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Poll - RNG, auditors and game fraud

Topic closed. 28 replies. Last post 10 years ago by konane.

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Can bias, or fraud in RNG games be detected by 'auditors'?

No [ 4 ]  [14.29%]
Yes [ 7 ]  [25.00%]
Probably not [ 7 ]  [25.00%]
Probably so [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
Emphatically yes [ 1 ]  [3.57%]
Emphatically no [ 1 ]  [3.57%]
Yes, but with reservations [ 2 ]  [7.14%]
No, but with reservations [ 3 ]  [10.71%]
I don't know [ 2 ]  [7.14%]
I ain't admitting to nuthun ( lottery official) [ 1 ]  [3.57%]
Total Valid Votes [ 28 ]  
Discarded Votes [ 1 ]  
Raven62's avatar - binary
New Jersey
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Posted: July 23, 2006, 6:01 am - IP Logged

"Well..I would just like to say this..IF..said Individuals want to cheat really really bad enough..they will try to tamper with said Computer or the ping pong balls if they have it in their mind to try and cheat.." Lotterybraker

They'd only try to Tampa with the ping pong balls in Florida.  Stooges

Or was that Election Results? Wink

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    Honduras
    Member #20982
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    Posted: July 23, 2006, 3:22 pm - IP Logged

    Even thought i said: "If the programmer made the RnG so that in draw number 22, the digits 88 will appears and for it to follow a numberic series or mathematical series, that only the programmer will know then there is no way that the auditor will know....if he knows that draw number 10, 24, 61, 112 (numeric series) the number 2 & 3 will come up, then no one could noticed it.."

    Even though i said that, It is not efficient, because if they do pre-testing, it will mess up the count (i should get pay to say this), The best thing to do if you wanted to make fraud in the Rng, is to let the RnG repeat certain ratios during certain numeric/integer sequences but in a space, let's say of 5..For example, for pick4,  you let the RnG in draw number 14-19 play only the ratio 2even over 2 odd (2/2), and you let it skip to another draw which will be 51-56, and then 89-94 and then 130-135 and so on, following an integer sequence (it doesn't have to follow any of the known integer sequences, you could make your own)...And you will have to make sure that the skips are very far apart... And to make it very unnoticeable, make sure the sequence skips/jumps are very far apart, this way the numbers will not repeat when they do, but the ratio do....And what will you do if you knew that saturday, what was going to play was going to be 2 even and 2 odds?And it doesn't have to be in 5's, it could be in 7's..And it doesn't have to be every sequence, you could set it up so that you can cash in 3 times a year, just make sure that when you cash in, you cash in heavily....This way you come up ahead no matter how many pre-testing they do...And the pattern don't have to be even over odd it could be higher over low, something even more disguiseable, or the numbers could be encrypted...

    The pattern will be more evident if the pick3/pick4 plays twice a day, than if it plays once a day...If it plays once a day you better off and people couldn't notice it...It the game plays twice a day, then you will have to make the "skips/jumps" between sequences, larger (bigger)....

     There is also another way, that i call the "ghost" because it doesn't leave any traces, and it is unpercetible, but i am not sure if i will say it here: ).....Who knows officials could be listening...Who knows i might change my mind...But to do all that, i think you will have to know a lot, and lots about programming, you will have to be like a master at programming...

     

    "...Those eyes......they just dissappeared....."......              from movie "Predator 1"....

      justxploring's avatar - villiarna
      Wandering Aimlessly
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      Posted: July 24, 2006, 5:36 am - IP Logged

      Or was that Election Results? Wink

      LOL. Don't get me started on that one, Chad...I mean Raven.

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        NY
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        Posted: July 24, 2006, 11:48 am - IP Logged

        Anything, repeat, ANYTHING generated from a computer can be......... 'monkeyed with'.

         

        *I* can write a RnG that is random, and I can also write a RnG that isn't random as a 'one-off', once the 'funny' code has been executed, it can be made to delete or change itself and nobody is the wiser.  It's all about what's loaded into memory at execution time and isn't far-fetched at all.

        Nothing generated by a computer can be "monkeyed with". Computers are extremely stupid machines that will only do exactly what they are told to do, and the instructions have to be very explicit. The only way to make the program purposely generate a non-random result is to write instructions to do so.

        As far as nobody being  the wiser about what was written if the code is changed, you're making an awful lot of assumptions. I certainly wouldn't claim that the lotteries are perfect in their oversight, but your claim requires a number of extremely stupid errors in the oversight. If there was only one copy of the program and it was never duplicated, backed up, installed on multiple machines, or printed as hard copy, then it might go unnoticed. That also assumes that it is written by only one person, poorly documented and never reviewed by others, or that all of the people responsible for the program are involved in a conspiracy. Even then, if somebody decides to investigate the computer itself, the original code may well be recovered from the hard drive.

        As far as the idea that something could simply be buried in the code, those pesky explicit instructions also make that impossible. Nothing can be buried or hidden. If the code is crappy, it will be more difficult for somebody else to figure out what's being done (which is a good reason to send some programmers off to work at McDonald's, regardless of who they're writing code for), but if somebody chooses to look at it the code will tell them exactly what the program does.

        There's no question that computer generated random numbers aren't perfectly random, but the only way to know what number will come up is to be thoroughly familiar with the program and its limitations, and to track the results of every single number that is generated. The amount of oversight necessary to prevent that is child's play. The lotteries already collect about half of every dollar played and they aren't going to do anything to deliberatly risk damaging that kind of cash cow. The kind of conspiracy that would be required for any significant fraud based on the RNG is only found in bad fiction.

          four4me's avatar - gate1
          MD
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          Posted: July 24, 2006, 2:28 pm - IP Logged

          come on Floyd

          In RNG programs a programmer can make whatever numbers he wants to come out on any particular day. he can set the program up in ways no one would have the foggiest idea of what's going on. the program could work in many ways selecting and deselecting numbers that have been bet and drawing whatever number is being bet the least. or drawing a number that would pay out only a small percentage of the take in.

          let's put this another way say i wanted the number 328 to come out on the second Tuesday of the month. this year in august and 427 to come out on the 3rd Friday in September. would you say it couldn't be programmed in a way no one could figure it out. I say it can and i also think if the programmer wanted he could write any RNG program to function in any number of ways. Be it for the benefit of the lottery or himself.

          I'm not a programmer but i have worked in a CNC (computer numerical control) machine shop we have had programmers hide programs inside programs that were running (the programmer calls up a macro or a loop or a nested program that program function isn't on the printed out copy of the original program sent out to the controller. But if you didn't know what to look for you'd never find it, in the controller in fact it could even be run from the main computer in another location of the shop. The company wanted it done that way on some jobs because they didn't want someone to alter the information in the job that was being machined. This is just on example of a program that can be written like this.

          If you type hidden files in your search engine you'll fine lots of examples of hidden files.

          This is just one example of hidden code.
          http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11352

          Quote from the article

          This week, two research groups independently and separately reported that music giant Sony BMG has used software hiding techniques more commonly found in rootkits to prevent removal of the company's copy protection software. A rootkit is software that hides its presence on a computer while controlling critical system functions, and security professionals have lately warned that the addition of the technology to a variety of Internet threats--from bots to spyware--makes the malicious code more difficult to find and remove.

            JAP69's avatar - alas
            South Carolina
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            Posted: July 24, 2006, 6:52 pm - IP Logged

            The lotteries have artificial brain power waves to draw the number they want.

            Unseen brain waves can not be detected by auditors.

            MAGA

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              Posted: July 25, 2006, 2:24 pm - IP Logged

              come on Floyd

              In RNG programs a programmer can make whatever numbers he wants to come out on any particular day. he can set the program up in ways no one would have the foggiest idea of what's going on. the program could work in many ways selecting and deselecting numbers that have been bet and drawing whatever number is being bet the least. or drawing a number that would pay out only a small percentage of the take in.

              let's put this another way say i wanted the number 328 to come out on the second Tuesday of the month. this year in august and 427 to come out on the 3rd Friday in September. would you say it couldn't be programmed in a way no one could figure it out. I say it can and i also think if the programmer wanted he could write any RNG program to function in any number of ways. Be it for the benefit of the lottery or himself.

              I'm not a programmer but i have worked in a CNC (computer numerical control) machine shop we have had programmers hide programs inside programs that were running (the programmer calls up a macro or a loop or a nested program that program function isn't on the printed out copy of the original program sent out to the controller. But if you didn't know what to look for you'd never find it, in the controller in fact it could even be run from the main computer in another location of the shop. The company wanted it done that way on some jobs because they didn't want someone to alter the information in the job that was being machined. This is just on example of a program that can be written like this.

              If you type hidden files in your search engine you'll fine lots of examples of hidden files.

              This is just one example of hidden code.
              http://www.securityfocus.com/news/11352

              Quote from the article

              This week, two research groups independently and separately reported that music giant Sony BMG has used software hiding techniques more commonly found in rootkits to prevent removal of the company's copy protection software. A rootkit is software that hides its presence on a computer while controlling critical system functions, and security professionals have lately warned that the addition of the technology to a variety of Internet threats--from bots to spyware--makes the malicious code more difficult to find and remove.

              I never said that a programmer can't make a program do exactly what they want, only that they can't keep others from seeing what was done if they chose to look. 

              Before I spend time on a more thorough answer, let me make sure I understand your position. You seem to be saying that SONY tried really hard to hide some anti-piracy files, two people discoverd those files independently, and that demonstrates that programs can be hidden so that nobody will ever know. Is that right? Perhaps you're also suggesting that the program to generate random numbers will be hidden and lottery officials won't know it's there, and therefore can't find it?

                four4me's avatar - gate1
                MD
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                Posted: July 25, 2006, 3:04 pm - IP Logged

                wow good thing i typed this in an email cause when i went to post it, it disappeared

                I know that you know the average person couldn't read one line of code if they weren't programmers themselves. Since most programmers use sophisticated software to write programs. An auditor is there to check every aspect of the game and check the books/accounting of the games. He wouldn't know one way or another if the program was set up to spit out any particular number or numbers unless he to was familiar with the programming knowledge. Basically all he/she would see are a bunch of numbers that appeared to be randomly generated. If the programmer has set some function to generate certain numbers or patterns then he she would have no problem doing it or hiding it.

                As for the Sony thing i didn't want to just site that as an example there are probably hundreds of examples similar to that one.

                A lot of information is posted on the thread (eliminate computerized drawings) Link at the top of this page.

                So lets not get bound up by my belief that RNG's can be corrupted. Ask loosinjeff and a few other posters who live in Indiana what they believe is being done in their state as to what or how Indiana is duping it's players out of their hard earned money. Compare Indiana's payout's on pick 3/4 games with any other state. They have the lowest payout's of any state with equal or less population. Even when numbers like 123 or 456 and 1234 or 4567 come out there payout's are lousy compared to other state who show record payout's. They might have ten players in the whole state that only played 1234 while in other states they have sold out the number 1234 for a record payout.

                  konane's avatar - wallace
                  Atlanta, GA
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                  Posted: July 25, 2006, 3:41 pm - IP Logged

                  Using RNG's you're probably closer to correct than you may imaging.   Green laugh  Green laugh  Green laugh

                   

                  Finally found the information I read about the mind influencing RNG results that I've mentioned before.... used as an illustration of another subject.  Princeton research, no less.

                   

                  "For over 25 years, scientists at Princeton University's Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research (PEAR) Laboratory have demonstrated powerful correlations between human intention and machine behavior. They have shown that untrained individuals can influence the output of random mechanical and electronic number generators, just by thinking in which direction the numbers should go. These effects were found to be independent of space and time. Effects also occurred when the individual was thousands of miles away.2 "......

                  http://blogs.lotterypost.com/konane/2006/7/the-power-of-the-mind.htm

                  Good luck to everyone!

                    konane's avatar - wallace
                    Atlanta, GA
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                    Posted: July 25, 2006, 3:46 pm - IP Logged

                    Rootkits

                    http://clusty.com/search?tb=firefox-1.1.1&locale=en-US&query=rootkits

                     

                    Have read some articles about them that they're close to impossible to detect unless you specifically know what you're looking for, impossible for virus software or spyware to detect and are being used more and more without someone's knowledge of what they've downloaded.

                    Good luck to everyone!

                      Tenaj's avatar - michellea
                      Charlotte NC
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                      Posted: July 25, 2006, 4:21 pm - IP Logged

                      Yes NodI'm sure some of these hackers create this stuff to sell the products to remove it.

                      takeemtothebank

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                        Posted: July 26, 2006, 2:05 am - IP Logged

                        wow good thing i typed this in an email cause when i went to post it, it disappeared

                        I know that you know the average person couldn't read one line of code if they weren't programmers themselves. Since most programmers use sophisticated software to write programs. An auditor is there to check every aspect of the game and check the books/accounting of the games. He wouldn't know one way or another if the program was set up to spit out any particular number or numbers unless he to was familiar with the programming knowledge. Basically all he/she would see are a bunch of numbers that appeared to be randomly generated. If the programmer has set some function to generate certain numbers or patterns then he she would have no problem doing it or hiding it.

                        As for the Sony thing i didn't want to just site that as an example there are probably hundreds of examples similar to that one.

                        A lot of information is posted on the thread (eliminate computerized drawings) Link at the top of this page.

                        So lets not get bound up by my belief that RNG's can be corrupted. Ask loosinjeff and a few other posters who live in Indiana what they believe is being done in their state as to what or how Indiana is duping it's players out of their hard earned money. Compare Indiana's payout's on pick 3/4 games with any other state. They have the lowest payout's of any state with equal or less population. Even when numbers like 123 or 456 and 1234 or 4567 come out there payout's are lousy compared to other state who show record payout's. They might have ten players in the whole state that only played 1234 while in other states they have sold out the number 1234 for a record payout.


                        It would be a bit problematic if the auditor had to examine the code for the program before each drawing took place even if it was a fairly small program. All the auditor needs to do is ensure that the machine hasn't been tampered with. Checking the program would be a completely separate step done by somebody with the requisite skills.

                        Since some people seem to be confused by root kits I'll try to make it as simple as possible. The operating system of your computer has all sorts of programs that most people won't see because Apple or Microsoft don't want you to see them for various reasons. People who write malware don't want you to know that their program is on your computer so they hide them, too, but the program is still there in plain sight if you know where to look.  It's just like putting drugs in one of the upper cabinets in your kitchen and putting a child proof latch on the door. Your 5 year old probably won't find them, but they're right there if you open the door. If a lottery uses a program to generate random numbers they know they have a program that does it. If they want to look at the program they don't have to spend a lot of time looking for it. With either program a programmer who knows the langauge the program is written in can read the code and see exactly what the program does.

                        Even if the operating system is designed so that it won't let you find some files, there are other programs that can be used to find them. If nothing else, a hard drive can be read one bit at a time. It's impossible to prevent somebody from examining a program unless the entire program ceases to exist. The best you can do is make it hard to find and hard to understand. 

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                          Honduras
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                          Posted: July 26, 2006, 12:13 pm - IP Logged

                          I think a perfect example of a program that can work and must people not know what's inside the program is a "computer virus or worm", even though i don't know if they are classified as programs; I am not a computer expert, nor do i know about virusus and wormns...

                          But the latest thing i read about a computer virus/worm is that they can get into your computers and make your computer send command to other dead computers or they can simply comand your computer to send tons of spam emails..Don't know how the thing works, but it shows that programs can do things right under your noces and you wouldn't know...

                          There are viruses that if you don't get the latest update from the computer virus protection service, your computer virus blocker will not pick it up...

                          "...Those eyes......they just dissappeared..."                          from movie "Predator 1"...

                            konane's avatar - wallace
                            Atlanta, GA
                            United States
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                            Posted: July 26, 2006, 7:58 pm - IP Logged

                            I stand corrected after doing some quick research that rootkits can be detected by some spyware removal software.

                            Link below is to a free Rootkit Revealer plus discussion about how they can be deployed. 

                            This one in particular caught my eye.

                            ........"Memory-Based Rootkits
                            Memory-based rootkits are malware that has no persistent code and therefore does not survive a reboot. " .....

                             http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/RootkitRevealer.html 

                             

                             

                            Good luck to everyone!