon recover from this crippling blow, although I can't understand why you would kick yourself in the groin in an attempt to hurt me. The problems you're currently facing with your state lottery have already run their course in mine. The difference is, I know what's coming next to Pennsylvania's lottery, but you already have that figured out, don't you?
Jim,
I don't want an apology from you.
I just want you to realize that you could have made your point to me in a much more proactive way. All you had to do was say, "smd, I did the research and found out x, y, and z in Indiana and you are off base with your comments." And that would have made your point. Instead, you launch into a tirade like I personally attacked you. That was never my intention.
I'm sure your petition will not be crippled by me not signing it. However, I would have signed it. So you have one less name on there.
smd173,
I am the one who put together all the wording that appears on this site. Not Jim. If you have some criticisms of the wording, please direct them at me.
I happen to agree with Jim that you should not attack something as "weak", unless you state good reasons for doing so.
This is a very important topic, and I would ask that if you're going to throw out blanket statements, that you PM me with them instead of muddying the waters.
Regarding hacking or meddling:
I don't think the problem is that somebody will get in over the Internet and mess with the way the computer selects numbers. However, I could today get a job with the company that makes the computers, and I could make sure that on any future date, years out, say December 28, 2009, a specific set of numbers is drawn. Then I have 5 years to find myself a trusted buddy who will play those numbers for me, and we're off to the Bahamas.
It's not easy to do that, but given enough time, I believe I could do it, and nobody would know, afterwards, that it was me that did it, or how it got there. The only problem is that they'll probably update the machine or software version often enough....
There are challenges, but it could be done, by an insider. And that alone is reason enough to ban the method.
You sound upset. Let's not keep going in this negative direction. Let's rally around the need to eliminate computerized drawings in every state, and prdvent your state from going to computerized drawings (if it has not already).
Sign the petition!
Tood = I havnt read the petition so my thinking of "inside job" came naturally as I didnt see any reason that a Lottery Commision would/should have their computer hooked up in such a way that it could be hacked from outside sources. One would think that such people would consider the possibilities of such if the computer wasnt isolated and take precautions to prdvent such occurences which I feel is a very reasonable assumption.
I believe I did say that I absolutely feel the people have a right to "see" the numbers drawn. Other then that I dont have a problem with computerized generations as the system I use to determine what to play isnt adversley effected by computerized drawings.
This is similar to electronic voting machines fraud. Theoretically both lotteries and electronic voting can be done in a solid way to prdvent fraud, hacking and other unfair criminal activities, but in both cases the stakes are so high for those wanting power and money that you have to assume if there is a flaw or weakness or programmer's backdoor that can be exploited to tip the scales it will be done and the public will be screwed. Those who program the computers really don't have a strong incentive to make sure the systems are rock solid and hack proof, both from the inside and the outside - in fact it seems they often only want an appearance of propriety while allowing access or insider knowledge to the special few. In computers, so much is hidden and a few lines of code among thousands can spell fraud and cheating.
Alleged correct votes appear, they say "trust us"; alleged random numbers pop up, they say "trust us." Well, we can vote on paper ballots and we can have easily checked ping pong balls provide the random numbers, then we won't have to trust them.
Vote by absentee ballot whereever electronic voting machines are in use, and boycott all lottery games that chose numbers by computer.
I've read all the comments and have not found a single comment referring to "wireless internet."
If someone can sit the coliseum in Italy and check their email with a wireless computer, what would stop a lottery official from accessing a remote lottery computer and doing all sorts of mischief to increase lottery profits?
Just a thought.
bobby623,
Yes, you're right. That's one of a thousand different scenarios where the computers could be compromised. And that's the point. Why even go through this mess, introducing all kinds of risk and ill feelings, when the cost savings is insignificant or non-existant?
I don't know if this is possible or not. A few years ago I had a friend tell me this. He said a hacker who has the right codes can hack into a computer even when the power is off not disconnected from the power cord just turned off. He said that they connect through the modem and turn the computer on steal what information their after and shut the computer down. I never hear anyone else tell me this little tidbit but I suppose it's possible. Who knows. Ever since he told me that I usually unplug the cable modem cord. Now if this is a true statement dsl, cable, and wireless access might be just as easy to hack.
four4me,
For regular PCs, that's really not possible, because modern modems rely on your computer's CPU and memory to do anything. If the power's off, there will be no problems.
Even if they could get in somehow, the lack of power would make the hard drive and memory inaccessible, so they could see or do nothing.
You don't need to unplug your modem anymore.
The only exception I know of is that some servers have a special card inside them that is connected to the network, and allows someone to logon to the card, even when the server is turned off. This allows them to turn the server on remotely, as well as monitor its temperature and if it's been tampered with. The card still does not give access to the hard drive or memory, becuase those things require power.
can't believe todd you started this petition balls have no patterns
or bais were as the computer does produce patterns..like here in calif
3 and 1 are sticking together..also 0 and 7 this is heavy in our!! favor
or course the pick 5 and 6 games are 570,000 to 41 million in one
odds ..we'll never going to hit those games..but are daily games
we're some of us make good money are going to lose!!!!when you
bring back complete random drawings...Is this lottery games just
a hobby for you????if you were playing seriously you would see the
bais in computer games are to the players advantage.....I hope
you rethink this stupid move....
good luck chris
What a nice thought. ("stupid move")
I guess you're not going to sign the petition.
time to do what i do best...ARGUING!
don't think that the lotteries cannot see what numbers players are playing most often, and don't think that a person cannot control the random number generator.
Doc
The lottery acts as a broker,they get a set amount of money
from every dollar bet.Calif takes not more than 16 percent if you look
at section 8880.4.Doesn't matter if there is 1 or 1000 winners to them
they still get there cut and thats all.there's sections that state they can't
use the money for anything else but education and expenses.So what good is it for them
to know what numbers people are playing or not.They have 3 STAND ALONE
computers not hooked up to any data lines in a safe. Under high security,which
they choose one a day for the draw.There are plenty of people to watch the
draw to keep everybody honest..You can go there and watch live just call
ahead of time.Now for the don't think someone can control the random
drawing...Who knows there's fraud everywhere you look in some form
or another,But I think the states do there best keeping them honest,the computers aren't just laying around for anybody to get at.and with not
being hookup to any data line,It would have to be a inside job and
most people can't keep a secret so they would get caught..I have been
playing the lotteries since 1984 and have only heard of one case of fraud
back east were they drilled holes in the ping pong balls..Heard the director
of the lottery and people doing the drilling were arrested.I agree with todd
that the balls are more random then the computer,But you want that edge
of bais and trends that computer programs produce.If you want balls
back just buy quick picks,throw out your computer programs, methods and
what ever quit trying to handicap and check your tickets every once in awhile
see if you were LUCKY that day.
good luck chris
Even if an RNG is used in a totally honest game, the mere fact that the machine can be compromised in so many different, undetectable and unauditable ways is unacceptable.
The Hoosier Lottery, according to their CPA/CISA, downloaded their "RNG" from Lottery.com. Our Lottery Director, John Ross, told one of our state representatives that their own programmers wrote the code. One of them is obviously lying but, either way, how can we play with any degree of confidence, knowing that only one of them is lying?
Games like Quick Draw would have to be eliminated, or the lottery would have to constantly reload the ball machine.
hello jim695
If you know this from fact not he said she said.I see your point
on the big ticket games with millions in the pot I don't have a problem
with ball only.At 41 million to 1 odds am not going to win anyway,I have
been playing the same set of pick 6 numbers for almost 20 years..if they come
they come..I am more concerned with the smaller games pick 5 and 3
jackpot are smaller and less likely to be comprised.I have been working
on this method for 6 years now and it only works since they switched
to the rng.It picks up on the trends and bais's the only problem is finding
the right filter to reduce the pot lower then 50 which am getting closer
good luck on finding the truth on your rng origins
chris
Helloo cash only
Am leaving for new york saturday,Where's the best pizza
in manhattan??
Thanks
chris
paintbrush,
Systematic corruption of even "smaller" prize games like Pick 3 can result in millions of dollars (collectively) being taken from player's pockets in order to go to the government. Jim has some great empirical evidence of this from Indiana.
Are the balls directed by computer NOW????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Those strange coincidental numbers that make you go "Hmmmmm...." may not be so coincidental.....
Food for thought...
Doc
&
I will sign the petition, and continue to play till the lottery goes to computers then I will bow out of the game. Regardless of the arguments, my opinion is that you can't call it a "random lottery game", when it is a played with a "programmable computer". and as far as hacking goes, even the military and the government have had problems with there "hack proof" security systems in the past......and I dont see the lottery spending more money on securing the devices than them....
I'VE BEEN AN AVID LOTTERY PLAYER FOR MANY YEARS, AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANY STATE RUN LOTTERY WOULD WANT TO COMPRIMIZE THEIR OWN INTEGRITY AS WELL AS RUNNING THE RISK OF LOSING REVENUE FROM THEIR OWN PLAYERS, FOR THE SAKE OF CUTTING COST!!!! I GUESS NO ONE HAS ENOUGH INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO STAND UP AND SAY "WHATS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE "NOT ONLY ARE THEY RISKING BEING HACKED INTO, BUT THEY'RE RISKING CUTTING STATE RUN PROGRAMS, WHICH ARE PROBABLY FUNDED IN PART BY THE LOTTERY! DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT WHEN YOU GIVE A LITTLE, YOU GET A LOT BACK IN RETURN, OR HAS STUPIDITY OVERRULED INTELLIGENCE. IT'S TIME FOR EVERY LOTTERY PLAYER TO STAND UP AND BE HEARD, BEFORE IGNORANCE RUNS RAMPID, AND PEOPLE GO BACK TO PLAYING THE NUMBERS WITH A BOOKIE. STATES WITH COMPUTORIZED GAMES SHOULD WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!!! MADDOG10 N.J.
If only lottery players made such a fuss over annuity-only prizes.
We have Cash Option in Texas
Don't forget the Megaplier petition too! www.megaplier.com
Hello Todd
I don't know they say lottery ball games are rigged, the computerized draws are rigged.
I think I favor the computer draws even if they may be manipulated I'm playing less!!
Thanks for the great things you are doing with The Lottery Post !!!
Lee
Interesting opinion.