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Hoosier Lottery: Den of Thieves...Prev TopicNext Topic
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For Immediate Release: 7/22/2004
<STYLE>
July 22, 2004
STATE HITS JACKPOT WITH RECORD LOTTERY SALES YEAR
Indianapolis Indiana citizens hit the jackpot as the Hoosier Lottery shattered sales records in fiscal year 2004 (FY04) with $734 million in total sales (up 10% from FY03) and $422 million in scratch-off ticket sales (up 9.3% from FY03). These record revenues, combined with a significant reduction in expenses, fueled a remarkable 13.5% ($24 million) increase in profits, totaling nearly $200 million.
Fiscal year 2004 was an outstanding year for the Hoosier Lottery, stated Jack Ross, director of the Hoosier Lottery. Implementation of a sound scratch-off ticket strategy, prudent management of expenses, several large jackpots and, most importantly, hard work by our employees produced almost $200 million for our shareholders the people of Indiana.
The largest categorical cut in expenses was associated with the Lotterys TV game show which produced a dramatic $6.2 million reduction in expenses, a 47% decrease. Other cost reductions included $1 million savings in telecommunications expense and an additional $1 million savings in scratch-off ticket printing costs.
The $200 million earned for the state will help pay teacher, police and firefighter pensions, reduce auto excise taxes and pay for other worthwhile projects determined by the General Assembly. Since its inception in 1989, the Lottery has raised a total of $2.4 billion for Hoosiers.
In addition to producing $200 million in profits in FY04, the Hoosier Lottery also paid a total of $50 million in sales commissions to 4200 retailers spread throughout every Indiana county. This $50 million helps pay wages to Hoosier employees, contributes to the success of these businesses and has a positive impact on the Indiana economy.
When you consider our profits, retailer commissions, vendor payments and state taxes paid by winners, the Hoosier Lottery has a huge economic impact on the state, Ross said.
In FY04, the Lottery withheld a total of $5.6 million in state taxes from its winners.
Winning lottery prizes is only part of the reward with the Hoosier Lottery, Ross continued. When Hoosiers play the Lottery, every citizen of the state wins.
Well, this just keeps getting better and better.
What they don't say in this press release is that they obtained those record sales figures by robbing their players.
I was not even aware that the state collects taxes on players' winnings. I know of no other state that does this.
So, out of $734M in sales, they paid out $20M in prizes, and then collected $5.6M, of that amount in state taxes (Indiana withholds 28% rather than the normal 25%).
To carry it further, winners were allowed to keep $14.4M of their winnings in this past fiscal year, so for all games combined, scratch-offs, two Pick-3 games, two Pick-4 games, two Pick-5 games, the Hoosier Lotto and Powerball sales, they paid out an average of $39,452.05/ day to the six million people who live here, or .006 cents per capita per day. Suddenly their figures aren't that impressive.
Winning lottery prizes is only part of the reward with the Hoosier Lottery, Ross continued. When Hoosiers play the Lottery, every citizen of the state wins.
Hmmm... Whatever will I do with my .006 cents...???
Isn't there someone out there who can help with this???
Come, Pinky; we must prepare for tomorrow night...
Jim
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Jim I think all but a few states require to pay state and federal taxes on any winnings over $600.00 this information can be found on most state lottery websites. As for Hoosiers not winning any money nobody forces them to play and apparently they cant pick winning numbers it's not the lottery's fault that people don't win. Anybody that plays the lottery and wins can conceder themselves among the few that do. Everybody cant play and win every day it's just not feasible.
Maryland has about 7 million people and generates a billion and a half $$$ sales per year. They disperse the money to the general fund and list on their website where the money goes. Beside what the players get. A large chunk of the profit goes into advertising. Commercials being the biggest drawback because they cost so much to produce. Then there are the signs and promotions they paste up everywhere around the town from busses to billboards. So much of their profit is liquidated. Then whatever is left over is used to secure bonds to pay for any large winnings. Then they invest the rest to try and keep everything solvent. Their is a lot more going on behind the scenes than the average citizen knows. Operating a state lottery is big business and in any big business there are going to be things happening to anger some people. Especially the losers. The winners are probably happy though because they received a large return for a small investment.
Big John says. You don't hit the number. The number hits you!!!!
I'm not Big John, I'm Four4me, Big John's a friend. -
I contributed about 6,
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Four4me:
You're correct when you say that Hoosiers don't know how to pick their numbers. You're also correct when you say that no one forces them to play. However, you couldn't be more wrong when you say that this is not the lottery's fault. It is entirely their fault.
By the same token, no one forces you to play in Maryland, either, but I'm assuming you do. Now, given that, would you be so confident in your proven abilities if you discovered tomorrow morning that your state decided to switch to an RNG four years ago and didn't bother to mention it to anyone? Would you be so quick with your figures when you found out that your state lottery commission downloaded their new RNG from a free internet webpage and, again, forgot to let the public know? What if you discovered that your state's two official draw machines (RNG's) were located three miles apart and connected via wireless network, and that one of those machines was stored and used at the location of one of the largest lottery vendors in the world (Scientific Games, Inc.)?
I understand that nobody can win everyday, but before you chide me like I'm some four-year-old who just doesn't get it, you might stop and think that I've spent the past year investigating this crooked lottery, and the evidence I've gathered cannot be refuted. I used their figures, from their annual reports, from their lottery officials and from their website.
Just like no one is forcing us to play, no one is forcing you to believe that the Hoosier Lottery is indeed corrupt, but you're not playing in Indiana, so you really have no concept of what we're facing. Your public officials, apparently, are competent and know how to manage a state budget. We enjoy no such luxury, as our entire electorate is indigenous to Indiana, and are therefore morons, by your criteria (and mine, oddly enough). You can ignore it, and even pretend that it isn't happening, and make yourself believe that people who live in Indiana are simply not as intelligent as the Mensa club who make up the population of Maryland which, by the way, is 5,458,000, and not seven million.
Also, you should know that most of my friends and I (with one single holdout), stopped playing Indiana's lottery games over a year ago when we uncovered what was really going on here. My point is that we're not all a bunch of hillbillies with a sixth grade education cipherin' numbers on tree bark. Why, shucks, I even went to an Indiana University visitor's day once so, yeah, I've been to college.
I've said it before; it's a fairly simple matter to predict winners in Indiana when you never buy a ticket here. If you experts are really as good as you think you are, come to Indiana and play for thirty days. I'm sure you'll have no problem financing your trip with all the money you'll win. Until you're willing to do that, I would consider it a personal favor if you didn't post to tell me how certain you are that this isn't happening in Indiana, because your state runs an honest game and, therefore, so do all the other states. If you don't live here, you really don't know the situation.
To the first person who decides to accept this challenge, I will personally put up an additional prize: I'll buy you a bus ticket to take you, and your horse, back to wherever you came from (if you're from Maryland, you should get the inference..).
Frankly, you really surprised me with this response, four4me. I would have expected this reaction from a new member, but not from someone who has read most, if not all of my posts on this subject. Todd even posted the newspaper article that reflected the efforts and concerns of LosingJeff and I. If that won't sway your opinion, nothing will.
Come, Pinky; we must prepare for tomorrow night...
Jim
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Jim somehow I knew I would invoke the response you gave I'm not going to get into a battle of wits over this with you. If you have a problem with Indiana's lottery you need to lodge a complaint with the attorney general. Lobby or get a petition going. Hire an attorney and fight the state. You posted something about your pitfalls with Hoosier's lottery and I commented. I'm not trying to belittle anyone. Pa has RNG on their midday game people win every day. They even post the amount of winners. It doesn't compare to their night drawings. They seem to have more winners at night than day. This could mean one of two things either people don't have time to get midday numbers. Or they don't like playing RNG's.
I don't like RNG's and if MD would switch to those I might give up playing pick 3/4. We Baltimorons have problems with our lottery also from time to time. And some people voice there complaints with the attorney general. Our lottery officials hold a public forum on Maryland public television to answer any questions people might have about lottery. Now to clear something up iv been playing the lottery here in MD and a couple other states when I travel around for about 34 yrs so I think I know my way around the lottery dilemma. I have seen them change games in the middle of the year for no apparent reason. They have changed the odds. Switched the way the games were played etc.etc. I don't think they are under any obligation to go public first and then reform. Because we Marylanders found out after the fact as well. Apparently your state is following suite and change the games to benefit the state which is what it was designed to do anyway.
After I typed my last post I went to the prediction pages here on lotto post to see if any of our posters were even remotely successful in posting winning numbers for Indiana and low and behold not many people have hit their even just for the fun of it. That is not to say it's impossible to hit a number their. For all it's worth I hope you find some solution to your state's lottery problem. I know if it bothered me like this I would be talking to some congressmen or senators and see if what they might be able to do to help. One thing for sure your going to need people to back you up on this. In order to get any changes made. I hope you have lots of supporters.
Big John says. You don't hit the number. The number hits you!!!!
I'm not Big John, I'm Four4me, Big John's a friend. -
All I can say is: Stupid is as stupid does.
Sure I can help you: Don't play!
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Four4me:
Have I become that predictible? To be honest, it really doesn't take much to set me off when it comes to this topic, and you have my apologies if I misunderstood your reply.
I contacted our attorney general. Imagine my surprise when his office replied and explained that if any wrongdoing were proven on the part of the Hoosier Lottery, he would be defending the crooked lottery officials.
This is what's so frustrating. I've written to everyone I can think of: elected officials, the FBI, newspaper editors, investigative reporters, TV news magazines, even Oprah Winfrey, MSNBC Investigates, Geraldo Rivera and Bill Curtiss (yes, I did). The problem is, this is so incredibly brazen, no one believes it could happen, so they just figure I'm a sore loser or a crackpot. In fact, I'm probably still slightly ahead of the game, since I won $11,800.00 over a year ago and I have $11,100.00 in losing tickets.
Anyway, I should point out once more for those of you who didn't bother to read my entire post, such as Zeno, that I stopped playing in Indiana when I found out for certain that the game was rigged.
I should also point out that they simply ignore the very laws that govern them. A state law requires the lottery to "inform the public of future and potential features affecting the operation of lottery games." This, obviously, was not done. Ever. Another state law requires them to televise a live drawing for all games involving a drawing. They just up and decided this was too expensive, and that they could save a lot of money by denying the public any view into their secret society. Initially, of course, they told our local ABC affiliate that they couldn't renew their broadcast contract because their satellite communications equipment was not compatible with the new RNG format. I'm not kidding; that comes straight from their programming coordinator, who attended the meeting. When LosingJeff and I went to headquarters last May, we asked their CPA, Joe Pfister, "What's the difference whether you point a TV camera at a computer or four bins full of ping-pong balls?" He said, "Well, we really did it to save money." So they just don't do a live drawing. They are, and have been in violation of several state laws, and I'm convinced that if the FBI weren't so hung up on jurisdictional protocol, they could be prosecuted on at least two RICO predicates as well.
LosingJeff is doing all he can, but we're only two people. I was looking forward to witnessing the wrath of a state's entire population being unleashed upon the faux-elite; I wanted to watch their ivory tower crumble beneath them. What happened, for the most part, was that when people stopped to get their coffee and newspaper, they glanced at the article, shrugged and said, "Hmm...crooked lottery; give me five quick picks for tonight's drawing." Then they took the paper home and used it to train their puppy, line a birdcage or to wrap fish.
Somehow, somewhere, I'm going to find someone who can blow this wide open so people can see inside.
Come, Pinky; we must prepare for tomorrow night...
Jim
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That's right them calling you a sore looser is their easy out. I had my differences with our lottery games profits also. And when I approached some government officials they told me to forget about it. Cause their is no wrong doing in other words the state can do what it wants when it wants. And if you decide to oppose it/them you need followers. Since I was the only one well maybe not the only one wanting to know where the money goes or went. I was told it went into a general fund and dispensed accordingly. Yet the city and state is crying were broke we have no money for schools, teachers, police and fire personnel, road repair and the like. Yet they can afford multi million dollar ball players. Two new stadiums which were supposed to paid for with our tax dollars. Yet they continuously sell scratchers that benefit the stadium authority. Their should be a federal gaming official or committee that governs state lotteries but I don't know if there is one for individual states.
Big John says. You don't hit the number. The number hits you!!!!
I'm not Big John, I'm Four4me, Big John's a friend. -
Every lottery home page I've visited has some kind of percentage breakdown for each lottery dollar taken in. Usually 45% to 55% depending on state is earmarked for being returned as prizes. Usually about 15% goes toward opperating the lottery including advertising, payroll, offices, etc. What's left is the state's take.
The amount returned to players in scratch offs is known before they go on sale. Probability suggests what should be won in the Pick-3/4 games, if this is way off base there should be an inquiry to find out why. If the larger games rollover their prize money should be paid out dventually. If the prizes are capped where the lottery/state keeps the money, that's a recipe for trouble.
Just guessing, but if the usual tax withheld is 25% and they hold out 28% the state tax is likely 3% and the rest is federal. If Federal took 25% and the state 28% there would be a tax revolt. BobP -
Jim,
I have no way of knowing if the Hoosier Lottery is crooked. Would such a thing shock me? No, because when it comes to govt I'm a cynic. And the govt at all levels has made me one.
I often have my own doubts about our "honorable" state govt games here. We are the 3rd most-taxed state in the nation by all accounts. Yet we have an entire state population that is half the size of the city of Chicago. And since the doofuses in our govt always manage to run a deficit in spite of all the taxes, they (IMHO) would not be below stooping to do anything.
Having said that, I am suprised at one thing'; that you didn't realize that taxes are taken out of lottery winnings of over $600.00 ! There is an autoamtic deduction for the Fed of 30%, and an automatic deduction for the state you live in at their maximum rate (here, 7.5%) Therefore, here, anyway, anything over $600 means you know ahead of time that you will walk out with only 62.5% of your winnings.
This is why I have never understood the people who play (and win) Pick 3 and have, for instance, the winning combo bet multiple times on the same ticket. That is so FOOLISH ! If, for example, you bet "246" straight 3 times, and it comes in, your ticket is a $1,500 winner...which means you MUST go to the lottery office (not the retailer) to cash it...and going to the lottery office is another way of saying "We want 37.5 percent of what you won".
If you put those same 3 bets EACH on a separate ticket, you can go to a retailer and cash them in...and get NOTHING witheld. Of course, you are "supposed" to report those winnings on your taxes, and we ALL know that we ALL do that, don't we? <cough cough>
I know one woman here that plays Pick 3 about 3-4 times a year only. She usually wins one of those times. She plays the same combo on 7 separate tickets and wins $3,500 once a year. (she has her own system and doesn't share, not that I blame her) - It's all "without tax" because she doesn't put it all on one ticket. So it is treated as 7 separate "wins" of $500...which is below the $600 "radar".
Since you mentioned that you didn't know lottery wins were taxed, are you aware that if you win a contest that offers non-cash prizes (like a trip or a car, etc) that THOSE prizes are ALSO considered "income" and therefore are taxed? IOW if you win a $30,000 car in a contest, YOU must come up with the taxes before you get the car. The govt is not going to trust that you will be a good fellow and pay later.
I never enter ANY contest that doesn't offer cash prizes....that way, SHOULD I win, they can deduct the taxes from the winnings...because there is no WAY I could come up with the cash "up front".
Badger
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Badger:
Yes, I was aware that major sweepstakes and contest prizes are taxed, but they always have been. However, lottery tickets have long been considered a "voluntary" tax and, until recently, (within the past two years), Indiana didn't tax major lottery prizes on the state level.
If I ever won a Powerball jackpot (I don't play the Hoosier Lotto, or any Hoosier Lottery games anymore), I would challenge this state tax policy in a court of law, since a compelling argument can be made that it amounts to double taxation. The reason lotteries exist is to decrease constituents' tax bases, not to add to them.
Before Indiana had a lottery, I used to play in Ohio, and there was no state tax on any lottery winnings there. Part of the fun was not having to give the state any part of your windfall. What's next - sales tax on lottery tickets? Income tax on my municipal bonds? Why don't they just send me a bill at the end of the month and tell me what my share is of the money they've squandered?
They'll vote themselves a raise in January, and then reach deep into our pockets to pay for their favorite programs, and then tell us to hang in there, we just need to tighten our belts for a while, that things will get better just as soon as they throw all this money at something we've never heard of before, or have no interest in, or don't need or even want.
This is greed, plain and simple. It's just another way of heaping the major portion of the tax burden onto the shoulders of the middle and lower classes. I think our elected officials should have to pay for their mistakes, just like the rest of us do. If you're a cashier, you have to make up any shortages in your cash drawer; if you're a carpenter, and you measure incorrectly before you make your cuts, you have to pay for the replacement material; If you're a cab driver, you have to make up the revenue if your fare stiffs you. Why do we always get stuck footing the bill for the incompetence of our public officials? Maybe they wouldn't be so stupid if they were held accountable for their actions while in office.
Idiocy is a very expensive commodity in this country, despite the incredibly abundant supply.
Come, Pinky; we must prepare for tomorrow night...
Jim
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Quote: Originally posted by jim695 on July 31, 2004
Before Indiana had a lottery, I used to play in Ohio, and there was no state tax on any lottery winnings there. Part of the fun was not having to give the state any part of your windfall.
I remembered when players would come from Indiana, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Kentucky to play the Ohio lottery, those were the days of jackpots upward of $60M plus, but I alway thought we had a state tax then. Well that is no longer true and now some of the local communities are charging a tax also, so you may pay local as well as state and federal taxes on your winnings.
RJOh
* you don't need to buy every combination, just the winning ones *
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Quote: Originally posted by jim695 on July 31, 2004
Badger:
Yes, I was aware that major sweepstakes and contest prizes are taxed, but they always have been. However, lottery tickets have long been considered a "voluntary" tax and, until recently, (within the past two years), Indiana didn't tax major lottery prizes on the state level.
If I ever won a Powerball jackpot (I don't play the Hoosier Lotto, or any Hoosier Lottery games anymore), I would challenge this state tax policy in a court of law, since a compelling argument can be made that it amounts to double taxation. The reason lotteries exist is to decrease constituents' tax bases, not to add to them.
Before Indiana had a lottery, I used to play in Ohio, and there was no state tax on any lottery winnings there. Part of the fun was not having to give the state any part of your windfall. What's next - sales tax on lottery tickets? Income tax on my municipal bonds? Why don't they just send me a bill at the end of the month and tell me what my share is of the money they've squandered?
They'll vote themselves a raise in January, and then reach deep into our pockets to pay for their favorite programs, and then tell us to hang in there, we just need to tighten our belts for a while, that things will get better just as soon as they throw all this money at something we've never heard of before, or have no interest in, or don't need or even want.
This is greed, plain and simple. It's just another way of heaping the major portion of the tax burden onto the shoulders of the middle and lower classes. I think our elected officials should have to pay for their mistakes, just like the rest of us do. If you're a cashier, you have to make up any shortages in your cash drawer; if you're a carpenter, and you measure incorrectly before you make your cuts, you have to pay for the replacement material; If you're a cab driver, you have to make up the revenue if your fare stiffs you. Why do we always get stuck footing the bill for the incompetence of our public officials? Maybe they wouldn't be so stupid if they were held accountable for their actions while in office.
Idiocy is a very expensive commodity in this country, despite the incredibly abundant supply.
Basically I cannot disagree with any of your feelings mentioned above. I have always thought that the biggest problem we have is that the elected officials at the state and Fed level are the ones that make the laws. This includes the silliness about voting themselves raises, dumping "fees" (the 21st century definition of "tax") on the people who voted them in, and basically deciding whatever they want to do to drain the last bit of blood from each of us turnips.
The problem further is exacerbated by the fact that they are only accountable to themselves. The argument that they can not be re-elected by the voters and are therefore accountable to the voters is a weak one IMHO. The reason is that (A) voters "forget" easily, and (B) 99% of the time when the incumbent weasel is running, his/her opponent is merely aother weasel. You can't take a single sentence that any politician utters during his/her campaign as being truthful. THey merely say what they believe will get them votes. Once elected, they develop total amnesia. WHen reminded by audio recordings, they immediately begin their best tap dance (and they are all stunning tap dancers) in (A) either trying to explain that what they said and what we think they meant are not the same, or (B) they flat-out speak paragraphs that say absoultely nothing in answer to the question.
I've watched it all for over 50 years. Basically they are all useless. It doesn't much matter who replaces them. Nothing changes for the lower and middle class.
Badger
