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Poll - RNG, auditors and game fraud

Topic closed. 28 replies. Last post 10 years ago by konane.

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Can bias, or fraud in RNG games be detected by 'auditors'?

No [ 4 ]  [14.29%]
Yes [ 7 ]  [25.00%]
Probably not [ 7 ]  [25.00%]
Probably so [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
Emphatically yes [ 1 ]  [3.57%]
Emphatically no [ 1 ]  [3.57%]
Yes, but with reservations [ 2 ]  [7.14%]
No, but with reservations [ 3 ]  [10.71%]
I don't know [ 2 ]  [7.14%]
I ain't admitting to nuthun ( lottery official) [ 1 ]  [3.57%]
Total Valid Votes [ 28 ]  
Discarded Votes [ 1 ]  
Avatar
New Mexico
United States
Member #12305
March 10, 2005
2984 Posts
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Posted: July 22, 2006, 11:35 am - IP Logged

(I'm aware this subject has been addressed before. I beg forgiveness.)

Almost all of you know a lot more than I do about computers and programming technology.

My general impression as a sub-novice in electronic technology is that no amount of 'oversight', no amount of 'auditing', no legion of disinterested observers could be expected to detect fraud prior to the draw (and probably not following it unless it's painfully obvious)

I'll hold off voting the poll until I see how the wind blows, then vote the majority public opinion, as always.

Jack

Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

It's about number behavior.

Egos don't count.

 

Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

 

    konane's avatar - wallace
    Atlanta, GA
    United States
    Member #1265
    March 13, 2003
    3333 Posts
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    Posted: July 22, 2006, 11:38 am - IP Logged

    I voted no unless the auditor is also a programmer familiar with the specific RNG program used to generate winning numbers.

    Good luck to everyone!

      lotterybraker's avatar - pyramid
      mississippi
      United States
      Member #34478
      March 3, 2006
      5903 Posts
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      Posted: July 22, 2006, 11:49 am - IP Logged

      Well..I would just like to say this..IF..said Individuals want to cheat really really bad enough..they will try to tamper with said Computer or the ping pong balls if they  have it in their mind to try and cheat..I do However, feel like the computer would be much harder to detect..although my computer knowledge is somewhat Limited( understatement to say the least..lol)..I would think that some computer person somewhere should be able to tell if said computer has been messed with..looks to me like..of course that is just a guess..

      "Attention all Mathematicians: Check your degree at the door because when it comes to whole numbers you are the Amateur"

        four4me's avatar - gate1
        MD
        United States
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        June 18, 2003
        8359 Posts
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        Posted: July 22, 2006, 11:53 am - IP Logged

        I voted no unless the auditor is also a programmer familiar with the specific RNG program used to generate winning numbers.

        I agree with konane.

        when a programmer programs code he can hide anything he want's to happen in the code. even burry it deep in some sub-routine, countless ways it can be corrupted. Unless the auditor is an experienced programmed he would have great difficulty detecting any abnormalities.

        About the only way an auditor might see something amiss is if every 3rd day of the month the same number came out of the program possibly in different order. It would have to be something he might catch by eye or a program designed to trace malicious code. There are some pretty savvy programmers. I'm willing to bet that even two accomplished programmers couldn't find someone's trick codes unless they were given some kind of hint as to what to look for.

         

          Avatar
          New Mexico
          United States
          Member #12305
          March 10, 2005
          2984 Posts
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          Posted: July 22, 2006, 12:05 pm - IP Logged

          I posted this on another thread, but I think I might have overstated the case.  From what you're saying there'd be no reason for the auditor to get a cut of the action. 

          For that matter, there's even the remote and unlikely possibility no lottery official would know or be involved.  No one except some programmer off in Cozumel sipping Margueritas and smiling to himself.

          J

           

          Screen shows a set of numbers, printer spits out a line.

          Auditor:
          "Is that it?"

          Lottery official: "That's her."

          Auditor looks at the printed number, compares it to the number on the screen.

          "
          She's a winner."

          Lottery Official winks at Auditor.

          "Ain't she, though?"  Auditor and Lottery Official high-five.  "Your turn again tomorrow."

          Lottery Official phones the television, reports the number, then calls cousin Charlie.

          "She's a winner! Got through the careful scrutiny of the Auditor. We done it again!"


           

           

           

           

          Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

          It's about number behavior.

          Egos don't count.

           

          Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

           

            Avatar
            Morrison, IL
            United States
            Member #4657
            May 13, 2004
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            Posted: July 22, 2006, 12:15 pm - IP Logged

            If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.

              MillionsWanted's avatar - 24Qa6LT

              Norway
              Member #9517
              December 10, 2004
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              Posted: July 22, 2006, 12:20 pm - IP Logged

              It is without doubt that the auditor must be a matematician and statistician with B.Sc. in computer engineering.

                Avatar
                New Mexico
                United States
                Member #12305
                March 10, 2005
                2984 Posts
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                Posted: July 22, 2006, 12:25 pm - IP Logged

                If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.

                If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion,

                Probably so.  Texans were certainly shocked when the person over in the auditing function revealed internal emails expressing concern for the practices of the Lottery Commission.  (Revealed AFTER he was fired).

                Wonder if the guy ever found another job, I do.  Likely his services are in great demand these days for his having gone public.

                But auditors probably don't mind destroying their lives and their careers to go live under a bridge for the sake of integrity.

                Jack

                 

                Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

                It's about number behavior.

                Egos don't count.

                 

                Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

                 

                  csfb's avatar - Lottery-001.jpg

                  United States
                  Member #15309
                  May 13, 2005
                  307 Posts
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                  Posted: July 22, 2006, 12:41 pm - IP Logged

                   Who was it that said, "The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance." 

                  I'll have to get back to you on that one, and in what context he said it.  The author escapes me at the moment.

                  Cheers!

                           Sun Smiley             

                    Avatar
                    New Mexico
                    United States
                    Member #12305
                    March 10, 2005
                    2984 Posts
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                    Posted: July 22, 2006, 4:46 pm - IP Logged

                    Good point.

                    The quote even sounds vaguely familiar

                    Jack

                    Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

                    It's about number behavior.

                    Egos don't count.

                     

                    Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

                     

                      Avatar

                      Honduras
                      Member #20982
                      August 29, 2005
                      4715 Posts
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                      Posted: July 22, 2006, 11:11 pm - IP Logged

                      If the programmer made the RnG so that in draw number 22, the digits 88 will appears and for it to follow a numberic series or mathematical series, that only the programmer will know then there is no way that the auditor will know....if he knows that draw number 10, 24, 61, 112 (numeric series) the number 2 & 3 will come up, then no one could noticed it..

                      What's an auditor?

                      The Forex trades: 1.6 Trillion dollars EVERY day, that´s more than the GDP of the Carribbean Central America, COMBINED. Enough to feed every crook out there for centuries...To all Geniuses & Powers Countries of the World the Planet needs breakthroughs in all Medicine, Veterinary, Biology related fields, Psychology, Population Psychology/Sociology..They need to genetically ingeneer new plants species/types to give more variety of plants and thus have more resources for combating diseases¨


                       


                       


                       

                       


                        emilyg's avatar - cat anm.gif

                        United States
                        Member #14
                        November 9, 2001
                        31337 Posts
                        Online
                        Posted: July 22, 2006, 11:29 pm - IP Logged

                         Who was it that said, "The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance." 

                        I'll have to get back to you on that one, and in what context he said it.  The author escapes me at the moment.

                        Cheers!

                        r.r. coveyou

                        love to nibble those micey feet.

                         

                                                     

                          guesser's avatar - Lottery-017.jpg

                          United States
                          Member #41383
                          June 16, 2006
                          1969 Posts
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                          Posted: July 23, 2006, 12:41 am - IP Logged

                          Anything, repeat, ANYTHING generated from a computer can be......... 'monkeyed with'.

                           

                          *I* can write a RnG that is random, and I can also write a RnG that isn't random as a 'one-off', once the 'funny' code has been executed, it can be made to delete or change itself and nobody is the wiser.  It's all about what's loaded into memory at execution time and isn't far-fetched at all.

                            Avatar
                            Morrison, IL
                            United States
                            Member #4657
                            May 13, 2004
                            1884 Posts
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                            Posted: July 23, 2006, 12:53 am - IP Logged

                            If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion, which would really shock the public.

                            If the auditors could not gather sufficient evidence for the integrity of an RNG drawing, I'm pretty sure they'd qualify or disclaim an opinion,

                            Probably so.  Texans were certainly shocked when the person over in the auditing function revealed internal emails expressing concern for the practices of the Lottery Commission.  (Revealed AFTER he was fired).

                            Wonder if the guy ever found another job, I do.  Likely his services are in great demand these days for his having gone public.

                            But auditors probably don't mind destroying their lives and their careers to go live under a bridge for the sake of integrity.

                            Jack

                             

                            Auditors are supposed to be INDEPENDENT of the entities they're auditing. They work for public accounting firms, not their clients. The auditor of the TLC must have been an internal auditor, but obviously the internal auditing function of the TLC is ineffective if he can get fired for revealing information like that. The auditors of ball and computer drawings are not supposed to be employees of the lottery.

                            ---

                              justxploring's avatar - villiarna
                              Wandering Aimlessly
                              United States
                              Member #25360
                              November 5, 2005
                              4461 Posts
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                              Posted: July 23, 2006, 5:33 am - IP Logged

                              "Well..I would just like to say this..IF..said Individuals want to cheat really really bad enough..they will try to tamper with said Computer or the ping pong balls if they have it in their mind to try and cheat.." Lotterybraker

                              They'd only try to Tampa with the ping pong balls in Florida.  Stooges