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Fingers and Toes, Here We Go!

Topic closed. 16 replies. Last post 6 years ago by RL-RANDOMLOGIC.

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Posted: February 10, 2011, 6:05 pm - IP Logged

Fingers and Toes, Here We Go!

Number systems adopted by people over the centuries have been based most often on the number of fingers and toes humans have evolved, but not all.  Notable exceptions are the modern ones based on binary digits which are useful in the world of on/off conditions in electronic computers.  For computational efficiency, before computers, a base Twelve system would have been a better choice for us than Ten. This article discusses the Base Twelve or Duodecimal system as well as the peoples who have and still use it.  If you're interested, you can find similar information on other systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal

"Languages using duodecimal number systems are uncommon. Languages in the Nigerian Middle Belt such as Janji, Gbiri-Niragu (Kahugu), the Nimbia dialect of Gwandara[1]; the Chepang language of Nepal[2] and the Mahl language of Minicoy Island in India are known to use duodecimal numerals. In fiction, J. R. R. Tolkien's Elvish languages used duodecimal."

For purposes of discussion, I've adopted the tradition of using our familiar base TEN numerals, [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9] to represent the same number of objects for all the bases listed, except for the Roman System. For non-Roman bases larger than TEN, I will use [A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K] to count beyond 9 with a single digit.  Also, when there is a possibility of confusion, I will append the BASE of a number in parenthesis (using base TEN digits.)

The (5,39(10)) Lotto is preferred by many of the proponents of lottery selection systems based on the counting of digits.  Therefore, I've compiled a table of what the Labels for each of the 39(10) objects in this game would look like in systems of various BASES.

BASE   BASE     BASE  BASE   BASE   BASE     BASE   ROMAN
TEN    TWO      FOUR  EIGHT TWELVE SIXTEEN *TWENTY NUMERALS

01     000001     001     01     01      01       01      I
02     000010     002     02     02      02       02      II
03     000011     003     03     03      03       03      III
04     000100     010     04     04      04       04      IV
05     000101     011     05     05      05       05      V
06     000110     012     06     06      06       06      VI
07     000111     013     07     07      07       07      VII
08     001000     020     10     08      08       08      VIII
09     001001     021     11     09      09       09      IX
10     001010     022     12     0A      0A       0A      X
11     001011     023     13     0B      0B       0B      XI
12     001100     030     14     10      0C       0C      XII
13     001101     031     15     11      0D       0D      XIII
14     001110     032     16     12      0E       0E      XIV
15     001111     033     17     13      0F       0F      XV
16     010000     100     20     14      10       0G      XVI
17     010001     101     21     15      11       0H      XVII
18     010010     102     22     16      12       0J      XVIII
19     010011     103     23     17      13       0K      XIX
20     010100     110     24     18      14       10      XX
21     010101     111     25     19      15       11      XXI
22     010110     112     26     1A      16       12      XXII
23     010111     113     27     1B      17       13      XXIII
24     011000     120     30     20      18       14      XXIV
25     011001     121     31     21      19       15      XXV
26     011010     122     32     22      1A       16      XXVI
27     011011     123     33     23      1B       17      XXVII
28     011100     130     34     24      1C       18      XXVIII
29     011101     131     35     25      1D       19      XXIX
30     011110     132     36     26      1E       1A      XXX
31     011111     133     37     27      1F       1B      XXXI
32     100000     200     40     28      20       1C      XXXII
33     100001     201     41     29      21       1D      XXXIII
34     100010     202     42     2A      22       1E      XXXIV
35     100011     203     43     2B      23       1F      XXXV
36     100100     210     44     30      24       1G      XXXVI
37     100101     211     45     31      25       1H      XXXVII
38     100110     212     46     32      26       1J      XXXVIII
39     100111     213     47     33      27       1K      XXXIX

* Yup'ik of South Alaska.

--------------------------
I think this is enough to digest for the time being.  I hope you will ask yourself questions regarding what the information above should indicate to anyone counting digits to choose lottery numbers.  Keep in mind that the ping pong balls will NOT be aware of what base was used to prepare their label, and consequently, will be clueless regarding what digits they are wearing!  Another pertinent question might be, "How will the distribution of frequency counts of digits change for the 575757(10) combinations of 5?"  This is important, as digit selection proponents select and reject sets based on this distribution.

Remember, if we had evolved with 3 or 4 fingers, we very likely would be using a 6, 8, or 12(10) based number system today, rather than TEN!  Smile

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    Kentucky
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    Posted: February 12, 2011, 11:02 am - IP Logged

    My, what an interesting topic; I have several questions.

    What is the Roman Numeral for zero for all the pick-3 and pick-4 players?

    When counting on your toes, do you start with your left foot "little to bigger" and and reverse it on the right foot?

    Have you ever got bored counting on your toes and played "this little piggy went to market"?

    Does big toe + little toe = "wee wee wee, all the way home"?

    Ever tickled yourself counting with your toes?

    Ever thought about having the digits tattooed on your toes making it easier for you to count?

      RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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      Posted: February 12, 2011, 3:55 pm - IP Logged

      My, what an interesting topic; I have several questions.

      What is the Roman Numeral for zero for all the pick-3 and pick-4 players?

      When counting on your toes, do you start with your left foot "little to bigger" and and reverse it on the right foot?

      Have you ever got bored counting on your toes and played "this little piggy went to market"?

      Does big toe + little toe = "wee wee wee, all the way home"?

      Ever tickled yourself counting with your toes?

      Ever thought about having the digits tattooed on your toes making it easier for you to count?

      Stack47

      I think since we have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs I now know the science behind computer developement.

      Eight fingers became digits which had two states closed or open. When the thumb is pressed to one

      of the fingers then it is a digit high or 1 and when not touching it is open or a digit 0.  This means that

      256 different finger to thumb combinations can be made.  Now all we would need is a list or code for

      each of the combinations, something like ASCII or some other variant would do nicely.  The next step

      would be to find a mate and BAM, now we have two sets of 8 or 16-bits but not finished yet, what about

      the kids,  Hmmmmm.  8, 16, 32, 64, 128 wow, this could be unlimited.   Maybe it's just like the futurama

      episode where God told Bender, "when you do things right, no one will ever know you had anything to

      do with it."

      RL

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        Posted: February 12, 2011, 6:01 pm - IP Logged

        Stack47

        I think since we have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs I now know the science behind computer developement.

        Eight fingers became digits which had two states closed or open. When the thumb is pressed to one

        of the fingers then it is a digit high or 1 and when not touching it is open or a digit 0.  This means that

        256 different finger to thumb combinations can be made.  Now all we would need is a list or code for

        each of the combinations, something like ASCII or some other variant would do nicely.  The next step

        would be to find a mate and BAM, now we have two sets of 8 or 16-bits but not finished yet, what about

        the kids,  Hmmmmm.  8, 16, 32, 64, 128 wow, this could be unlimited.   Maybe it's just like the futurama

        episode where God told Bender, "when you do things right, no one will ever know you had anything to

        do with it."

        RL

        RL,

        Years ago I read about a way we could use our thumbs and fingers (or toes if someone's big toe was like a thumb) for multiplication and division, but it wasn't much different than memorizing the "times tables" back in grade school that we already knew.

        It sure was nice of Jimmy to show us what the numbers would look like in 5/39 game using other number systems and I can't wait until I read where somebody says "Had XXXVIII been drawn instead of XXXVII, I would have won the jackpot!".


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          Posted: February 12, 2011, 7:10 pm - IP Logged

          When they stop laughing, perhaps Stack47 and RL-RANDOMLOGIC can tell us what sort of adjustments they would propose to their Digit Based selection system if they were forced to play in a place where the balls were LABELED in one of these other BASES.  Maybe, if they don't "TELL" the balls about their new labels, the balls could be tricked into performing just as they always have, allowing these 2 comedians to continue to make tons of money.  Who knows, maybe one of these other ways of counting [with different sets of digits] might lead them to a new system, one that allows them to get even richer than they already are!

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            Posted: February 13, 2011, 12:42 pm - IP Logged

            "if they were forced to play in a place where the balls were LABELED in one of these other BASES."

            The lotteries have used the same number base for over 30 years and it works just fine for the lotteries and the players. I believe you're confusing lottery games with the Keno games in played in Reno, Nevada which has a large Chinese population. Many casinos placed the Chinese characters that represented each number on their Keno boards and maybe one or two casinos still does. It's possible Caesar's Palace toyed with the idea of using Roman Numerals on their Keno board too.

            While it's a fact there are other number bases, there is no evidence any lottery is planing on using one. For the time being feel free to create your own fantasy lottery, make fantasy bets like you did with the Challenges, and keep fantasy statistics. Who knows, it's possible someday someone might agree with with you and say what you're doing is worthwhile.

            In the mean time the rest of us will continue to yawn or laugh.


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              Posted: February 13, 2011, 12:51 pm - IP Logged

              "if they were forced to play in a place where the balls were LABELED in one of these other BASES."

              The lotteries have used the same number base for over 30 years and it works just fine for the lotteries and the players. I believe you're confusing lottery games with the Keno games in played in Reno, Nevada which has a large Chinese population. Many casinos placed the Chinese characters that represented each number on their Keno boards and maybe one or two casinos still does. It's possible Caesar's Palace toyed with the idea of using Roman Numerals on their Keno board too.

              While it's a fact there are other number bases, there is no evidence any lottery is planing on using one. For the time being feel free to create your own fantasy lottery, make fantasy bets like you did with the Challenges, and keep fantasy statistics. Who knows, it's possible someday someone might agree with with you and say what you're doing is worthwhile.

              In the mean time the rest of us will continue to yawn or laugh.

              You completely missed the point of the post that you commented on here.  Earlier, you revealed your ignorance of the underlying purpose of the Thread.

              "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

              Abraham Lincoln (from Solomon's Proverbs)

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                Posted: February 14, 2011, 11:44 am - IP Logged

                You completely missed the point of the post that you commented on here.  Earlier, you revealed your ignorance of the underlying purpose of the Thread.

                "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

                Abraham Lincoln (from Solomon's Proverbs)

                "if they were forced to play in a place where the balls were LABELED in one of these other BASES."

                Almost every one of your topics starts off with an "IF" and then you go on and on as if it was a fact. "IF" all the Challenge players waged $3168 two or four times a week for a year or "IF" someone played the same number in every PA pick-3 drawing for over 30 years are prime examples. I can understand discussing something that is possible, but you start topics about things that are unrealistic nonsense.

                You should have taken Abe Lincoln's advice before answering a question about SAS.

                "SAS isn't necessary.  The simple, surefire way to ensure a jackpot win is to convince the lottery in question to remove all the balls from the machine which are NOT on your ticket before they start the spin!"


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                  Posted: February 15, 2011, 10:52 pm - IP Logged

                  Stack47 said, "You should have taken Abe Lincoln's advice before answering a question about SAS."

                  Because I said, "SAS isn't necessary.  The simple, surefire way to ensure a jackpot win is to convince the lottery in question to remove all the balls from the machine which are NOT on your ticket before they start the spin!"

                  Stack47, RL-RANDOMLOGIC, and RJOh should look up the meanings of Irony, Metaphor, and Sarcasm.

                  They miss a lot.


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                    Posted: February 17, 2011, 1:25 pm - IP Logged
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                      Posted: February 18, 2011, 5:44 am - IP Logged

                      "What is the Roman Numeral for zero for all the pick-3 and pick-4 players?"

                      The Romans didn't have a "numeral" for zero, but instead used the Latin nulla, meaning "nothing". That allowed for counting how many toes you had even after a gruesome chariot accident, but mathematically it's very different than zero. As a result their pick III game had odds of I in DCCXXIV, while pick IV was I in MMMMM      MDLXI.

                      "When counting on your toes, do you start with your left foot "little to bigger" and and reverse it on the right foot?"

                      Most people start with the little toe of the left foot and continue straight across. Semitic peoples generally start with the little toe on the right foot. A few people get confused when their legs are crossed.

                      "Have you ever got bored counting on your toes and played "this little piggy went to market"?"

                      I don't get bored counting anything up to 10. Sometimes when I count higher I get stuck at 11 but I never find it boring.

                      "Ever thought about having the digits tattooed on your toes making it easier for you to count?"

                      I expect some people would find that advantageous, but I've memorized all the numbers up to infinity-1.

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                        Posted: February 18, 2011, 5:47 am - IP Logged

                        You completely missed the point of the post that you commented on here.  Earlier, you revealed your ignorance of the underlying purpose of the Thread.

                        "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

                        Abraham Lincoln (from Solomon's Proverbs)

                        I've always been surprised how many people think that if the winning combination is 1,3,5,7,9  +11  they came oh so close if they played 1,2,3,4,6 +12. I figure they might  understand intuitively if the balls were labeled Bob, Bill, Ernie, George, etc, but could still be easily confused if the balls were labeled Betty, Barney, Wilma, Fred, Ethel, Lucy and Ricky. Still, that doesn't confuse them nearly as much as when you tell them that 1+1 =10.

                        FWIW, the Romans used duodecimal for fractions.

                          time*treat's avatar - radar

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                          Posted: February 18, 2011, 10:57 am - IP Logged

                          I'm gonna bet on Betty. Wink

                          In neo-conned Amerika, bank robs you.
                          Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be the name of a convenience store, not a govnoment agency.


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                            Posted: February 18, 2011, 1:15 pm - IP Logged

                            I've always been surprised how many people think that if the winning combination is 1,3,5,7,9  +11  they came oh so close if they played 1,2,3,4,6 +12. I figure they might  understand intuitively if the balls were labeled Bob, Bill, Ernie, George, etc, but could still be easily confused if the balls were labeled Betty, Barney, Wilma, Fred, Ethel, Lucy and Ricky. Still, that doesn't confuse them nearly as much as when you tell them that 1+1 =10.

                            FWIW, the Romans used duodecimal for fractions.

                            Thanks Floyd.  I love your humorous approach!  You will probably enlighten more people than I do with mine.  Anyway, it's reassuring to know there are others here who enjoy playing the lottery while at the same time completely understanding the math and psychology behind it.   After they examine the 575757(ten) possible sets of the (5,39)(ten) lotto,  it would be interesting to see what the digit counters will do with the distributions of the twenty digits of the Yup'iks and the 3 the Romans used to count.  Alas, we'll probably never know, as their extreme culturocentrism will undoubtedly keep them from even dreaming of a world without 0-9.

                            But who knows, they may even find winning systems based on Betty and Barney!  Smile

                              RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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                              Posted: February 18, 2011, 10:59 pm - IP Logged

                              Thanks Floyd.  I love your humorous approach!  You will probably enlighten more people than I do with mine.  Anyway, it's reassuring to know there are others here who enjoy playing the lottery while at the same time completely understanding the math and psychology behind it.   After they examine the 575757(ten) possible sets of the (5,39)(ten) lotto,  it would be interesting to see what the digit counters will do with the distributions of the twenty digits of the Yup'iks and the 3 the Romans used to count.  Alas, we'll probably never know, as their extreme culturocentrism will undoubtedly keep them from even dreaming of a world without 0-9.

                              But who knows, they may even find winning systems based on Betty and Barney!  Smile

                              jimmy

                              WOW!

                              Anyway, it's reassuring to know there are others here who enjoy playing the lottery while at the same time completely understanding the math and psychology behind it.

                              I knew you had a big head but this would be funny if it was not so sad. I would think you should have used

                              the phrase "incompletely and totally misunderstand"  when speaking of yourself.

                              RL