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Hoosier Lottery

Topic closed. 66 replies. Last post 7 years ago by LOTTOMIKE.

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LosingJeff's avatar - flower
Greenfield
United States
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February 2, 2004
557 Posts
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Posted: July 29, 2007, 3:21 am - IP Logged

Well, Looks like noboby won the Hoosier Lottery again!  It just keeps growing. I think they had alot of players cause there were 160,000 people who won free tickets.  I believe there were 0 straight winners on pick 3 midday and 3 straight winners on pic 3 eve. No straight winners on pic 4 midday and evening.  Wonder how much higher it will go?

" FUN IS BAD " ----causes Bankruptcy

    LOTTOMIKE's avatar - cash money.jpg
    Tennessee
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    Posted: July 29, 2007, 8:05 am - IP Logged

    hey jeff we just completed our first day as a computerized failure here in tennessee.you don't mind if i change my name to losingmike do ya?  lol

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      Indiana
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      December 29, 2005
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      Posted: July 29, 2007, 8:51 am - IP Logged

      Hey Jeff,

      The Hoosier Lottery did indeed roll over for the 84th consecutive time!  Since the next draw will be in August we we are now in the 10th consecutive month without a jackpot winner.

      As for the number of free tickets given out...this is about right for the current run.  I have followed this statistic for a couple if years now and traditionaly they give out more free tickets on Saturday than they do on Wednesday.  Presumably this is because they sell more tickets for a Saturday draw.  Last Saturday they gave out more than 162,000 free tickets compared to Wednesday's total of more than 138,000. 

      Usually the numbers are a bit lower.  In the past with lower jackpots the average has been about 240,000 free tickets a week on 2 draws.  (About 115,000 on Wednesday and about 125,000 on Saturday.)  But recently during this amazing run the average has been about 300,000  free tickets a week. So even without sales figures we can be reasonably assured that their sales are up during this mind boggling 10 month run.

      This is yet another of those mind numbing statistics that you have to consider when looking at this amazing 10 month run.  In addition to however many tickets they sell for a draw they give away anywhere between 125,000 to 160,000 free quickpicks on every draw.  And still no winner!

      So this amazing run will continue.  Ten months...2 draws a week...84 consecutive draws and no Hoosier Lottery jackpot winner.  Stay tuned!

      Jim


      Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

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        NY
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        October 16, 2005
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        Posted: July 30, 2007, 1:28 am - IP Logged

        What's the surprise? If they gave out 160,000 prizes with odds of 11 in 7.31 it's safe bet that they only sold about 1,170,000 tickets. Even if none of the combinations were repeated there would be better than a 90% chance that nobody would win. A rollover is what should be expected.

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          Indiana
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          December 29, 2005
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          Posted: July 30, 2007, 10:26 am - IP Logged

          Hey Floyd,

          First let me say that as a rule I admire your posts.  They are generally well thought out...well reasoned and well written.  However, when it comes to the doings of the Hoosier Lottery reason (IMHO) does not apply.

          Your point is well taken.  I have been estimating the Hoosier Lottery's sales per draw as well and my figures are very close to yours.  During this run I estimate that they are selling approximately 950,000 tickets per mid week drawing and about 1,200,000 for a weekend draw.  So even if you add in the free tickets you are well below the 1 in 12,000,000 odds.

          Having said that we are assuming the odds and prize information posted by the Hoosier Lottery are correct.  That may or may not be an accurate assumption as the Hoosier Lottery has mistated odds and prizes before.  But in a straight 6/48 game the correct odds can be calculated fairly easily.  So given that the prize information is correct we can assume the sales figures are reasonably accurate.

          But the main problem I have is that even if you apply this type of logic to other lotteries...including Powerball...you still don't see a roll over pattern like this.  The odds with Powerball are over 145,000,000 to 1.  Do we see 145,000,000 tickets sold before we have a winner?  Hardly.  

          Now much of this paranoia might be able to be put to rest if the Hoosier Lottery published their sales figures.  But they will not.  I think part of the reason is they don't want anyone to know how much of a rip-off the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game has become.  The Hoosier Lottery's Lotto Jackpot only goes up $500,000 annuity value per draw on the 3rd draw.  It has a cash value of exactly 40%.  That equals $200,000.  In other words they only need to put $200,000 in cash into the jackpot.

          Calculating the approximate payout per draw you can see that they only payout somewhere around $160,000 in prizes on a Saturday daw.  Wednesday's payout is corresponding less.  Now if you're taking in $1,200,000 per draw...putting $200,000 aside to cover the jackpot and paying out $160,000 you are left with about $840,000 in pure profit per draw!

          Once again Wednesday's numbers are less but if you use roughly the same formula and assume they sell about  $2,150,000 tickets a week...then put $400,000 away for the jackpot and payout another $300,000 in prizes you can see that during this run the Hoosier Lottery is making approximately $1,350,000 a week in pure profit!

          OK..states are in the Lottery business to make money.  That's a given and we all accept that.  But given this information it's very easy to see why it is not in the Hoosier Lottery's best interest to have a Lotto jackpot winner.  Let's face it...bigger jackpots sell more tickets and when the jackpot goes back to $1,000,000 annuity value ($400,000 cash) and starts inching up on the 3rd draw by $500,000 annuity ($200,000) cash, sales will go down

          But to be fair motive in and of itself does not mean anything.  However, when you start factoring in all the other nonsense the Hoosier Lottery is famous for...a history of secracy...a history of scandal...rigged games in the past...and a non televised RNG drawing...you gotta start wondering about 84 consecutive draws without a winner.

          Taken in total this information is IMHO damning but not conclusive.  But I've been doing some other research and I can't find any instance anywhere of a straight 6/48 game that has gone 84 draws without a winner.  Hell I can't even see where Powerball or Mega Millions..with much higher odds...and granted much higher sales figures have gone 84 draws without a winner.

          Now back to your original point...after factoring in the number of tickets sold during this run...and adding back in another roughly 1,000,000 quicks picks given away during this run...I still think the odds of this jackpot rolling over 84 times is just a bit of a stretch.

          But I could be wrong.  Maybe it is an honest draw and given the number of tickets sold versus the odds of winning 84 consecutive roll overs is just a natural result.  If that's the case...this thing could theoritically go on for years.

          Jim       


          Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

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            NY
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            Posted: July 30, 2007, 11:07 am - IP Logged

            Thanks, Jim.  I'll admit to playing Devil's advocate a bit on this one. I'm not sure where you're getting the info on the free tickets, but it sounds like you're adding them to the number of tickets "sold", which I'm not doing. I'm estimating ticket sales with the odds and the number of winners at the lowest level, which accounts for the number of free tickets. For my purpose the free tickest were sold, because htye're among the tickets that are in play, and that determines how many winners there are.

            The one thing I don't know is how many tickets were sold during the early drawings when the jackpot was much smaller. If they're "only" selling 1.2 million tickets for a jackpot of $40 million I'd be very surprised if htey sold anywhere near that many when it was only a few million. That means I don't know what the odds of somebody winning would have been for any of the early drawings, but I'm assuming it was  substantially less than it is now. A run of 84  drawings with no winner is definitely unusual, but it's well within the bounds of probability. That it had rolled 10, 20, or 50 times already didn't make it any more likely that it would be won the next time, other than through increased ticket sales.

            As far as PB,  it's a given that, on average,  they'll sell 145 million tickets for every winner. Sometimes there's a winner (or two or three) with far fewer tickets sold, and often they'll sell 200 or 300 million before having a winner. For the PB record of 365 million the cash  payout was about $175 million. With roughly 30 cents of each ticket going to the jackpot that means they sold about 580 million tickets before getting a winner.

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              Indiana
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              December 29, 2005
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              Posted: July 30, 2007, 3:55 pm - IP Logged

              Floyd,

              <>Our numbers are a bit different.  Usually I look at the winners at all prize levels and then take the average and round up or down a bit to make it easy.  But again your point is well taken and my actual "sales" numbers may be a bit high.

              As for the reality of the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto sales numbers...much has been made by me and a few others that they do not publish their sales figures.  The only information available to the public (that I'm aware of) is in their annual report.  There is a link on the website to the last one...Fiscal Year 2006 and for the Lotto game it shows a net for the year at $65,600,000.  (I'm not quite sure why they call it  net instead of gross.)  

              With 2 draws a week that means an average draw sales of just over $630,000.  Given those sales figures and with odds of 1 in 12 million, maybe it isn't so surprising that it has rolled over 84 times (42 weeks).  If the average held true then it would take 20 draws and 10 weeks just to sell 12 million tickets.  

              <> I understand your point about past roll overs and increased ticket sales...but this (soon to be 10 month roll) strikes me as more than a bit unsual.

              <>Jim 


              Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
                mid-Ohio
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                Posted: July 30, 2007, 4:04 pm - IP Logged

                Hoosier Lottery News release 11/17/2006

                2006 has been an incredible year for Hoosier Lotto players around the state.  Most recently, a representative for the 2006 Stewardship Revocable Trust claimed an $11 million jackpot from the September 16th Hoosier Lotto drawing. That winning ticket was purchased in Bloomington.  Prior to that, a group of nine co-workers at the Delphi Plant in Anderson won a $9 million Hoosier Lotto jackpot on July 1. In April, two life-long friends from Louisville, KY, split an $8 million jackpot won on a ticket purchased in New Albany.  A representative from the Boulon Revocable Trust claimed a $6.5 million Hoosier Lotto jackpot in March.  That winning ticket was purchased in Indianapolis.  The year kicked off in grand fashion when a Valparaiso-native claimed a $1 million jackpot just one drawing after a Logansport-area family won a $25.5 million Hoosier Lotto jackpot from the January 19th drawing.

                "Help is on the way". When I read how often Hoosier Lotto was won during 2006, it's hard for me to believe that out of state players coming to Indiana for PowerBall tickets aren't buying some Hoosier Lotto tickets too with a jackpot that size.  I know I would if I was still driving to Indiana for PB tickets.  Chances are good your next winner will be from out of state.

                Now that gas prices are going down and PB jackpot is climbing, if PB gets close to $200M I may start traveling to Indiana for PB tickets again and if Hoosier Lotto is still rolling, I'll be buying tickets for both.

                * you don't need more tickets, just the right ticket * 
                * your best chance at winning a lottery jackpot is to buy a ticket * 
                     Wink 

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                  Indiana
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                  Posted: July 31, 2007, 9:19 am - IP Logged

                  A lot has been made about the Hooseir Lottery's horrible prize payouts so here's one more little thing some of you may find interesting:

                  In the last draw the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game paid out a grand total of $144,276 to all winners at all prize levels.

                  In the last draw players of the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game also won a total of 168,000 free tickets.

                  That's right...the Hoosier Lottery gave away more free tickets than they paid out in total prizes to all winners at all levels.

                  Jim 


                  Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                    Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
                    Indiana
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                    January 7, 2007
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                    Posted: July 31, 2007, 4:34 pm - IP Logged

                    A lot has been made about the Hooseir Lottery's horrible prize payouts so here's one more little thing some of you may find interesting:

                    In the last draw the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game paid out a grand total of $144,276 to all winners at all prize levels.

                    In the last draw players of the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game also won a total of 168,000 free tickets.

                    That's right...the Hoosier Lottery gave away more free tickets than they paid out in total prizes to all winners at all levels.

                    Jim 

                    "That's right...the Hoosier Lottery gave away more free tickets than they paid out in total prizes to all winners at all levels."

                    That's not a very good argument because a "free ticket"(2/6) IS A PRIZE. Look at the odds:

                    Match 6 OF 6 JACKPOT1:12,271,512
                    Match 5 OF 6Approximately $1,000 (Pari-Mutuel)1:48,696
                    Match 4 OF 6Approximately $40 (Pari-Mutuel)1:950.18
                    Match 3 OF 6$31:53.45
                    Match 2 OF 6Free Quick Pick1:7.31

                    Look at how easy it is to WIN a free ticket.

                    Now look at the payouts for 7/25/07:

                    6/6       
                    0
                    $0.00
                     
                    5/6       
                    23
                    $1,071.00
                     
                    4/6       
                    1,228
                    $42.00
                     
                    3/6       
                    22,689
                    $3.00
                     
                    2/6       
                    168,724
                    0 1 Free QP Ticket

                    It makes sense that free ticket PRIZES are a lot more easier to win than the cash PRIZES because 2/6 IS EASIER TO GET THAN 3/6, 4/6, 5/6, and 6/6!!! It's math. 99% of the time, the PRIZE that is EASIEST TO WIN is going to have the highest payout count. In this case, it's not cash, it's a free ticket.

                    Gonna win.Big Smile

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                      Indiana
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                      Posted: July 31, 2007, 4:56 pm - IP Logged

                      Guru, I understand exactly what you are saying.  A free ticket is a prize.  But what is it worth?

                      And trust me I am very familar with the odds posted by the Hoosier Lottery on their Lotto game.  The point I'm trying to make is the number of free tickets won exceeds the sum total of all cash prizes paid out at all levels. 

                      What that means in real life is...the actual CASH payouts are horrible.  

                      Jim 


                      Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                        Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
                        Indiana
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                        Posted: July 31, 2007, 5:19 pm - IP Logged

                        Guru, I understand exactly what you are saying.  A free ticket is a prize.  But what is it worth?

                        And trust me I am very familar with the odds posted by the Hoosier Lottery on their Lotto game.  The point I'm trying to make is the number of free tickets won exceeds the sum total of all cash prizes paid out at all levels. 

                        What that means in real life is...the actual CASH payouts are horrible.  

                        Jim 

                        I disagree. So what if it adds up to more than the sum total of all the other prizes. There's nothing wrong with that because 2/6 is VERY, VERY EASY to get. Lets look at odds for 2/6 and 3/6:

                        Match 3 OF 6$31:53.45
                        Match 2 OF 6Free Quick Pick1:7.31

                        So, mathematically, 2/6 is 7.311 times easier to win. Now lets look at the payouts for the last draw for 2/6 and 3/6:

                        3/6       
                        22689
                        $3.00
                         
                        2/6       
                        168724
                        0 1 Free QP Ticket

                        Now lets take 168,724 / 22,689. It comes to 7.436.

                        So the figures are relatively close to where they should be. 2/6 is won that many times because THAT's HOW EASY IT IS TO GET 2/6.

                        Lets say that the lottery added a 1/6 prize(crazy yes, but lets just use it as an example). If you get 1/6, you get a free peppermint. The 1/6 prize is probably going to be WAY above the sum total of all the other prizes combined. It all comes down to the difficulty of getting x/6 numbers.

                        Gonna win.Big Smile

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                          Indiana
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                          Posted: July 31, 2007, 8:11 pm - IP Logged

                          Guru,

                          Believe me I understand your point.  It is easier to get 2 numbers than it is to get 3.  I don't think anyone here would dispute that.  But I gotta tell you I don't think anyone plays the lottery in hopes of winning Free Quick Picks for the next draw.  People play because they want to win money on that draw.

                          <>Now it may not seem like using the number of Free Quick Picks given out for getting 2 numbers versus the total amount of cash won for getting 3, 4 and 5 numbers is the best yardstick.  But it does strike me as one way to measure what is a horrible cash payout in the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game.

                          <>3 numbers pays a flat $3.00

                          4 numbers pays a paramutual prize (regardless of jackpot size) of approximately $40

                          5 numbers pays a paramutual prize (regardless of jackpot size) of approximately $800

                          <><>Now because ticket sales were presumably higher for a $40 million jackpot, 4 numbers paid $42 and 5 numbers paid over $1000.

                          And of course if anyone ever does win the jackpot and they elect to take cash rather than the annuity they will only receive 40% of $40 million...i.e. $16 million (minus taxes.)

                          I'm sorry to bust your bubble but those payouts STINK.

                          Do I like the idea of winning a free Quick Pick for getting 2 numbers?  Absolutely!  I think it's a great idea and more lotteries should do it.  But it doesn't alter the fact that the payouts on the Hoosier Lottery are pathetic!  And when they give away more Free Quick Picks than grand total actual cash on all prize levels...I think that stinks!

                          Jim 


                          Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                            Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
                            Indiana
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                            Posted: July 31, 2007, 8:45 pm - IP Logged

                            Jim, you keep complaining about only receiving 40% of $40 million. The thing is though, THAT IS YOUR CHOICE!!! If you want the ADVERTISED PRIZE, which is $40 million paid in 30 installments, you will receive THAT PRIZE, $40 million. This same rule applies to PowerBall and Mega Millions. You can't say "I'm only getting 40% of the prize" if you take the cash option because the cash option is exactly that: AN OPTION!!!!! It is a PRESENT DAY VALUE of the advertised ANNUITY jackpot. I wish you people would understand that the jackpot is not just an amount, but also TERMS that go with that amount. In this case, the terms are the amount of time that amount must be paid The jackpot is this: $40.5 million paid over 29 years in 30 installments, BUT if you would like to OPTIONALLY take a present day value of the prize, then you can. After taxes that present day value prize will be a lot less than the advertised ANNUITY prize. It should be OBVIOUS!!!

                            Gonna win.Big Smile

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                              Indiana
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                              Posted: August 1, 2007, 10:14 am - IP Logged

                              Jim, you keep complaining about only receiving 40% of $40 million. The thing is though, THAT IS YOUR CHOICE!!! If you want the ADVERTISED PRIZE, which is $40 million paid in 30 installments, you will receive THAT PRIZE, $40 million. This same rule applies to PowerBall and Mega Millions. You can't say "I'm only getting 40% of the prize" if you take the cash option because the cash option is exactly that: AN OPTION!!!!! It is a PRESENT DAY VALUE of the advertised ANNUITY jackpot. I wish you people would understand that the jackpot is not just an amount, but also TERMS that go with that amount. In this case, the terms are the amount of time that amount must be paid The jackpot is this: $40.5 million paid over 29 years in 30 installments, BUT if you would like to OPTIONALLY take a present day value of the prize, then you can. After taxes that present day value prize will be a lot less than the advertised ANNUITY prize. It should be OBVIOUS!!!

                              Guru, 

                              You've done a great job defending the Hoosier Lottery.  And while your explanation of the "PRESENT DAY CASH VALUE" may apply to Powerball and MegaMillions IT DOESN'T apply to the Hoosier Lottery and I'm going to show you why.

                              First...go to the Hoosier Lottery's website...look at the jackpot value.  The annuity value will be posted but unlike Powerball, there is NO CASH OPTION valueosted anywhere on their site.

                              Next...click on games...click on Lotto and read the entire "official' rules and explanation of the Lotto game.  One thing you WILL NOT find is any mention of a CASH OPTION.  IT DOESN'T EXIST.  the official rules stste only that an annuity is available and the terms of the annuity payment.  Once again there is NO mention of a CASH OPTION...PERIOD.  Not what it is...how to claim it...the time length to claim it or even that it exists at all.

                              The ONLY place you can find any mention of a CASH OPTION on the Hoosier Lottery's website is if you go to their Home Page and click on F.A.Q.  The third question down explains the difference between the annuity value and the CASH Option.  It states clearly (and incorrectly) that the CASH OPTION is between 40% and 50% of the annuity value.  That information is quite simply incorrect.  Whether that is done intentionaly or unintentionaly I don't know.   But the reality is it is incorrect.

                              The CASH VALUE for the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game is a flat 40%.  Contrary to your assertion that it has something to do with PRESENT DAY VALUE it doesn't.  It is an arbitrary amount chosen by former Hoosier Lottery Executive Director Esther Schneider.  

                              By her own admission to me in an e-mail...Schneider's self-appointed mission was to return as much money to the citizens of Indiana as she possibly could.  To that end...she increased the annuity period of the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game from 25 to 30 years WITHOUT ANY JACKPOT VALUE INCREASE.  Five additional years of interest and it all goes to the state.  Period!  Once again nothing to do with rates and market value.

                              Next she changed the CASH VALUE to a flat 40% of the annuity value.  Unlike the past where the jackpot amount was determined by the actual amount of ticlet sales and all excess cash went into the jackpot...Esther changed the CASH VALUE to a flat $200,000 regardless o how many tickets were sold.  Once again NOTHING to do with the annuity or PRESENT DAY CASH VALUE.

                              Finally, Esther decided to eliminate the first roll over.  If nobody wins the first draw...the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto jackpot remains the same and all the money for the ticket sales goes directly to the state.  Only after nobody wins the second draw does the jackpot go up a flat $500,000 annuity (which is the same as before except now it's on 30 years instead of 25) and a flat $200,000 CAH VALUE regardless of ticket sales.

                              So in fact you can see...ticket sales and market rates have absolutely nothing to do with the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto jackpot and therefore, the faliious notion o PRESENT DAY VALUE.  The PRESENT DAY value you speak of is not tied to ticket sales, investment rates or annuity length.  It is a completely and arbitraily chosen figure designed to return more money to the state without an increase in the prize amount and therefore, done at the expense of the players.

                              We here in Indiana are getting ripped off and that is...WHAT SHOULD BE OBVIOUS!

                              Jim 


                              Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx