Iran, Islamic Republic of Member #107812 March 15, 2011 15 Posts Offline

Posted: April 15, 2011, 3:10 pm - IP Logged

i have seen gail howards wheeling system that you choose 25 numbers and then system generates you bunch of numbers.i wonder what is really behind this wheeling system and which mathematical method is it?

United States Member #93947 July 10, 2010 2180 Posts Offline

Posted: April 15, 2011, 11:14 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by lucky-luke on April 15, 2011

i have seen gail howards wheeling system that you choose 25 numbers and then system generates you bunch of numbers.i wonder what is really behind this wheeling system and which mathematical method is it?

In general, wheeling systems help you generate all combinations of a subset of the available numbers. The theory is that IF you can eliminate enough of the possibilities, by whatever means, you can then be assured of a win by betting on all combinations of what you have left.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7295 Posts Offline

Posted: April 16, 2011, 11:24 am - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by lucky-luke on April 15, 2011

i have seen gail howards wheeling system that you choose 25 numbers and then system generates you bunch of numbers.i wonder what is really behind this wheeling system and which mathematical method is it?

A 25 number wheel is all the possible combinations found using those 25 numbers; 53,130 combos in pick-5 games and 177,100 in pick-6. From there you can use filters like sums, high/low, even/odd, decades, final digits, root sums, positional limits, etc.

Another way to use the wheel is to abbreviated the full pick-5 wheel by using the combos that will match 2, 3, or 4 numbers when 2, 3, 4, or 5 of the 25 numbers you choose are drawn. The same can be done with full pick-6 wheels. Before deciding on any abbreviated wheel, be aware that some can function exactly as intended but still won't cover the cost of playing.

One of members, BobP has an excellent explanation of wheels on his Lotto-Logic website.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7295 Posts Offline

Posted: April 16, 2011, 12:06 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by jimmy4164 on April 15, 2011

In general, wheeling systems help you generate all combinations of a subset of the available numbers. The theory is that IF you can eliminate enough of the possibilities, by whatever means, you can then be assured of a win by betting on all combinations of what you have left.

It's a fact, not theory because any "if 5" or "if 6" abbreviated wheel using all the numbers is mathematically designed to produce whatever the win guarantee is. A 2 if 5 of 39 numbers will always have at least one 2 number match in any 5/39 game. All abbreviated "if" wheels will guarantee a match when the designated amount of numbers is matched unless there is flaw in the wheel. The same is true when all the filters are passed in full wheel.

It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory.

However I do agree with your big "if" because there is no guarantee of matching the designated amount of numbers using less that all the numbers or all the filters will pass.

United States Member #93947 July 10, 2010 2180 Posts Offline

Posted: April 16, 2011, 2:48 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 16, 2011

It's a fact, not theory because any "if 5" or "if 6" abbreviated wheel using all the numbers is mathematically designed to produce whatever the win guarantee is. A 2 if 5 of 39 numbers will always have at least one 2 number match in any 5/39 game. All abbreviated "if" wheels will guarantee a match when the designated amount of numbers is matched unless there is flaw in the wheel. The same is true when all the filters are passed in full wheel.

It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory.

However I do agree with your big "if" because there is no guarantee of matching the designated amount of numbers using less that all the numbers or all the filters will pass.

"It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory."

How so?

Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?

Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?

Iran, Islamic Republic of Member #107812 March 15, 2011 15 Posts Offline

Posted: April 16, 2011, 6:36 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 16, 2011

A 25 number wheel is all the possible combinations found using those 25 numbers; 53,130 combos in pick-5 games and 177,100 in pick-6. From there you can use filters like sums, high/low, even/odd, decades, final digits, root sums, positional limits, etc.

Another way to use the wheel is to abbreviated the full pick-5 wheel by using the combos that will match 2, 3, or 4 numbers when 2, 3, 4, or 5 of the 25 numbers you choose are drawn. The same can be done with full pick-6 wheels. Before deciding on any abbreviated wheel, be aware that some can function exactly as intended but still won't cover the cost of playing.

One of members, BobP has an excellent explanation of wheels on his Lotto-Logic website.

thanks a lot stack.how can i get this lotto-logic website of this member?can you give it?i have some problem with some of your explanation about using filter.what is sum,high/low,final digest,root sum,positional limits,20's?

"Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?"

Let's look at a 3 if 4 abbreviated pick-5 wheel.

When 4 of the drawn numbers are matched, the wheel guarantees at least one 3 number match. A balanced wheel where each of the numbers are entered into the wheel the same number of times can yield up to four 3 number matches. And since it matched 4 of the drawn numbers, on some wheels it's possible to have two to four 4 number matches.

My experience is with Ohio's Rolling Cash 5 where 2, 3, and 4 number matches pay $1, $10, and $300 respectively. I'd be playing the wheel to match 4 numbers to get at least a guaranteed $10 and a possible $40 or over $300 and a possible $1200 on a $12 bet.

If I was playing in the Challenges and wanted to play my picks, I'd use a 3 if 4 of 12 numbers balanced wheel with 12 lines. Each of the 12 numbers I choose appears in that wheel 5 times. The 4 bonus numbers can be used 3 times each. Using the same wheel playing pick-5 games like RC5 is a better bet because the secondary prizes are much higher without matching a bonus number, matching 2 numbers pays nothing in MM and PB, and the amount of possible numbers drawn is at least 43% higher than in 5/39 game.

As an example let's see what our buddy Rdgrnr could have done using his MM Challenge numbers on that wheel. Since "only" 3 of his numbers matched, there is no 3 match guarantee. The winning numbers where 22-23-33-39-48 + bonus number 29

Winning $16 on a $12 bet is not much to brag about, but it's huge considering the fact the numbers failed to meet the wheel guarantee. Had 11 been drawn, the numbers would have matched wheel guarantee (at least one 3 number match) and exceeded it times 4. Had 17, 35, 38, or 39 been drawn, one 4 number match plus three 3 number matches. Drawing 51 would produce four 4 numbers matches.

If you notice 11-15-18-34 would have produced four 4 number matches and any 3 produces four 3 number matches. Personally I think it's difficult enough matching 3 only using 12 out of 56 numbers, let alone 4. And because I believe matching the bonus number is key in MM and PB, this type of wheel would get better results for me in a 5/39 game.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7295 Posts Offline

Posted: April 16, 2011, 7:12 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by lucky-luke on April 16, 2011

thanks a lot stack.how can i get this lotto-logic website of this member?can you give it?i have some problem with some of your explanation about using filter.what is sum,high/low,final digest,root sum,positional limits,20's?

Don't know if you can still get the book for $2.50, but it is well worth the $5 for anyone interested in fun and easier ways to play the games they're playing. And for any serious systems players too. (good read for QP players too)

United States Member #93947 July 10, 2010 2180 Posts Offline

Posted: April 16, 2011, 11:35 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 16, 2011

"Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?"

Let's look at a 3 if 4 abbreviated pick-5 wheel.

When 4 of the drawn numbers are matched, the wheel guarantees at least one 3 number match. A balanced wheel where each of the numbers are entered into the wheel the same number of times can yield up to four 3 number matches. And since it matched 4 of the drawn numbers, on some wheels it's possible to have two to four 4 number matches.

My experience is with Ohio's Rolling Cash 5 where 2, 3, and 4 number matches pay $1, $10, and $300 respectively. I'd be playing the wheel to match 4 numbers to get at least a guaranteed $10 and a possible $40 or over $300 and a possible $1200 on a $12 bet.

If I was playing in the Challenges and wanted to play my picks, I'd use a 3 if 4 of 12 numbers balanced wheel with 12 lines. Each of the 12 numbers I choose appears in that wheel 5 times. The 4 bonus numbers can be used 3 times each. Using the same wheel playing pick-5 games like RC5 is a better bet because the secondary prizes are much higher without matching a bonus number, matching 2 numbers pays nothing in MM and PB, and the amount of possible numbers drawn is at least 43% higher than in 5/39 game.

As an example let's see what our buddy Rdgrnr could have done using his MM Challenge numbers on that wheel. Since "only" 3 of his numbers matched, there is no 3 match guarantee. The winning numbers where 22-23-33-39-48 + bonus number 29

Winning $16 on a $12 bet is not much to brag about, but it's huge considering the fact the numbers failed to meet the wheel guarantee. Had 11 been drawn, the numbers would have matched wheel guarantee (at least one 3 number match) and exceeded it times 4. Had 17, 35, 38, or 39 been drawn, one 4 number match plus three 3 number matches. Drawing 51 would produce four 4 numbers matches.

If you notice 11-15-18-34 would have produced four 4 number matches and any 3 produces four 3 number matches. Personally I think it's difficult enough matching 3 only using 12 out of 56 numbers, let alone 4. And because I believe matching the bonus number is key in MM and PB, this type of wheel would get better results for me in a 5/39 game.

*congrats to rdgrnr for matching 3 numbers!

All of this completely ignores the fact that no matter what you do, your $Winnings are directly proportional to the number of tickets you purchase, NOT to the way you choose your numbers. Your analyses are littered with the words, "IF," "COULD,",and "WOULD." All of your words will prove nothing unless you back them up with a mathematical proof, a backtest, or a simulation.

Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?

Denver, Co United States Member #103046 December 29, 2010 546 Posts Offline

Posted: April 17, 2011, 3:55 pm - IP Logged

lucky-luke, since you are already familiar with Gail Howard, you might want to get her book 'Lottery Master Guide'. She explains sums, high/low/ odd/even, etc, and she also explains 'wheeling'. She does a lot of cross-promotion of her other product and books, but you can ignore that. Much of what she teaches can be done using pen and paper.

Give someone a fish and feed them for a day. Teach them to use the internet and they won't bother you for weeks.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7295 Posts Offline

Posted: April 17, 2011, 8:46 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by jimmy4164 on April 16, 2011

All of this completely ignores the fact that no matter what you do, your $Winnings are directly proportional to the number of tickets you purchase, NOT to the way you choose your numbers. Your analyses are littered with the words, "IF," "COULD,",and "WOULD." All of your words will prove nothing unless you back them up with a mathematical proof, a backtest, or a simulation.

Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?

"All of this completely ignores the fact that no matter what you do, your $Winnings are directly proportional to the number of tickets you purchase, NOT to the way you choose your numbers."

Where you napping when I clearly said my choice of game for using a 3 if 4 wheel was Ohio's RC5 or when I clearly showed using that wheel, 12 $1 tickets can show a net profit of $28 WITHOUT matching the wheel's mathematical guarantee?

Don't pretend you don't know how much to expect purchasing any old 12 tickets because that has been one of your battle cries for months. Can you honestly say by matching any 4 numbers scattered throughout your coveted QPs that you are guaranteed to match at least 3 numbers on one line with several 2 matches, probably a 4 number match or at least one more 3 number match, and a possible FOUR 4 number matches?

"Your analyses are littered with the words, "IF," "COULD,",and "WOULD."

Because you are obviously offended by the use of those words, you ought to be attacking the thousands of posts about how players "CAN"and "WILL" spend their winnings "IF" they win the jackpot. Throw in the hundreds of "cash" versus "annuity", "how long should I wait before validating MY winning jackpot ticket", or "clown outfit versus Groucho glasses disguises" posts, you'll have a full time job.

"Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?"

I'm not a big fan of drama with drum rolls so I wait until after all the fan fair smoke is cleared to see if one method clobbered the other or the test was inconclusive. Bet you watched OJ's slow speed care chase through to the end sitting on pins and needles too.

United States Member #93947 July 10, 2010 2180 Posts Offline

Posted: April 17, 2011, 11:35 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 17, 2011

I suggested that you choose your battles wisely.

"All of this completely ignores the fact that no matter what you do, your $Winnings are directly proportional to the number of tickets you purchase, NOT to the way you choose your numbers."

Where you napping when I clearly said my choice of game for using a 3 if 4 wheel was Ohio's RC5 or when I clearly showed using that wheel, 12 $1 tickets can show a net profit of $28 WITHOUT matching the wheel's mathematical guarantee?

Don't pretend you don't know how much to expect purchasing any old 12 tickets because that has been one of your battle cries for months. Can you honestly say by matching any 4 numbers scattered throughout your coveted QPs that you are guaranteed to match at least 3 numbers on one line with several 2 matches, probably a 4 number match or at least one more 3 number match, and a possible FOUR 4 number matches?

"Your analyses are littered with the words, "IF," "COULD,",and "WOULD."

Because you are obviously offended by the use of those words, you ought to be attacking the thousands of posts about how players "CAN"and "WILL" spend their winnings "IF" they win the jackpot. Throw in the hundreds of "cash" versus "annuity", "how long should I wait before validating MY winning jackpot ticket", or "clown outfit versus Groucho glasses disguises" posts, you'll have a full time job.

"Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?"

I'm not a big fan of drama with drum rolls so I wait until after all the fan fair smoke is cleared to see if one method clobbered the other or the test was inconclusive. Bet you watched OJ's slow speed care chase through to the end sitting on pins and needles too.

Why do you view this as a BATTLE?

Do my challenges of your belief system cause you such emotional turmoil that you must obsessively attack every attempt I make at introducing science to your world?

You've taken our exchange off onto a tangent by expounding on abbreviated wheels, etc., etc. It's all irrelavent. Here is where we were before you started talking details of combinations. I asked two SIMPLE questions, both answerable with one or two words, and you've yet to answer one of them.

You said,"It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory."

And I replied,

Q1: ...Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?

Q2: Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?"

A2 > This is an edit - I see you addressed this question. Given that it applies DIRECTLY to the issues we've been haggling over, it's hilarious that your response is so lame. There are simulation results of 150,000,000 draws of a Pick-3 and a (5,39) Lotto - what more do you need?

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7295 Posts Offline

Posted: April 18, 2011, 12:40 am - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by jimmy4164 on April 17, 2011

Why do you view this as a BATTLE?

Do my challenges of your belief system cause you such emotional turmoil that you must obsessively attack every attempt I make at introducing science to your world?

You've taken our exchange off onto a tangent by expounding on abbreviated wheels, etc., etc. It's all irrelavent. Here is where we were before you started talking details of combinations. I asked two SIMPLE questions, both answerable with one or two words, and you've yet to answer one of them.

You said,"It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory."

And I replied,

Q1: ...Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?

Q2: Have you noticed JADELottery's latest simulation runs in the Lottery Discussion Forum?"

A2 > This is an edit - I see you addressed this question. Given that it applies DIRECTLY to the issues we've been haggling over, it's hilarious that your response is so lame. There are simulation results of 150,000,000 draws of a Pick-3 and a (5,39) Lotto - what more do you need?

"You've taken our exchange off onto a tangent by expounding on abbreviated wheels, etc., etc. It's all irrelavent."

That makes twice tonight I snorted soft drink through my nose from laughing too hard.

Do you really need to phone a friend to ask the relevance of expounding on abbreviated wheels in a topic titled "What is wheeling system logic"?

"You said, "It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory."

I gave an example showing how a 3 if 4 wheel could match 4 numbers and have four 4 number matches. Did you miss where I said matching 3 numbers (the wheel's guarantee) pays $10 on Ohio's Rolling Cash 5 game and $300 for matching 4 numbers?

Q1: ...Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?"

The investment or wager as I like to call it, was made with the intention of matching at least 4 numbers knowing at the very least I can expect to break even by matching 4 numbers. And matching 4 numbers on just one line pays $300 which most people say is better than breaking even. Having four 4 numbers matches pays $1200. Since it's possible to collect $300, $600, or $1200 on a $12 bet, it's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee of at least one three number match that pays $10.

I've never called winning $1200 or even $300 on a $12 wager "small" so I thought that question was a mistake.

If you don't understand why "4" is the number of hits using a 3 if 4 abbreviated wheel, I suggest you get $2.50 out of your Piggy Bank and buy BobP's book. There is a chapter that explains why it can be any 4 of the 12 numbers used too.

United States Member #93947 July 10, 2010 2180 Posts Offline

Posted: April 18, 2011, 1:03 am - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 18, 2011

"You've taken our exchange off onto a tangent by expounding on abbreviated wheels, etc., etc. It's all irrelavent."

That makes twice tonight I snorted soft drink through my nose from laughing too hard.

Do you really need to phone a friend to ask the relevance of expounding on abbreviated wheels in a topic titled "What is wheeling system logic"?

"You said, "It's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee so that too is not just a theory."

I gave an example showing how a 3 if 4 wheel could match 4 numbers and have four 4 number matches. Did you miss where I said matching 3 numbers (the wheel's guarantee) pays $10 on Ohio's Rolling Cash 5 game and $300 for matching 4 numbers?

Q1: ...Are you talking about Dollar Return On Investment or Number of Hits, no matter how small?"

The investment or wager as I like to call it, was made with the intention of matching at least 4 numbers knowing at the very least I can expect to break even by matching 4 numbers. And matching 4 numbers on just one line pays $300 which most people say is better than breaking even. Having four 4 numbers matches pays $1200. Since it's possible to collect $300, $600, or $1200 on a $12 bet, it's possible to get more than the abbreviated wheel guarantee of at least one three number match that pays $10.

I've never called winning $1200 or even $300 on a $12 wager "small" so I thought that question was a mistake.

If you don't understand why "4" is the number of hits using a 3 if 4 abbreviated wheel, I suggest you get $2.50 out of your Piggy Bank and buy BobP's book. There is a chapter that explains why it can be any 4 of the 12 numbers used too.

Stack47,

I don't respond to your plethora of details because if what you are alluding to were true, at least one of the following would have happened:

1) The Ohio Rolling Cash 5 would have changed it's payout structure...

2) You would have disappeared from LotteryPost because you would have been too busy buying and cashing Ohio Rolling Cash 5 Tickets.

Since neither of these events seems to have occurred, or is imminent, I glaze over as the details stream by.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7295 Posts Offline

Posted: April 19, 2011, 6:46 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by jimmy4164 on April 18, 2011

Stack47,

I don't respond to your plethora of details because if what you are alluding to were true, at least one of the following would have happened:

1) The Ohio Rolling Cash 5 would have changed it's payout structure...

2) You would have disappeared from LotteryPost because you would have been too busy buying and cashing Ohio Rolling Cash 5 Tickets.

Since neither of these events seems to have occurred, or is imminent, I glaze over as the details stream by.

--Jimmy4164

Jimmy,

I replied to Luke's question "what is wheeling logic" and explained some logic about wheels in general and made no claim to Luke or anyone about how to chose the numbers. Just the fact you chose an "occasional" $300 to $1200 payoff as a lottery breaking win, proves without a doubt your ignorance of lottery games.

Your ignorance of wheels notwithstanding, does not give you a free ride to insinuate I was suggesting anyone could win enough money by "occasionally" matching 4 numbers to close down the game.

And it's not the first time your remarks were based on ignorance either; you insinuated that Bob was guaranteeing people would win Millions because of his book title. Ignorant insinuations can only go so far and at that point, you'll be branded a liar.