Tenn. Lottery players complaining over switch from numbered balls

Aug 8, 2007, 3:44 pm (50 comments)

Tennessee Lottery

Thanks to the Tennessee Lottery's unilateral decision to abandon traditional lottery drawings using numbered balls to pick the winning numbers on television, many players have decided to stop playing.

The Tennessee Lottery now has computers generate random numbers instead of the player-preferred televised drawings.

Lottery officials say the new system is as secure as the old one. Many players don't like the change, though.

"I don't trust the computerized drawings," said Nashville resident Richard Brymer, 51. "Possibly someone could do something to compromise the computerized drawings.

Brymer said he quit playing state lottery games when he found out about the lottery commission's decision to switch to computerized drawings. He continues playing Powerball because it still uses live drawings.

"I'd rather see the drawings live because of the excitement of the live drawings," he said.

The lottery began using computers to generate random numbers on July 28 for all of its lottery games, including Cash 3, Cash 4 and Lotto 5.

Lottery spokeswoman Kym Gerlock said the lottery changed the drawings to keep up with changing technology and industry trends. Twelve other state lotteries use computerized drawings, she said.

Gerlock says the lottery has received some complaints about the new system, though lottery officials hope players will eventually accept the new technology.

She said two computers at the lottery's headquarters act as random number generators, and the computers are videotaped and overseen by security.

"The security and integrity of our games is of utmost importance," she said. "There's no reason to doubt these drawings or question the integrity of how we do the drawings."

AP

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KyMystikal's avatarKyMystikal

More people need to boycott the lottery. I also don't see what taping a computer picking the numbers is really doing???? I'm like Richard, I only play Powerball in TN because it is live and no tax in TN.

tnlotto1's avatartnlotto1

word is finally getting around this state so the players can wake up and realize whats happening and ask the lottery to change back to true drawings.

qutgnt

I love how a having a tv show and having balls is such a drag on the lotteries profits. Poor Lottery with its 50% payouts and the tax it keeps on the winnings.

DoubleDown

"There's no reason to doubt these drawings or question the integrity of how we do the drawings."

 

She should have added : " And anyone that questions us can just kiss our you know whats..."

Bradly_60's avatarBradly_60

I know everyone doesn't like computerized drawings...well it seems that way anyway.

But one thought, balls can just as easily be manipulated as a computer.  Different weights, different sizes, doesn't anyone remember the PA story of the 80's I believe.  I do think there is way to much emphasis on this non-computerized drawing kick. 

Someone should do a statistical analysis on drawings that are made by computers and ones that are done with balls.  I bet there won't be a difference and if there is then I would be a believer against computer drawings as well.

Brad 

Todd's avatarTodd

Quote: Originally posted by Bradly_60 on Aug 8, 2007

I know everyone doesn't like computerized drawings...well it seems that way anyway.

But one thought, balls can just as easily be manipulated as a computer.  Different weights, different sizes, doesn't anyone remember the PA story of the 80's I believe.  I do think there is way to much emphasis on this non-computerized drawing kick. 

Someone should do a statistical analysis on drawings that are made by computers and ones that are done with balls.  I bet there won't be a difference and if there is then I would be a believer against computer drawings as well.

Brad 

No.  Traditional drawings cannot be just as easily -- or as thoroughly -- manipulated as computerized drawings can.

If you read my postings (or a dozen other peoples') on this subject over the past month you would understand.

You can't SEE what is happening in a computer.  There are infinite more ways that a computer could screw up the drawing.

Let's take, for example, a drawing screw-up.  Everyone has seen a YouTube or Google video of lottery balls falling all over the floor when a drawing gets screwed up.   The lottery folks get red-faced in embarrassment, and the drawing needs to be reset.  But at least everyone can clearly see that an error has happened, and people are forgiving of these things, because it's only natural that things occasionally break.

However, computers are a different story.  How exactly can anyone even SEE that the drawing was screwed up, when it all takes place in a computer?  The fact is that nobody can see it, and it is well-documented here on Lottery Post how buggy drawings have gone on for MONTHS before anyone noticed.  And even then it was caught by a PLAYER, not by the lottery.

Fans of the lottery -- people who enjoy playing the games every day -- don't want computerized drawings.  Period.  They want real lottery drawings.

Rick G's avatarRick G

Quote: Originally posted by Todd on Aug 8, 2007

No.  Traditional drawings cannot be just as easily -- or as thoroughly -- manipulated as computerized drawings can.

If you read my postings (or a dozen other peoples') on this subject over the past month you would understand.

You can't SEE what is happening in a computer.  There are infinite more ways that a computer could screw up the drawing.

Let's take, for example, a drawing screw-up.  Everyone has seen a YouTube or Google video of lottery balls falling all over the floor when a drawing gets screwed up.   The lottery folks get red-faced in embarrassment, and the drawing needs to be reset.  But at least everyone can clearly see that an error has happened, and people are forgiving of these things, because it's only natural that things occasionally break.

However, computers are a different story.  How exactly can anyone even SEE that the drawing was screwed up, when it all takes place in a computer?  The fact is that nobody can see it, and it is well-documented here on Lottery Post how buggy drawings have gone on for MONTHS before anyone noticed.  And even then it was caught by a PLAYER, not by the lottery.

Fans of the lottery -- people who enjoy playing the games every day -- don't want computerized drawings.  Period.  They want real lottery drawings.

A-Men!

Kudos to the TN players for boycotting the drawings.  The only way they'll listen is when it affects profits.

Don't give in, don't buy.

Uncle Jim

BOYCOTT!  BOYCOTT!  BOYCOTT!

What's most amazing to me is how the Lottery's in general don't care what their players want or don't want.  They hope that after the initial flood of bad opinion people will come to accept their decision to go RNG.

I think you guys and gals in Tennessee should mount a serious grass roots campaign against the RNG and adopt Rick G's slogan until they give in:

Dont' give in, don't buy!

Jim 

jarasan's avatarjarasan

I have another acronym for RNG "Really Not a Game".

 

 Burn baby burn.

MADDOG10's avatarMADDOG10

AMEN Tennessee, keep the presure on DO NOT buy lottery tickets. It's hitting them where it hurts the most, their pockets - not yours.

Kudos to all of you..............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  KEEP BOYCOTTING.

What difference doe's it make if you videotape a computerized drawing, it can still be fixed before the taping. Don't fall for their line of crap...!

DoubleDown

RNG = Really No Good

LOTTOMIKE's avatarLOTTOMIKE

my girlfriend who knows nothing period about the lottery asked me if i saw the new tennessee lottery drawings on the new station they moved the draws to.i asked why and she said the drawing looked really 'fake'.now thats bad coming from someone who knows nothing about the lottery.tennessee is really screwing up.

GASMETERGUY

Quote: Originally posted by Bradly_60 on Aug 8, 2007

I know everyone doesn't like computerized drawings...well it seems that way anyway.

But one thought, balls can just as easily be manipulated as a computer.  Different weights, different sizes, doesn't anyone remember the PA story of the 80's I believe.  I do think there is way to much emphasis on this non-computerized drawing kick. 

Someone should do a statistical analysis on drawings that are made by computers and ones that are done with balls.  I bet there won't be a difference and if there is then I would be a believer against computer drawings as well.

Brad 

Bradly

     I accept as a fact that there exists a big difference between ball drawn and computer picked.

     I have been tracking several states which have either one or the other and I can see from my data, my patterns, that RNG is much more random than ball drawn.  While my "proof" will not measure up to the "smoking gun" concept, what I see has me completely convinced a difference exists. 

     I am not attempting to convince anyone else, tho.  What anyone chooses to believe is their business.  I just hate the fact I have to go back to day one with the Tennessee Lotto.  If Kentucky had a P5 game, I would play up there for while.  Instead, I am switching to Powerball.

spy153's avatarspy153

Quote: Originally posted by jarasan on Aug 8, 2007

I have another acronym for RNG "Really Not a Game".

 

 Burn baby burn.

Green laugh

Todd's avatarTodd

Quote: Originally posted by GASMETERGUY on Aug 9, 2007

Bradly

     I accept as a fact that there exists a big difference between ball drawn and computer picked.

     I have been tracking several states which have either one or the other and I can see from my data, my patterns, that RNG is much more random than ball drawn.  While my "proof" will not measure up to the "smoking gun" concept, what I see has me completely convinced a difference exists. 

     I am not attempting to convince anyone else, tho.  What anyone chooses to believe is their business.  I just hate the fact I have to go back to day one with the Tennessee Lotto.  If Kentucky had a P5 game, I would play up there for while.  Instead, I am switching to Powerball.

Excellent post.

How about looking at the differences from a different angle though?

Perhaps it is the ball drawings that are more random, with natural patterns that are the beauty of randomness in nature.  Perhaps it is the computer that is falsely eliminating any type of natural patterns.  Or for very poor RNGs, it has a bad sequence of numbers.

That's right, low-end RNGs, which have been used at some state lotteries (that's a fact), consist of a finite number of number sequences that appear to be random, but as you now know, are not really random.

ToadSchmode's avatarToadSchmode

Since Tenn went "RNG" (2 weeks ago)  there has been "NO DOUBLES" drawn in any of the Pick 3 or pick 4 draws. This is random????  It's very rare for a pick 4 game to go even 5 days without a double in it. Wonder how long it'll take'em to realize it?

tnlotto1's avatartnlotto1

Quote: Originally posted by ToadSchmode on Aug 11, 2007

Since Tenn went "RNG" (2 weeks ago)  there has been "NO DOUBLES" drawn in any of the Pick 3 or pick 4 draws. This is random????  It's very rare for a pick 4 game to go even 5 days without a double in it. Wonder how long it'll take'em to realize it?

actually someone else told me that and they were trying to win it before the lottery realized it and changed it so doubles will start showing up. when they read your post they will find a way to get the computer to change it up and toss in some doubles so no one will have a chance to predict it and win.

ToadSchmode's avatarToadSchmode

Quote: Originally posted by tnlotto1 on Aug 11, 2007

actually someone else told me that and they were trying to win it before the lottery realized it and changed it so doubles will start showing up. when they read your post they will find a way to get the computer to change it up and toss in some doubles so no one will have a chance to predict it and win.

 "when they read your post they will find a way to get the computer to change it up"   if you really believe what you said, that alone should be enough to tell you and your someone else, it's not random, and is, human controlled or influenced. This just adds to the reasons not to play RNG draws.  But if you or your someone else must play, don't try to push blame on a "post" as to why you lose. Your playing a stacked game.

KyMystikal's avatarKyMystikal

Quote: Originally posted by ToadSchmode on Aug 12, 2007

 "when they read your post they will find a way to get the computer to change it up"   if you really believe what you said, that alone should be enough to tell you and your someone else, it's not random, and is, human controlled or influenced. This just adds to the reasons not to play RNG draws.  But if you or your someone else must play, don't try to push blame on a "post" as to why you lose. Your playing a stacked game.

doesn't look like they read the posts here. I have sent them a email asking if they were having a computer problem and if that was the reason no double has fell in any draw since they went to RNG.

KyMystikal's avatarKyMystikal

Quote: Originally posted by KyMystikal on Aug 15, 2007

doesn't look like they read the posts here. I have sent them a email asking if they were having a computer problem and if that was the reason no double has fell in any draw since they went to RNG.

By the way, here is a copy of the email I sent them. I hope I get a reply since I never got a reply back when they first announced that they were changing the lottery format. If I get a reply I will post it.

 

 

I would like to know if there is a problem with the computer that draws the lottery numbers? Every since you(Tennessee Lottery) have switched the way the numbers are chosen there hasn't been a double digit come out in ANY draw. I know that the drawings are supposed to be random but it is highly unlikely that no double would fall in any draw in 18 days.

bond10

What other states have computerized drawings.

onenumber's avataronenumber

If you click on RESULTS -- then State Lottery Report Card you will see the states with computerized drawings.

tnlotto1's avatartnlotto1

Quote: Originally posted by ToadSchmode on Aug 12, 2007

 "when they read your post they will find a way to get the computer to change it up"   if you really believe what you said, that alone should be enough to tell you and your someone else, it's not random, and is, human controlled or influenced. This just adds to the reasons not to play RNG draws.  But if you or your someone else must play, don't try to push blame on a "post" as to why you lose. Your playing a stacked game.

i wasnt blaming your post for anyone losing the lottery toadschmode i was agreeing with you that rng is not random and i thought they would show how fixed it is by having some doubles suddenly drop out of nowhere but i guess they still havent fallen. if you go back over my other posts from the past you will see im against rng and i never wanted tennessee to get it.

Stack47

Quote: Originally posted by KyMystikal on Aug 15, 2007

By the way, here is a copy of the email I sent them. I hope I get a reply since I never got a reply back when they first announced that they were changing the lottery format. If I get a reply I will post it.

 

 

I would like to know if there is a problem with the computer that draws the lottery numbers? Every since you(Tennessee Lottery) have switched the way the numbers are chosen there hasn't been a double digit come out in ANY draw. I know that the drawings are supposed to be random but it is highly unlikely that no double would fall in any draw in 18 days.

"it is highly unlikely that no double would fall in any draw in 18 days."

Aw so that's what they meant about "an exciting new way to draw". Has anybody in Tennessee wrote a letter to the editor of a newspaper explaining the integrity of the draws might be questioned because player can't see the live mechanics of their draw?

After 18 draws without a double, a follow-up "I told you so" letter to the editor could have been written. And when the doubles start showing a "I rest my case" letter could be sent.

States have always used RNGs to distribute QPs but that has no affect on numbers being drawn from a keno/bingo ball style of machine. All the state lotteries know exactly what's being bet on any combination and that should be reason enough to have live ball machine drawings. It's not about having to see the live draw everyday, just knowing draw is above reproach.

We're always reading or hearing about players being underpaid by clerks or how certain areas of some states have more jackpot winners than others. Why a state lottery would want to switch to a drawing style that invites more questions about cheating is beyond me.

BaristaExpress's avatarBaristaExpress

Hey people, wake-up and smell the MONEY! Yes, I said Money! The states that have RNG drawings are able to keep more of the money from all the suckers that play their RNG games! Yes, I said suckers. Face it people, if you have less winners in the state run RNG games, the state KEEPS more of the money bet in those games! RNG lottery machines were invented for the sole purpose of generating more revenue for the state run lotteries!

If at all possible those of you who used to play the pick3 and pick4 ball drawn games and won on some what of a regular cycle, I'm glad for you. But now your state went to a RNG machine, stop playing the pick3 and 4 games and tell everyone you know not to play and watch the state see it's revenue decline. No one likes to play a game that doesn't pay back the player to some degree (some wins are better than no wins for long stretches).

KyMystikal's avatarKyMystikal

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on Aug 15, 2007

"it is highly unlikely that no double would fall in any draw in 18 days."

Aw so that's what they meant about "an exciting new way to draw". Has anybody in Tennessee wrote a letter to the editor of a newspaper explaining the integrity of the draws might be questioned because player can't see the live mechanics of their draw?

After 18 draws without a double, a follow-up "I told you so" letter to the editor could have been written. And when the doubles start showing a "I rest my case" letter could be sent.

States have always used RNGs to distribute QPs but that has no affect on numbers being drawn from a keno/bingo ball style of machine. All the state lotteries know exactly what's being bet on any combination and that should be reason enough to have live ball machine drawings. It's not about having to see the live draw everyday, just knowing draw is above reproach.

We're always reading or hearing about players being underpaid by clerks or how certain areas of some states have more jackpot winners than others. Why a state lottery would want to switch to a drawing style that invites more questions about cheating is beyond me.

Here is the TN lottery's response to my email.

 

Thank you for playing the Tennessee Lottery and for your comments.
The security and integrity of our games is of utmost importance and this greatly impacted our decision to go to these type drawings. The Tennessee Lottery goes to extreme measures to protect the integrity of its games in order to maximize dollars for education in the state.
For any one drawing, each of the available combinations of numbers has the same likelihood of being selected. Additionally, numbers selected in any one drawing has no relationship to a future or past drawing, since each drawing is a unique, separate and distinct occurrence.
We have had some other inquiries about the lack of double digit winning numbers, so we had our security staff run several random test draws, and double digits were drawn.

Stack47

Quote: Originally posted by KyMystikal on Aug 16, 2007

Here is the TN lottery's response to my email.

 

Thank you for playing the Tennessee Lottery and for your comments.
The security and integrity of our games is of utmost importance and this greatly impacted our decision to go to these type drawings. The Tennessee Lottery goes to extreme measures to protect the integrity of its games in order to maximize dollars for education in the state.
For any one drawing, each of the available combinations of numbers has the same likelihood of being selected. Additionally, numbers selected in any one drawing has no relationship to a future or past drawing, since each drawing is a unique, separate and distinct occurrence.
We have had some other inquiries about the lack of double digit winning numbers, so we had our security staff run several random test draws, and double digits were drawn.

"The security and integrity of our games is of utmost importance and this greatly impacted our decision to go to these type drawings."

The best way of insuring integrity is to have a live draw the players can see. They are asking the players to rely on the integrity of an unknown computer programmer.

"The Tennessee Lottery goes to extreme measures to protect the integrity of its games in order to maximize dollars for education in the state. "

It's not the integrity of the games that is in question; it's the integrity of the way the numbers are drawn. Their goal is to maximize dollars and they don't want the players to see the drawings. That sounds more like an extreme measure to throw integrity out the window.

"We have had some other inquiries about the lack of double digit winning numbers, so we had our security staff run several random test draws, and double digits were drawn."

They said "security and integrity of our games is of the utmost importance" yet they waited until players questioned the integrity before their security staff got involved. They could have had the janitor or anybody run test draws and get the same results.

They should put "play at own risk" on each lottery terminal.

BaristaExpress's avatarBaristaExpress

The Tennessee Lottery goes to extreme measures to protect the integrity of its games in order to maximize dollars for education in the state.

There you have it in a nut shell! Less winners, less to payout, More for the State!

Looks like the Almighty buck wins hands down! But really think about it, does the money really go to the Education Fund or is it being diverted to some other program or someones pocket? Most states cover education through property taxes and a few other taxes, but has the property taxes in Tenn gone down any or have they gone up ever so slightly as not to set of any bells or whistles? And if the lowering of the property taxes hasn't happen, I think the people of Tenn need to call for an audit of the state education fund and the lottery to find out where the money has really gone too!

Just6ntlc

I just don't like games being computerized.

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