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Hoosier Lottery

Topic closed. 66 replies. Last post 9 years ago by LOTTOMIKE.

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Indiana
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December 29, 2005
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Posted: August 1, 2007, 10:30 am - IP Logged

By the way...I neglected to mention one other thing Esther did...

According to published reports Esther implemented a new bonus program for herself and the top officials of the Hoosier Lottery.   Based on the profitability of the Hoosier Lottery...Esther and the top lottery staff got a new bonus program that was approximately equal to 1/3 of her (and presumably their) annual salary.

In light of this the motive for the aforemntioned changes SHOULD BE OBIVOUS.

Less money for player prizes...more money for the politicians and of course...more money for her and her cronies.

Jim 


Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

    Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
    Indiana
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    Posted: August 1, 2007, 10:56 am - IP Logged

    By the way...I neglected to mention one other thing Esther did...

    According to published reports Esther implemented a new bonus program for herself and the top officials of the Hoosier Lottery.   Based on the profitability of the Hoosier Lottery...Esther and the top lottery staff got a new bonus program that was approximately equal to 1/3 of her (and presumably their) annual salary.

    In light of this the motive for the aforemntioned changes SHOULD BE OBIVOUS.

    Less money for player prizes...more money for the politicians and of course...more money for her and her cronies.

    Jim 

    You know what you need to do? You need to go on a spy mission or something and plant spy cameras and phone taps at the Hoosier Lottery Headquarters since the Hoosier Lottery is as bad as you say it is. Seriously, you keep saying the payouts are low, in yet you don't even know what the sales were. How can you say the payouts are low if you don't know what the sales were? I'm not defending the Hoosier Lottery simply because I'm on their side, I'm just don't think that anyone has provided enough COLD HARD DIRT PROOF. That's what I want, COLD HARD DIRT PROOF. Don't tell me sales were this and payouts were that. To me, that's not sufficient. Seriously, it's time for you to go on a mission.

    Gonna win.Big Smile

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      Indiana
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      Posted: August 1, 2007, 12:26 pm - IP Logged

      Guru,

      I am on a mission!  A mission to expose what I believe is a crooked and corrupt lottery.  i.e The Hoosier Lottery.

      As to sales figures and payout information...well I don't think a cirizen of this state should have to go undercover and plant bugs to get information that is suppossed to be in the public domain.  Besides...as I am not a law enforcement agent but am instead just a common citizen I really don't want to go to jail for bugging or infiltrating Hoosier Lottery's Headquarters.

      But if it's proof you want then it's proof you'll get:

      1. Former Executive Director Esther Schneider did change the rules in the Hoosier Lottery's lotto game without conducting the on going study mentioned in IC 4-30-3-5.  The annuity was lengthed without jackpot increase, the cash value was reduced, a bonus program for her was implemented and no study as to the impact on players or their reaction to said changes (as required by law) was done.

      2.  Esther Schneider admitted that she did award a no bid Hoosier Lottery contract contract to one of her friends.

      3. Esther Schneider and others have admitted that prizes were paid to people who did not have an actual lottery ticket in their possession.  That violates IC Code 4-30-11-1 that deals with ticket validation.  Obviously if there is not an actual ticket in someone's possession, it cannot be validated and therefore, cannot be paid.

      4. Esther Schneider did admit that prizes were paid to people after the deadline for claiming prizes had expired.  That by the way is also a direct violation of Indiana law as defined in IC 4-30-11-7

      5. M. Foreman...a former Hoosier Lottery employee did rig a scratch off game.  To date he hasn't been prosecuted and all indications are he will not ever be prosecuted.

      6. The Hoosier Lottery did admit that on their website the posted number of Scratch-off prizes and the odds of winning them were not correct.  In short...there were less prizes than they indicated.

      7. The Hoosier Lottery did refuse to publish their sales figures and the Indianapolis Star did sue them.  But to no avail..the Hoosier Lottery will not make their sales figures available to the public.

      Of course there's more including the Build Indiana Scandal but I think I've made my case. 

      If these things don't concern you than so be it.  But a factually proven culture of secracy, scandal and corruption does exist and has existed in the Hoosier Lottery for years and that does concern me.

      <>Does all that prove that the ongoing 10 month....84 draw...RNG produced...Hoosier Lottery Lotto game is rigged?  No it doesn't.  But I think any prudent person...looking at the historical facts of the Hoosier Lottery has got to ask tough questions and demand honest answers. And when those questions aren't answered then the only recourse for a prudent person is indeed to be be very very wary. 

      The bottom line is I think it's rigged but you obviously don't.  That's the great thing about America.  We're both entitled to our opinions even though one of us is surely wrong.

      If it looks like a duck and it waddles, quacks, has feathers, webbed feet and a bill...

      Jim 


      Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

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        NY
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        Posted: August 1, 2007, 1:31 pm - IP Logged

        Floyd,

        <>Our numbers are a bit different.  Usually I look at the winners at all prize levels and then take the average and round up or down a bit to make it easy.  But again your point is well taken and my actual "sales" numbers may be a bit high.

        As for the reality of the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto sales numbers...much has been made by me and a few others that they do not publish their sales figures.  The only information available to the public (that I'm aware of) is in their annual report.  There is a link on the website to the last one...Fiscal Year 2006 and for the Lotto game it shows a net for the year at $65,600,000.  (I'm not quite sure why they call it  net instead of gross.)  

        With 2 draws a week that means an average draw sales of just over $630,000.  Given those sales figures and with odds of 1 in 12 million, maybe it isn't so surprising that it has rolled over 84 times (42 weeks).  If the average held true then it would take 20 draws and 10 weeks just to sell 12 million tickets.  

        <> I understand your point about past roll overs and increased ticket sales...but this (soon to be 10 month roll) strikes me as more than a bit unsual.

        <>Jim 

        I estimate sales from the prize with the lowest odds because that's most likely to fit the statistical model. There's a fair chance that there will be more or less winners than expected as the odds go up. The fortune cookie PB is an extreme example. Either way, I'm sure we're both close enough for playing armchair quarterback.

        I's also like to see prizes that are directly related to actual sales, and therefore actual cash collected, but if the average sales are  in the neighborhood of $630,000 then a cash increase of $200,000 is about  31.7% of sales, which usually puts it right in line with PB and MM. Of course it's the lottery and not the players that reap the benefit when an unusually large jackpot spurs larger ticket sales.

        As far as the probability of such a long string of rollovers, if average sales are 630,000 tickets it's a fairly safe bet that sales were lower for the first several drawings. Still, let's go with 630,000 tickets, which means about a 95% chance of a rollover. It will really be higher because of slightly lower sales and selections not being completely random. There's only a 28% chance of a winner in the first 25 rolls. If we reduce the chance of a rollover to 92% for the next 25 draws there's only  a 12.5% chance of a winner, or an overall chance of  3.45%.  Dropping the chance of a rollover to 90% there's a 7% chance of a winner in drawings 51 through 75. Overall chances of a winner before reaching 75 is 1 in 403. That makes it unlikely, but far better than most odds in the lottery. By the time we get to 85 drawings without a winner we're looking at perhaps 1 in 1000. Unusual, but hardly an indication that anything is suspicious, and each time we get to any given number of drawings the next one is completely independent of previous events. If tickets sales continue to account for 10% of possible combinations there's a 34% chance we'll see another 10 rolls, anda 7% chance it will go another 25.

        Are there problems with the lottery?  I'm sure. They all have some problems. They're run by the government (not that private industry isn't good at ineffiiency and back door deals, too). Is the current string of rollovers an indication of wrongdoing? No. It could be because of it, but the statistics don't suggest it.

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          Indiana
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          Posted: August 1, 2007, 4:44 pm - IP Logged

          Floyd,

          Once again your post is well reasoned, well written and rational.  My numbers again are a bit different than yours but I wouldn't quarrel with your probability ratios.

          Having said that, this matter could be at least partially resolved if we had accurate sales figures from the Hoosier Lottery.  (Heavy emphasis on the word partially.)

          When you say all lotteries have problems...that is a gross understatement when applied to the Hoosier Lottery.  The post I made earlier in this thread just hits the highlights of the past couple of years.  IMHO these incidents give the impression of a secretive, dishonest and manipulative lottery that operates outside the bounds of ethical standards.  And when it comes to integrity I think it'ss important to remember that:

          It is not enough for Caesar's wife to be pure...she must at all times appear to be pure.

          One of the biggest problems I have is not with your calculations but with the fundamental assumption that the sales numbers posted by the Hoosier Lottery in their annual report (as well as other information they have posted) is accurate.  I must remind everyne here that the sales figures posted are net sales figures and not gross.  I have been a professional businessman for most of my adult life and I can assure you there is a huge difference between the two.

          Net figures are obviously adjusted down for something.  (Your net income is the amount you recieve after all applicable taxes are deducted from your gorss income.)  So my question to the Hoosier Lottery is; what are these net sales figures adjusted for?

          Given that the Hoosier Lottery has been caught before posting numbers that are not accurate...I think that is a fair question.

          The bottom line with me is there have been so many instances of wrong doing with the Hoosier Lottery and so many lies, half truths and false statements that I question everything they say or do.  The Hoosier Lottery has number crunchers too so it is conceivable to me that the net sales numbers posted in their annual report were adjusted to make the statictics fit.

          Does that mean they are?  No it doesn't.  Does that make me paranoid?  It probably does.  But let's face it...the Hoosier Lottery has earned the public's paranoia over the years with their culture of secracy, scandal and corruption.

          I'm actually surprised that no one here thinks it's odd that the Hoosier Lottery has paid out prizes to people who can't produce a ticket...let alone the winning ticket!

          I wonder if Caesar's wife plays the Hoosier Lottery? 

          Jim 


          Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

            Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
            Indiana
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            Posted: August 1, 2007, 6:50 pm - IP Logged

            What if I win?

            Gonna win.Big Smile

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              Indiana
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              Posted: August 2, 2007, 8:02 am - IP Logged

              Guru,

              Assuming you have no "connection" to the Hoosier Lottery...I would be thrilled to see you win!  I love to see people win money on the Lottery.  I wish more people would win money from the Lottery!  Especially the Hoosier Lottery.

              But alas it isn't to be.  (At least not this draw.)  I looked this morning and nobody hit the Hoosier Lottery.  It is now in it's 10th month...85 draws (I think) and still hasn't been hit.   

              Jim


              Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                CCHS13's avatar - chi jpeg.jpg
                Illinois
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                Posted: August 2, 2007, 8:47 am - IP Logged

                 

                This is a very good thread with excellent arguments, the Hoosier Lottery did get caught cheating

                with their scratch offs a while back when someone had the resources to purchase numerous

                amounts of tickets based on the remaining prizes only to find that the remaining prizes were

                not reported correctly and to my knowledge all they had to say for themselves was oops, it was

                a mistake.  This stinks.  They should give players their dollar back instead of a free ticket anyway

                and let them choose if they want to buy another ticket for the next draw.  Once they get your

                money they are saying they cant afford to let it go but will give you another ticket and send you

                on your way.  Sounds suspect to me

                Men Lie Women Lie Numbers Dont

                  RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
                  mid-Ohio
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                  Posted: August 2, 2007, 10:40 am - IP Logged

                   

                  This is a very good thread with excellent arguments, the Hoosier Lottery did get caught cheating

                  with their scratch offs a while back when someone had the resources to purchase numerous

                  amounts of tickets based on the remaining prizes only to find that the remaining prizes were

                  not reported correctly and to my knowledge all they had to say for themselves was oops, it was

                  a mistake.  This stinks.  They should give players their dollar back instead of a free ticket anyway

                  and let them choose if they want to buy another ticket for the next draw.  Once they get your

                  money they are saying they cant afford to let it go but will give you another ticket and send you

                  on your way.  Sounds suspect to me

                  Actually a free QP is not the equivalent of a dollar, it costs the state about 15¢.  The odds of the state having to give you a prize for that QP are 1:6.3 and that's most likely to be another free QP.

                   * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
                     
                               Evil Looking       

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                    Indiana
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                    Posted: August 2, 2007, 1:04 pm - IP Logged

                    RJ,

                    I don't believe that CCHS is referring to the Free Quick Picks given away on the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto Game.  I think he's referring to one of the latest in a series of Hoosier Lottery scandals.  According to published press accounts and the class action suit filed against the Hoosier Lottery here's what happened:

                    The Hoosier Lottery publishes Scratch off prize information on their website.  Published information for the game "Cash Blast" indicated that the game was coming to an end.  It said 80% to 90% of the tickets for that game had been sold but all the top tier prizes were still available as well as a significent number of second tier prizes.

                    Based on this information 2 players in the state went out and purchased as many Cash Blast tickets as they could find.  (One player purchased $40,000 [!!!] worth of tickets and the other player purchased about $2300!)  When both players failed to win a significent prize they filed a complaint with the Hoosier Lottery.

                    The Hoosier Lottery then admitted that the prize information was in fact "overstated."  They claimed that of the 5 million tickets available for that game about 2.5 million were printed in error by the vendor and were "potentially defective."  Tickets for Cash Blast cost $10.  The 2.5 million "potentially defective" tickets were allegdedly sold to the public for a gross sales of $25 million.  However, because these were "potentially defective" tickets they had no chance of winning any prizes.  That means a significent number of advertised prizes...in this case a total of 60,000 prizes, including the top tier Prizes for Cash Blast...simply didn't exist.

                    In a statement on their website the Hoosier Lottery said the the 2.5 million "potentially defective" tickets had been replaced however, an internal audit by the Hoosier Lottery did not reflect the changes and that resulted in the overstatement of prizes. 

                    <>Rather than refund any money for the 2.5 million "potentially defective" tickets sold, the Hoosier Lottery offered some disgruntled players a Free Scratch Off ticket.  As for the guy who spent $40,000 on Cash Blast tickets and didn't win squat.  Despite the fact that 80% to 90% of the tickets had been sold and all the Top Tier Prizes remained unclaimed as well as significent second tier prizes...the Hoosier Lottery told him even though there were defective tickets, his losses were just a coincidence. 

                    Jim    


                    Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                      RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
                      mid-Ohio
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                      Posted: August 2, 2007, 1:30 pm - IP Logged

                      I remember reading about those guys, one was even a professional investor as I recalled.  He should have known better than to believe the lottery would publish anything that would give a player with extra money an advantage over the average lottery player.  Publishing such information could discourage the average players from buying tickets and bring down the whole system.

                       * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
                         
                                   Evil Looking       

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                        Indiana
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                        Posted: August 2, 2007, 2:00 pm - IP Logged

                        Here's a couple of links to the story:

                        http://indiana.typepad.com/fwob/2007/01/lottery_really_.html

                        http://www.theindychannel.com/news/10682734/detail.html?rss=ind8psp=news

                        http://www.onlinebusinessbureau.com/view_Articlecfm?Article_ID=293

                        Jim 

                        PS These are older links so I'm not sure the story is still there or the links still work. 


                        Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

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                          Indiana
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                          Posted: August 2, 2007, 9:00 pm - IP Logged

                          RJ,

                          The point of the lawsuit is that the Hoosier Lottery did exactly that.  They published false and misleading information in order to entice people to buy tickets for a game where the prizes didn't exist.

                          According to the article in the Fort Wayne Observer...the Hoosier Lottery advertised over $8 million in prizes available for the Cash Blast game.  They sold 5 million tickets at $10 each for a total $50 million in ticket sales.  In total they paid out less than $1 million in prizes on that game.  (More than $7 million worth of advertised prizes simply didn't exist!)  Then after they sold most of the tickets they changed the number of available prizes listed on the website...without paying the prizes out and discontinued the game.

                          Jim 


                          Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx

                            CCHS13's avatar - chi jpeg.jpg
                            Illinois
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                            Posted: August 3, 2007, 4:18 pm - IP Logged

                             

                            Exactly Uncle Jim, if you are not going to publish the truth then dont publish anything at all

                            It is not right to mislead people and if it was indeed a mistake then they should have made

                            good on their error, instead they profited from it.  BS

                            Men Lie Women Lie Numbers Dont

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                              Indiana
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                              Posted: August 5, 2007, 8:00 am - IP Logged

                              Well boys and girls the Hoosier Lottery's Lotto game rolled over again.  Almost 10 months and 86 draws later it now stands at $41.5 million.

                              Tune in next week for another exciting episode of:

                              As the Jackpot Rolls!

                              Jim 


                              Money frees you from doing things you dislike.  Since I dislike doing nearly everything, money is handy.  - Groucho Marx