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Lottery draw witnesses

Topic closed. 11 replies. Last post 11 years ago by Rip Snorter.

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New Mexico
United States
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March 10, 2005
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Posted: May 27, 2006, 10:04 am - IP Logged

Browsing through the PA Lottery site I came across this.  Seems they invite folks unconnected to the lottery to witness the drawings, tests, compliance with procedures, both before and after the draws.

I've looked at a lot of official lottery sites, but I've never seen reference to such practices by other states.  Most don't even make it easy to discover when and where drawings are conducted.

Seems to me this is a great means of maintaining public involvement and trust.

Are any of you aware of other lotteries doing anything similar?

 From the PA site:

The Drawing

Located at WHP Studios, Sixth Street , Harrisburg , PA.

Every evening the drawing includes Daily Number, BIG 4 and CASH 5; on Tuesday and Friday we also have the MATCH 6 drawing; on Monday and Thursday, we also have the LUCKY FOR LIFE LOTTO drawing.

The total time needed to complete the process is approximately 3½ hours.

Your Role as a Witness

As a witness, you have an important responsibility as you represent the general public to witness all drawing-related activities and tasks to ensure the integrity of the drawings and public confidence in the Pennsylvania Lottery.

You will directly participate in the selection of the machines and ball sets for all of that evening's games, observing all pre-drawing and post-drawing tests, as well as being on camera for the live drawing.

You complement a drawing staff of two Pennsylvania Lottery officials, who directly perform all drawing tasks, and two representatives from the independent CPA firm, who monitor all tasks to ensure that all procedures are properly performed, and that all security standards are met.

You will be instructed on everything you need to do. There is nothing you need to prepare for.

The Schedule

Our nightly drawing activities begin at 4 p.m. with dinner provided, courtesy of the Pennsylvania Lottery, for the scheduled witnesses at a suburban Harrisburg restaurant. You will be met at the restaurant by members of our drawing staff, who will provide an overview of the evening's procedures and your role in the drawing.

After dinner, you and the drawing staff will proceed to WHP Studios where you are met by representatives of the Certified Public Accounting (CPA) group and will begin the drawing procedures.

Witnesses are asked to provide their own transportation due to various factors. In the event that you are unable to drive, you are welcome to use a "third party" (a guest) to drive you to the restaurant and studio.

Participation as an individual involves two consecutive days - the first day you will function as the "back-up" witness (off-camera), and the second day you will be the "on-camera" witness.

If participating as a couple and you wish to accompany each other for both assignments, a third consecutive day would be involved.

A drawing official will contact you to schedule you at your convenience. The scheduling will be confirmed by a follow-up letter.

You may cancel or postpone if you encounter an emergency or other problem. We do request that you call us as early as possible if you need to cancel, so that we may find a replacement witness.

Normally, witnesses participate no more than once every six months.

The Process

Meet members of Pennsylvania Lottery drawing staff at 4 p.m. for dinner.

Arrive at WHP Studios no later than 5:30 p.m.

Assist in the random selection of machines and ball sets, and observe security tests.

Observe pre-drawing tests in rehearsal area.

Observe the movement of equipment into main studio area.

Observe studio test drawings - then on-camera witness gets practice.

Participate in the live drawings at 6:58:50 p.m.

Observe post-drawing verification and tests.

Secure machines and ball sets for the night.

Sign paperwork and go home - usually no later than 7:30 p.m.

Proceeds from the Pennsylvania Lottery Benefit

Older Pennsylvanians. Every Day.

For more information on benefits for older Pennsylvanians, please see the additional links on our web site homepage at www.palottery.com. Thank you.


Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

It's about number behavior.

Egos don't count.

 

Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

 

    justxploring's avatar - villiarna
    Wandering Aimlessly
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    November 5, 2005
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    Posted: May 27, 2006, 3:45 pm - IP Logged

    Thanks for this information. I find it to be very interesting and agree with you.  I wonder if one of the rules is that you cannot be a participant in that evening's draw. Just a thought that popped up in my head.

    EDIT:  What I meant to say was that you can't be a ticket holder for that game. Just reread my comment and it wasn't too clear.

      bellyache's avatar - 64x64a9wg

      United States
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      March 18, 2005
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      Posted: May 27, 2006, 4:05 pm - IP Logged

      Interesting. I didn't know they allowed "unofficial" people to witness drawings. I wonder if they do this with all states or just a few.

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        United States
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        January 1, 2006
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        Posted: May 27, 2006, 5:41 pm - IP Logged

        no they do not especially corrupted new jersey where every thing is drowning in taxes and all is done behind closed doorsUS Flag

          four4me's avatar - gate1
          MD
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          June 18, 2003
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          Posted: May 27, 2006, 5:45 pm - IP Logged

          Maryland used to always have a witness. I haven't seen one in a long time though. The drawings take place in the studio where the news is broadcast except for special occasions when they take the game to events and such.

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            New Mexico
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            Posted: May 27, 2006, 9:55 pm - IP Logged

            Interesting. I searched a long while on the NY webpage and couldn't find any indication of where the draws are held, except possibly they might be held in whatchallit, Schenectady, maybe. 

            New Mexico evidently holds draws in Albuquerque, maybe at lottery HQ, or maybe at some TV station.

            I got the idea Michigan holds the drawings somewhere in Lansing.

            Illinois apparently does it in a television station in Chicago.

            Colorado hints the drawings are held in Pueblo.

            Arizona, no indication where.

            Massa whachallit, tussets might hold drawings in Braintree.

             

            Why the secrecy?

             

            Where I live some oil company has decided to open an abandoned oil pipeline from Texas to somewhere west of here for refinement.  The line's been abandoned for 50 years, so the locals are concerned about the integrity and want to know a lot of details to be assured they don't drown us all in oil.

            Department of Homeland Security has determined that complying with open records and public hearing laws would 'possibly assist terrorists', so it's a fait accompli.

            I'm betting that's also the reason the lotteries don't want people to know where they do their drawings and don't want public witnesses.

            Having that knowledge available to consumers and citizens might assist terrorists.

            Jack

            Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

            It's about number behavior.

            Egos don't count.

             

            Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

             

              bellyache's avatar - 64x64a9wg

              United States
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              March 18, 2005
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              Posted: May 27, 2006, 10:06 pm - IP Logged

              I would think that lottery officials would want to have witnesses. It would make them seem more credible. It makes it seem like they have something to hide when they keep everything hushed and behind closed doors.

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                New Mexico
                United States
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                March 10, 2005
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                Posted: May 27, 2006, 10:19 pm - IP Logged

                I would think that lottery officials would want to have witnesses. It would make them seem more credible. It makes it seem like they have something to hide when they keep everything hushed and behind closed doors.

                Until I began trying to find out where they do their draws I figured they were probably a fairly honest lot, with an occasional exception.

                After searching around and discovering the shroud of secrecy over the whole thing in most states, veiled by a seeming openness about most other things, I'm a lot less certain.

                Heck, I honestly ain't even sure there actually any draws held in my own state, RNG, dice, flipping coins.  The only people who could testify any draw is held are the people with a vested interest.  Maybe the top gun over there just takes the numbers he wrote down earlier on his napkin while they were doing lunch.

                Jack

                Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

                It's about number behavior.

                Egos don't count.

                 

                Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

                 

                  LOTTOMIKE's avatar - rsz 1franklinmillion-front.jpg
                  Tennessee
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                  October 15, 2004
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                  Posted: May 28, 2006, 8:49 am - IP Logged

                  jack,new mexico uses the RNG.its a computer drawn state.interesting fact most people don't know is that every state west of the mississippi river uses computer draws except texas and oklahoma.the reverse holds true in the fact that almost every state east of the mississippi uses ball draws with the exception of two or three states.

                    LOTTOMIKE's avatar - rsz 1franklinmillion-front.jpg
                    Tennessee
                    United States
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                    October 15, 2004
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                    Posted: May 28, 2006, 8:50 am - IP Logged

                    i like roadrunner cash in new mexico.a nice lil pick 5 game.and 4 this way is a great way to play pick 4 the way it is set up.

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                      New Mexico
                      United States
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                      March 10, 2005
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                      Posted: May 28, 2006, 9:56 am - IP Logged

                      Thanks Mike:

                      I'm aware they use comp draws.

                      However, somewhere there's an alleged room with an alleged computer in it spitting out numbers at a an announced moment.

                      This has to be true if there's any truth at all about lotteries.  Somewhere a comp spits out numbers.  Somewhere else a pingpong ball machine spits out balls with numbers written on them.

                      If the only people present when this happens also receive their paychecks, commissions, etc, within the process there's no incentive for them to rock the boat if something's amiss.  There's strong incentive for them not to do so.

                       This is true, whether it's a comp spitting out RNG numbers (different issue entirely when it comes to trust), or a ball machine.  If there are no witnesses, both methods are suspect.  Even if there are witnesses, but if those witnesses are carefully chosen, the processes are still suspect.

                      Keep in mind, these people are in the business of giving away 'free' money.  Money that, until the draw, is nebulous insofar as where it's going to land.

                      The most compelling incentive for dishonesty in the modern human experience?  Wealth. 

                      So, here's a group of people, (probably no more honest than any group of people randomly picked from the population,) surrounded by, submerged in a pool of wealth that's running around loose waiting for someone to point it somewhere.

                      "The money can't be stolen because it doesn't belong to anyone," the internal culture of that group might well reason.  "If it's pointed to cousin John, who just lost his home in a divorce, who loses? " If it's pointed at the guy the director had lunch with, who's willing to pay a 'finder fee' back to the director, who loses?

                      No person loses, the internal culture of that group might well come to reason.  Because until the numbers are revealed there are only a group of tickets floating around in the universe with numbers on them. 

                      Whatever numbers might have shown up will never be known.  Nobody can lose, and cousin John can get some relief from his financial woes.  Or the friends and acquaintances of the entire lottery commission employee pool can win secondary prizes without raising an eyebrow anywhere.

                      Those secondary prizes are probably where any dishonesty in the draws would show up.  The headliners are probably legitimate, pristine, innocent.  But who pays any attention to secondary prize winners?

                      The cousins, aunts, uncles, illegitimate sons and daughters, mistresses of commissioners, might well all be out there raking in benefits every draw without anyone noticing.  Nothng dishonest about it because nobody loses.  Free money.

                      This is the reason those draws, RNG, balls, whatever, need to be announced, time and place, and need to be subject to random members of the public strolling in off the street and watching from some nearby physical location the way medical students watch a surgeon performing an operation.

                      Otherwise there's no reason any  prudent person should believe any draw happens at all.  The people inside the lottery commission have all the human weaknesses and flaws as the rest of us.

                      And maybe you've noticed nobody's offering to turn us loose in a bank vault.  But that's what we've done for those lottery officials, same temptations and flaws as you and I would have playing Scrooge McDuck in a bank vault, or if the back door came open on an armored truck and spilled money all over the road from hell to breakfast.

                      Admittedly, this won't make RNG more credible nor more verifiable.  But the way it appears now, both methods of draw are so unbelievable it would require awfully gullible people (us) to believe in them.  If we were advising our kids on issues of prudent behavior and trust we'd warn them off trusting anything in the neighborhood of something as shaky as this.

                      Jack

                      Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

                      It's about number behavior.

                      Egos don't count.

                       

                      Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

                       

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                        New Mexico
                        United States
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                        Posted: May 28, 2006, 10:39 am - IP Logged

                        i like roadrunner cash in new mexico.a nice lil pick 5 game.and 4 this way is a great way to play pick 4 the way it is set up.

                        Seems to me the best evidence any lottery, New Mexico, anywhere, could give of an honest operation would show itself in an eagerness, a yearning for public scrutiny.

                        Go to the NM lottery site and try to figure out where the draws are held.  Try to discover where the machines are housed, what 'secure' environment and how that security is maintained.  They tell when the draws are held, and they tell, afterward, what numbers they claim the computer spit out.

                        Seems to me the default position for any prudent person would be that secrecy is prima-faci evidence that something's amiss. 

                        NM's no different than any other lottery environment.

                        I've bought my last NM Roadrunner ticket.

                        Jack

                         

                         

                        Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

                        It's about number behavior.

                        Egos don't count.

                         

                        Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser