Editor: The following is the full-text of a Press Release issued by the Wisconsin Lottery. It is important for Lottery Players to understand the emerging trend of computerized lottery drawings -- whether you are for or against them. More information about the subject can be found in the Lottery Post Petition for True Lottery Drawings.
The Wisconsin Lottery is now one of more than a dozen U.S. lotteries to use random number generating computers to select the winning numbers for its nightly on-line games, Michael J. Edmonds, Acting Lottery Director said last week.
"Random number generators have become the standard," said Edmonds. "They are secure and cost effective."
Edmonds said the Lottery began to research random number generators as it faced the prospect of having to replace its aging inventory of mechanical ball machines. The newest mechanical draw machines are seven years old; several back up machines were purchased more than 10 years ago. Replacing them would cost the Lottery anywhere from $125,000-$200,000. By contrast, the total cost for three computers with three certified random number generator (RNG) programs and the cabinets to house them was $11,000.
But Edmonds said it was the security of the new computerized system that sealed the deal.
"We wouldnt have made the switch if we thought there was anything that could compromise the integrity of our drawings," Edmonds said.
The RNG programs used by the Lottery were certified by Gaming Laboratories International of Lakewood, New Jersey and were installed on three computers in the presence of independent auditors and Lottery security personnel. The RNG drawing computers are "stand alone" units: They are not hooked up to a network of any kind, meaning no one can "hack" into them to manipulate drawing results.
Each night within the Lotterys secure computer room a Capitol Police Officer and an independent auditor randomly select one of the RNG units for that nights drawings. Along with a Lottery drawing staff employee they open the locked, sealed cabinet in which the selected machine is kept and test the RNG program a minimum of 10 times. They then conduct the drawings by following a strict set of procedures and verify and affirm the results. As has always been the case, all activity within the drawing room is recorded and members of the public may witness the drawings.
Within the region, the Minnesota, Missouri and Indiana lotteries also use RNG computers for their drawings.
(1). Are they tied to the online system (For reading all combo's played throughout the State of Wisconsin) via Satlink?
(2). Will there be a televised display where the generated action can be viewed by the public?
(3). Would the public have access to the original documents and agreements in principle, as to a standard binding policy of drawing operations for the Director of Wisconsin's Lottery?
These people are doing whatever they want and no one is checking them on it.
It really is bad ! Frankly, now I wonder what is the point in trying to use any kind of method at all for my state now?
If the RNGs are truly random, there will be no patterns to find. So there is nothing left but quickpicks if you want to play. I mean,. why waste valuable time and energy on it if there is nothing but truly random picks?
I should have figured. Wisconsin is the 3rd highest taxed state in the USA, and the state govt is the stingiest and tightest when it comes to letting the people have anything back.
Pooh! I know that there are some who suggest that RNGS are not as secure, but RNG's are actually much more secure. Mechanical drawing machines have certainly been compromised and it takes a lot less skill to get that done. Our group builds RNG's for lotteries - though we do it at cost and so promoting it to make a profit is truly not an issue here.
Our machines are TRUE RNG's, using unpredictable quantum decay to create the seed. The machines are locked up tight with no operator access to the OS. The results produced by the RNG are hashed and can be checked only by a program given to a third party. We put the electronics in a lighted clear case so that each component can be number-sealed and checked by an auditor. Finally, the whole thing (hardware and software) is tested and certified by GLI (the folks who are the premier testing firm in the slots/VLT industry).
There is lots more security and testing capabilities that I can't go into here, but nobody on this side wants to see a lottery scandal (since that would mean we would be doing something else - probably involving a Slurpy(TM) machine) and so we go to great effort to ensure that the drawings are fair.
Quote:Originally posted by chuck32 on November 11, 2004
Pooh! I know that there are some who suggest that RNGS are not as secure, but RNG's are actually much more secure. Mechanical drawing machines have certainly been compromised and it takes a lot less skill to get that done. Our group builds RNG's for lotteries - though we do it at cost and so promoting it to make a profit is truly not an issue here.
Our machines are TRUE RNG's, using unpredictable quantum decay to create the seed. The machines are locked up tight with no operator access to the OS. The results produced by the RNG are hashed and can be checked only by a program given to a third party. We put the electronics in a lighted clear case so that each component can be number-sealed and checked by an auditor. Finally, the whole thing (hardware and software) is tested and certified by GLI (the folks who are the premier testing firm in the slots/VLT industry).
There is lots more security and testing capabilities that I can't go into here, but nobody on this side wants to see a lottery scandal (since that would mean we would be doing something else - probably involving a Slurpy(TM) machine) and so we go to great effort to ensure that the drawings are fair.
Your RNGs may be the best, but that's not the point. A hacker can get in - that's a fact. There is no such thing as a foolproof security system. Plus, humans are still involved in the drawing process, and that's always a big weak point. Just like the $1 million insider scam in Indiana this week.
It is not a simple technology issue as you seem to be suggesting.
I am the world's biggest supporter of technology (you can see I'm a propeller-head, having created this web site myself), so you cannot accuse me of being anti-RNG or anti-technology. I'm just looking out for what's best for the players.
Quote:Originally posted by lottoscorp on November 11, 2004
I just have 3 questions:
If these machines are stand-alone machines;
(1). Are they tied to the online system (For reading all combo's played throughout the State of Wisconsin) via Satlink?
(2). Will there be a televised display where the generated action can be viewed by the public?
(3). Would the public have access to the original documents and agreements in principle, as to a standard binding policy of drawing operations for the Director of Wisconsin's Lottery?
These people are doing whatever they want and no one is checking them on it.
lottoscorp...
Lottoscorp,
Wisconsin ceased televising any of its drawings at the beginning of the year. They claim it cost them too much. So now we get a "secret" drawing that only the lottery officials view, them they tell us what happened.
As far as them doing whatever they want....it's much the same as our politicians here. They seem to do whatever they want. ANd the people are getting highly pissed off !
I do agree that any computer system can be compromised (as can a mechanical system). It is a constant battle to study what has gone wrong and what might go wrong so that we can stay ahead of the bad guys. You are quite right that humans are a big problem. Even with our RNG, if the independent auditor, the lottery person (or persons for many states) and someone at the control ageny (in WI's case, the Department of Revenue) conspire together, they can put out a press release with any numbers as the winning numbers. Add in us or GLI and you could even have the RNG spit out a planned number. Of course, none of us can play and some someone else would have to collect the money - the issues go on and on.
As I tell players who write to ask how they can be assured that lottery games are fair - you can't, unless you plan to attend every drawing and stand at every computer site at all times (and have the knowledge to know what you are observing). The best that an average player can do is to trust the independent auditors (and their insurance companies who will pay in the dvent of fraud or negligence), the system and procedural audits done by third parties, and the fact that multiple persons would be required to compromise the system (in the end, most humans also talk or get greedy).
As you know, Todd, we also run mechanical drawings for lotteries too. We go to great effort to ensure that those are fair (I don't think I would be exagerating to say that they are the most secure mechanical drawings on the planet), but I would rather put my faith in the RNG.
I do know that since most people have lots of experience with computers, they know that computers can fail and can be compromised - but I suspect that players can also figure out ways to compromise a mechanical drawing. Our RNG is designed a little differently than others. We don't rely on secure programming alone, but take the view that any computer program can be hacked. Our RNG's are designed to be treated like a mechanical draw machine. They are built (hardware and software) by more than one person, then thoroughly tested by an independent lab (code is examined), sealed and delivered to a lottery that does more testing. Like mechanical machines, they are locked up and accessed only by a minimum of two persons from different firms (usually more with lottery, audit firm, and some kind of outside security officer). I think this is key. We don't put all of our faith in a secure computer program alone. Like a mechanical drawing machine, the system must never be available to a single person. Even though we are extremly confident that no one can compromise it if they did have single access, we simply know better than to use words like ALWAYS, NEVER, etc. We must assume that someone is always smarter.
In the end, if the RNG's are properly built, tested, and secured (just like must be the case with a mechanical machine), then they can be even more secure. Just about anyone off the street, given access, can come up with a way to compromise a mechanical system. An RNG requires much more skill (and I assume that someone out there can find a way to beat security, given enough time).
To answer a previous question, the machines are not connected to the outside. They exist and operated in a locked room with no external connections.
By the way, Chuck, good to have you on board. Too many in the industry treat the players in a very disconnected manner, and you are always very open and communicative - and sensitive to the feelings of the players. I'm sure others here would agree.
I'm sure this issue will not go away for a long time - if ever. There will always be players who do not like computerized drawings. There is also a large block of players who don't care either way.
I guess my main sticking points boil down to:
I perceive that there are far fewer players who dislike mechanical drawing machines than those who dislike computerized drawings. There is something real and comforting about seeing those ping pong balls come out of a real machine.
There is no way for a person to actually witness a computerized drawing - which will breed suspicion (which is like poison to a lottery)
I have not seen any budget which makes an overwhelming case to go to computerized drawings. A savings of $200k per year is nothing compared to $1 billion in revenues - and the $200k could easily be lost in player erosion.
The bottom line is that I really don't see the burning need to go to computerized drawings - even if some people think it's "technically" better. Other people feel the same way. Therefore, the logical extension of this thought is that if there is no burning need to transition, then why are the lotteries really doing it? Does it give them room to hide something?
Again, I am not someone prone to conspiracy theories (as any regular visitor here would tell you), but this is what runs through players' minds.
Giving a human response (rather than the corporate response) can sometimes get you into trouble - though not as much as I might have thought. I can think of only a few times that players ended up threatening me or sending a note of complaint to a governor somewhere. And I did get several hate mails (from all over the world) following my recent criticsim of the moralists in Idaho who are teaching children about the sin of the lottery. But, generally, people do respond better to a "real" response. We did have someone else writing for a while - using the standard corporate response ("Thanks for writing and for taking the time to ask a question. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask.") - but it just wasn't working (though we never had one complaint).
Your point that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good one. You would be surprised, though how important these "little dollars" can be. A lottery can bring in hundreds of millions for a state and still have a legislature or governor cut a few hundred dollars for a trip to pick up a new idea. Especially in these times, lotteries see their budgets cut all the time. A $100k here and and there, as they say, can add up to real money. Remember that last year, one state dropped lottery ad dollars to $0. Another state prohibits any lottery action that encourages people to play. And, of course, lotteries frequently run up against legislators who believe that all you have to do to increase profits is to cut the prize payout percentage.
You also make a good point about players being able to "observe" a mechanical drawing. They can go in and watch the RNG being operated too, but I agree that people have a perception that they are able to judge a mechanical drawing as fair. Of course, only .00000001% of the players actually attend a drawing (I just looked that number up!).
I'm glad that players feel comfortable with mechanical draws. I can understand that perception, but , of course, the real security issues are no different. With just a little more conspiracy theory paranoia <G>, one can pretty quickly dismiss a mechanical drawing too. In the end, as you say, the players will ultimately control what a lottery will do.
Whew! Am I ever verbose. Time to get back to work.
I've heard it said by someone before that the balls have no memory and you can't predicted what will occur. Now that computers are picking the numbers, they do now.
If there are any lottery program developers out there reading in on this, you need to revise your probability theory, statistical analysis, and calculated predictions. Computers can only simulate real world conditions; for this, there is a possibility that trends that once exsisted in the natural world may now be enhanced by the narrow view of the virtual world. Also, it has now become the players responsibility to audit the randomness of the lottery draw dvent. Developers should exploit this fact to whatever ends and means they see fit.
Quote:Originally posted by JADELottery on November 12, 2004
I've heard it said by someone before that the balls have no memory and you can't predicted what will occur. Now that computers are picking the numbers, they do now.
If there are any lottery program developers out there reading in on this, you need to revise your probability theory, statistical analysis, and calculated predictions. Computers can only simulate real world conditions; for this, there is a possibility that trends that once exsisted in the natural world may now be enhanced by the narrow view of the virtual world. Also, it has now become the players responsibility to audit the randomness of the lottery draw dvent. Developers should exploit this fact to whatever ends and means they see fit.
Jade,
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If a computer program is developed to pick lottery combos, how could any trends even exist? To make it as simple as possible, say there are a thousand possible combinations. The computer could simply generate a whole number from 1 to 1,000...then count down the list of all combinations, and voila ; it spits out the combination that is "x" number of combinations down the list.
The next day it does the same thing, but with a different generated whole number from 1 to 1,000. It could be ANY generated whole number; there is nothing at all to tie it to a previous "drawing" at all...it is just a completely random generated whole number ; unrelated to anything else.
How can there even BE any trends?
BTW-- since lotteries are now more and more using computers, they should stop calling them "drawings". There is nothing being "drawn". They should call them something ese that more accurately reflects what they are really doing.
I'll bring it up again. Approximately 1987-1989 The Connecticut Lottery ran into a little trouble with their Pick3 drawing. Appearantly, everyone in the State and surrounding States played "555" or "513" on a May 5th or on a Friday the 13th. (Criscross) and Connecticut had to borrow an additional $80 Million+ Dollars to compensate those winners. I clearly remember the Director of the Lottery (About that time.) Stating: That will never happen again in a Hartford Current Newspaper. I knew then that a change was in the mix. If I could only recover that article or the column heading of that article, you would see that it said a lot because, it stood out like dust on a white glove.
Mr Chuck32. Would it be fair to say that, there is a strong possibility, out of 1000 pick3 combinations, (Keeping in mind that the lotteries are about generating revenue regardless of what that revenus is supporting.) the combination with the least amounts wagered (Meaning you are simply buying 3 numbers for an anticipated drawing.) along with being, insinct with the running numbers for the week are likely to draw?
I am asking that due to, some of the States posting their counts of winners on their top payout (Pick3 & Pick4 prizes.) such as, California, New York and Pennsylvania. Also, I am asking based on past political scams in the past regarding the lotteries. It has always been my belief that there are a lot of electronic and magnectic micro devices that can be attached to balls though that issue has never arrived in that past. This is no personal attack on you, it is just a matter of inquiring minds would like to know.
Lottoscorp: As far as Wisconsin is concerned, weather you are for or against computerized drawings, the very idea of keeping the drawing out of the publics view, should warrant a boycott of the games by the public. A one week boycott should get the message across. Think of your money not spent on the lottery as a saving for Christmas presents for the family.
My objection to computer drawings is the possibility that the computers will have a network card buried in the software. Using wireless technology, the computer could, during the 30 minutes between the time sales are halted and the drawing, scan a nearby lottery computer and come up with winning numbers that would minimize lottery losses.
Despite multiple shielding, almost all electronic devices have unwanted and sometimes compromising radiation, even when the device is operated within a screen room.
No such problems exists with mechanical drawing machines.
A question for chuck32: How can lottery players know with confidence that a computer RNG has no means whatever of consulting with other computers via wireless connection?
Also, do the RNGs you speak of have a memory? My understanding is that RNGs used to issue Quick Picks don't have memories. These devices are known to issue the same set of numbers to more than one player.
Finally, I hope you aren't one of the computer companies trying to make an extra buck by selling computer RNGs to the Texas Lottery.
Ms. Fluff and Mr. Confusion have taken up residence here at 888 Lottery Post Way. They have been throwing some well funded parties and creating alot of noise. Their objective is to upset and create doubt in the minds of the other residence. However, there are other tenants living here that see through their plan, Ms. Truth and Mr. Fact. Although there may be no eviction by managment, there will be a 'virtual' eviction in the minds of the other residence.
I think a player can "know with confidence" (as opposed to knowing absolutely) by understanding the process. Though not exactly the same, both mechanical and RNG's have similar issues. Most players can feel comfortable knowing that the RNG is designed and built by one company, then torn apart and reviewed by highly skilled independent testing firms and is then evaluated again by the lottery and/or audit firm. All components are examined to ensure that no wireless capability exists.
RNG drawings are open to the public so that they can observe the process. One might argue that it is hard to determine what is going on inside a computer, but without X-ray vision a player can't really tell what might be inserted into drawing balls either (or one of a hundred other methods of compromising a system).
In the end, confidence can only reasonbly be had by understanding the process and knowing that multiple skilled persons are involved in checking the systems. For mechanical draws, the equipment is built, then examined and tested by lottery staff and an accounting firm. For RNG's - because the system is more complicated - the system is also examined and tested by a firm skilled in evaluating electronic systems before being examined and tested again by the lottery and audit firm. The auditors are present for every drawing (under both systems) and with an RNG, our system adds a security feature to allow yet another independent entity to audit every set of numbers drawn. Other RNG systems have slightly different methods of auditing the results but they all have the same goal.
We have not worked with TX. I know they were out for bid, but I'm not sure where they stand now.
The RNG's do not remember past numbers selected. The RNG's in the lottery terminals are pseudo-RNG's but they also do not remember past numbers selected. I have known of problems with terminal RNG's. While they are generally designed (at least today) to produce results that cannot be shown to be non-random (there is no test to prove randomness), they are not at the same level as a drawing RNG. In the case of a quick pick, there are TWO random dvents occuring (the ticket buy and the drawing). As long as one side is fair, then the game is fair.
In a Pick-4 game drawn with ping-pong balls, I know for a fact that my overall odds of winning are 1 in 10 X 10 X 10 X 10 = 10,000. In a Pick-3 game using the same method, I can see that my odds are 1 in 10 X 10 X 10 = 1,000.
Looking at a computerized random number generator, how would I do the math?
People of Wisconsin, keep a very close eye on your upcoming payouts, especially in your daily games. Now that your state has decided that the integrity of the game isn't worth the comparitively few dollars it would cost them to keep the game in public view, your payouts will drop dramatically. In fiscal year 2000, the first year Indiana used their RNG, they lost $100,000,000.00 in sales. That's one hundred million dollars they lost in order to save eighty thousand (their figures).
In my opinion, the ONLY reason any state would opt to switch to a computerized RNG is that it makes the games far easier to manipulate, especially when there's no televised drawing. Not to cast a shadow on the good people at Gaming Labs, International, but they certified our RNG, too. This is supposed to make us feel better, but they have no control over the integrity of that machine once it leaves their site, and it's obvious to many of us that Indiana's RNG has been compromised. How else can they explain average daily payouts of under $5,000.00 in a state with six million people???
The Hoosier Lottery is about to come tumbling down. Maybe the coming slaughter of our own lottery officials will give other states something to think about.
I tell everybody everywhere right now that it does not whatsoever matters what system(s) the state lotteries use for their draws, 100% sure that it does not matter at all, "if" the state lotteries have been, are or will,"FIX"their draws, they would, regardless of any drawing method(s) used, in spite of you, me (I) and or everybody else anywhere,I am of course not saying at all, that the lottery draws have been, are and or will be "FIXED", just that if they were to be, they would be regardless of any drawing method(s) and or system(s) used, all in-spite of anything and everything, no matter what,They say "Money talks", I say "Money does".
So never worry about the computers or whatever else, what will be done will be done, no matter what you, or I do.
I am NOT a pro-state lottery person and I tell you that I am 100% sure that in the end it does not matter what drawing method is used.
But that does not mean that people will never win, people can still win once in a while, some more and some less.
No matter what the state lotteries do, some people will win using their intuition and others by finding "Loopholes" in the game.
They say that it's a game of chance, so some will win by chance, some by intuition and others by technique, those who do by sytems always have to change and improve to stay ahead.
As a few of you are aware, this winning thing can only be for sure on the pick 3 no matter what the state lotteries might do to keep people from winning, but with the pick 4 and the other games, yes you (we) don't have to win and yes if they want and they do, they can sure keep as from winning and they do.
The pick 3 is the only game in which you can still win sometimes yes no matter what the state lotteries do or might do, they can make it very hard and they can keep you and they do, from win ning often, but they can't keep you from winning sometimes.
There is intuition and there are also a few loop-holes, if you want and really try as some people do, you can get to know the pick 3 game more and better than any state lottery person does anywhere, that does not mean winning every-time, but perhaps winning more often.
We are all trying in some way or other and the state lottery people also do.
Don't worry about how the numbers are drawn, it's futile.
Nothing is 100% random, nothing and there are always some patterns, allways in spite and despite the state lotteries, there will always be some patterns, they will change and do, but there will always be patterns, you just have to be very much more flexable and sharper and more intuitive.
The patterns will always be there no matter what, they will just change a lot and drive you crazy, but they will never go away, they can't this is where observation and intuition comes into practice.
There will always be techniques for winning the pick 3, they just have to be adjusted or readjusted every so often and or changed, but the holes in the game wil never go away, they can't, as soon as one hole is closed another opens up, it will always happen and always has.
Interesting. PegLeg I guess it is hard to bring my next point across without stepping on some toes but, A power strategy one that embraces the direct dynamics of the drawings is what we should be looking at. Chuck32 I thank you for your Pa displays of quads but, I am left with the impression, most people play triples & quads (Those less knowledgeable.) because they either have an attraction for them or the numbers are easier, to select.
Ah Yes, Mr. LANTERN. It doesn't matter how the numbers are drawn, RNG or Balls. I have researched the lottery long enough to know that each lottery is limited only to the designs of the games they are running. Odds are only an issue when you don't win. I like to know how the war was won before, the battle begins. That is how I approach any Lottery. But, this is not about me. Now morally, it matters how the numbers are drawn. A lot of you or even all of you at one point or another, have won the lottery. The public eye should always be in play. And it should not be up to the Corporate Game Developers or Politicians, to decide on their own merrit or view that they are honest and historically, we already know their track records.
yes. before PA finaly drew a triple and a quad in their mid-day drawing, there was a lot of speculaton as to whether or not their mid-day drawings were rigged. with computerized drawings, integrity and fairness of the drawings will come into question, especially when there have been states that have released their results too soon, and take a long time from the cutoff to draw the numbers. i should hope that powerball or mega millions never sinks low enough to go to an RNG. the MUSL already does it with wild card 2 and 2 by 2. judging by sales figures, RNGs are not welcome in American lotteries because sales WILL drop if a state changes to an RNG for the drawings.
Chuck32, I stand corrected. But I do not believe Connecticut had that "Sales Stop" feature back then. I wouldn't be surprised if they were using that feature in their on-line system now. Like increasing numbers, (balls) I can see Powerball or USAMega doing it, they are a Multi-State Lottery. I cannot see the States doing it. They don't really need to do it. Now there, the size of a playing-population comes into play as an issue. Truth, I suspect the public is becoming too smart with the technology in use, and they are running out of ideas, on how to stay on top of it all. There are plenty of organizations that are about protecting lotteries such as, NASPL www.naspl.org .You will find these individuals to be very interesting in their views.
Lotteries don't care what their customers want. Hence no televized drawings. They will only care when the first scandal happens that the numbers weren't random and someone cheated. The extreme negative effect that would have on their bottom line would force them to go back to televized ball drawings. Short of that I think all drawings will be out of the public eye and computerized soon.
this is kind of scary for illinois also.i mean that wisconsin is right around the corner from illinois.if they were to do that here i would stop playing all together.illinois is corrupt enough can u imagine mayor daley and his friends running the lottery this way.look we are the people and we have the power to stop any corporation.all we have to do as people is not to by there products.everyone in wisconsin or at least 50 percent of the people there should stop playing the lottery just for one day.i bet u will see instant changes.then if one day doesnt work then do it once every other day untill your demands are met.remember that the lottery is not like the gasoline problem.we need gas to go, to and from work and so forth.we dont need the lottery for anything more than entertainment purposes,you could really say that the lottery and the state need us!!!!!!!!!!!!
Imagine if you went to a casino and every slot machine was just an LED readout of a random number instead of 7's, bars, cherries etc. on reels. Or if you went to a racetrack with no horses, just the announcer telling you the winner. Or if you sat down at a blackjack table without cards or dealer, a roulette table with no wheel or ball, but just LED readouts that say "you win" or "you lose". The gambler wants the full entertainment of the act, not just the final result. They want balls jumping, reels spinning, wheels turning, horses running, etc....the bells and whistles (the dvents leading to the outcome) are the fun of the game and hence the attraction.
It's like skipping the whole book and reading only the last chapter. And adding insult to injury they're not even going to show you the last chapter, they're just going to tell you how it ended. What kind of entertainment is that? The highlight of my day is to see the beautiful and perky Linda Kollmeier doing the IL draws using those good old fashioned bouncing ping pong balls. RNG's just don't affect me the same way and I would probably lose interest in the game.
Of course, most slots these days are RNG's with a pretty graphics engine. Not sure how many true mechanical reels are out there anymore. I'm meeting with the major slots vendors next week and will try to remember to ask. Most lottery RNG's are also capable of high-end graphic output. Oddly, many output computer-generated ball drawing machines, for those few people who still whatch lottery drawings on TV.
Triples and Quads not imaginative? The most popular lotto numbers for nearly every state are 1-2-3-4-5-6. Sometimes 5-10-15-20-25-30 comes close; then lines on the playslip (diagonals, etc.); followed by whatever numbers a popular lottery column might be predicting. They do have the same chance as any other number, of course, just a lot of sharing going on.
Lotteries certainly do care about what their players want. As has been pointed out: No lottery players, no lottery. But to the extent that they can, lotteries have to run like a business. If no one is watching the drawings and the TV stations are starting to charge to air the drawings, it may be reasonable to move to the web. Players have their say all of the time. Great concepts like giving away $1 million a day to anyone who matches the numbers (no sharing like other lottery games) failed when players rejected Daily Millions. In research, players swore they would love that game. But I digress.
Let your lottery know of your feelings about RNG's, and they will listen and make a decision based on their business interests. Just do give it a little thought first. Do mechanical drawings guarantee fairness? Do RNG's guarantee fraud? To take a tactic from political candidates - no RNG has every been shown to be fraudulent and all of the lottery frauds in the world have involved mechanical draws (great fun with statistics).
You're correct about the slot machines. Even the ones that have spinning wheels are actually precisely controlled by computer.
The "listening to lottery players" topic is always an interesting one, because I always wonder what players they're listening to. For example, the state of Pennsylvania recently came up with the much-maligned Match 6 game - based on "player input". I personally don't think any normal lottery player could possibly conceive of that mess. I think they heard "we want more prizes" and translated that thought into a twisting maze of confusing prizes. Sure, there are more prizes, but I guarantee lots of winning tickets get thrown away because it's so hard to figure out if you won.
Maybe the lottery directors out there should interact with players in a real forum like this one - where everyone can see what the actual input is. There are some good state lottery people who do lurk here and do listen to what people say, but the number is too small. The people here are the types of players who play every day - just the type of player that the lottery should be listening to.
On your last point, I hope you're right. I hope they really do listen to the players. Your point about where fraud has taken place is correct, but you didn't point out the other major point of fraud: the people. There have been a few instances of mechanical fraud, but the majority of fraud cases have been insider jobs - just like the recent Indiana case. IMHO, computerized drawings create a more furtile ground for these types of fraud cases, because the average person observing a computerized drawing has absolutely no idea if they are looking at fraud. In fact, malicious code could be hidden for quite a long time before anyone would notice.
I just think the lotteries should address these points in an open and honest way. (And I think they should stick with the mechanical machines.) In some cases they claim to have done studies, but I've never seen anything. All the polls here have been very anti-computerized drawings.
I was having a little fun with the comment about fraud and mechanicals. Of course, RNG's haven't been around long enough to get much history and they are happening at a time when the drawing process has become extremely controlled. It certainly is people who commit the fraud - and the reason that the process, rather than the method, is the key to having a fair drawing. I agree that there is just something about a mechanical drawing - kind of like watching the needle drop on a spinning LP or feeding the tape and watching the big reels turning on a reel-to-reel (wish I had kept that). I miss that too but sending music from CD's or MP3's to the house stereo system is more convenient and gives me much greater control on the mix I want to hear.
Note when I say that lotteries listen to players and I don't mean that they will always do everything that EVERY player wants. PA's Match 6 is an example of a new design that is criticized but is doing pretty well. Last I looked, they were close to 20 cents per week. Those are considered good numbers for a little game these days. It is those voting dollars that are key. Still, a very few letters that make it to a lottery director can have an unproportionate effect. I will bring up the comments here next time I get together with the directors and the talk turns to RNG's, but there many factors, and surveys of larger numbers of voices, that will be involved with the decision.
Quote:Originally posted by chuck32 on November 13, 2004
Triples and Quads not imaginative? The most popular lotto numbers for nearly every state are 1-2-3-4-5-6. Sometimes 5-10-15-20-25-30 comes close; then lines on the playslip (diagonals, etc.); followed by whatever numbers a popular lottery column might be predicting. They do have the same chance as any other number, of course, just a lot of sharing going on.
Very true. Here is the PA Cash 5 from earlier this year:
Fri, February 6, 2004
Cash 5: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25
242 players matched 5 of 5, each receiving $439.00
402 players matched 4 of 5, each receiving $110.50
6,269 players matched 3 of 5, each receiving $7.50
56,593 players matched 2 of 5, each receiving $1.00
Quote:Originally posted by Rick G on November 13, 2004
Imagine if you went to a casino and every slot machine was just an LED readout of a random number instead of 7's, bars, cherries etc. on reels. Or if you went to a racetrack with no horses, just the announcer telling you the winner. Or if you sat down at a blackjack table without cards or dealer, a roulette table with no wheel or ball, but just LED readouts that say "you win" or "you lose". The gambler wants the full entertainment of the act, not just the final result. They want balls jumping, reels spinning, wheels turning, horses running, etc....the bells and whistles (the dvents leading to the outcome) are the fun of the game and hence the attraction.
It's like skipping the whole book and reading only the last chapter. And adding insult to injury they're not even going to show you the last chapter, they're just going to tell you how it ended. What kind of entertainment is that? The highlight of my day is to see the beautiful and perky Linda Kollmeier doing the IL draws using those good old fashioned bouncing ping pong balls. RNG's just don't affect me the same way and I would probably lose interest in the game.
I agree with rick.....you make a good point. I would not play in a state with a RGN lottery.
Quote:Originally posted by chuck32 on November 13, 2004
....I will bring up the comments here next time I get together with the directors and the talk turns to RNG's, but there many factors, and surveys of larger numbers of voices, that will be involved with the decision.
There are many people here who will be greatly appreciative of that - thanks!
By the way, you also have a number of Hot Lotto supporters here (including me), who would like to see that game expand to other jurisdictions.
For me I prefer the lottery to work they way it is supposed to with live hosts drawing balls. If the game doesn't make enough money to do it right then find another game, don't cheap'n it with a secret draw behind computer graphics.
I'd like to think the game is predictable to some extent and play as if it were. I would play differently or not at all if a computer drew the numbers.
The various lotteries need to understand the needs of their players and consider some groups such as lottery software and system users want a game they can believe in. As a store manager I knew 20% of the goods account for 80% of the sales, when you go into K-Mart those are the items they're always out of and they wonder why they end up in bankruptcy court. Same applies to the lottery, they need to keep the regular players happy as a base line even if they occasionally score huge sales with rollovers. BobP
I'm just waiting for Ohio to switch to an RNG....when they do, I'm done for good! I'm so fed up with losing the Pick 3/4 lottery that I have just about had enough! I can't even break even as it is, so if they move to RNG, I swear to god I will quit! Some people are addicted so bad that they will keep playing and this is what the lottery officials are counting on. Poor gambling addicts who can't stop playing.
I would NEVER consider playing anymore if I cant even view the drawings on tv. What kind of idiot would continue to play when the lottery won't even allow them to witness the drawing on tv? There won't be any such thing as "Hot/cold" digits anymore! So you can forget about using your systems.
This is the ultimate edge for the state just to make sure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer! And that nobody stands a chance of winning too often. This country is really getting screwed up in the last few years! And I'm sure it will get even worse now! Why play the daily lottery if you can't see the drawings on tv? It was good enough for the last 30 years or so. People are going to have to wake up and stand up against the lottery. DONT PLAY IT if they switch to RNG.
I mean really.....IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK???? Just to be able to see the daily numbers drawn on tv after Wheel of Fortune every night? I don't think this is too much to expect. The state expects me to spend money on their lottery (thats almost impossible to win) and now wants to give us all the shaft again. I cant believe the state doesn't think it has to show the drawings on tv anymore! If people don't have the guts to boycott the lottery then every state will be using electronic drawings in a few more months.
OK hears my take on RNG's. Say you have an RNG system in place. You have a central computer that spits out tickets random and people's choices. The data is stored on the central computer of all the numbers selected that day for pick 3, 4, and 5, drawings. The draw time is approximately 30 minutes after the cut off point. Now you have 30 minutes to doctor the rng to pay out a percentage of the take. The rng generator can receive a code or accept a program that will deselect any given amount of numbers and spit out a number that instead of paying out 3 million that day only selects the numbers so only 1 million is paid out. Who's to say that this won't happen or isn't happening already. Of course this is only one example of how it could be done. At least with balls we can see the drawing take place there are lots of people at the studio where the drawing takes place. Security measures in force.
I know you said there are no cables attached to the rng computer but these days we don't need cables. Code could be transmitted through the air. Then there's the all important person that programed the rng in the first place who's to say that he/she didn't include a programed date for a specific number to be drawn. Or multiple dates and different numbers. Then there's the person who will service the pc he/she could enter a program to do the same thing. And anyone else that might come to be in contact with the pc. Now you can have several programs all designed to favor a select group of people or person. So they might get a little or a lot of cash depending on whether or not they were successful in pulling this off.
Just another sad story---especially for the ppl of Wisconsin.
I just have 3 questions:
If these machines are stand-alone machines;
(1). Are they tied to the online system (For reading all combo's played throughout the State of Wisconsin) via Satlink?
(2). Will there be a televised display where the generated action can be viewed by the public?
(3). Would the public have access to the original documents and agreements in principle, as to a standard binding policy of drawing operations for the Director of Wisconsin's Lottery?
These people are doing whatever they want and no one is checking them on it.
lottoscorp ...
It really is bad ! Frankly, now I wonder what is the point in trying to use any kind of method at all for my state now?
If the RNGs are truly random, there will be no patterns to find. So there is nothing left but quickpicks if you want to play. I mean,. why waste valuable time and energy on it if there is nothing but truly random picks?
I should have figured. Wisconsin is the 3rd highest taxed state in the USA, and the state govt is the stingiest and tightest when it comes to letting the people have anything back.
Depressing......
Pooh! I know that there are some who suggest that RNGS are not as secure, but RNG's are actually much more secure. Mechanical drawing machines have certainly been compromised and it takes a lot less skill to get that done. Our group builds RNG's for lotteries - though we do it at cost and so promoting it to make a profit is truly not an issue here.
Our machines are TRUE RNG's, using unpredictable quantum decay to create the seed. The machines are locked up tight with no operator access to the OS. The results produced by the RNG are hashed and can be checked only by a program given to a third party. We put the electronics in a lighted clear case so that each component can be number-sealed and checked by an auditor. Finally, the whole thing (hardware and software) is tested and certified by GLI (the folks who are the premier testing firm in the slots/VLT industry).
There is lots more security and testing capabilities that I can't go into here, but nobody on this side wants to see a lottery scandal (since that would mean we would be doing something else - probably involving a Slurpy(TM) machine) and so we go to great effort to ensure that the drawings are fair.
this is really a sad day for all the lottery players in wisconsin, for all lottery players everywhere !!!!!
Your RNGs may be the best, but that's not the point. A hacker can get in - that's a fact. There is no such thing as a foolproof security system. Plus, humans are still involved in the drawing process, and that's always a big weak point. Just like the $1 million insider scam in Indiana this week.
It is not a simple technology issue as you seem to be suggesting.
I am the world's biggest supporter of technology (you can see I'm a propeller-head, having created this web site myself), so you cannot accuse me of being anti-RNG or anti-technology. I'm just looking out for what's best for the players.
Lottoscorp,
Wisconsin ceased televising any of its drawings at the beginning of the year. They claim it cost them too much. So now we get a "secret" drawing that only the lottery officials view, them they tell us what happened.
As far as them doing whatever they want....it's much the same as our politicians here. They seem to do whatever they want. ANd the people are getting highly pissed off !
I do agree that any computer system can be compromised (as can a mechanical system). It is a constant battle to study what has gone wrong and what might go wrong so that we can stay ahead of the bad guys. You are quite right that humans are a big problem. Even with our RNG, if the independent auditor, the lottery person (or persons for many states) and someone at the control ageny (in WI's case, the Department of Revenue) conspire together, they can put out a press release with any numbers as the winning numbers. Add in us or GLI and you could even have the RNG spit out a planned number. Of course, none of us can play and some someone else would have to collect the money - the issues go on and on.
As I tell players who write to ask how they can be assured that lottery games are fair - you can't, unless you plan to attend every drawing and stand at every computer site at all times (and have the knowledge to know what you are observing). The best that an average player can do is to trust the independent auditors (and their insurance companies who will pay in the dvent of fraud or negligence), the system and procedural audits done by third parties, and the fact that multiple persons would be required to compromise the system (in the end, most humans also talk or get greedy).
As you know, Todd, we also run mechanical drawings for lotteries too. We go to great effort to ensure that those are fair (I don't think I would be exagerating to say that they are the most secure mechanical drawings on the planet), but I would rather put my faith in the RNG.
I do know that since most people have lots of experience with computers, they know that computers can fail and can be compromised - but I suspect that players can also figure out ways to compromise a mechanical drawing. Our RNG is designed a little differently than others. We don't rely on secure programming alone, but take the view that any computer program can be hacked. Our RNG's are designed to be treated like a mechanical draw machine. They are built (hardware and software) by more than one person, then thoroughly tested by an independent lab (code is examined), sealed and delivered to a lottery that does more testing. Like mechanical machines, they are locked up and accessed only by a minimum of two persons from different firms (usually more with lottery, audit firm, and some kind of outside security officer). I think this is key. We don't put all of our faith in a secure computer program alone. Like a mechanical drawing machine, the system must never be available to a single person. Even though we are extremly confident that no one can compromise it if they did have single access, we simply know better than to use words like ALWAYS, NEVER, etc. We must assume that someone is always smarter.
In the end, if the RNG's are properly built, tested, and secured (just like must be the case with a mechanical machine), then they can be even more secure. Just about anyone off the street, given access, can come up with a way to compromise a mechanical system. An RNG requires much more skill (and I assume that someone out there can find a way to beat security, given enough time).
To answer a previous question, the machines are not connected to the outside. They exist and operated in a locked room with no external connections.
-Chuck
By the way, Chuck, good to have you on board. Too many in the industry treat the players in a very disconnected manner, and you are always very open and communicative - and sensitive to the feelings of the players. I'm sure others here would agree.
I'm sure this issue will not go away for a long time - if ever. There will always be players who do not like computerized drawings. There is also a large block of players who don't care either way.
I guess my main sticking points boil down to:
The bottom line is that I really don't see the burning need to go to computerized drawings - even if some people think it's "technically" better. Other people feel the same way. Therefore, the logical extension of this thought is that if there is no burning need to transition, then why are the lotteries really doing it? Does it give them room to hide something?
Again, I am not someone prone to conspiracy theories (as any regular visitor here would tell you), but this is what runs through players' minds.
Giving a human response (rather than the corporate response) can sometimes get you into trouble - though not as much as I might have thought. I can think of only a few times that players ended up threatening me or sending a note of complaint to a governor somewhere. And I did get several hate mails (from all over the world) following my recent criticsim of the moralists in Idaho who are teaching children about the sin of the lottery. But, generally, people do respond better to a "real" response. We did have someone else writing for a while - using the standard corporate response ("Thanks for writing and for taking the time to ask a question. If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask.") - but it just wasn't working (though we never had one complaint).
Your point that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good one. You would be surprised, though how important these "little dollars" can be. A lottery can bring in hundreds of millions for a state and still have a legislature or governor cut a few hundred dollars for a trip to pick up a new idea. Especially in these times, lotteries see their budgets cut all the time. A $100k here and and there, as they say, can add up to real money. Remember that last year, one state dropped lottery ad dollars to $0. Another state prohibits any lottery action that encourages people to play. And, of course, lotteries frequently run up against legislators who believe that all you have to do to increase profits is to cut the prize payout percentage.
You also make a good point about players being able to "observe" a mechanical drawing. They can go in and watch the RNG being operated too, but I agree that people have a perception that they are able to judge a mechanical drawing as fair. Of course, only .00000001% of the players actually attend a drawing (I just looked that number up!).
I'm glad that players feel comfortable with mechanical draws. I can understand that perception, but , of course, the real security issues are no different. With just a little more conspiracy theory paranoia <G>, one can pretty quickly dismiss a mechanical drawing too. In the end, as you say, the players will ultimately control what a lottery will do.
Whew! Am I ever verbose. Time to get back to work.
I've heard it said by someone before that the balls have no memory and you can't predicted what will occur. Now that computers are picking the numbers, they do now.
If there are any lottery program developers out there reading in on this, you need to revise your probability theory, statistical analysis, and calculated predictions. Computers can only simulate real world conditions; for this, there is a possibility that trends that once exsisted in the natural world may now be enhanced by the narrow view of the virtual world. Also, it has now become the players responsibility to audit the randomness of the lottery draw dvent. Developers should exploit this fact to whatever ends and means they see fit.
Jade,
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If a computer program is developed to pick lottery combos, how could any trends even exist? To make it as simple as possible, say there are a thousand possible combinations. The computer could simply generate a whole number from 1 to 1,000...then count down the list of all combinations, and voila ; it spits out the combination that is "x" number of combinations down the list.
The next day it does the same thing, but with a different generated whole number from 1 to 1,000. It could be ANY generated whole number; there is nothing at all to tie it to a previous "drawing" at all...it is just a completely random generated whole number ; unrelated to anything else.
How can there even BE any trends?
BTW-- since lotteries are now more and more using computers, they should stop calling them "drawings". There is nothing being "drawn". They should call them something ese that more accurately reflects what they are really doing.
Badger
Quoting Badger:
"Ever notice when you put the words "The IRS" together, it spells THEIRS ?"
No I have not, but it is pretty funny though.
I'll bring it up again. Approximately 1987-1989 The Connecticut Lottery ran into a little trouble with their Pick3 drawing. Appearantly, everyone in the State and surrounding States played "555" or "513" on a May 5th or on a Friday the 13th. (Criscross) and Connecticut had to borrow an additional $80 Million+ Dollars to compensate those winners. I clearly remember the Director of the Lottery (About that time.) Stating: That will never happen again in a Hartford Current Newspaper. I knew then that a change was in the mix. If I could only recover that article or the column heading of that article, you would see that it said a lot because, it stood out like dust on a white glove.
Mr Chuck32. Would it be fair to say that, there is a strong possibility, out of 1000 pick3 combinations, (Keeping in mind that the lotteries are about generating revenue regardless of what that revenus is supporting.) the combination with the least amounts wagered (Meaning you are simply buying 3 numbers for an anticipated drawing.) along with being, insinct with the running numbers for the week are likely to draw?
I am asking that due to, some of the States posting their counts of winners on their top payout (Pick3 & Pick4 prizes.) such as, California, New York and Pennsylvania. Also, I am asking based on past political scams in the past regarding the lotteries. It has always been my belief that there are a lot of electronic and magnectic micro devices that can be attached to balls though that issue has never arrived in that past. This is no personal attack on you, it is just a matter of inquiring minds would like to know.
lottoscorp ...
Lottoscorp: As far as Wisconsin is concerned, weather you are for or against computerized drawings, the very idea of keeping the drawing out of the publics view, should warrant a boycott of the games by the public. A one week boycott should get the message across. Think of your money not spent on the lottery as a saving for Christmas presents for the family.
pegleg
My objection to computer drawings is the possibility that the computers will have a network card buried in the software. Using wireless technology, the computer could, during the 30 minutes between the time sales are halted and the drawing, scan a nearby lottery computer and come up with winning numbers that would minimize lottery losses.
Despite multiple shielding, almost all electronic devices have unwanted and sometimes compromising radiation, even when the device is operated within a screen room.
No such problems exists with mechanical drawing machines.
A question for chuck32: How can lottery players know with confidence that a computer RNG has no means whatever of consulting with other computers via wireless connection?
Also, do the RNGs you speak of have a memory? My understanding is that RNGs used to issue Quick Picks don't have memories. These devices are known to issue the same set of numbers to more than one player.
Finally, I hope you aren't one of the computer companies trying to make an extra buck by selling computer RNGs to the Texas Lottery.
Ms. Fluff and Mr. Confusion have taken up residence here at 888 Lottery Post Way. They have been throwing some well funded parties and creating alot of noise. Their objective is to upset and create doubt in the minds of the other residence. However, there are other tenants living here that see through their plan, Ms. Truth and Mr. Fact. Although there may be no eviction by managment, there will be a 'virtual' eviction in the minds of the other residence.
I think a player can "know with confidence" (as opposed to knowing absolutely) by understanding the process. Though not exactly the same, both mechanical and RNG's have similar issues. Most players can feel comfortable knowing that the RNG is designed and built by one company, then torn apart and reviewed by highly skilled independent testing firms and is then evaluated again by the lottery and/or audit firm. All components are examined to ensure that no wireless capability exists.
RNG drawings are open to the public so that they can observe the process. One might argue that it is hard to determine what is going on inside a computer, but without X-ray vision a player can't really tell what might be inserted into drawing balls either (or one of a hundred other methods of compromising a system).
In the end, confidence can only reasonbly be had by understanding the process and knowing that multiple skilled persons are involved in checking the systems. For mechanical draws, the equipment is built, then examined and tested by lottery staff and an accounting firm. For RNG's - because the system is more complicated - the system is also examined and tested by a firm skilled in evaluating electronic systems before being examined and tested again by the lottery and audit firm. The auditors are present for every drawing (under both systems) and with an RNG, our system adds a security feature to allow yet another independent entity to audit every set of numbers drawn. Other RNG systems have slightly different methods of auditing the results but they all have the same goal.
We have not worked with TX. I know they were out for bid, but I'm not sure where they stand now.
The RNG's do not remember past numbers selected. The RNG's in the lottery terminals are pseudo-RNG's but they also do not remember past numbers selected. I have known of problems with terminal RNG's. While they are generally designed (at least today) to produce results that cannot be shown to be non-random (there is no test to prove randomness), they are not at the same level as a drawing RNG. In the case of a quick pick, there are TWO random dvents occuring (the ticket buy and the drawing). As long as one side is fair, then the game is fair.
In a Pick-4 game drawn with ping-pong balls, I know for a fact that my overall odds of winning are 1 in 10 X 10 X 10 X 10 = 10,000. In a Pick-3 game using the same method, I can see that my odds are 1 in 10 X 10 X 10 = 1,000.
Looking at a computerized random number generator, how would I do the math?
People of Wisconsin, keep a very close eye on your upcoming payouts, especially in your daily games. Now that your state has decided that the integrity of the game isn't worth the comparitively few dollars it would cost them to keep the game in public view, your payouts will drop dramatically. In fiscal year 2000, the first year Indiana used their RNG, they lost $100,000,000.00 in sales. That's one hundred million dollars they lost in order to save eighty thousand (their figures).
In my opinion, the ONLY reason any state would opt to switch to a computerized RNG is that it makes the games far easier to manipulate, especially when there's no televised drawing. Not to cast a shadow on the good people at Gaming Labs, International, but they certified our RNG, too. This is supposed to make us feel better, but they have no control over the integrity of that machine once it leaves their site, and it's obvious to many of us that Indiana's RNG has been compromised. How else can they explain average daily payouts of under $5,000.00 in a state with six million people???
The Hoosier Lottery is about to come tumbling down. Maybe the coming slaughter of our own lottery officials will give other states something to think about.
I tell everybody everywhere right now that it does not whatsoever matters what system(s) the state lotteries use for their draws, 100% sure that it does not matter at all, "if" the state lotteries have been, are or will, "FIX" their draws, they would, regardless of any drawing method(s) used, in spite of you, me (I) and or everybody else anywhere, I am of course not saying at all, that the lottery draws have been, are and or will be "FIXED", just that if they were to be, they would be regardless of any drawing method(s) and or system(s) used, all in-spite of anything and everything, no matter what, They say "Money talks", I say "Money does".
So never worry about the computers or whatever else, what will be done will be done, no matter what you, or I do.
I am NOT a pro-state lottery person and I tell you that I am 100% sure that in the end it does not matter what drawing method is used.
But that does not mean that people will never win, people can still win once in a while, some more and some less.
No matter what the state lotteries do, some people will win using their intuition and others by finding "Loopholes" in the game.
They say that it's a game of chance, so some will win by chance, some by intuition and others by technique, those who do by sytems always have to change and improve to stay ahead.
As a few of you are aware, this winning thing can only be for sure on the pick 3 no matter what the state lotteries might do to keep people from winning, but with the pick 4 and the other games, yes you (we) don't have to win and yes if they want and they do, they can sure keep as from winning and they do.
The pick 3 is the only game in which you can still win sometimes yes no matter what the state lotteries do or might do, they can make it very hard and they can keep you and they do, from win ning often, but they can't keep you from winning sometimes.
There is intuition and there are also a few loop-holes, if you want and really try as some people do, you can get to know the pick 3 game more and better than any state lottery person does anywhere, that does not mean winning every-time, but perhaps winning more often.
We are all trying in some way or other and the state lottery people also do.
Don't worry about how the numbers are drawn, it's futile.
Nothing is 100% random, nothing and there are always some patterns, allways in spite and despite the state lotteries, there will always be some patterns, they will change and do, but there will always be patterns, you just have to be very much more flexable and sharper and more intuitive.
The patterns will always be there no matter what, they will just change a lot and drive you crazy, but they will never go away, they can't this is where observation and intuition comes into practice.
There will always be techniques for winning the pick 3, they just have to be adjusted or readjusted every so often and or changed, but the holes in the game wil never go away, they can't, as soon as one hole is closed another opens up, it will always happen and always has.
A person just needs to stay ahead.
Lantern, I disagree. It DOES matter how the numbers are drawn.
Interesting. PegLeg I guess it is hard to bring my next point across without stepping on some toes but, A power strategy one that embraces the direct dynamics of the drawings is what we should be looking at. Chuck32 I thank you for your Pa displays of quads but, I am left with the impression, most people play triples & quads (Those less knowledgeable.) because they either have an attraction for them or the numbers are easier, to select.
Ah Yes, Mr. LANTERN. It doesn't matter how the numbers are drawn, RNG or Balls. I have researched the lottery long enough to know that each lottery is limited only to the designs of the games they are running. Odds are only an issue when you don't win. I like to know how the war was won before, the battle begins. That is how I approach any Lottery. But, this is not about me. Now morally, it matters how the numbers are drawn. A lot of you or even all of you at one point or another, have won the lottery. The public eye should always be in play. And it should not be up to the Corporate Game Developers or Politicians, to decide on their own merrit or view that they are honest and historically, we already know their track records.
lottoscorp ...
yes. before PA finaly drew a triple and a quad in their mid-day drawing, there was a lot of speculaton as to whether or not their mid-day drawings were rigged. with computerized drawings, integrity and fairness of the drawings will come into question, especially when there have been states that have released their results too soon, and take a long time from the cutoff to draw the numbers. i should hope that powerball or mega millions never sinks low enough to go to an RNG. the MUSL already does it with wild card 2 and 2 by 2. judging by sales figures, RNGs are not welcome in American lotteries because sales WILL drop if a state changes to an RNG for the drawings.
Chuck32, I stand corrected. But I do not believe Connecticut had that "Sales Stop" feature back then. I wouldn't be surprised if they were using that feature in their on-line system now. Like increasing numbers, (balls) I can see Powerball or USAMega doing it, they are a Multi-State Lottery. I cannot see the States doing it. They don't really need to do it. Now there, the size of a playing-population comes into play as an issue. Truth, I suspect the public is becoming too smart with the technology in use, and they are running out of ideas, on how to stay on top of it all. There are plenty of organizations that are about protecting lotteries such as, NASPL www.naspl.org .You will find these individuals to be very interesting in their views.
lottoscorp ...
Lotteries don't care what their customers want. Hence no televized drawings. They will only care when the first scandal happens that the numbers weren't random and someone cheated. The extreme negative effect that would have on their bottom line would force them to go back to televized ball drawings. Short of that I think all drawings will be out of the public eye and computerized soon.
this is kind of scary for illinois also.i mean that wisconsin is right around the corner from illinois.if they were to do that here i would stop playing all together.illinois is corrupt enough can u imagine mayor daley and his friends running the lottery this way.look we are the people and we have the power to stop any corporation.all we have to do as people is not to by there products.everyone in wisconsin or at least 50 percent of the people there should stop playing the lottery just for one day.i bet u will see instant changes.then if one day doesnt work then do it once every other day untill your demands are met.remember that the lottery is not like the gasoline problem.we need gas to go, to and from work and so forth.we dont need the lottery for anything more than entertainment purposes,you could really say that the lottery and the state need us!!!!!!!!!!!!
Imagine if you went to a casino and every slot machine was just an LED readout of a random number instead of 7's, bars, cherries etc. on reels. Or if you went to a racetrack with no horses, just the announcer telling you the winner. Or if you sat down at a blackjack table without cards or dealer, a roulette table with no wheel or ball, but just LED readouts that say "you win" or "you lose". The gambler wants the full entertainment of the act, not just the final result. They want balls jumping, reels spinning, wheels turning, horses running, etc....the bells and whistles (the dvents leading to the outcome) are the fun of the game and hence the attraction.
It's like skipping the whole book and reading only the last chapter. And adding insult to injury they're not even going to show you the last chapter, they're just going to tell you how it ended. What kind of entertainment is that? The highlight of my day is to see the beautiful and perky Linda Kollmeier doing the IL draws using those good old fashioned bouncing ping pong balls. RNG's just don't affect me the same way and I would probably lose interest in the game.
Of course, most slots these days are RNG's with a pretty graphics engine. Not sure how many true mechanical reels are out there anymore. I'm meeting with the major slots vendors next week and will try to remember to ask. Most lottery RNG's are also capable of high-end graphic output. Oddly, many output computer-generated ball drawing machines, for those few people who still whatch lottery drawings on TV.
Triples and Quads not imaginative? The most popular lotto numbers for nearly every state are 1-2-3-4-5-6. Sometimes 5-10-15-20-25-30 comes close; then lines on the playslip (diagonals, etc.); followed by whatever numbers a popular lottery column might be predicting. They do have the same chance as any other number, of course, just a lot of sharing going on.
Lotteries certainly do care about what their players want. As has been pointed out: No lottery players, no lottery. But to the extent that they can, lotteries have to run like a business. If no one is watching the drawings and the TV stations are starting to charge to air the drawings, it may be reasonable to move to the web. Players have their say all of the time. Great concepts like giving away $1 million a day to anyone who matches the numbers (no sharing like other lottery games) failed when players rejected Daily Millions. In research, players swore they would love that game. But I digress.
Let your lottery know of your feelings about RNG's, and they will listen and make a decision based on their business interests. Just do give it a little thought first. Do mechanical drawings guarantee fairness? Do RNG's guarantee fraud? To take a tactic from political candidates - no RNG has every been shown to be fraudulent and all of the lottery frauds in the world have involved mechanical draws (great fun with statistics).
Chuck,
You're correct about the slot machines. Even the ones that have spinning wheels are actually precisely controlled by computer.
The "listening to lottery players" topic is always an interesting one, because I always wonder what players they're listening to. For example, the state of Pennsylvania recently came up with the much-maligned Match 6 game - based on "player input". I personally don't think any normal lottery player could possibly conceive of that mess. I think they heard "we want more prizes" and translated that thought into a twisting maze of confusing prizes. Sure, there are more prizes, but I guarantee lots of winning tickets get thrown away because it's so hard to figure out if you won.
Maybe the lottery directors out there should interact with players in a real forum like this one - where everyone can see what the actual input is. There are some good state lottery people who do lurk here and do listen to what people say, but the number is too small. The people here are the types of players who play every day - just the type of player that the lottery should be listening to.
On your last point, I hope you're right. I hope they really do listen to the players. Your point about where fraud has taken place is correct, but you didn't point out the other major point of fraud: the people. There have been a few instances of mechanical fraud, but the majority of fraud cases have been insider jobs - just like the recent Indiana case. IMHO, computerized drawings create a more furtile ground for these types of fraud cases, because the average person observing a computerized drawing has absolutely no idea if they are looking at fraud. In fact, malicious code could be hidden for quite a long time before anyone would notice.
I just think the lotteries should address these points in an open and honest way. (And I think they should stick with the mechanical machines.) In some cases they claim to have done studies, but I've never seen anything. All the polls here have been very anti-computerized drawings.
Todd,
I was having a little fun with the comment about fraud and mechanicals. Of course, RNG's haven't been around long enough to get much history and they are happening at a time when the drawing process has become extremely controlled. It certainly is people who commit the fraud - and the reason that the process, rather than the method, is the key to having a fair drawing. I agree that there is just something about a mechanical drawing - kind of like watching the needle drop on a spinning LP or feeding the tape and watching the big reels turning on a reel-to-reel (wish I had kept that). I miss that too but sending music from CD's or MP3's to the house stereo system is more convenient and gives me much greater control on the mix I want to hear.
Note when I say that lotteries listen to players and I don't mean that they will always do everything that EVERY player wants. PA's Match 6 is an example of a new design that is criticized but is doing pretty well. Last I looked, they were close to 20 cents per week. Those are considered good numbers for a little game these days. It is those voting dollars that are key. Still, a very few letters that make it to a lottery director can have an unproportionate effect. I will bring up the comments here next time I get together with the directors and the talk turns to RNG's, but there many factors, and surveys of larger numbers of voices, that will be involved with the decision.
Very true. Here is the PA Cash 5 from earlier this year:
There are many people here who will be greatly appreciative of that - thanks!
By the way, you also have a number of Hot Lotto supporters here (including me), who would like to see that game expand to other jurisdictions.
For me I prefer the lottery to work they way it is supposed to with live hosts drawing balls. If the game doesn't make enough money to do it right then find another game, don't cheap'n it with a secret draw behind computer graphics.
I'd like to think the game is predictable to some extent and play as if it were. I would play differently or not at all if a computer drew the numbers.
The various lotteries need to understand the needs of their players and consider some groups such as lottery software and system users want a game they can believe in. As a store manager I knew 20% of the goods account for 80% of the sales, when you go into K-Mart those are the items they're always out of and they wonder why they end up in bankruptcy court. Same applies to the lottery, they need to keep the regular players happy as a base line even if they occasionally score huge sales with rollovers. BobP
I'm just waiting for Ohio to switch to an RNG....when they do, I'm done for good! I'm so fed up with losing the Pick 3/4 lottery that I have just about had enough! I can't even break even as it is, so if they move to RNG, I swear to god I will quit! Some people are addicted so bad that they will keep playing and this is what the lottery officials are counting on. Poor gambling addicts who can't stop playing.
I would NEVER consider playing anymore if I cant even view the drawings on tv. What kind of idiot would continue to play when the lottery won't even allow them to witness the drawing on tv? There won't be any such thing as "Hot/cold" digits anymore! So you can forget about using your systems.
This is the ultimate edge for the state just to make sure that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer! And that nobody stands a chance of winning too often. This country is really getting screwed up in the last few years! And I'm sure it will get even worse now! Why play the daily lottery if you can't see the drawings on tv? It was good enough for the last 30 years or so. People are going to have to wake up and stand up against the lottery. DONT PLAY IT if they switch to RNG.
I mean really.....IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK???? Just to be able to see the daily numbers drawn on tv after Wheel of Fortune every night? I don't think this is too much to expect. The state expects me to spend money on their lottery (thats almost impossible to win) and now wants to give us all the shaft again. I cant believe the state doesn't think it has to show the drawings on tv anymore! If people don't have the guts to boycott the lottery then every state will be using electronic drawings in a few more months.
Me too about Hot Lotto, even if it switches to RNG draws.
no way no how would i play a pick 5/6/ Rng game. Bad enought they do it with pick 3 and 4 in many places now.
We see the future...