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Braking the law

Topic closed. 30 replies. Last post 8 years ago by BuyLow.

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Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
Indiana
United States
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January 7, 2007
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Posted: December 26, 2008, 10:46 pm - IP Logged

At first I agreed with you, Guru101.  After a few nanoseconds of thought, I am not so sure.

Where is it written that it shall be illegal ( or ill eagle) for a state run lottory to manipulate the outcome?  Have you seen any such prohibition?  I haven't.

One would naturally assume that such a law exists.  After all, the lottory wants to be open and fair and balanced and trustworthy, not to mention loyal, helpful, friendly, brave, and so on. Right?  So why did they go to RNG's and the ubiquitous cartoons?

The world ( meaning just me) wants to know.

It would be considered fraud.

Gonna win.Big Smile

    BobP's avatar - bobp avatar.png
    Dump Water Florida
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    Posted: December 26, 2008, 11:43 pm - IP Logged

    Just for fun, you might want to read the law that established your lottery and the rules they run under.  I wouldn't be surprised to find they are charged with keeping the game profitable, honest and random.  What they may do to keep the games profitable and random some may call manipulation.   They do seem to have some tricks, like keeping a machine and ballset aside for use only after rollovers have reached the trigger amount where no winner will surge the next jackpot into really big profits for the lottery.  Is this really manipulation or just good lottery business practice? 

    BobP

     

      lottocalgal's avatar - Lottery-043.jpg
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      Posted: December 27, 2008, 8:19 am - IP Logged

      I'm fairly sure that it would be considered fraud for them to do that and probably a host of other things too. Not to mention the PR nightmare it would cause and probably killing the lottery in that state for a good amount of time from the money lost in class-action lawsuits to people completely losing trust in it. I'm sure those involved go to prison, probably some minimum security "country club". Look at the RNG fiasco in Tennessee and how it's has hurt sales (we all know the Lottery Director/President/whoever she was is full of it) now imagine that on a significantly larger scale, with the likely multi-billion dollar lawsuit in place.

      Aside from the RNGs, there's no way they could rig the old fashioned ball based lotteries because word would eventually get out. Besides, there's no real reason to anyway. The odds for the most part already lean strongly in the lottery's favor.

      The California State Lottery Act didn't say much about legal ramification of cheating but I do like that they specified the monies from the sale of Lottery with being ADDED to the Education fund not used as a substitution for money already in place ( AS I have heard other states have done, Now how trued that is is anyones guess- but its nice to see that they said it.

      Anyway I found this on the CA Regulations
      "All draw devices must comply with the specifications approved by the Director to ensure security and randomness."

        Raven62's avatar - binary
        New Jersey
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        Posted: December 27, 2008, 8:55 am - IP Logged

        How do they ensure randomness without manipulating the drawings?

        A mind once stretched by a new idea never returns to its original dimensions!

          JAP69's avatar - alas
          South Carolina
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          Posted: December 27, 2008, 9:15 am - IP Logged

          Is it braking the law if any state at any time was known to change the out come of the number's at any time?

          State lotteries can change the numbers drawn that are put up on the t v if they are miscalled by the draw host.

          I have seen a draw host misscall quite a few times and the miscalled numbers put up on the screen.

          I would think after the drawn numbers have been certified by the auditing firm they can not be changed.

          MAGA

            four4me's avatar - gate1
            MD
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            Posted: December 27, 2008, 11:33 am - IP Logged

            Is it braking the law if any state at any time was known to change the out come of the number's at any time?

            Quote: Is it braking the law if any state at any time was known to change the out come of the number's at any time?

            Yes it's breaking the law if you are implying that the numbers game is/was rigged in some way.

            If the lottery draws the number 123 for example they cant change the number to some other number they want to.... if the official drawing numbers was 123 then they cant change it to another number after the drawing.

            Do lottery people make mistakes like put the wrong numbers on their web page that weren't the actual numbers drawn. Yes it has happened. But no matter what the numbers that were drawn are the official numbers. Usually the mistakes are corrected in a short time.

            Once i recall in Maryland they put numbers up before the drawing took place like about 45 minutes before the draw. I rushed out and bought like 10 dollars on the pick 3 and 4 drawing. Thinking i would cash in on their mistake. I rushed back home and looked those numbers up on Lottery Post.

             Somebody that worked for the lottery had put up the numbers from a year ago on the web page.... the wrong numbers for that draw. I rushed back to the store and canceled all but a dollar on each number. Good thing i did cause they were the wrong numbers. I felt kind of foolish for thinking the lottery would actually put the numbers up before the drawing took place.   

            Big John says. You don't hit the number. The number hits you!!!!

                           I'm not Big John, I'm Four4me, Big John's a friend.
              MysteryMan424's avatar - batman22
              Pelham NY
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              Posted: January 1, 2009, 8:39 am - IP Logged

              Every lottery drawing conducted is observed by an independent auditor. There would be no incentive for the lottery to alter or interfere with a draw result,since they are raking in huge amounts of money from eager and willing participants.

                BuyLow's avatar - palm tree.jpg
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                Posted: January 1, 2009, 8:47 am - IP Logged

                I'm still trying to stomach the fact of pre draws....I never knew they existed before I came here..I admit I don't get entirely what you mean by your opening statement.

                What the heck is a pre-draw?  I assume it a drawing before the actual drawing.  What is the purpose?

                  JonnyBgood07's avatar - Patriots logo1.jpg
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                  Posted: January 1, 2009, 8:51 am - IP Logged

                  sopposedly to see if the machine are in wroking order from what I've read here.....to me it nollies everything for folks who play picks from numerical patterns they believe that exist

                  "No matter how bad things may get, I'd like to thank my middle finger

                  for always sticking up for me.."

                   


                    BuyLow's avatar - palm tree.jpg
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                    Posted: January 1, 2009, 9:00 am - IP Logged

                    sopposedly to see if the machine are in wroking order from what I've read here.....to me it nollies everything for folks who play picks from numerical patterns they believe that exist

                    Well yea...IF they don't factor in those pre-draws, then their results are virtually useless except for being a brain exercise or just something to do.

                      takeitez's avatar - japheth
                      Carters Lake, Ga.
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                      Posted: January 1, 2009, 9:35 am - IP Logged

                      Well yea...IF they don't factor in those pre-draws, then their results are virtually useless except for being a brain exercise or just something to do.

                      I Agree!

                        That is so true!

                      ez

                                No Pity!Guitar  Drum ........ in the long run........

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                        Posted: January 1, 2009, 1:57 pm - IP Logged

                        "What they may do to keep the games profitable and random some may call manipulation."

                        Everything they do that affects the possible outcome is manipulation, but manipulation and fraud are completely different things. Increasing the number of PB outcomes is clearly a form of manipulation, but since they aren't trying to determine a fixed outcome it's obvioulsy not fraud. Similarly, using a specific machine in certain cases  isn't fraud. OTOH, if the rules call for choosing ball sets and machines randomly, it would violate the rules.

                        "How do they ensure randomness without manipulating the drawings?"

                        They used a magical mathematical  technique. It's called probability.

                        "State lotteries can change the numbers drawn that are put up on the t v if they are miscalled by the draw host."

                        That isn't changing the numbers, it's correcting them.  If an announcer mistakenly reads a 6 as a 9, wouldn't you expect them to fix it, assuming they notice it? If anything, that's abeneift to (some) players, because once in awhile a lottery decides to pay on two sets of numbers.

                        "IF they don't factor in those pre-draws, then their results arevirtually useless except for being a brain exercise or just somethingto do."

                        If they do account for the pre-draws, and if they even account for which ball set and which machine was used for every drawing, how would they account for the ball set and machine that are randonmly chosen for the official drawing? IMHO, there's no doubt tha there is some very minor non-randomness in the  drawing process, but it's absolutely impossible to account for al of the data that has some affect on the outcome.


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                          Posted: January 1, 2009, 3:08 pm - IP Logged

                          "What they may do to keep the games profitable and random some may call manipulation."

                          Everything they do that affects the possible outcome is manipulation, but manipulation and fraud are completely different things. Increasing the number of PB outcomes is clearly a form of manipulation, but since they aren't trying to determine a fixed outcome it's obvioulsy not fraud. Similarly, using a specific machine in certain cases  isn't fraud. OTOH, if the rules call for choosing ball sets and machines randomly, it would violate the rules.

                          "How do they ensure randomness without manipulating the drawings?"

                          They used a magical mathematical  technique. It's called probability.

                          "State lotteries can change the numbers drawn that are put up on the t v if they are miscalled by the draw host."

                          That isn't changing the numbers, it's correcting them.  If an announcer mistakenly reads a 6 as a 9, wouldn't you expect them to fix it, assuming they notice it? If anything, that's abeneift to (some) players, because once in awhile a lottery decides to pay on two sets of numbers.

                          "IF they don't factor in those pre-draws, then their results arevirtually useless except for being a brain exercise or just somethingto do."

                          If they do account for the pre-draws, and if they even account for which ball set and which machine was used for every drawing, how would they account for the ball set and machine that are randonmly chosen for the official drawing? IMHO, there's no doubt tha there is some very minor non-randomness in the  drawing process, but it's absolutely impossible to account for al of the data that has some affect on the outcome.

                          "That isn't changing the numbers, it's correcting them.  If an announcer mistakenly reads a 6 as a 9, wouldn't you expect them to fix it, assuming they notice it? If anything, that's abeneift to (some) players, because once in awhile a lottery decides to pay on two sets of numbers."

                           

                          This happened in last nights Powerball drawing.Mike Pace called the first 5 numbers correctly and called the Powerball wrong.The Powerball was 36 and Mike Pace said it was 38.He never aknowledged that he called it wrong.Since I had 38 as the Powerball on one of my tickets,should I cry foul and demand that Powerball pay me or should I just accept the fact that mistakes happen?

                            Littleoldlady's avatar - basket
                            Clarksville
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                            Posted: January 1, 2009, 4:55 pm - IP Logged

                            the question is:  if the lotteries manipulate the outcome is it illegal?  my answer is..they are doing it more and more and none of them have been arrested yet because it brings money in for the state and "education". 

                            If you know your number is going to hit, have patience and then KILL IT!

                            You never know when you will get another hit.

                              stribman's avatar - chi
                              georgia
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                              Posted: January 1, 2009, 7:44 pm - IP Logged

                              I agree with you about some states manipulate the outcome, but there clever about it, and yes there certified, but some machines have different draw patterns, also they change out ball sets, and mix them daily, perhaps in the name of randomness, or the pretense   of making sure they work. but compare the outcome of win totals and you see a pattern. Yes the lottery adds to education, but it also pays top execs. Big bonus. and as far as I know there’s nothing you can do but complain , and or play elsewhere.