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Random Generation of Quickpicks

Topic closed. 22 replies. Last post 10 years ago by justxploring.

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Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
Chief Bottle Washer
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Posted: January 20, 2007, 10:57 am - IP Logged

Todd, my question to you is? Instead of signing a petition to eliminate computerized drawings, why not go on the legality of the game being rigged? What I mean is this: if any game of any type is seeded then it's rigged! Below is a quote from that past posting in that thread above.

This is actually a pretty technical subject.  Basically speaking, in the world of computers, there is no way possible to create a truly random number.  Computers are built to be precise machines, and randomness is the exact opposite.

So in order to generate a "random" number, the computer is programmed to start with a particular number (called the "seed" number), and then perform a whole bunch of mathematical calculations, such that the resultant number appears to be random.  However, if you were to perform enough of these "randomizer" calculations on that number, you would begin to see a pattern develop.  That's because like I said above, computers are very precise machines and cannot truly generate random numbers.

To minimize the effects of this pattern effect, the lottery machines (and any good random number generator) will keep changing the seed number so that there are so many "random patterns" in play that it is mathematically insignificant.  That's what the MN lottery means in the quote above.

Good luck!
-Todd

 

With that said, why would we just sign a petition to eliminate computerized drawings? Why not go on the legal stand point that the game has been seeded/rigged! Any game that has a predetermined out come is considered rigged! That's just like you or me if we were good enough to manipulate cards while shuffling the deck, we could make it to where our friend could be the top winner of that game or hand. That's called stacking the deck or seeding the deck is it not? So to put it plainly, we the people who have states that run computerized drawings are legally being cheated by our state or to put it more bluntly by our elected officials who allow it to happen! I guess this would a very sticky subject as to what the legality of the word seeding would actually mean when it comes to computerized gaming of any kind!

I basically agree with you, but the reality is that taking such a stand would require taking the government to court, which is something even Donald Trump would have a tough time doing.  The government has unlimited resources at their disposal.

I think a much better approach is to force them to act by imforming the public of what they are doing with these computerized drawings, and they will be forced to act to counter decreasing revenues.

 

Check the State Lottery Report Card
What grade did your lottery earn?

 

Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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    NY
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    Posted: January 20, 2007, 11:01 am - IP Logged

    "If you think the lottery is engaged in some kind of conspiracy you're only reasonable choices are to become part of the conspiracy or stop buying tickets."  KY Floyd

    Conspiracy? Where did I speak of a conspiracy??  In over 1,300 posts I don't think I ever said I thought there was some big conspiracy or that the lottery was fixed.  Please don't confuse me with other posters or (as they say on Law & Order) assume things not in evidence.

    I was simply asking a question about the generation of quick picks at the store terminals vs a central computer or computers for the state.  I always thought this board was to raise subjects for discussion that might be of interest.  I totally agree that the population has something to do with the amount of tickets being won in an area.  Didn't I say that when I wrote:  "I realize the population of a large city has a lot to do with the amount of tickets purchased, which obviously has an effect on the percentage of winners from that area." However, some cities (like Miami) seem to have an inordinate amount of winners. 

    Anyway, vt8366a mentioned the calibration of the terminals.  That's interesting. 

    I know you didn't say anything about a conspiracy, and the "you" was a generic "you". Just because my response was about your question doesn't mean it was limited only to what you specifically asked. We both know that a few people here see a lot more black helicopters than the rest of us. Either QPs are generated randomly or they aren't, and the lotteries say that they're random. I've got no reason to disbelieve that, but some people have suggested that lottery terminals across the country are telling the main computers which numbers will result in the biggest payout.  There are a few things that could explain most winning tickets being sold in only a few areas. I'm pretty sure it's a simple matter of where most people buy tickets, but asking if where you buy your tickets matters implicitly involves  the possibility that something else is involved. I was simply making an observation about what seems to me to be the only logical decision for those don't believe the lottery is right and QP's are essentially random.

      Rick G's avatar - avatar 1766.jpg
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      Posted: January 20, 2007, 11:09 am - IP Logged

      How many of us have a routine where we go to a convenience store daily to get coffee, smokes, a sandwich or a newspaper?  I do, and that is the most convenient place and time to buy a lottery ticket  as part of a daily routine.  Same with liquor stores...usually most of their customers are daily repeats.  Gas stations and grocery stores don't have too many daily repeat customers.  Those seem to be spur of the moment ticket purchases.

      In my neck of the woods we have a lot of White Hens...two within a two minute drive.  But I don't get my lottery tickets there because the franchisee has to give some of the winnings to the parent company. 

      Posted 4/6:  IL Pick 3 midday and evening until they hit:  555, 347 (str8).


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        Posted: January 20, 2007, 11:17 am - IP Logged

        I'm sorry about the statement "Any game that has a predetermined out come is considered rigged!" When referring to the lottery and RNG that is use for the lottery! I apologize.

         I was think ahead about the slot machines that have a computer chip inside them. The discovery channel had some thing a while back about Vegas and the slot machines! Every time a slot handle is pulled or a button is pushed and the wheels spin, by the time the last wheel is done spinning the out come of the next pull of the machines handle is already determined! That means it has already determined if your going to win a few coins or the jackpot or that next spin of the wheels is going to be a spin for a loss of the wager! And that goes for the video poker machines also. The hands that are dealt are also predetermined if they are winning hands or ones that are a losing hand! Now that is really being cheated out of a wager by playing a computerized machine!

        Unless winning results are discarded, what does it matter when the results are generated? You pull a handle and  you win or you lose. As long as the results are random,  you win or lose based on the probability of the possible results.

        As far as your statement that "any game that has a predetermined out come is considered rigged," exactly what does "predetermined out come" mean? In any game of chance the long term outcome is predetermined. The lottery will earn a profit of about 50% before expenses, and the casinos will see a  smaller, but known, profit margin. The results for any individual chance isn't predetermined.

        What about scratch off tickets? Those are winners or losers the instant they're printed, probably a minimum of a month before you have a chance to buy them. Does that make the outcome predetermined? How does that differ from a slot machine that generates the next result before the handle is pulled?

        I'm not sure if your apology also menas you no longer think there's a realistic legal challenge to using RNG's. The seeding in random number generators doesn't mean the outcome is predertermined any more than limiting PB drawings to a certain set of numbers means that PB is rigged.  Because the RNG process uses mathematical calculations it obviously has to have something to start with.  All that  really matters is whether or not the outcome is random, and as a practical matter it is.

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          Posted: January 20, 2007, 11:31 am - IP Logged

          How many of us have a routine where we go to a convenience store daily to get coffee, smokes, a sandwich or a newspaper?  I do, and that is the most convenient place and time to buy a lottery ticket  as part of a daily routine.  Same with liquor stores...usually most of their customers are daily repeats.  Gas stations and grocery stores don't have too many daily repeat customers.  Those seem to be spur of the moment ticket purchases.

          In my neck of the woods we have a lot of White Hens...two within a two minute drive.  But I don't get my lottery tickets there because the franchisee has to give some of the winnings to the parent company. 

          That's  my take on why we see so many winners from convenience stores. I know I've gotten my tickets at the grocery store at least once, but I'm not sure I've gotten them there more than that.  I get gas and I grab my bet slip on the way in to pay, or I stop whle passing a convenience store and I'm in and out. The parking lot is smaller, the store is smaller, and the whole process is faster.

          Personally, I'm a true believer  that the lottery is random, so my only criteria for where I buy tickets is that it's someplace  convenient.  I don't go any further out of my way than I have to. Not  everybody  thinks that way, and I can promise that if a store sells 1000 tickets this week and one of them wins a jackpot the store will sell a lot more than 1000 tickets next week. No matter how you look at it, it can be explained by how many tickest are sold. % of winners named Bob? About the same as % of buyers named Bob. % of winners who use a Gail Howard system?  Yup, same % as the buyers who use a Gail Howard system. Number of winners who got their ticket at a White Hen? You guessed it.

          As far as what the franchisee gets from a winning ticket, how much will they get if you win but bought your ticket elsewhere? he guy who  owns the McDonald's across from the White Hen also pays moeny to the MCDonalds corporation, but I promise he thinks he has a good deal. If you prefer to shop at  locally owned place that makes perfect sense to me, but if you'll buy other stuff at White hen, but not lottery tickets that doesn't.

            Rick G's avatar - avatar 1766.jpg
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            Posted: January 20, 2007, 12:08 pm - IP Logged

            That's  my take on why we see so many winners from convenience stores. I know I've gotten my tickets at the grocery store at least once, but I'm not sure I've gotten them there more than that.  I get gas and I grab my bet slip on the way in to pay, or I stop whle passing a convenience store and I'm in and out. The parking lot is smaller, the store is smaller, and the whole process is faster.

            Personally, I'm a true believer  that the lottery is random, so my only criteria for where I buy tickets is that it's someplace  convenient.  I don't go any further out of my way than I have to. Not  everybody  thinks that way, and I can promise that if a store sells 1000 tickets this week and one of them wins a jackpot the store will sell a lot more than 1000 tickets next week. No matter how you look at it, it can be explained by how many tickest are sold. % of winners named Bob? About the same as % of buyers named Bob. % of winners who use a Gail Howard system?  Yup, same % as the buyers who use a Gail Howard system. Number of winners who got their ticket at a White Hen? You guessed it.

            As far as what the franchisee gets from a winning ticket, how much will they get if you win but bought your ticket elsewhere? he guy who  owns the McDonald's across from the White Hen also pays moeny to the MCDonalds corporation, but I promise he thinks he has a good deal. If you prefer to shop at  locally owned place that makes perfect sense to me, but if you'll buy other stuff at White hen, but not lottery tickets that doesn't.

            I get all my "daily routine" stuff at a mom and pop convenience store.  Great owners and their prices are competitive with a supermarket, unlike White Hen.  Just came back from there with a 20 oz. coffee that cost .79 compared to White Hen's buck and a half.

            Posted 4/6:  IL Pick 3 midday and evening until they hit:  555, 347 (str8).


              Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg
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              Posted: January 20, 2007, 1:12 pm - IP Logged

               But Rick, there's a rumor going around that when Linda Kollmeyer isn't calling the numbers she hangs out at a White Hen!

              Scared
               

              Those who run the lotteries love it when players look for consistency in something that's designed not to have any.

              Lep

              There is one and only one 'proven' system, and that is to book the action. No matter the game, let the players pick their own losers.

                justxploring's avatar - villiarna
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                Posted: January 20, 2007, 1:51 pm - IP Logged

                 But Rick, there's a rumor going around that when Linda Kollmeyer isn't calling the numbers she hangs out at a White Hen!

                Scared
                 

                Coin Toss, are you eggsactly sure of that?  (groan)

                 

                I didn't know this thread was going to begin a debate on randomness, but since it has, I don't think the lottery can be random in its purest sense for the reasons already quoted. That doesn't mean it's rigged or there is a conspiracy either.  What can be really random?  Haven't you ever purchased 2 of the same device (a tv or a computer) and one has more problems than the other? 

                I guess I still can't put into words what I was trying to say when I began this topic. I believe some of the above comments definitely address some of the issues however.  Interesting that Rick knows a store that sells very few winning tickets and has even complained about it. So that says to me the owner must also wonder the same thing like "is it the terminal?" That said, whether everything is 100% random or not, but the draws have absolutely no effect whatsoever on the tickets purchased, then maybe we need to look at what is "fair" as opposed to what is random.  Maybe random doesn't belong in a game that uses computers so much, just whether or not each player no matter where he lives and buys tickets has an equal chance of winning.