Poll - RNG, auditors and game fraud

Reply #28

konane — Wed, 26 Jul 2006 23:58:28 GMT

I stand corrected after doing some quick research that rootkits can be detected by some spyware removal software.

Link below is to a free Rootkit Revealer plus discussion about how they can be deployed.

This one in particular caught my eye.

........ Memory-Based Rootkits

Memory-based rootkits are malware that has no persistent code and therefore does not survive a reboot. .....

http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/RootkitRevealer.html

Reply #27

pumpi76 — Wed, 26 Jul 2006 16:13:30 GMT

I think a perfect example of a program that can work and must people not know what's inside the program is a computer virus or worm , even though i don't know if they are classified as programs; I am not a computer expert, nor do i know about virusus and wormns...

But the latest thing i read about a computer virus/worm is that they can get into your computers and make your computer send command to other dead computers or they can simply comand your computer to send tons of spam emails..Don't... [ More ]

Reply #26

KY Floyd — Wed, 26 Jul 2006 06:05:40 GMT

It would be a bit problematic if the auditor had to examine the code for the program before each drawing took place even if it was a fairly small program. All the auditor needs to do is ensure that the machine hasn't been tampered with. Checking the program would be a completely separate step done by somebody with the requisite skills.

Since some people seem to be confused by root kits I'll try to make it as simple as possible. The operating system of your computer has all sorts of programs t... [ More ]

Reply #25

Tenaj — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 20:21:14 GMT

I'm sure some of these hackers create this stuff to sell the products to remove it.

Reply #24

konane — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:46:43 GMT

Rootkits

http://clusty.com/search?tb=firefox-1.1.1 locale=en-US query=rootkits

Have read some articles about them that they're close to impossible to detect unless you specifically know what you're looking for, impossible for virus software or spyware to detect and are being used more and more without someone's knowledge of what they've downloaded.

Reply #23

konane — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:41:27 GMT

Using RNG's you're probably closer to correct than you may imaging.

Finally found the information I read about the mind influencing RNG results that I've mentioned before.... used as an illustration of another subject. Princeton research, no less.

For over 25 years, scientists at Princeton University's Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) Laboratory have demonstrated powerful correlations between human intention and machine behavior. They have shown that unt... [ More ]

Reply #22

four4me — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:04:11 GMT

wow good thing i typed this in an email cause when i went to post it, it disappeared

I know that you know the average person couldn't read one line of code if they weren't programmers themselves. Since most programmers use sophisticated software to write programs. An auditor is there to check every aspect of the game and check the books/accounting of the games. He wouldn't know one way or another if the program was set up to spit out any particular number or numbers unless he to was familiar... [ More ]

Reply #21

KY Floyd — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 18:24:58 GMT

I never said that a programmer can't make a program do exactly what they want, only that they can't keep others from seeing what was done if they chose to look.

Before I spend time on a more thorough answer, let me make sure I understand your position. You seem to be saying that SONY tried really hard to hide some anti-piracy files, two people discoverd those files independently, and that demonstrates that programs can be hidden so that nobody will ever know. Is that right? Perhaps you're al... [ More ]

Reply #20

JAP69 — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:52:33 GMT

The lotteries have artificial brain power waves to draw the number they want.

Unseen brain waves can not be detected by auditors.

Reply #19

four4me — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:28:39 GMT

come on Floyd

In RNG programs a programmer can make whatever numbers he wants to come out on any particular day. he can set the program up in ways no one would have the foggiest idea of what's going on. the program could work in many ways selecting and deselecting numbers that have been bet and drawing whatever number is being bet the least. or drawing a number that would pay out only a small percentage of the take in.

let's put this another way say i wanted the number 328 to come out on... [ More ]

Reply #18

KY Floyd — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:48:27 GMT

Nothing generated by a computer can be monkeyed with . Computers are extremely stupid machines that will only do exactly what they are told to do, and the instructions have to be very explicit. The only way to make the program purposely generate a non-random result is to write instructions to do so.

As far as nobody being the wiser about what was written if the code is changed, you're making an awful lot of assumptions. I certainly wouldn't claim that the lotteries are perfect in their over... [ More ]

Reply #17

justxploring — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:36:05 GMT

LOL. Don't get me started on that one, Chad...I mean Raven.

Reply #16

pumpi76 — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:22:02 GMT

Even thought i said: If the programmer made the RnG so that in draw number 22, the digits 88 will appears and for it to follow a numberic series or mathematical series, that only the programmer will know then there is no way that the auditor will know....if he knows that draw number 10, 24, 61, 112 (numeric series) the number 2 3 will come up, then no one could noticed it..

Even though i said that, It is not efficient, because if they do pre-testing, it will mess up the count (i should ge... [ More ]

Reply #15

Raven62 — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 10:01:08 GMT

Or was that Election Results

Reply #14

justxploring — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 09:33:33 GMT

Reply #13

ryanm — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 04:53:45 GMT

Auditors are supposed to be INDEPENDENT of the entities they're auditing. They work for public accounting firms, not their clients. The auditor of the TLC must have been an internal auditor, but obviously the internal auditing function of the TLC is ineffective if he can get fired for revealing information like that. The auditors of ball and computer drawings are not supposed to be employees of the lottery.

Reply #12

guesser — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 04:41:30 GMT

Anything, repeat, ANYTHING generated from a computer can be......... 'monkeyed with'.

*I* can write a RnG that is random, and I can also write a RnG that isn't random as a 'one-off', once the 'funny' code has been executed, it can be made to delete or change itself and nobody is the wiser. It's all about what's loaded into memory at execution time and isn't far-fetched at all.

Reply #11

emilyg — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 03:29:49 GMT

r.r. coveyou

Reply #10

pumpi76 — Sun, 23 Jul 2006 03:11:15 GMT

If the programmer made the RnG so that in draw number 22, the digits 88 will appears and for it to follow a numberic series or mathematical series, that only the programmer will know then there is no way that the auditor will know....if he knows that draw number 10, 24, 61, 112 (numeric series) the number 2 3 will come up, then no one could noticed it..

What's an auditor

Reply #9

Rip Snorter — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:46:54 GMT

Good point.

The quote even sounds vaguely familiar

Jack

Reply #8

csfb — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:41:49 GMT

Who was it that said, The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance.

I'll have to get back to you on that one, and in what context he said it. The author escapes me at the moment.

Cheers

Reply #7

Rip Snorter — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:25:25 GMT

If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion,

Probably so. Texans were certainly shocked when the person over in the auditing function revealed internal emails expressing concern for the practices of the Lottery Commission. (Revealed AFTER he was fired).

Wonder if the guy ever found another job, I do. Likely his services are in great demand these days for his having gone public.

But aud... [ More ]

Reply #6

MillionsWanted — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:20:57 GMT

It is without doubt that the auditor must be a matematician and statistician with B.Sc. in computer engineering.

Reply #5

ryanm — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:15:04 GMT

If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.

Reply #4

Rip Snorter — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 16:05:07 GMT

I posted this on another thread, but I think I might have overstated the case. From what you're saying there'd be no reason for the auditor to get a cut of the action.

For that matter, there's even the remote and unlikely possibility no lottery official would know or be involved. No one except some programmer off in Cozumel sipping Margueritas and smiling to himself.

J

Screen shows a set of numbers, printer spits out a line.

Auditor: Is that it?

Lottery official: That... [ More ]

Reply #3

four4me — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:53:46 GMT

I agree with konane.

when a programmer programs code he can hide anything he want's to happen in the code. even burry it deep in some sub-routine, countless ways it can be corrupted. Unless the auditor is an experienced programmed he would have great difficulty detecting any abnormalities.

About the only way an auditor might see something amiss is if every 3rd day of the month the same number came out of the program possibly in different order. It would have to be something he might catc... [ More ]

Reply #2

lotterybraker — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:49:35 GMT

Well..I would just like to say this..IF..said Individuals want to cheat really really bad enough..they will try to tamper with said Computer or the ping pong balls if they have it in their mind to try and cheat..I do However, feel like the computer would be much harder to detect..although my computer knowledge is somewhat Limited( understatement to say the least..lol)..I would think that some computer person somewhere should be able to tell if said computer has been messed with..looks to me lik... [ More ]

Reply #1

konane — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:38:59 GMT

I voted no unless the auditor is also a programmer familiar with the specific RNG program used to generate winning numbers.

Poll - RNG, auditors and game fraud

Rip Snorter — Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:35:43 GMT

(I'm aware this subject has been addressed before. I beg forgiveness.)

Almost all of you know a lot more than I do about computers and programming technology.

My general impression as a sub-novice in electronic technology is that no amount of 'oversight', no amount of 'auditing', no legion of disinterested observers could be expected to detect fraud prior to the draw (and probably not following it unless it's painfully obvious)

I'll hold off voting the poll until I see how the wind blo... [ More ]