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Wisconsin Lottery switches to computers to select winning numbers

Topic closed. 41 replies. Last post 12 years ago by CASH Only.

Page 2 of 3

United States
Member #60
October 28, 2001
455 Posts
Posted: November 12, 2004, 11:51 am - IP Logged

I'll bring it up again. Approximately 1987-1989 The Connecticut Lottery ran into a little trouble with their Pick3 drawing. Appearantly, everyone in the State and surrounding States played "555" or "513" on a May 5th or on a Friday the 13th. (Criscross) and Connecticut had to borrow an additional $80 Million+ Dollars to compensate those winners. I clearly remember the Director of the Lottery (About that time.) Stating: That will never happen again in a Hartford Current Newspaper. I knew then that a change was in the mix. If I could only recover that article or the column heading of that article, you would see that it said a lot because, it stood out like dust on a white glove. 

Mr Chuck32. Would it be fair to say that, there is a strong possibility, out of 1000 pick3 combinations, (Keeping in mind that the lotteries are about generating revenue regardless of what that revenus is supporting.) the combination with the least amounts wagered (Meaning you are simply buying 3 numbers for an anticipated drawing.) along with being, insinct with the running numbers for the week are likely to draw?

I am asking that due to, some of the States posting their counts of winners on their top payout (Pick3 & Pick4 prizes.) such as, California, New York and Pennsylvania. Also, I am asking based on past political scams in the past regarding the lotteries. It has always been my belief that there are a lot of electronic and magnectic micro devices that can be attached to balls though that issue has never arrived in that past. This is no personal attack on you, it is just a matter of inquiring minds would like to know.

lottoscorp ...

    Farmingdale N.Y.
    United States
    Member #12
    August 15, 2001
    356 Posts
    Posted: November 12, 2004, 1:46 pm - IP Logged

    Lottoscorp: As far as Wisconsin is concerned, weather you are for or against computerized drawings, the very idea of keeping the drawing out of the publics view, should warrant a boycott of the games by the public. A one week boycott should get the message across. Think of your money not spent on the lottery as a saving for Christmas presents for the family.



      bobby623's avatar - abstract
      San Angelo, Texas
      United States
      Member #1097
      January 31, 2003
      1394 Posts
      Posted: November 12, 2004, 2:29 pm - IP Logged

      My objection to computer drawings is the possibility that the computers will have a network card buried in the software. Using wireless technology, the computer could, during the 30 minutes between the time sales are halted and the drawing, scan a nearby lottery computer and come up with winning numbers that would minimize lottery losses.

      Despite multiple shielding, almost all electronic devices have unwanted and sometimes compromising radiation, even when the device is operated within a screen room.

      No such problems exists with mechanical drawing machines.

      A question for chuck32: How can lottery players know with confidence that a computer RNG has no means whatever of consulting with other computers via wireless connection?

      Also, do the RNGs you speak of have a memory? My understanding is that RNGs used to issue Quick Picks don't have memories. These devices are known to issue the same set of numbers to more than one player.

      Finally, I hope you aren't one of the computer companies trying to make an extra buck by selling computer RNGs to the Texas Lottery.

        JADELottery's avatar - MeAtWork 03.PNG
        The Quantum Master
        West Concord, MN
        United States
        Member #21
        December 7, 2001
        3675 Posts
        Posted: November 12, 2004, 2:44 pm - IP Logged

        Ms. Fluff and Mr. Confusion have taken up residence here at 888 Lottery Post Way. They have been throwing some well funded parties and creating alot of noise. Their objective is to upset and create doubt in the minds of the other residence. However, there are other tenants living here that see through their plan, Ms. Truth and Mr. Fact. Although there may be no eviction by managment, there will be a 'virtual' eviction in the minds of the other residence.

        Presented 'AS IS' and for Entertainment Purposes Only.
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        Order is a Subset of Chaos
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        Douglas Paul Smallish

          Urbandale, IA
          United States
          Member #8624
          November 11, 2004
          115 Posts
          Posted: November 12, 2004, 2:56 pm - IP Logged

          I think a player can "know with confidence" (as opposed to knowing absolutely) by understanding the process.  Though not exactly the same, both mechanical and RNG's have similar issues.  Most players can feel comfortable knowing that the RNG is designed and built by one company, then torn apart and reviewed by highly skilled independent testing firms and is then evaluated again by the lottery and/or audit firm.  All components are examined to ensure that no wireless capability exists.

          RNG drawings are open to the public so that they can observe the process.  One might argue that it is hard to determine what is going on inside a computer, but without X-ray vision a player can't really tell what might be inserted into drawing balls either (or one of a hundred other methods of compromising a system). 

          In the end, confidence can only reasonbly be had by understanding the process and knowing that multiple skilled persons are involved in checking the systems.  For mechanical draws, the equipment is built, then examined and tested by lottery staff and an accounting firm.  For RNG's - because the system is more complicated - the system is also examined and tested by a firm skilled in evaluating electronic systems before being examined and tested again by the lottery and audit firm.  The auditors are present for every drawing (under both systems) and with an RNG, our system adds a security feature to allow yet another independent entity to audit every set of numbers drawn.  Other RNG systems have slightly different methods of auditing the results but they all have the same goal.

          We have not worked with TX.  I know they were out for bid, but I'm not sure where they stand now.

          The RNG's do not remember past numbers selected.  The RNG's in the lottery terminals are pseudo-RNG's but they also do not remember past numbers selected.  I have known of problems with terminal RNG's.  While they are generally designed (at least today) to produce results that cannot be shown to be non-random (there is no test to prove randomness), they are not at the same level as a drawing RNG.  In the case of a quick pick, there are TWO random dvents occuring (the ticket buy and the drawing).  As long as one side is fair, then the game is fair.

            Columbia City, Indiana
            United States
            Member #2978
            December 9, 2003
            381 Posts
            Posted: November 12, 2004, 3:07 pm - IP Logged

            In a Pick-4 game drawn with ping-pong balls, I know for a fact that my  overall odds of winning are 1 in 10 X 10 X 10 X 10 = 10,000. In a Pick-3 game using the same method, I can see that my odds are 1 in 10 X 10 X 10 = 1,000.

            Looking at a computerized random number generator, how would I do the math? 

            People of Wisconsin, keep a very close eye on your upcoming payouts, especially in your daily games. Now that your state has decided that the integrity of the game isn't worth the comparitively few dollars it would cost them to keep the game in public view, your payouts will drop dramatically. In fiscal year 2000, the first year Indiana used their RNG, they lost $100,000,000.00 in sales. That's one hundred million dollars they lost in order to save eighty thousand (their figures).

            In my opinion, the ONLY reason any state would opt to switch to a computerized RNG is that it makes the games far easier to manipulate, especially when there's no televised drawing. Not to cast a shadow on the good people at Gaming Labs, International, but they certified our RNG, too. This is supposed to make us feel better, but they have no control over the integrity of that machine once it leaves their site, and it's obvious to many of us that Indiana's RNG has been compromised. How else can they explain average daily payouts of under $5,000.00 in a state with six million people??? 

            The Hoosier Lottery is about to come tumbling down. Maybe the coming slaughter of our own lottery officials will give other states something to think about.

            Come, Pinky; we must prepare for tomorrow night...


              LANTERN's avatar - kilroy 28_173_reasonably_small.jpg
              United States
              Member #4570
              May 4, 2004
              5180 Posts
              Posted: November 12, 2004, 4:34 pm - IP Logged

              I tell everybody everywhere right now that it does not whatsoever matters what system(s) the state lotteries use for their draws, 100% sure that it does not matter at all, "if" the state lotteries have been, are or will, "FIX" their draws, they would, regardless of any drawing method(s) used, in spite of you, me (I) and or everybody else anywhere, I am of course not saying at all, that the lottery draws have been, are and or will be "FIXED", just that if they were to be, they would be regardless of any drawing method(s) and or system(s) used, all in-spite of anything and everything, no matter what, They say "Money talks", I say "Money does".

              So never worry about the computers or whatever else, what will be done will be done, no matter what you, or I do.

              I am NOT a pro-state lottery person and I tell you that I am 100% sure that in the end it does not matter what drawing method is used.

              But that does not mean that people will never win, people can still win once in a while, some more and some less.

              No matter what the state lotteries do, some people will win using their intuition and others by finding "Loopholes" in the game.

              They say that it's a game of chance, so some will win by chance, some by intuition and others by technique, those  who do by sytems always have to change and improve to stay ahead.

              As a few of you are aware, this winning thing can only be for sure on the pick 3 no matter what the state lotteries might do to keep people from winning, but with the pick 4 and the other games, yes you (we) don't have to win and yes if they want and they do, they can sure keep as from winning and they do.

              The pick 3 is the only game in which you can still win sometimes yes no matter what the state lotteries do or might do, they can make it very hard and they can keep you and they do, from win ning often, but they can't keep you from winning sometimes.

              There is intuition and there are also a few loop-holes, if you want and really try as some people do, you can get to know the pick 3 game more and better than any state lottery person does anywhere, that does not mean winning every-time, but perhaps winning more often.

              We are all trying in some way or other and the state lottery people also do.

              Don't worry about how the numbers are drawn, it's futile. 

              Nothing is 100% random, nothing and there are always some patterns, allways in spite and despite the state lotteries, there will always be some patterns, they will change and do, but there will always be patterns, you just have to be very much more flexable and sharper and more intuitive.

              The patterns will always be there no matter what, they will just change a lot and drive you crazy, but they will never go away, they can't this is where observation and intuition comes into practice.

              There will always be techniques for winning the pick 3, they just have to be adjusted or readjusted every so often and or changed, but the holes in the game wil never go away, they can't, as soon as one hole is closed another opens up, it will always happen and always has.

              A person just needs to stay ahead.

              BibleOnline  ParishesOnline  ChristianRadioOnline   MassOnline   Mass

              "Ten measures of beauty descended to the world, nine were taken by Jerusalem."

                Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                Chief Bottle Washer
                New Jersey
                United States
                Member #1
                May 31, 2000
                23259 Posts
                Posted: November 12, 2004, 5:17 pm - IP Logged

                Lantern, I disagree.  It DOES matter how the numbers are drawn.


                Check the State Lottery Report Card
                What grade did your lottery earn?


                Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                Help eliminate computerized drawings!

                  United States
                  Member #60
                  October 28, 2001
                  455 Posts
                  Posted: November 12, 2004, 6:29 pm - IP Logged

                  Interesting. PegLeg I guess it is hard to bring my next point across without stepping on some toes but, A power strategy one that embraces the direct dynamics of the drawings is what we should be looking at. Chuck32 I thank you for your Pa displays of quads but, I am left with the impression, most people play triples & quads (Those less knowledgeable.) because they either have an attraction for them or the numbers are easier, to select.

                  Ah Yes, Mr. LANTERN. It doesn't matter how the numbers are drawn, RNG or Balls. I have researched the lottery long enough to know that each lottery is limited only to the designs of the games they are running. Odds are only an issue when you don't win. I like to know how the war was won before, the battle begins. That is how I approach any Lottery. But, this is not about me. Now morally, it matters how the numbers are drawn. A lot of you or even all of you at one point or another, have won the lottery. The public eye should always be in play. And it should not be up to the Corporate Game Developers or Politicians, to decide on their own merrit or view that they are honest and historically, we already know their track records.

                  lottoscorp ...

                    DoctorEw220's avatar - alien helmet.jpg
                    Yinzer Country, PA
                    United States
                    Member #4067
                    March 18, 2004
                    2741 Posts
                    Posted: November 12, 2004, 6:30 pm - IP Logged

                    yes. before PA finaly drew a triple and a quad in their mid-day drawing, there was a lot of speculaton as to whether or not their mid-day drawings were rigged. with computerized drawings, integrity and fairness of the drawings will come into question, especially when there have been states that have released their results too soon, and take a long time from the cutoff to draw the numbers. i should hope that powerball or mega millions never sinks low enough to go to an RNG. the MUSL already does it with wild card 2 and 2 by 2. judging by sales figures, RNGs are not welcome in American lotteries because sales WILL drop if a state changes to an RNG for the drawings.

                    I've redone my website.  Go to www.dr-ew.com.  I kept a lot of the old stuff, and I've added some new stuff.  Look for more new stuff in the coming weeks.

                      United States
                      Member #60
                      October 28, 2001
                      455 Posts
                      Posted: November 12, 2004, 6:55 pm - IP Logged

                      Chuck32, I stand corrected. But I do not believe Connecticut had that "Sales Stop" feature back then. I wouldn't be surprised if they were using that feature in their on-line system now. Like increasing numbers, (balls) I can see Powerball or USAMega doing it, they are a Multi-State Lottery. I cannot see the States doing it. They don't really need to do it. Now there, the size of a playing-population comes into play as an issue. Truth, I suspect the public is becoming too smart with the technology in use, and they are running out of ideas, on how to stay on top of it all. There are plenty of organizations that are about protecting lotteries such as, NASPL www.naspl.org .You will find these individuals to be very interesting in their views.

                      lottoscorp ...    

                        dvdiva's avatar - 8ball

                        United States
                        Member #2338
                        September 17, 2003
                        2063 Posts
                        Posted: November 12, 2004, 11:44 pm - IP Logged

                        Lotteries don't care what their customers want. Hence no televized drawings. They will only care when the first scandal happens that the numbers weren't random and someone cheated. The extreme negative effect that would have on their bottom line would force them to go back to televized ball drawings. Short of that I think all drawings will be out of the public eye and computerized soon.

                          bobby jones's avatar - anime15
                          United States
                          Member #4322
                          April 13, 2004
                          27 Posts
                          Posted: November 13, 2004, 7:22 am - IP Logged

                          this is kind of scary for illinois also.i mean that wisconsin is right around the corner from illinois.if they were to do that here i would stop playing all together.illinois is corrupt enough can u imagine mayor daley and his friends running the lottery this way.look we are the people and we have the power to stop any corporation.all we have to do as people is not to by there products.everyone in wisconsin or at least 50 percent of the people there should stop playing the lottery just for one day.i bet u will see instant changes.then if one day doesnt work then do it once every other day untill your demands are met.remember that the lottery is not like the gasoline problem.we need gas to go, to and from work and so forth.we dont need the lottery for anything more than entertainment purposes,you could really say that the lottery and the state need us!!!!!!!!!!!!

                            Rick G's avatar - avatar 1766.jpg
                            FEMA Region V Camp #21
                            United States
                            Member #520
                            July 27, 2002
                            5699 Posts
                            Posted: November 13, 2004, 12:40 pm - IP Logged

                            Imagine if you went to a casino and every slot machine was just an LED readout of a random number instead of 7's, bars, cherries etc. on reels.  Or if you went to a  racetrack with no horses, just the announcer telling you the winner.  Or if you sat down at a blackjack table without cards or dealer, a roulette table with no wheel or ball, but just LED readouts that say "you win" or "you lose".  The gambler wants the full entertainment of the act, not just the final result.  They want balls jumping, reels spinning, wheels turning, horses running, etc....the bells and whistles (the dvents leading to the outcome) are the fun of the game and hence the attraction.

                            It's like skipping the whole book and reading only the last chapter.  And adding insult to injury they're not even going to show you the last chapter, they're just going to tell you how it ended.  What kind of entertainment is that?  The highlight of my day is to see the beautiful and perky Linda Kollmeier doing the IL draws using those good old fashioned bouncing ping pong balls.  RNG's just don't affect me the same way and I would probably lose interest in the game.

                            Posted 4/6:  IL Pick 3 midday and evening until they hit:  555, 347 (str8).

                              Urbandale, IA
                              United States
                              Member #8624
                              November 11, 2004
                              115 Posts
                              Posted: November 13, 2004, 2:31 pm - IP Logged

                              Of course, most slots these days are RNG's with a pretty graphics engine.  Not sure how many true mechanical reels are out there anymore.  I'm meeting with the major slots vendors next week and will try to remember to ask.  Most lottery RNG's are also capable of high-end graphic output.  Oddly, many output computer-generated ball drawing machines, for those few people who still whatch lottery drawings on TV.

                              Triples and Quads not imaginative?  The most popular lotto numbers for nearly every state are 1-2-3-4-5-6.  Sometimes 5-10-15-20-25-30 comes close; then lines on the playslip (diagonals, etc.); followed by whatever numbers a popular lottery column might be predicting.  They do have the same chance as any other number, of course, just a lot of sharing going on.

                              Lotteries certainly do care about what their players want.  As has been pointed out: No lottery players, no lottery.  But to the extent that they can, lotteries have to run like a business.  If no one is watching the drawings and the TV stations are starting to charge to air the drawings, it may be reasonable to move to the web.  Players have their say all of the time.  Great concepts like giving away $1 million a day to anyone who matches the numbers (no sharing like other lottery games) failed when players rejected Daily Millions.  In research, players swore they would love that game.  But I digress.

                              Let your lottery know of your feelings about RNG's, and they will listen and make a decision based on their business interests.  Just do give it a little thought first.  Do mechanical drawings guarantee fairness?  Do RNG's guarantee fraud?  To take a tactic from political candidates - no RNG has every been shown to be fraudulent and all of the lottery frauds in the world have involved mechanical draws (great fun with statistics).