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Lottery machines and balls

Topic closed. 11 replies. Last post 7 years ago by eddessaknight.

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What do you do when new machines and balls are introduced

Do nothing [ 10 ]  [58.82%]
Discard statistics and start over [ 2 ]  [11.76%]
Combine old with the new [ 5 ]  [29.41%]
Total Valid Votes [ 17 ]  
Discarded Votes [ 2 ]  
bobby623's avatar - abstract
San Angelo, Texas
United States
Member #1097
January 31, 2003
1394 Posts
Offline
Posted: August 7, 2009, 1:21 pm - IP Logged

All lotteries using machanical ball selection have multiple machines and ball sets.

Texas introduced new ball sets for the Cash 5 game on July 1, 2009

New machines and balls were adopted for the Texas Two-Step game on Feb. 1, 2008.

Texas Lotto got new machines and balls on Feb. 1, 2009.

New balls were introduced for the Pick 3 game on April 1, 2009

What is a player to do!

There seems to be 3 choices:

1. Do nothing.
2. Keep logging the data, combining the old and new.
3. Discard the old data and start fresh from date new balls were adopted.

My wins in the Pick 3 game diminished after the new balls were introduced.
Took me awhile to figure out the cause.

I dumped all of the old files and started fresh. Don't have much data to work with,
but situation will improve in time.

I haven't decided what to do for Lotto and Cash 5.

I'm curious to know what other players do.

Thanks for your interest.

    ThatScaryChick's avatar - x1MqPuM
    Idaho
    United States
    Member #56506
    November 21, 2007
    6537 Posts
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    Posted: August 7, 2009, 3:26 pm - IP Logged

    I don't do anything. But then, my state only has ball drawings for Powerball. The rest of the games are RNG.

    "No one remembers the person who almost climbed the mountain, only the person who eventually gets to the top."


      United States
      Member #75358
      June 1, 2009
      5345 Posts
      Offline
      Posted: August 7, 2009, 10:25 pm - IP Logged

      What can you do? Either keep playing or don't.

      The whole thing stinks. It really doesn't matter if they rotate the balls and machines 47 times and hour, for 10 hours before the draw. The moment they do it once, without telling the player the new positions, it's pretty much hard to predict. The history of the tubes is lost.

      Perhaps, that overdue number you were waiting 2 months for came out in the pretest, and you never even knew it cause they didn't tell you. Pathetic.

      People are so worried about computerized and the possible hacking. I think throwing off the history of the tubes is just as bad.

      In actuality, the ball machines are much worse off because there is no doubt that throwing off the history of the tubes is done everyday. But with computerized, there is some doubt that  ALL of the computerized games are rigged. I'm sure most sane folks realize that only a handful maybe rigged, but not all.

      The proof lies in the following example. If you have just one tube and that tube has 40 or 50 draws with no number 3 showing, its overdue. I don't care about all the theories out there, that number will come out very soon. It's the law of averages at work.




        TheGameGrl's avatar - character catafly.jpg
        A long and winding road
        United States
        Member #17084
        June 10, 2005
        4533 Posts
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        Posted: August 7, 2009, 11:12 pm - IP Logged

        Never quite got the concept of tossing out sheets when the balls are re-established .

        The weight of the balls are what they are. The pressure of the air is the same. THere is no factor that I know of that creates a change that would affect the draw.

        Some folks just assume because its a new set that it affects the mechanical feature. It doesnt.

        So play on because what holds true is ya dont win if ya dont play.

        ~~Is it true, Is it kind,Is it necessary. ~~~

        christmas holly jolly numbers: 255,303,6911, 474,477 silver:47,gold:79.

          ZEN's avatar - DiscoBallGlowing
          CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
          United States
          Member #40436
          June 1, 2006
          180 Posts
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          Posted: August 7, 2009, 11:35 pm - IP Logged

          Hey,

          How do you know? I'm in Illinois and i would love to check and see?

          Any suggestions??

          -Zen

            BobP's avatar - bobp avatar.png
            Dump Water Florida
            United States
            Member #380
            June 5, 2002
            3106 Posts
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            Posted: August 8, 2009, 1:33 am - IP Logged

            Never quite got the concept of tossing out sheets when the balls are re-established .

            The weight of the balls are what they are. The pressure of the air is the same. THere is no factor that I know of that creates a change that would affect the draw.

            Some folks just assume because its a new set that it affects the mechanical feature. It doesnt.

            So play on because what holds true is ya dont win if ya dont play.

            Sounds to me the assumptions are yours and you haven't tested your claims.

            Well I did the test in Florida twice and found the changing out of ballsets did change the frequency of numbers drawn. 

            I went back the necessary years and checked the frequency of numbers for each quarter of the year for the two years the ballsets were used. 

            The same hot numbers were hot for each quarter.  The same average numbers were average for each quarter and the same cold numbers remained cold for each quarter over the two year session.

            After the ballsets were changed out,  two thirds of each group changed frequency to one of the other groups.   Suddenly a third of the former hots became average and a third cold,  a third of the former average became hot and a third cold and a third of the former cold numbers became hot and a third average. 

            The numbers continued in their hot, average, cold frequencies for the life of the new ballsets. 

            Note:  A third of each group remained unchanged.  Law of thirds. 

            Lotto balls may be the same size and weight.  The balls are not tested for bounce, for internal pressure, for skin tension.  Ever try to play with a dead tennis ball compared to one fresh out of the can?  They may look the same and weight the same, but they sure play differently. 

            BobP

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              NY
              United States
              Member #23835
              October 16, 2005
              3475 Posts
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              Posted: August 8, 2009, 2:16 am - IP Logged

              Never quite got the concept of tossing out sheets when the balls are re-established .

              The weight of the balls are what they are. The pressure of the air is the same. THere is no factor that I know of that creates a change that would affect the draw.

              Some folks just assume because its a new set that it affects the mechanical feature. It doesnt.

              So play on because what holds true is ya dont win if ya dont play.

              What Bob said. And then some.

              Not only is the weight of the balls in a new ball set going to be different, the weight of the current ball set is going to change every time the balls are used. The balls scrape against other things and some material is scraped off. Some material may be added. Even if that wasn't true, the weight changes constantly as a result of air pressure, temperature and the position of the moon. Every day the moon pulls billions and billions of tons of water intobays, and onto beaches. It also pulls on the balls, whether it'sdirectly overhead, on the opposite side of the earth, or anywhere else.

              Air pressure is the same? You've seen a weather report, right? Air pressure changes constantly. The balls may not float, but the air still gives them buoyancy, which affects their weight. It also affects the aerodynamic drag on the balls as they move. Temperature is one of the factors that affect air pressure (it will also affect the size of the balls). There are also mechanical effects on air pressure from forced ventilation for heating or cooling.

              Of course all of those differences are very small, but they're still factors that play a role. Even if you went to great lengths to make every drawing exactly the same, from the order of the balls at the start, mixing time, and anything else you could easily control, the overall mixing process is still going to be chaotic.

              Of course you're right that the new ball set doesn't really make for much of a change, especially compared to all of the other factors involved. Bob and others may see different results when a new ball set is introduced, but they'd also see different results for the same period if the same ball set had continued to be used.


                United States
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                June 1, 2009
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                Posted: August 8, 2009, 9:41 am - IP Logged

                What Bob said. And then some.

                Not only is the weight of the balls in a new ball set going to be different, the weight of the current ball set is going to change every time the balls are used. The balls scrape against other things and some material is scraped off. Some material may be added. Even if that wasn't true, the weight changes constantly as a result of air pressure, temperature and the position of the moon. Every day the moon pulls billions and billions of tons of water intobays, and onto beaches. It also pulls on the balls, whether it'sdirectly overhead, on the opposite side of the earth, or anywhere else.

                Air pressure is the same? You've seen a weather report, right? Air pressure changes constantly. The balls may not float, but the air still gives them buoyancy, which affects their weight. It also affects the aerodynamic drag on the balls as they move. Temperature is one of the factors that affect air pressure (it will also affect the size of the balls). There are also mechanical effects on air pressure from forced ventilation for heating or cooling.

                Of course all of those differences are very small, but they're still factors that play a role. Even if you went to great lengths to make every drawing exactly the same, from the order of the balls at the start, mixing time, and anything else you could easily control, the overall mixing process is still going to be chaotic.

                Of course you're right that the new ball set doesn't really make for much of a change, especially compared to all of the other factors involved. Bob and others may see different results when a new ball set is introduced, but they'd also see different results for the same period if the same ball set had continued to be used.

                Just wanted to point out that your theory about the moon is false when applied to small objects such as the balls. Years ago I had a debate about this with a friend, but not about lottery balls and the moon but about the moon's influence on things on earth. After much research I found that the moon only significantly affects  LARGE bodies such as the oceans and the sorts, not small objects. Surely there is a tug on the ping pong balls, but it's so infintesimally small that it bears no mention. Later that year, I received further confirmation when I saw a show on Discovery science about the full moon's supposed influence on people behaving strangely , and it was debunked with the same reasoning I made above.

                One might argue that the balls don't need much influence to make a difference, when it comes to the moon's infinitesimal influence on the balls. I do declare, a lot more tug would be needed.

                  TheGameGrl's avatar - character catafly.jpg
                  A long and winding road
                  United States
                  Member #17084
                  June 10, 2005
                  4533 Posts
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                  Posted: August 8, 2009, 2:01 pm - IP Logged

                  Sounds to me the assumptions are yours and you haven't tested your claims.

                  Well I did the test in Florida twice and found the changing out of ballsets did change the frequency of numbers drawn. 

                  I went back the necessary years and checked the frequency of numbers for each quarter of the year for the two years the ballsets were used. 

                  The same hot numbers were hot for each quarter.  The same average numbers were average for each quarter and the same cold numbers remained cold for each quarter over the two year session.

                  After the ballsets were changed out,  two thirds of each group changed frequency to one of the other groups.   Suddenly a third of the former hots became average and a third cold,  a third of the former average became hot and a third cold and a third of the former cold numbers became hot and a third average. 

                  The numbers continued in their hot, average, cold frequencies for the life of the new ballsets. 

                  Note:  A third of each group remained unchanged.  Law of thirds. 

                  Lotto balls may be the same size and weight.  The balls are not tested for bounce, for internal pressure, for skin tension.  Ever try to play with a dead tennis ball compared to one fresh out of the can?  They may look the same and weight the same, but they sure play differently. 

                  BobP

                  Thanks for sharing your view point! Variety in concepts is certainly a plus!

                  I didnt proclaim to test the theory. Other priorities take precedence. Which is a driving force for change :)

                  Thanks KyFloyd for interjecting what COULD possibly be the imposing factors in creating the change. SO long as there is data to support that the weight and force are interferred upon , that DOES create the difference in draw. That does make sense! So thanks for clarifying.

                  ~~Is it true, Is it kind,Is it necessary. ~~~

                  christmas holly jolly numbers: 255,303,6911, 474,477 silver:47,gold:79.

                    RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
                    mid-Ohio
                    United States
                    Member #9
                    March 24, 2001
                    19831 Posts
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                    Posted: August 8, 2009, 2:14 pm - IP Logged

                    Since the outcomes of the drawings are random, the only constants a player should expect are the number of balls in the mix and the number of balls drawn.

                     * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
                       
                                 Evil Looking       

                      BobP's avatar - bobp avatar.png
                      Dump Water Florida
                      United States
                      Member #380
                      June 5, 2002
                      3106 Posts
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                      Posted: August 9, 2009, 2:43 am - IP Logged

                      My post was suggesting an answer based on personal research into the FL6/53 game as to why some balls are drawn more often for the life of a ballset collection only to suddenly change their rate of draws when the old ballset collection is destroyed and replaced with new.

                      IMHO some balls are bouncier than other, they fly around the chamber faster, pass the draw tube more often and are thus in a position to be drawn more often.

                      Random drawings are a process that takes place pretty much the same way for each draw.  The draws build on each other whether called independent or not, they are a series of events over a session.

                      Anyone can print out the numbers in their order of frequency over the last 100 draws, starting 100 draws back and check the frequency for each draw and circle the winning numbers. 

                      Taking the trouble to work this out is its own reward as one quickly sees how the winning numbers are distributed across the frequency range.  How many numbers come from each group again and again.  How rarely a draw comes from the hottest 6 or 9 or 12 or 18 numbers or from hot and cold numbers.

                      BobP

                        eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
                        LAS VEGAS
                        United States
                        Member #47729
                        November 22, 2006
                        4508 Posts
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                        Posted: August 15, 2009, 6:20 pm - IP Logged

                        What can you do? Either keep playing or don't.

                        The whole thing stinks. It really doesn't matter if they rotate the balls and machines 47 times and hour, for 10 hours before the draw. The moment they do it once, without telling the player the new positions, it's pretty much hard to predict. The history of the tubes is lost.

                        Perhaps, that overdue number you were waiting 2 months for came out in the pretest, and you never even knew it cause they didn't tell you. Pathetic.

                        People are so worried about computerized and the possible hacking. I think throwing off the history of the tubes is just as bad.

                        In actuality, the ball machines are much worse off because there is no doubt that throwing off the history of the tubes is done everyday. But with computerized, there is some doubt that  ALL of the computerized games are rigged. I'm sure most sane folks realize that only a handful maybe rigged, but not all.

                        The proof lies in the following example. If you have just one tube and that tube has 40 or 50 draws with no number 3 showing, its overdue. I don't care about all the theories out there, that number will come out very soon. It's the law of averages at work.




                        joker, et al-

                        Pathetic is an understatement.....

                        "The moment they do it once, without telling the player the new positions, it's pretty much hard to predict." ~j

                        OPERATOR'S INTENTION-

                        The main reason this is done is to affect the outcome otherwise why all this effort ??? Every time a game operators changes something it's usually for their bnefit and adversely affects the players and it's called manipulation, especially in past performances as joker says and reasons most of our predictions based on past games fail.

                        In brief, in casinos, countermeasures are rampant against advantage or any consistentley winning players, some subtle & some overt-

                        Now having said that, for those reasonably close to a casino, the live Keno ball game with it's visible single machine ball operation is really a better choice with the payout & odds especially for past performance players. Additionally, the  player can usually request a computer journal print out of up to 1000 past games listing the number outcomes in their actual order.

                         

                        Following the little white bouncing ball >>>>>>

                        EddessaKnight Smile