Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: April 6, 2007, 6:43 pm - IP Logged

I'll like for you all to read what's in bold....I got this information from ORION Products, for what it looks is a company that specializes in products for encryption...

I'll like you to read this excerpt from their website, specially what's in color blue:

"Random Number Generators are generating numbers in a sequence in such away that the next number has no relation with the previous numbers. There are software routines that may generate these numbers but these only approach the ideal of independence between the subsequent numbers because they still use an algorithm to calculate the next number from the previous one. There are several of these algorithms and it is difficult, though in principle not impossible, to assess from the numbers which algorithm is used."

What you can learn from this paragraph is that even though there are several algorithms that generate the random numbers, it is possible to assess (determine) from the numbers spit out from the RNG, which algorithm is been used....This also prove that a computer that draws the numbers will be EASIER to crack than the bouncing lotto balls machine...Also, i believe it would take lots of calculations or lots of formulas to determine which algorithm the RnG uses, something that could easily be done with lots of computing power, like a supercomputer...

United States Member #4877 May 30, 2004 5120 Posts Offline

Posted: April 6, 2007, 11:12 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by pumpi76 on April 6, 2007

I'll like for you all to read what's in bold....I got this information from ORION Products, for what it looks is a company that specializes in products for encryption...

I'll like you to read this excerpt from their website, specially what's in color blue:

"Random Number Generators are generating numbers in a sequence in such away that the next number has no relation with the previous numbers. There are software routines that may generate these numbers but these only approach the ideal of independence between the subsequent numbers because they still use an algorithm to calculate the next number from the previous one. There are several of these algorithms and it is difficult, though in principle not impossible, to assess from the numbers which algorithm is used."

What you can learn from this paragraph is that even though there are several algorithms that generate the random numbers, it is possible to assess (determine) from the numbers spit out from the RNG, which algorithm is been used....This also prove that a computer that draws the numbers will be EASIER to crack than the bouncing lotto balls machine...Also, i believe it would take lots of calculations or lots of formulas to determine which algorithm the RnG uses, something that could easily be done with lots of computing power, like a supercomputer...

pumpi76.................Psykomo>>>>

Agrees with UU

Several................(more than two people) & sum of my friend's are

building a supercomputer................they bought a large older metal

building & "R" linking a large number of PC's..................TOGETHER!

The big cost$$$$$ has been getting the building insulated & HVAC completed (they have chosen to complete HVAC,....last).................

NO PROBLEM finding..........1000's of OLD computers & people who

want to work on this..........>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PROJECT!!

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7310 Posts Offline

Posted: April 8, 2007, 12:47 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by pumpi76 on April 6, 2007

I'll like for you all to read what's in bold....I got this information from ORION Products, for what it looks is a company that specializes in products for encryption...

I'll like you to read this excerpt from their website, specially what's in color blue:

"Random Number Generators are generating numbers in a sequence in such away that the next number has no relation with the previous numbers. There are software routines that may generate these numbers but these only approach the ideal of independence between the subsequent numbers because they still use an algorithm to calculate the next number from the previous one. There are several of these algorithms and it is difficult, though in principle not impossible, to assess from the numbers which algorithm is used."

What you can learn from this paragraph is that even though there are several algorithms that generate the random numbers, it is possible to assess (determine) from the numbers spit out from the RNG, which algorithm is been used....This also prove that a computer that draws the numbers will be EASIER to crack than the bouncing lotto balls machine...Also, i believe it would take lots of calculations or lots of formulas to determine which algorithm the RnG uses, something that could easily be done with lots of computing power, like a supercomputer...

"What you can learn from this paragraph is that even though there are several algorithms that generate the random numbers, it is possible to assess (determine) from the numbers spit out from the RNG, which algorithm is been used...."

And in the very next paragraph Orion explained why they don't use that approach.

"Another approach to obtain random numbers is to use noise in nature. The most commonly used noise sources are bouncing of ping pong balls (in lotteries) or more sophisticated: radioactive decay or electron tunneling in electronic components. These processes are in principle unpredictable. ORION's Random Number Generator is of the latter kind."

If a lottery commission is using a RNG that is "in priniple unpredictable", you're supercomputer would useless.

Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: April 8, 2007, 10:26 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 8, 2007

"What you can learn from this paragraph is that even though there are several algorithms that generate the random numbers, it is possible to assess (determine) from the numbers spit out from the RNG, which algorithm is been used...."

And in the very next paragraph Orion explained why they don't use that approach.

"Another approach to obtain random numbers is to use noise in nature. The most commonly used noise sources are bouncing of ping pong balls (in lotteries) or more sophisticated: radioactive decay or electron tunneling in electronic components. These processes are in principle unpredictable. ORION's Random Number Generator is of the latter kind."

If a lottery commission is using a RNG that is "in priniple unpredictable", you're supercomputer would useless.

I doubt that nature can be more random than a computer unless the output field was of 1 digit, and the span of the output field was very large...The only thing in nature that i think can be trully random is if you had miles and miles of sheet with sensors and you were to record each microsecond the location the drop of water hits the ground in a rain...And electron tunneling, if i think it is what it is is not random enough...

Also something that i say can be more random than any existing thing i know would be if you let the numeric field that the algorithm/seed uses, to be a 3dimentional field and not 2 dimentional, like all RNG's (like random coordinates of a point/location inside a sphere)...

"More important than winning the states' lotteries is the movie "Red Planet..."

Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: April 8, 2007, 10:47 pm - IP Logged

I constantly receive emails from DNA telling me, how they constantly get 5of5 + 0 in California Lotto Plus, and 5of 6 and 4of 6 on other state lotto too...If these guys can do it without a supercomputer, now imagine with one...Whatever calculations you can do, a supercomputer can do it better with the help of a human (of course except reasoning)...

They got a supercomputer that can tell if you are are in distress or are lying...The supercomputer looks a 52 points in your face and pays attention to each individual point...If one of those points merely hints at a frown, distress or other emotion the supercomputer quickly tells you that you are lying or in distress or othe emotion...I think of it as a lie detector test...

"Keno is "el diablo cazador de hombres"......." "You can't see it......" "And is skins them......" from movie "Predator 1"....

Tx United States Member #4570 May 4, 2004 5180 Posts Offline

Posted: April 9, 2007, 2:19 am - IP Logged

"Random Number Generators are generating numbers in a sequence in such away that the next number has no relation with the previous numbers. There are software routines that may generate these numbers but these only approach the ideal of independence between the subsequent numbers because they still use an algorithm to calculate the next number from the previous one. There are several of these algorithms and it is difficult, though in principle not impossible, to assess from the numbers which algorithm is used."

-------------------------

"Regular" draws are not that much different than RNGs in that way.

I can say the same thing about them that it was said there about RNG numbers.

But I have never tried to find out what came before by looking at what came after.

Instead, I have used what came before to try to find out what will come after.

But maybe the principle is the same. I will never know, as I don't want to find out what came before.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7310 Posts Offline

Posted: April 9, 2007, 3:49 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by pumpi76 on April 8, 2007

I doubt that nature can be more random than a computer unless the output field was of 1 digit, and the span of the output field was very large...The only thing in nature that i think can be trully random is if you had miles and miles of sheet with sensors and you were to record each microsecond the location the drop of water hits the ground in a rain...And electron tunneling, if i think it is what it is is not random enough...

Also something that i say can be more random than any existing thing i know would be if you let the numeric field that the algorithm/seed uses, to be a 3dimentional field and not 2 dimentional, like all RNG's (like random coordinates of a point/location inside a sphere)...

"More important than winning the states' lotteries is the movie "Red Planet..."

My response was made because you misrepresented the claim made by Orion Products. In the first paragraph they said:

"There are several of these algorithms and it is difficult, though in principle not impossible, to assess from the numbers which algorithm is used."

And you used that statement to say a RNG could be cracked. However in the second paragraph that you neglected to add, ORION said:

"Another approach to obtain random numbers is to use noise in nature. The most commonly used noise sources are bouncing of ping pong balls (in lotteries) or more sophisticated: radioactive decay or electron tunneling in electronic components. These processes are in principle unpredictable. ORION's Random Number Generator is of the latter kind."

ORION is saying their RNG is "in principle unpredictable".

I don't know why anybody would believe they could crack a RNG that is "difficult, though in principle not impossible" but since they sell a product that is "in principle unpredictable" and available to any lottery commission, even using a supercomputer would be a waste of time.

"I doubt that nature can be more random than a computer unless the output field was of 1 digit, and the span of the output field was very large..."

When ORION said "radioactive decay or electron tunneling in electronic components "is random, that statement is either true or false.

How can an occurrence be "more or less" random or how can that statement be "more or less" true or false?

The lottery commissions provide jackpot games where the jackpots are determined by the amount of money wagered less whatever percentage they take off the top. Their goal is to make the drawings as fair as possible for ALL the players.

Even though the lottery commissions write the checks to the winners, the money is still coming out of the pockets other players so whose money are you actually winning?

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7310 Posts Offline

Posted: April 9, 2007, 4:01 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by pumpi76 on April 8, 2007

I constantly receive emails from DNA telling me, how they constantly get 5of5 + 0 in California Lotto Plus, and 5of 6 and 4of 6 on other state lotto too...If these guys can do it without a supercomputer, now imagine with one...Whatever calculations you can do, a supercomputer can do it better with the help of a human (of course except reasoning)...

They got a supercomputer that can tell if you are are in distress or are lying...The supercomputer looks a 52 points in your face and pays attention to each individual point...If one of those points merely hints at a frown, distress or other emotion the supercomputer quickly tells you that you are lying or in distress or othe emotion...I think of it as a lie detector test...

"Keno is "el diablo cazador de hombres"......." "You can't see it......" "And is skins them......" from movie "Predator 1"....

"I constantly receive emails from DNA telling me, how they constantly get 5of5 + 0 in California Lotto Plus, and 5of 6 and 4of 6 on other state lotto too...If these guys can do it without a supercomputer, now imagine with one..."

If you believe what they're telling you is true, buy their system.

"They got a supercomputer that can tell if you are are in distress or are lying..."

Have they changed the laws in Georgia or are the results of a lie detector still unadmissible in a court of law?

Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: April 9, 2007, 4:15 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by Stack47 on April 9, 2007

"I constantly receive emails from DNA telling me, how they constantly get 5of5 + 0 in California Lotto Plus, and 5of 6 and 4of 6 on other state lotto too...If these guys can do it without a supercomputer, now imagine with one..."

If you believe what they're telling you is true, buy their system.

"They got a supercomputer that can tell if you are are in distress or are lying..."

Have they changed the laws in Georgia or are the results of a lie detector still unadmissible in a court of law?

I am planning to buy a membership with them to try them and see how good they are and afterwards tell all LP members if they are for real or they are bluffing...But the thing is that, I just got my pre-paid debit card from the bank and they are promising me that it should work, just like a credit card..But i don't have any money with me right now..Not until the 1st of next month (May)...It is then when i will be using the debit card for the first time..

The laws in Georgia, I've never studied them i don't even watch law shows on TV, so i wouldn't know...That supercomputer lie detector face was something they just came out with it, i don't know what they are going to do with it...Is like a new discovery..

"More important than winning the states' lotteries is the movie "Red Planet..."

Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: May 1, 2007, 7:20 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by pumpi76 on April 8, 2007

I doubt that nature can be more random than a computer unless the output field was of 1 digit, and the span of the output field was very large...The only thing in nature that i think can be trully random is if you had miles and miles of sheet with sensors and you were to record each microsecond the location the drop of water hits the ground in a rain...And electron tunneling, if i think it is what it is is not random enough...

Also something that i say can be more random than any existing thing i know would be if you let the numeric field that the algorithm/seed uses, to be a 3dimentional field and not 2 dimentional, like all RNG's (like random coordinates of a point/location inside a sphere)...

"More important than winning the states' lotteries is the movie "Red Planet..."

And something that can be very random i think, perhaps impossible to crack raised to the 10th power would be if you let the numeric field of a RNG be the Magnification scale of a microscope or electron microscope up the the nanoscale....What i am saying, for example if the RNG output at a certain time is 5, that 5 has a magnification scale just the same way a yard is divided into feets and feeds are divided into inches and inches divided into centimeters and centimeters divided into milimiters and so forth...Think about it as decimal system, where 5 can be 5.32392323 or 5.123412 and so forth...(Decimal system is another way you could use beside the magnification scale of a microscope or electron microscope)......Each dedicimal ramification been different...So for example the out put 5 is not just five but it can have almost infinate decimal ramifications, so is not just 5 but 5 and the decimal.....Where for example the RNG output of 5.39392892 is different from the output of 5.3983989282...And of course the RNG would have like 200 Million numbers each number with 30 Thousand or more decimal...

And i thought about it and i just realize that you could start a lottery like that, a lottery that will be can be called: Decimal or Rational Numbers....YOu could set it from 1 to 50 and each number had 3 decimal numbers...I think that will be soo cool...

Another thing that can be impossible to crack would be the "unique signature" of a volcano or a stock on a scale...I am talking about the chart/signature that a volcano or stock do on a day....

"More important than winning the states' lotteries is the movie "Red Planet"....."

Wisconsin United States Member #1303 March 27, 2003 1508 Posts Offline

Posted: May 2, 2007, 7:54 am - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by LANTERN on April 9, 2007

"Random Number Generators are generating numbers in a sequence in such away that the next number has no relation with the previous numbers. There are software routines that may generate these numbers but these only approach the ideal of independence between the subsequent numbers because they still use an algorithm to calculate the next number from the previous one. There are several of these algorithms and it is difficult, though in principle not impossible, to assess from the numbers which algorithm is used."

-------------------------

"Regular" draws are not that much different than RNGs in that way.

I can say the same thing about them that it was said there about RNG numbers.

But I have never tried to find out what came before by looking at what came after.

Instead, I have used what came before to try to find out what will come after.

But maybe the principle is the same. I will never know, as I don't want to find out what came before.

Wondering something. Probably a rhetorical question....

If the algorithm uses the most recent number (e.g. 15 ) to calculate the number that comes after, then the actual formula used in the algorithm to calculate the following number would have to change after each number is drawn.....otherwise the same number would always follow 15...

Therefore, it would seem the algorithm would have any number of formuli in it and a subprogram that somehow "randomly" picks one of the formuli to use, each time a number is drawn.

So "cracking" it would entail not just the overall algorithm, but also all of the formuli that are used to calculate the numbers, and somehow cracking how the RNG picks the sub-formula each time.

I hope I made this understandable, since I'm not a mathmatician.