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Info On RNG'S

Topic closed. 37 replies. Last post 9 years ago by psykomo.

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LOTTOMIKE's avatar - Lottery-063.jpg
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Posted: September 15, 2007, 4:39 am - IP Logged

i'm tired so forgive me this may be in an earlier post i read but its tragic to know that one of the reasons tennessee went to RNG was because the employees hated doing all the work that went along with doing ball drawings plus it got harder once tennessee went to two draws a day....

LOL!  can you believe some lazy ass moronic employees might have been a contributing factor in tennessee going computerized?!

    Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
    Chief Bottle Washer
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    Posted: September 15, 2007, 8:22 am - IP Logged

    i'm tired so forgive me this may be in an earlier post i read but its tragic to know that one of the reasons tennessee went to RNG was because the employees hated doing all the work that went along with doing ball drawings plus it got harder once tennessee went to two draws a day....

    LOL!  can you believe some lazy ass moronic employees might have been a contributing factor in tennessee going computerized?!

    Mike,

    That's a harsh way of putting it, but essentially that's the reason.  You don't go to computerized drawings because it's "more random" or any nonsense like that.  The randomness of the drawings has nothing to do with any of these decisions.

    Frankly, the "random" arguments are the smokescreen for computerized drawings.  Manufacturers of the devices try to bring the discussion into a debate over randomness.  That's not the most important issue. 

    They bring the discussion there because that's something they can prove.  However, there is no way they can disprove all the various things I brought up in my post above, such as hackability of any system (regardless of "checksums", which are beatable in a number of ways).

    The arguments of checksums, bootable ROMs, physical security, network security, etc., are all great, but it's like saying, "My house is completely secure because I have the best locks in the world."  The thief will break the window instead, and then after the fact the proud homeowner will say "oh, that's only a window, we'll fix that."  Then the next time they slip in the basement.

    The point is, there is always a way.

    So the problem is that with computers it is much harder to discover problems.  And there are not a bunch of RNG testing experts running around checking these things out proactively. 

    The thing is, it is hard to argue against what I'm saying here, because it has happened so many times already!

    It's not like I'm spouting theory, it's all real events that have taken place.

    The only event proponents of computerized drawings can point to is the famous case in Pennsylvania years ago, where someone tampered with the balls to make "6-6-6" come out.  But as four4me pointed out, that's not something that could happen today.

    So, on one hand we have a single event in the past with ball drawings, and on the other hand we have many glitches, bugs, and completely unfair drawings that are still happening today with computerized drawings.

    How is this even a debate?

     

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      takeitez's avatar - japheth
      Carters Lake, Ga.
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      Posted: September 15, 2007, 8:56 am - IP Logged

      Great Thread!!

      Should be required reading by all members.

      ez

                No Pity!Guitar  Drum ........ in the long run........

        paurths's avatar - underground
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        Posted: September 15, 2007, 9:01 am - IP Logged

        Mike,

        That's a harsh way of putting it, but essentially that's the reason.  You don't go to computerized drawings because it's "more random" or any nonsense like that.  The randomness of the drawings has nothing to do with any of these decisions.

        Frankly, the "random" arguments are the smokescreen for computerized drawings.  Manufacturers of the devices try to bring the discussion into a debate over randomness.  That's not the most important issue. 

        They bring the discussion there because that's something they can prove.  However, there is no way they can disprove all the various things I brought up in my post above, such as hackability of any system (regardless of "checksums", which are beatable in a number of ways).

        The arguments of checksums, bootable ROMs, physical security, network security, etc., are all great, but it's like saying, "My house is completely secure because I have the best locks in the world."  The thief will break the window instead, and then after the fact the proud homeowner will say "oh, that's only a window, we'll fix that."  Then the next time they slip in the basement.

        The point is, there is always a way.

        So the problem is that with computers it is much harder to discover problems.  And there are not a bunch of RNG testing experts running around checking these things out proactively. 

        The thing is, it is hard to argue against what I'm saying here, because it has happened so many times already!

        It's not like I'm spouting theory, it's all real events that have taken place.

        The only event proponents of computerized drawings can point to is the famous case in Pennsylvania years ago, where someone tampered with the balls to make "6-6-6" come out.  But as four4me pointed out, that's not something that could happen today.

        So, on one hand we have a single event in the past with ball drawings, and on the other hand we have many glitches, bugs, and completely unfair drawings that are still happening today with computerized drawings.

        How is this even a debate?

        Using RNG's the "instance" that organises the"draw" will never make a loss.
        At least, not over the long run. If it is played smartly enough, no one will ever notice, not even the ones that track the statistics intensively.

        Any given day: All the bets are placed, that's all computerized.
        This means that the "mainframe" is "aware" of the payout for each and every number that might come to the draw. That's simple mathematics.
        All the "instance" needs now is that the computer spits out the combination that will have such payouts that there is guaranteed profit.

        Can it be done? Yes!
        There's nothing more  to it.

        They don't care what number comes to the draw, 000 or 162, or any other number,
        as long as it is the number that will produce low payouts it is A OK.

        If it looks like garlic, smells like garlic and tastes like garlic,
        it is garlic!

        lasas3

        An onion a day keeps everyone away!!!

          Lkydeb*594's avatar - kissdollarbill
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          Posted: September 15, 2007, 9:36 am - IP Logged

          Using RNG's the "instance" that organises the"draw" will never make a loss.
          At least, not over the long run. If it is played smartly enough, no one will ever notice, not even the ones that track the statistics intensively.

          Any given day: All the bets are placed, that's all computerized.
          This means that the "mainframe" is "aware" of the payout for each and every number that might come to the draw. That's simple mathematics.
          All the "instance" needs now is that the computer spits out the combination that will have such payouts that there is guaranteed profit.

          Can it be done? Yes!
          There's nothing more  to it.

          They don't care what number comes to the draw, 000 or 162, or any other number,
          as long as it is the number that will produce low payouts it is A OK.

          If it looks like garlic, smells like garlic and tastes like garlic,
          it is garlic!

          this is exactly my thought. I remember a few months ago when this subject  of RNG  was brought up, Todd stated that "they have to make a profit" & that got my attention.  Thank u for this post Ricky, very interesting.


            CARBOB's avatar - FL LOTTERY_LOGO.png
            ORLANDO, FLORIDA
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            Posted: September 15, 2007, 11:38 am - IP Logged

            Using RNG's the "instance" that organises the"draw" will never make a loss.
            At least, not over the long run. If it is played smartly enough, no one will ever notice, not even the ones that track the statistics intensively.

            Any given day: All the bets are placed, that's all computerized.
            This means that the "mainframe" is "aware" of the payout for each and every number that might come to the draw. That's simple mathematics.
            All the "instance" needs now is that the computer spits out the combination that will have such payouts that there is guaranteed profit.

            Can it be done? Yes!
            There's nothing more  to it.

            They don't care what number comes to the draw, 000 or 162, or any other number,
            as long as it is the number that will produce low payouts it is A OK.

            If it looks like garlic, smells like garlic and tastes like garlic,
            it is garlic!

            Great point Ricky, that has been my concern all along. If you think it's not happening in states where they have RNG and even in the states with balls, I have some "beach front property", in Fla, for sale. Remember this saying,"when someone says, it's not about sex", it's about sex; When someone says, "it's not about money", it's about money. When someone starts spouting off about " lottery integrity", when money is involved, forget it. Integity is out the door.

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              Urbandale, IA
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              Posted: September 15, 2007, 2:19 pm - IP Logged

              "Predicting winning lottery numbers is going to be hard no matter what, but it is much worse due to the lottery operators and their pre-tests, after all they quit selling numbers at least 30 minutes before the draws, that gives the lottery people 30 minutes, they should quit selling numbers 10 minutes before the draws. "

              This is a common question from lottery players.  Why stop selling so early?  Lotteries used to sell up until a few minutes before draw time, and then hold the drawing.  The Powerball game started the concept of cutting sales early so that an independent body could get a copy of all play data on a separate computer, verfiy that it was the same as the original data, and then hold a drawing. 

              This is really additional security.  Unless you believe that the various lottery divisions (draw staff, security, and IT staff) and the CPA firms that audit the lottery are all out to defraud you, it is far better that more parties have a copy of the play data before the drawing.  It is harder to change the play data after knowning the numbers if there are multiple copies (of course there are many other safeguards too).

              There is also no reason for the state to "cheat" to make money.  Besides the threat of jail time, a lottery simply designs a game in the way it wants it to perform.  There is absolutely no reason to cheat. 

               I suspect that this is one of the real reasons behind the concern about RNG's.  There is this feeling that the computers know all of the numbers played and so the lottery can use an RNG to easily draw numbers that have not been played.  But, if you think about it, the number of hits per year are easily set by the game design. 

                LOTTOMIKE's avatar - Lottery-063.jpg
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                Posted: September 15, 2007, 2:28 pm - IP Logged

                the thing i'm also concerned about is the RNG state could study that data and 'maximize' their profit by programming the computer to make the number with the least amount of money bet on as the winning number.the winning number most of the time being a number the state would have to pay the least amount of money on while bringing the most profit.

                  CARBOB's avatar - FL LOTTERY_LOGO.png
                  ORLANDO, FLORIDA
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                  Posted: September 15, 2007, 3:02 pm - IP Logged

                  chuck32,

                   

                  There is also no reason for the state to "cheat" to make money.  Besides the threat of jail time, a lottery simply designs a game in the way it wants it to perform.  There is absolutely no reason to cheat. 

                  There is one reason to cheat!! Maximum Profit more profit , bigger bonuses.   The lottery is all about Money

                   

                   I suspect that this is one of the real reasons behind the concern about RNG's.  There is this feeling that the computers know all of the numbers played and so the lottery can use an RNG to easily draw numbers that have not been played.  But, if you think about it, the number of hits per year are easily set by the game design. 

                   Are you saying that the ability to have the computer pick the number with the least payout can't or never happens? How about balls, where they do so called pre-tests. You don't think it can't or never happens? What's the reason for pre-tests? Here in Fla, 3 years ago, they didn't pre-test. I would be willing to bet that the profits have increased since then.

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                    Urbandale, IA
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                    Posted: September 15, 2007, 3:11 pm - IP Logged

                    chuck32,

                     

                    There is also no reason for the state to "cheat" to make money.  Besides the threat of jail time, a lottery simply designs a game in the way it wants it to perform.  There is absolutely no reason to cheat. 

                    There is one reason to cheat!! Maximum Profit more profit , bigger bonuses.   The lottery is all about Money

                     

                     I suspect that this is one of the real reasons behind the concern about RNG's.  There is this feeling that the computers know all of the numbers played and so the lottery can use an RNG to easily draw numbers that have not been played.  But, if you think about it, the number of hits per year are easily set by the game design. 

                     Are you saying that the ability to have the computer pick the number with the least payout can't or never happens? How about balls, where they do so called pre-tests. You don't think it can't or never happens? What's the reason for pre-tests? Here in Fla, 3 years ago, they didn't pre-test. I would be willing to bet that the profits have increased since then.

                    There is no reason to cheat.  If a lottery wants more rolls, they simply set the odds to where they want to set the average jackpot and the average number of winners per year.  It is really an exercise in simple math.  Why cheat when you can just use statistics?  Besides, as I say, cheating involves jail time, then end of lotteries, and the end of one's career and reputation.  Private lotteries were outlawed at the turn of the previous century (1900) and replaced with state-run lotteries because it was too difficult to regulate. 

                     The above explanation makes sense for jackpot games.  Numbers games are a different story.  You might believe that it is beneficial to a lottery NOT to hit a number that has been over-played.  But again, lotteries do control that risk in other ways - they just shut off play for certain numbers if it gets too high.  The lotteries control the house to a great extent.  There is some risk in paying out on over-played numbers and in letting the statistics of a jackpot game play out over time, but it a much better decision to let the math work out (as it always does) than to engage in criminal activity.

                     Public lotteries are in it for the long term.  There are independent auditors and independent oversight and no cheat can be accomplished without involving multiple partners.

                    It is absolutely impossible that someone might cheat?  Of course not, but lotteries work hard to make it as close to impossible as it can be made and the motives (especially weighed against the risk) are just not there.

                      LANTERN's avatar - kilroy 28_173_reasonably_small.jpg
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                      Posted: September 15, 2007, 3:31 pm - IP Logged

                      There is no reason to cheat.  If a lottery wants more rolls, they simply set the odds to where they want to set the average jackpot and the average number of winners per year.  It is really an exercise in simple math.  Why cheat when you can just use statistics?  Besides, as I say, cheating involves jail time, then end of lotteries, and the end of one's career and reputation.  Private lotteries were outlawed at the turn of the previous century (1900) and replaced with state-run lotteries because it was too difficult to regulate. 

                       The above explanation makes sense for jackpot games.  Numbers games are a different story.  You might believe that it is beneficial to a lottery NOT to hit a number that has been over-played.  But again, lotteries do control that risk in other ways - they just shut off play for certain numbers if it gets too high.  The lotteries control the house to a great extent.  There is some risk in paying out on over-played numbers and in letting the statistics of a jackpot game play out over time, but it a much better decision to let the math work out (as it always does) than to engage in criminal activity.

                       Public lotteries are in it for the long term.  There are independent auditors and independent oversight and no cheat can be accomplished without involving multiple partners.

                      It is absolutely impossible that someone might cheat?  Of course not, but lotteries work hard to make it as close to impossible as it can be made and the motives (especially weighed against the risk) are just not there.

                      If it was not possible for people to increase their chances of winning perhaps there would be no reason to cheat, but even if they increase the odds against the players, some players can increase their own odds of winning, how can they control that other than by cheating?, the lotteries by now are aware that there are people who can win on games a lot more often than most others, a few members of LP seem to know how to win one or more lottery games a lot more often than they would if they bought quick picks.

                      I myself have been known to be able to increase my chances of winning on the pick 3, how can they control those odds then, when I also know how to control my odds (To some extent) ? They will of course use the pretests to cheat with!

                      BibleOnline  ParishesOnline  ChristianRadioOnline   MassOnline   Mass

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                        Urbandale, IA
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                        Posted: September 15, 2007, 3:38 pm - IP Logged

                        If it was not possible for people to increase their chances of winning perhaps there would be no reason to cheat, but even if they increase the odds against the players, some players can increase their own odds of winning, how can they control that other than by cheating?, the lotteries by now are aware that there are people who can win on games a lot more often than most others, a few members of LP seem to know how to win one or more lottery games a lot more often than they would if they bought quick picks.

                        I myself have been known to be able to increase my chances of winning on the pick 3, how can they control those odds then, when I also know how to control my odds (To some extent) ? They will of course use the pretests to cheat with!

                        The only ways to increase your odds of winning are to play more - or in a double-barrel game like Powerball, to buy numbers covering all red ball numbers (thereby giving yourself a guaranteed win and at least a discount in the game - you basically buy 42 plays for $39).  The only other possible hope for increasing one's odds is to assume fault in the draw process and to play the most common numbers for mechanical draw machines or the last numbers drawn for an RNG (or some other RNG issue like a poor spread of numbers available, etc.).  Such faults are rare, of course, and would be corrected if known.

                        It is not possible for persons to increase their chances of winning in other ways.  But them I am a guy who has absolutely no belief in the supernatural.  For me, the Universe runs on natural law alone.

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                          Posted: September 15, 2007, 3:41 pm - IP Logged

                          No mystery here.  Numbers that are NOT posted are said to win more because there are those that say they do - but they cannot be tested.  If accurate records were kept, instead of human "feelings", I have no doubt that a statistical sample would play true.

                            LANTERN's avatar - kilroy 28_173_reasonably_small.jpg
                            Tx
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                            Posted: September 15, 2007, 3:49 pm - IP Logged

                            Well, against the who "Know" or are said to "Know better", a person who "Really knows" do can and does increase his chances of winning a lot, if there is no tampering with the draw's results.

                            If LP had a safe "Time Capsule" way of safeguarding predictions untill after the draw, it could be proved.

                            Anyhow, in the near future within the next 6 to 12months  or before that I will prove without the shadow of a doubt that your odds of winning can be increased, at least on the "Daily Games".

                            How much they can be increased? I don't know, but they will be increased over quick pick plays or over random chance.

                            I am sick and tired of people saying that odds can't be increased I will try to prove them wrong, but with open posted predictions is hard as the lotteries can also see such predictions, it would be best to have a sort of time capsule predictions not to be opened untill after the draw. 

                            And I am not even one of those who are the best at predicting. 

                            Not by "Super Natural means" it is all done with stats. 

                            BibleOnline  ParishesOnline  ChristianRadioOnline   MassOnline   Mass

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                              Dead_Aim's avatar - canstock2002989

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                              Posted: September 15, 2007, 4:04 pm - IP Logged

                              Chuck wrote:

                              "There are independent auditors and independent oversight and no cheat can be accomplished without involving multiple partners."

                              That has already been proven not to be the case. TN's third party programmer made a mistake. It was caught by no one. Every so-called security measure failed. The multiple tests and testers we hear so much about did not notice the program was not putting out doubles? I would think that would be the 2nd or 3rd thing to check on the list of things that are considered no-nos. There was no conspiracy there but all the independent any-whos let it go by with out noticing a thing.

                              It was the players that brought the problem forward as with every other case I have read about concerning computer drawings. So as far as everybody having to be in on it, they just have to be complacent in their jobs like they have proven to be in the past.

                              Don't Chase... Compare and Narrow

                              The Cheaper the Cost the Higher the Profit

                              Many Winners to You.

                              D_A