Like with immigration, congress does the opposite of what the people want
The House passed legislation Tuesday that would prevent gamblers from using credit cards to bet online and could block access to gambling Web sites.
The legislation would clarify and update current law to spell out that most gambling is illegal online. But there would be exceptions - for state-run lotteries and horse racing - and passage isn't a safe bet in the Senate, where Republican leaders have not considered the measure a high priority.
The House voted 317-93 for the bill, which would allow authorities to work with Internet providers to block access to gambling Web sites.
Critics argued that regulating the $12 billion industry would be better than outlawing it. Said Rep. Barney Frank (news, bio, voting record), D-Mass., "Prohibition didn't work for alcohol. It won't work for gambling."
The American Gaming Association, the industry's largest lobby, has opposed online gambling in the past but recently backed a study of the feasibility of regulating it.
The Internet gambling industry is headquartered almost entirely outside the United States, though about half its customers live in the U.S.
Reps. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and Jim Leach, R-Iowa sponsored the bill. They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries.
Goodlatte called that "a poison pill amendment," aimed at defeating the larger bill.
Supporters of the measure argued that Internet betting can be addictive and can lead people to lose their savings.
Leach said the problem is particularly acute for young people who are frequently on the Internet. "Never before has it been so easy to lose so much money so quickly at such a young age," he said.
Rep. Shelley Berkley (news, bio, voting record), D-Nev., pushed for removal of the exemptions. She said it was unfair to allow online lotteries and Internet betting on horse racing to flourish while cracking down on other kinds of sports betting, casino games and card games like poker.
Supporters of Internet gambling agreed.
"They call it a prohibition. It's really Congress picking winners and losers," said Michael Bolcerek, president of the Poker Players Alliance, a San Francisco-based group that opposed the bill.
Congress has considered similar legislation in the past.
In 2000, disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff led a fierce campaign against it on behalf of an online lottery company. Supporters of the bill brought up that history Tuesday and suggested that a vote for the bill was a way to make a statement against Abramoff's influence.
However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states.
Under the provision that relates to horse racing, betting operators would not be prohibited from any activity allowed under the Interstate Horseracing Act. That law was written in the 1970s to set up rules for interstate betting on racing. The industry successfully lobbied for legislation several years ago to clarify that horse racing over the Internet is allowed.
Greg Avioli, chief executive officer of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, said the mention of horse racing in the bill is merely "a recognition of existing federal law."
Avioli said the racing industry has a strong future in the digital age and suggested the bill would send Internet gamblers to racing sites and away from the banned sites.
The Justice Department has taken a different view on the legality of Internet betting on horse races. In a World Trade Organization case involving Antigua, the department said online betting on horse racing remains illegal under the 1961 Wire Act despite the existence of the more recently passed, and updated, Interstate Horseracing Act.
The department hasn't actively enforced its stance.
Like the racing industry, professional sports leagues also like the bill. They argue that Web wagering could hurt the integrity of their sports.
Sen. Jon Kyl (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., is leading support for the ban in the Senate. The issue has not been debated in that chamber this year, and the measure hasn't been identified by Senate leaders as a top priority.
If the horse provision were stricken from the bill, there's a good chance the measure would run into objections from Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and others from racing states.
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
I agree with Todd's comment and I would like to add that whenever they push for something that the majority doesn't want, they are trying to move their agenda thru and usually something else is included in the bill that they aren't telling you!!!
Just remember, if they say left, they mean right and if they say stop, they mean go, if it should be good, it's bad and if it is wrong, it's right!!!
U.S. House of representives is full of a bunch of bastards who are trying to bastardize America into something pathetic. I can see it now no more gambling no more playboy no more beer no more cigars no more red meat. Hell they might as well give up their groceries while they are at it because they do not have any sacks to carry them in.-weshar75
I think it will pass the Senate. The same forces and lobbyists that got the bill to pass with such a big margin in the House are still on Capital Hill. They know where the Senate is located!!
Ok, so we can go to the casinos and spend what we want, the race tracks and blah, blah, and we can shop on-line with what-ever transfer of funds we choose, but..............oh, no, on-line gambling...what a damper...i agree with Todd!
we don't know what they're going to do, nor how fast can they actually do it! but as being in this lottery community, what can we do? i have voted against computerized drawings, most of us probably have, but what can we do?
get it while we can i know, but any other ideas! sensible ones i mean?
Yes, there are things everyone can do. Get all your friends and neighbors registered to vote. If your representatives are up for re-election, vote the sorry asses out. It's might be too late to stop them, but it will send a message to the Senate. Americans, for the last 30 years have not paid any attention what-so-ever to what their representatives are doing in Washington. That's why the sorry asses think and can, get away with anything. I doubt if 10% of them give a damn about individuals, it's their own agendas, they care about. They are right now talking about letting illegal immigrants draw Social Security.
Ok, so we can go to the casinos and spend what we want, the race tracks and blah, blah, and we can shop on-line with what-ever transfer of funds we choose, but..............oh, no, on-line gambling...what a damper...i agree with Todd!
we don't know what they're going to do, nor how fast can they actually do it! but as being in this lottery community, what can we do? i have voted against computerized drawings, most of us probably have, but what can we do?
get it while we can i know, but any other ideas! sensible ones i mean?
We will have to just bet our own states by buying tickets at the store. We can all continue posting our picks here on LP for others to choose who is doing well in their state. I don't like thinking that I can't bet Michigan Pick 3 any more, but if that is the law, I will abide by it. I don't like paying tax on my winnings, but I have found that betting Pick 3 str/box here in California is the way to go. If I think a number is going to hit, I play it str/box each way (usually a double, so 3-ways). If it does hit straight, I get 3 or 6 very nice payouts and each ticket is under $600!! No tax.
I'm so glad people can experience the joys that those of us in WA state have been feeling. And yes they can also stop ALL gambling sites including this one. For those that think "that won't affect me" and visit this site they are very wrong.
You know things are screwed up when I am agreeing with Barney Frank on the futility of a prohibition. Only thing left is supporting suites against this in the World Court. I have a feeling it will get steam rolled through the Senate as well. After all we have the harshest law and it's all Democrats here.
The part about stopping credit card use does not hinder anyone. I have a special bank account set up for nothing but wagering, mostly sports and lotto. I never deposit or collect from a gambling site directly. It is done through a middle man (e-bank, net-Teller , etc)
One site has said' they don't run thelotto, the state does, they just accept your bet on what the number will be.'
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
Actually, it is our politicians that are sickening.
Well, this is no joking matter anymore. It this passes I will be one mad mean white boy. I don't know if having the middle man( netteller...etc) will make any difference. They probably have an answer for that as well. Its all about money but isn't everything. The fat arses sit behind the desk and make all the money, while everyone else does the work. OK, I'm drifting a little. Don't get me riled up, please.....
Those who have fought and died for our right to have freedoms are becoming more and more irrelevant.
DD
HAPPY TUESDAY....7/11/.....ANYWAY...."DD"
The real reason, this is happening (IMAO) is because Congress has no way of "taxing it or controlling it...so they want to kill it. This would be only the beginning. They can go after Horse Racing whenever they feel like it. Just think of the Taxes they could collect, for this and any on-line gambling if they had the "control " they want over it. Just like Liquor and Cigs....Congress can tax it to death, so it's legal to drink anything, anytime and practically anywhere you like. Sure it's bad for your health to drink, but we do it anyway, and they tax it anyway.
They already tax our lotto/lottery winnings.........
Long time no see my friend. I agree with you. It is ridiculous how the govt will shut something down because they can't get their filthy mitts on some of the cash flow. Otherwise even pot would be legal in this country. As proud an American I am, I sometimes find myself thinking to myself "what happened to land of the free?"
I know I know, before I start getting people all pizzed at me...I am exaggerating that last thought, because we have it better than anyone, but I hate when my govt tells me what I can and cannot do.
Online gambling and prostitution should be legalized and regulated and taxed, eventually eliminating the income tax. This country might as well be supported by the activities its citizens enjoy!
for the people in these no lottery states it is bad we have to drive to another state or find a good bookie lol
That's the reason I cussed so hard. I don't want to go back to the bookies. NC is going to hold off on the pick 3's as long as they can make money on scratchers.
I have an idea! The U.S. Government won't listen to us, but the ISPs will. If we write them as a group and threaten to drop their service if they block gambling sites, they will listen. They don't want to lose customers over something like this. This means AOL, MSN, Earthlink, etc. Money talks with them!! Remind them that we will migrate to ISPs that refuse to block gaming sites. Greed rules!!
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
It is very sickening indeed and I warned everyone it would probably happen because I sat and watched the same thing happen to smokers who bought online and like you all who just can't believe something like this is could in America so were the smokers and they put up a good fight as well. But all the letters, petitions, anger and hooting did not a lick of good it still happened.
I don't gamble online but my heart goes out to those that do and it is very well indeed an injustice. I am ashamed to sit here and watch this all unfold knowing it would probably happen. One by one our freedoms are being plucked out from under us. As much as the credit card companies hate to see these things happen, really there is not much they can do about this but comply.
These things are totally shocking and one must wonder if Freedom still rings In America!
I have an idea! The U.S. Government won't listen to us, but the ISPs will. If we write them as a group and threaten to drop their service if they block gambling sites, they will listen. They don't want to lose customers over something like this. This means AOL, MSN, Earthlink, etc. Money talks with them!! Remind them that we will migrate to ISPs that refuse to block gaming sites. Greed rules!!
Orangeman
The only problem with that is that you need to have an ISP that services your area, so they will be located in the USA. And the new law states that the government can compell the ISPs to block sites.
I was very serious that this bill is the start of something very bad for all of us, not just the gambling croud. Between this, the new laws enabling ISPs to restrict bandwidth of whatever content they wish, and the wholesale Internet wire tapping that is going on, they are gearing up for a whole new level of control that will make Big Brother look like Tiny Tim.
Yes, please, please protect me from myself, big brother. Don't you love how they come off as trying to protect people from going broke ;when you know darn well what it really comes down to. Time to vote some of the bad eggs out. Oh, wait there all bad eggs. That's the objective, there are no good choices and that's the way they want it. Republican or Democrat, basically the same, only minor differences.
When someone comes between big business and money, someone gets run over. The problem is that most Americans don't have the guts to stand up against their government. We would rather watch American Idol and drink beer that protect our God-given rights. Shame on us. No guts no glory!!! Are you willing to stand up against these miscreants??
Yes, I am. For one thing, I tell it like it is on my web site, and try to expose their idiocy to millions of people. (Just as we are discussing the topic right now.) I also write to my local papers and representatives. I wish more people would do the same.
Good to hear that. I was afraid that the government might have threatened to shut you down, too.
The government we have now is worse than anything the British "oppressed" us with in 1776. We currently pay 40% of our income to state, local and federal entities. We can't afford gasoline, we can't afford food for our children and we are under constant scrutiny by the rising security state. If the American people don't stand up and condemn this current regime, we should apologize to King George III. He just imposed a small tax on tea to help defray the cost of fighting the French in the French and Indian War! Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Madison and Adams are spinning in their graves!!!
The Founding Fathers were a lot smarter than you will ever be.
Slavery was not part of this discussion. Don't drag slavery into everything. It doesn't always fit into every argument. Get over it.
Orangeman
You must not be too smart to get angry just because I didn't agree with you. How smart is that? I don't have the right to disagree with you? It's funny - you feel like your rights are being taken away from you and don't want to give another human the right to disagree with you.
Flood your senators offices with emails about this and about the immigration issue.http://senate.gov/
Become a lobbying force all your own and let them know what you think.
Remember that farce immigration debacle the senate handed out that the house didn't agree with because people didn't want amnesty ........ someone obviously emailed or called their representatives.
The door swings both ways ............ call or write about this issue and about immigration, and do so as 2 separate emails if doing it like that and let them know your feelings.
The legislation would clarify and update current law to spell out that most gambling is illegal online. But there would be exceptions - for state-run lotteries and horse racing - and passage isn't a safe bet in the Senate, where Republican leaders have not considered the measure a high priority.
this information gives us a little bit of hope........
Monday, July 10, 2006 5:43:47 AM ET Dow Jones Newswires
0826 GMT [Dow Jones] The possibility of a combined Leach and Goodlatte bill on internet gambling getting through both the House of Representatives and the Senate during the current Congress is very slim, says an analyst. Reckons both Leach's and Goodlatte's bill will be combined with the earliest likely House of Representatives vote taking place July 10. Sees the bill passing through the House, a move which is expected by investors. But with only around 7-8 weeks left of Congress after that the bill is unlikely to be able to progress given the tight end of Congress legislation timetable in the Senate. PartyGaming (PRTY.LN) trades -0.5% at 107.5p, 888 (888.LN) unchanged at 208p. (DWE)
However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states.
Taken from the article at the beginning of this thread
Monday, July 10, 2006 5:43:47 AM ET Dow Jones Newswires
0826 GMT [Dow Jones] The possibility of a combined Leach and Goodlatte bill on internet gambling getting through both the House of Representatives and the Senate during the current Congress is very slim, says an analyst. Reckons both Leach's and Goodlatte's bill will be combined with the earliest likely House of Representatives vote taking place July 10. Sees the bill passing through the House, a move which is expected by investors. But with only around 7-8 weeks left of Congress after that the bill is unlikely to be able to progress given the tight end of Congress legislation timetable in the Senate. PartyGaming (PRTY.LN) trades -0.5% at 107.5p, 888 (888.LN) unchanged at 208p. (DWE)
Talking heads say anything to capture a headline so they can gloat if they called it correctly ........
It's not over until the fat lady sings, and to anyone who has any interest in this bill I suggest you email, call your congress persons or take whatever slop they decide to dish out when special interests finish with them.
However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states.
Taken from the article at the beginning of this thread
ez
i might be wrong.correct me if i am.they are talking about state lotteries.however online lotteries that you bet on that are offshore where you bet on all states will be outlawed.
When did these big whigs worry about us poor working class people loosing our life savings,I don't think they worried to much when Enron and it's big shots really took all of it's employees life savings, then find Ken Lay Guilty and he conventiely died before he could be sentenced or did he,makes you wonder don't it,could work like the witness protection program I guess.
Good to hear that. I was afraid that the government might have threatened to shut you down, too.
The government we have now is worse than anything the British "oppressed" us with in 1776. We currently pay 40% of our income to state, local and federal entities. We can't afford gasoline, we can't afford food for our children and we are under constant scrutiny by the rising security state. If the American people don't stand up and condemn this current regime, we should apologize to King George III. He just imposed a small tax on tea to help defray the cost of fighting the French in the French and Indian War! Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Madison and Adams are spinning in their graves!!!
I think this is very interesting....in my soul, I don't think it will pass. Not to mention the ISPs stand to lose a lot of money from unhappy customers. Which will be an opportunity for an offshore ISP to start, make billions from those who wish to have freedom in their Internet browsing.
Everyone who keeps saying that lotteries and horse racing are allowed under the bill, STOP SAYING THAT. Lotteries and horse racing are NOT included in the bill.
Re-read the article at the beginning of this thread. It says:
Reps. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and Jim Leach, R-Iowa sponsored the bill. They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries.
Goodlatte called that "a poison pill amendment," aimed at defeating the larger bill.
By continuing to say that lotteries are exempted, you are giving false hope to people.
I was asked through private messaging about what happens next in the life of this bill. I'm going to answer here so everyone can benefit. For any questions that could benefit many people, I would prefer those questions to be posted in the forums, rather than thru PM.
At this point, the Senate will draft their own version of the bill, then they will debate it, and then vote on it. If it passes, then representatives from the House and the Senate will meet and resolve any differences in the bills. Then it goes to the President to sign. The vast majority of bills get signed if they make it that far (President Bush has not issued a single veto so far).
Ways that the process can fail:
The Senate does not act before the current session expires (in 6-7 weeks)
The Senate doesn't have enough "yes" votes to put the bill through
The House and Senate cannot come to agreement on differences between their bills
Everyone who keeps saying that lotteries and horse racing are allowed under the bill, STOP SAYING THAT. Lotteries and horse racing are NOT included in the bill.
Re-read the article at the beginning of this thread. It says:
Reps. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and Jim Leach, R-Iowa sponsored the bill. They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries.
Goodlatte called that "a poison pill amendment," aimed at defeating the larger bill.
By continuing to say that lotteries are exempted, you are giving false hope to people.
"They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries."
I know that most reporters would be lucky to get a C in 6th grade English class, but I think that sentence is pretty clear, and it's accurate. The bill has exemptions for horse racing and state lotteries. There was an amendment to remove those exemptions, and the amendment was defeated.
Personally, I don't mind seeing the government regulate online gambling and taxing it in some way. That would assure it would continue. They tax cigarettes and booze. These "vices" continue just fine because the government needs the revenue.
If it were regulated, your ISP charges, home computer, lottery software, etc, would become tax write-offs. You could buy a new computer every year and write it off as a business expense. Heck, you could probably deduct some off your house payment for a home office if you made enough profit.
Lottery software companies would make a mint and the technology would flourish. With more and more jobs being shipped overseas, regulating and taxing off shore gambling could become a legal source of income for thousands of unemployed people.
Everyone who keeps saying that lotteries and horse racing are allowed under the bill, STOP SAYING THAT. Lotteries and horse racing are NOT included in the bill.
Re-read the article at the beginning of this thread. It says:
Reps. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and Jim Leach, R-Iowa sponsored the bill. They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries.
Goodlatte called that "a poison pill amendment," aimed at defeating the larger bill.
By continuing to say that lotteries are exempted, you are giving false hope to people.
"They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries."
I know that most reporters would be lucky to get a C in 6th grade English class, but I think that sentence is pretty clear, and it's accurate. The bill has exemptions for horse racing and state lotteries. There was an amendment to remove those exemptions, and the amendment was defeated.
This is what i'm reading from the original story...
"However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states."
i'm not going to put my political views here any more.i think it distracts from the lottery topic at hand.about what i posted earlier you have to remember where i'm from and where i was raised.memphis,tennessee doesn't exactly have a good history of race relations.martin luther king was assassinated here in 1968.the world may have changed in other places but here things remain very much frosty.so before you judge me take into account what i've been through and where i am.this is one of the poorest regions in the nation.while you might have good harmony where you are that might not exactly be the case where i'm located.and for the record i'm not racist and a i have friends of all races.thank you for letting me clear this up...........
"Reps. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and Jim Leach, R-Iowa sponsored the bill. They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries."
beat back = blocked? eliminated?
strip out = remove?
exemptions = allowing of?
it would read "successfully eliminated an amendment to remove the allowing of horse racing/lotteries." Meaning, the legislation HAS exemptions for horse racing/lottery which the Reps. PROTECTED... IF I am reading this correctly.
QUESTION OF THE DAY: What about PayPal?????? I am sure that online casinos can find some alternate method of keeping accounts.. I mean it's a pain-in-the-neck to send a check to an online casino to fund one's account but that's NOT being outlawed so far.. ONLY credit card payments right?
I've been wondering all afternoon who is the lobbying interest behind H.R.4411.
Clark Howard is a radio and tv consumer advocate who normally knows who or what issue is behind various legislation.
He is not in favor of any kind of gambling, but please read past his opinion to who is the lobbying interest behind the push to stop it.
For those who've said follow the money trail, you are indeed correct.
Credit card companies are apparently losing $$$$$$$ so are the lobbying interest behind the ban.
___________________________
"Stay away from online gambling
There is one kind of "dot com" that Clark hopes you will avoid – online gambling sites. If you get a lot of junk e-mails or pop-up ads and you’re not into gambling, you may not think twice about it. But if you’re at all intrigued by the idea of “express cash” and making quick money on the Web, you could get taken. Clicking on these links could sign you up for a line of credit at a casino where they give you a loan to gamble. And these sites have ruined peoples’ lives. Credit card companies are up in arms over these sites because people use the cards to get more money to play. And many blow so much borrowed money that they end up filing for bankruptcy. Even if you enjoy gambling, please don’t get involved in online gambling. There is a huge potential for loss with regular gambling, but online it’s even worse. If you need help, check out gamblersanonymous.org. "
My sincere apologies to all for my insistence that lotteries and horse racing were excluded. I simply read the sentence incorrectly, and really screwed it up. I have taken out the bullet point in the beginning of the story that wrongly stated that lotteries were not included.
Note that the bill is still VERY bad for people who like to play the lottery, because it tries to block access to state lottery alternatives online.
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it 2-the casinos in vegas are losing action 3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
Mike, since the banking industry seems to be the steam roller behind this bill then it doesn't look good for online gamblers.
Banking industry is no doubt the lobby behind recent bankruptcy law changes, also recent credit card repayment tightening so this legislation looks like the third big wheel on the steam roller. All makes sense to me.
However, one question is whether debit cards fall under the same category as credit cards, also do bank drafts fall under the category of wire transfers? Don't have a clue on either.
I would imagine debit cards will fall within that frame...aren't they somehow linked to the VISA/MC system?
If I understand correctly, most banks will not allow their credit cards to fishy sites in their eyes anyway, such as online gambling, porn, etc. So I kind of wonder why they are pushing for this. I would almost say that it's the land-based casino lobby, who probably is pushing for a cut in the action.
I think at least part of this was caused by some of the shyster operators who opened up offshore sports books early on in the days of the internet, set themselves up to take credit cards, and then never paid a winning bet and closed up shop.
There was also a 60 Minutes report on a (read one) poker site, owned by an American in the Bahamas, that's taking oin $12,000,000 a year.
Times how many offshore gambling sites and that = a lot of lost taxes.
When the river boat casinos came to St Louis, bankruptcies went up 400% - and that's with "brick and mortar" casinos. So it's not too hard to fathom that some people can get themselves in way to deep sitting home and playing online.
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it 2-the casinos in vegas are losing action 3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
Mike, since the banking industry seems to be the steam roller behind this bill then it doesn't look good for online gamblers.
Banking industry is no doubt the lobby behind recent bankruptcy law changes, also recent credit card repayment tightening so this legislation looks like the third big wheel on the steam roller. All makes sense to me.
However, one question is whether debit cards fall under the same category as credit cards, also do bank drafts fall under the category of wire transfers? Don't have a clue on either.
i read that too.seems like all these forces together might give this bill enough of a push to pass.i'm going to be honest i think the whole party is over.it was fun while it lasted.i made nearly 5 grand since todd introduced betslips here in february so its gonna hurt pretty bad
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it 2-the casinos in vegas are losing action 3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
Mike, since the banking industry seems to be the steam roller behind this bill then it doesn't look good for online gamblers.
Banking industry is no doubt the lobby behind recent bankruptcy law changes, also recent credit card repayment tightening so this legislation looks like the third big wheel on the steam roller. All makes sense to me.
However, one question is whether debit cards fall under the same category as credit cards, also do bank drafts fall under the category of wire transfers? Don't have a clue on either.
i read that too.seems like all these forces together might give this bill enough of a push to pass.i'm going to be honest i think the whole party is over.it was fun while it lasted.i made nearly 5 grand since todd introduced betslips here in february so its gonna hurt pretty bad
U.S. House passes Internet gambling ban By UPI Staff United Press International July 13, 2006
WASHINGTON (UPI) -- The U.S. House has overwhelmingly backed a bill to ban most forms of Internet gambling and require banks to block payments to offshore* Web sites.
Thanks Todd! The title of the bill from that web site says:
"Internet Gambling bill
Official Title: To prevent the use of certain payment instruments, credit cards, and fund transfers for unlawful Internet gambling, and for other purposes."
Somewhere in the bill, I'm sure, they give the definition of "unlawful Internet gambling" and the "other purposes" (possibly terrorist related?). I personally don't think something like betslips.com qualifies as "unlawful".
I have been doing some hard thinking on the whys and wherefores of this issue. Hear me out on this.
The credit card companies are already scared pea green over rising balances. The reason why families are coping with high gasoline prices is the fact that many are putting their gas on Visa/Mastercard and NOT paying off their charges.
Online gambling is an extension of this fear. Gambling increases during hard times as families struggle to make ends meet. Many gamble on their credit cards, run up the balances and NEVER pay them off. Once again, the pea green factor comes into play.
Playing on your credit card is pretty dumb, anyway. That really needs to stop. You really shouldn't play on credit and I agree with this part of the bill.
The real issue is blocking access to Internet sites. The Net is the most significant advance in human communication since movable type and it would be a shame to mess it up over online gambling. Like the camel with it's nose under the tent, pretty soon the camel is under your bed.
We should write our Senators and let them know how we feel and email the ISPs to let them know they will lose business if they kow tow to federal legislation that would block access to gambling sites.
The wise thing would be to legalize and regulate online gambling of all types, ban credit card use and collect any taxes.
Everyone wins if we follow this approach. "The children" are protected, "the morons" cannot run up their credit cards on a whim and the government makes millions on gambling profits. The credit card companies can change from pea green to dark green again, the church groups have been thrown their sop and the pigs in Congress have more pork to pass around.
Most importantly, we have the option to play online or not.
It is a choice issue more than anything else. I don't smoke, but I don't want to ban smoking. I don't drink, but I don't want to ban drinking. I play a little online, though. Everyone is entitled to at least one vice.
i agree orangeman as a former smoker,former drinker and former druggie(its been seven years on any of these vices for me) i have one vice and that is a little gambling.i guess i'll chew gum or something when its banned,lol.
in all seriousness i would rather them regulate it and tax it than ban it.
I'll preface this post by saying that I have no respect for the New York times ongoing publishing of classified information which has compromised national security. I hope they are charged and prosecuted to the fullest extent the law provides.
That being said here is a paragraph from one of their articles concerning lobbying groups pushing to get the internet gambling ban enacted. Logic prevails that they're at least partially correct although I read on a couple of conservative discussion sites that they felt our rights to choose were being removed and were pretty much against the legislation.
_______
........"Intensive lobbying has surrounded various versions of the bills for years, with newcomers like celebrity poker players joining the fray this time around. Americans are now estimated to spend nearly $6 billion of the $12 billion bet worldwide on Internet games and sports. A broad coalition of the major sports leagues, banking institutions, law enforcement, family values coalitions and religious groups of all denominations rallied on behalf of an online gambling ban.".............
The passage of a bill on the House floor by a 317 to 93 vote banning online gambling has failed to hurt gambling company shares. In fact, it seems to have done quite the opposite.
Both Sportingbet and PartyGaming's shares rose after analysts said the latest attempt to ban internet casinos would fail despite its overwhelming support by the House.
The Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act was co-sponsored by Republican congressman Bob Goodlatte, who has called online gaming a "scourge on our society". It was passed by 317 votes to 93.
And while Arizona Republican Senator Jon Kyl is an adamant supporter of anti-online gambling legislation, the Senate is yet to make this a priority and its passage on the Senate floor appears unlikely at this time. The Arizona Senator has said he will aggressively pursuit it (an online gambling ban) nonetheless.
The Senate is not likely to find enough time to debate the bill prior to its yearly recess, which would then mean another bill would have to be drafted for next year and for a seventh consecutive year (excluding 2005 where there was no proposed legislation), attempts to stymie online gambling would once more fail.
Internet gamblers worried about losing their hobby may take comfort from this golden nugget of information.
Those who advise Internet gambling investors don't seem worried at all.
London-based financial analysts see Tuesday's vote by the U.S. House of Representatives to ban Internet gambling as much ado about nothing, according to Reuters.
That's because analysts don't expect the U.S. Senate to act on the bill in time for it to become law, thus rendering the House's vote moot. Backing up their beliefs are reports in the U.S. that Senate leadership has not made the gambling bill a top priority.
Such news may ease the fears of gamblers poised to yank money from their online accounts in reaction to the House vote.
Internet gamblers wager real money online by opening an account with a gambling Web site. They often use credit cards to fund the accounts, but also can use other methods such as cashier's checks and online services such as blank.
Once an account is established, a gambler's wins and losses are added and subtracted from that account. Gamblers can withdraw money from their account at any time, regaining their funds via a check or by having the money returned to their credit card or blank account.
Analysts are paying attention across the Atlantic because companies that run some high-profile online gambling sites are traded on the London Stock Exchange.
The bill passed by the House on Tuesday would forbid credit cards and other forms of payment from being used to settle online wagers.
But Nick Jones, a 21-year-old medic at Battle Creek Health System and an avid online poker player, said he'd be surprised if the bill became law.
"It seems unlikely to me that it would happen - that they would shut down a multibillion dollar industry that way," Jones said Tuesday evening at Arcadia Brewing Co. in downtown Battle Creek,Michigan.
And those London analysts agree with Jones.
"Only about seven or eight weeks of Congress will be left for the merged House bill to negotiate the various Senate committees," Richard Carter of Numis Securities said in a Tuesday Reuters article. "In our view this is not enough time for the bill to progress, given the tight end-of-Congress legislation timetable in the Senate."
In fact, according to Reuters, analysts believe that news of the House's vote in favor of the ban will provide enough weakness in online gaming stocks to offer short-term investment opportunities.
Among the online gambling stocks being targeted are PartyGaming, which runs the popular PartyPoker site, and Sportingbet, which is affiliated with Paradise Poker, both of which are traded in London.
"We continue to believe that full passage into law is very unlikely, and would look to buy PartyGaming and Sportingbet on any weakness," Reuters quoted Morgan Stanley as saying in its Tuesday article.
I agree with Orangeman. The problem fueling this bill is not gambling itself but due to the credit card companies. Even porn sites are being restricted to not using the major credit card companies. Morality aside, it is the enormous unpaid debt being created due to cards illegally used through identity theft, minors illegally using parents' card, and finally the people with addictive personalities who unfortunately become "gamblers". This last item is what the politicians are fronting but not the true reason.
The solution is quite simple. The porn sites use paypal which can be paid by check or electronic funds transfer. So money is physically there. The government can authorize and/or create a site like paypal to that does the same which would automatically send the IRS the necessary tax information on winnings. Since withdrawals (losses) and winnings would be listed like a bank statement, the hassle of tax deductions on winnings would also be solved and your losses most importantly would be shown also (since losses tend to be hard to prove).
the only thing to do now is sit back and wait on the outcome.i feel like i'm watching an execution of a loved one,lol.maybe it will get pardoned in the last minutes and gain its life back.......
"In the summer of 1941, New York Mayor Fiorello La Guardia, affectionately known as 'the Little Flower' to his constituents, took leave from his normal duties to declare all-out war on an evil that threatened his city. Before an assembled crush of photographers and reporters, La Guardia spoke for a few moments and then picked up a sledgehammer. His eyes popping nearly out of his head, he flexed his shoulders, hoisted the sledgehammer into the air, and brought it crashing down on the polished glass face of the enemy: a shiny, brand- new pinball machine. As strange as the mayor's behavior might seem today, in 1941 a war against pinball was no laughing matter. Pinball machines were devices for gambling. New York would remain pinball-free for 35 years.
In a bizarre move, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to ban Internet gambling this week by an astonishing 317-93 margin. The bill, which has generated no substantial support in the Senate and is widely regarded as an election year ploy, is expected to die quietly in conference.
WASHINGTON -- Don't bet on the Senate following the lead of the House in approving a bill that limits Internet gambling.
It is not a top priority for Senate leaders, although its main supporter, Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl, said he will aggressively pursue it.
The bill makes it illegal to use credit cards to pay for online bets.
It is part of an effort to put a stop to the growing popularity of online gambling.
Supporters of the bill say it has caused numerous problems, including huge financial losses and addictions to gambling.
Opponents say it's a mistake to try to regulate the industry, noting that prohibition didn't work for alcohol and won't work for gambling.
They're also unhappy that it carves out exceptions for horse racing and lotteries.
BUSINESS UP ON NEWS OF ONLINE GAMBLING BAN
Not what the US legislators would expect to see
Fears that the US House of Representatives vote to ban online gambling would impact on share prices were clearly exaggerated, as London share prices on gambling companies actually improved.
Shares in the PartyPoker giant – the world’s biggest online poker company - lifted more than 5 percent as investors in London gambled on a less enthusiastic response to the Bill when it reaches the Senate.
Smaller operators also benefited, with shares in Sportingbet up 4 percent and Empire Online 1 percent higher, although 888 Holdings fell half a penny.
ABN Amro analyst Michael Pacitti said support for online gaming stocks came amid doubts that the Bill will get through the Senate.
“Congress approved the Bill to prohibit online gaming,” he said. “This was expected. The Bill must now go to the Senate where we believe there will be greater opposition.”
The Internet Gambling Prohibition Act is sponsored by Republicans Bob Goodlatte, of Virginia, and Jim Leach, of Iowa, who managed to get similar Bills through Congress in 2002 and 2003 but failed to win the support of the Senate.
“We doubt that this most recent attempt will have greater success,” said Pacitti.
“What changes in practice following the passage of this Bill in the lower house? Nothing.
“PartyGaming and others can continue to operate as they currently do.”
Analysts at Dresdner Kleinwort added that there may not be time for the Bill to gain Senate backing with just 15 business days to the summer recess and 32 days before the mid-term elections in November. Dresdner said: “The probability of the Bill passing Senate has not gone up.”
Online gaming shares have suffered in recent months by uncertainty caused by the threat of the ban under the Bill, with PartyGaming shares slumping 6 percent since the Bill was introduced.
"In the summer of 1941, New York Mayor Fiorello La Guardia, affectionately known as 'the Little Flower' to his constituents, took leave from his normal duties to declare all-out war on an evil that threatened his city. Before an assembled crush of photographers and reporters, La Guardia spoke for a few moments and then picked up a sledgehammer. His eyes popping nearly out of his head, he flexed his shoulders, hoisted the sledgehammer into the air, and brought it crashing down on the polished glass face of the enemy: a shiny, brand- new pinball machine. As strange as the mayor's behavior might seem today, in 1941 a war against pinball was no laughing matter. Pinball machines were devices for gambling. New York would remain pinball-free for 35 years.
Tinker,
Thanks for that historical background. A great example of ridiculous "protection" for our own good.
The best protection for our own good would be to make it available to the voters to instantaneously impeach our "protectors". Every Monday there should be an impeachment election.
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
I didn't think of it that way, Todd. But I think you could be right. I'm still not convinced that the Senate will even discuss it yet.
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
I agree with Todd's comment and I would like to add that whenever they push for something that the majority doesn't want, they are trying to move their agenda thru and usually something else is included in the bill that they aren't telling you!!!
Just remember, if they say left, they mean right and if they say stop, they mean go, if it should be good, it's bad and if it is wrong, it's right!!!
Just food for thought...........
U.S. House of representives is full of a bunch of bastards who are trying to bastardize America into something pathetic. I can see it now no more gambling no more playboy no more beer no more cigars no more red meat. Hell they might as well give up their groceries while they are at it because they do not have any sacks to carry them in.-weshar75
What's next ?
Those who have fought and died for our right to have freedoms are becoming more and more irrelevant.
DD
I think it will pass the Senate. The same forces and lobbyists that got the bill to pass with such a big margin in the House are still on Capital Hill. They know where the Senate is located!!
Ok, so we can go to the casinos and spend what we want, the race tracks and blah, blah, and we can shop on-line with what-ever transfer of funds we choose, but..............oh, no, on-line gambling...what a damper...i agree with Todd!
we don't know what they're going to do, nor how fast can they actually do it! but as being in this lottery community, what can we do? i have voted against computerized drawings, most of us probably have, but what can we do?
get it while we can i know, but any other ideas! sensible ones i mean?
Yes, there are things everyone can do. Get all your friends and neighbors registered to vote. If your representatives are up for re-election, vote the sorry asses out. It's might be too late to stop them, but it will send a message to the Senate. Americans, for the last 30 years have not paid any attention what-so-ever to what their representatives are doing in Washington. That's why the sorry asses think and can, get away with anything. I doubt if 10% of them give a damn about individuals, it's their own agendas, they care about. They are right now talking about letting illegal immigrants draw Social Security.
Next thing we know we will try to log on to LP and it will be blocked as a "gambling site"
Any website with the buzzword "lottery" is already blocked in many wireless hotspots. The next block will come from our ISPs.
As Hank Hill says:
"Dammit Dale, the USA is going to hell in a hurry".
Ok, so we can go to the casinos and spend what we want, the race tracks and blah, blah, and we can shop on-line with what-ever transfer of funds we choose, but..............oh, no, on-line gambling...what a damper...i agree with Todd!
we don't know what they're going to do, nor how fast can they actually do it! but as being in this lottery community, what can we do? i have voted against computerized drawings, most of us probably have, but what can we do?
get it while we can i know, but any other ideas! sensible ones i mean?
We will have to just bet our own states by buying tickets at the store. We can all continue posting our picks here on LP for others to choose who is doing well in their state. I don't like thinking that I can't bet Michigan Pick 3 any more, but if that is the law, I will abide by it. I don't like paying tax on my winnings, but I have found that betting Pick 3 str/box here in California is the way to go. If I think a number is going to hit, I play it str/box each way (usually a double, so 3-ways). If it does hit straight, I get 3 or 6 very nice payouts and each ticket is under $600!! No tax.
for the people in these no lottery states it is bad we have to drive to another state or find a good bookie lol
I'm so glad people can experience the joys that those of us in WA state have been feeling. And yes they can also stop ALL gambling sites including this one. For those that think "that won't affect me" and visit this site they are very wrong.
You know things are screwed up when I am agreeing with Barney Frank on the futility of a prohibition. Only thing left is supporting suites against this in the World Court. I have a feeling it will get steam rolled through the Senate as well. After all we have the harshest law and it's all Democrats here.
The part about stopping credit card use does not hinder anyone. I have a special bank account set up for nothing but wagering, mostly sports and lotto. I never deposit or collect from a gambling site directly. It is done through a middle man (e-bank, net-Teller , etc)
One site has said' they don't run thelotto, the state does, they just accept your bet on what the number will be.'
ez
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
Actually, it is our politicians that are sickening.
Well, this is no joking matter anymore. It this passes I will be one mad mean white boy. I don't know if having the middle man( netteller...etc) will make any difference. They probably have an answer for that as well. Its all about money but isn't everything. The fat arses sit behind the desk and make all the money, while everyone else does the work. OK, I'm drifting a little. Don't get me riled up, please.....
What's next ?
Those who have fought and died for our right to have freedoms are becoming more and more irrelevant.
DD
HAPPY TUESDAY....7/11/.....ANYWAY...."DD"
The real reason, this is happening (IMAO) is because Congress has no way of "taxing it or controlling it...so they want to kill it. This would be only the beginning. They can go after Horse Racing whenever they feel like it. Just think of the Taxes they could collect, for this and any on-line gambling if they had the "control " they want over it. Just like Liquor and Cigs....Congress can tax it to death, so it's legal to drink anything, anytime and practically anywhere you like. Sure it's bad for your health to drink, but we do it anyway, and they tax it anyway.
They already tax our lotto/lottery winnings.........
Didn't they just vote themselves a nice pay raise?
I think online gambling should be regulated to prevent minors to play but not OUTLAW it,
that's a shame.....
Good evening libra!
Long time no see my friend. I agree with you. It is ridiculous how the govt will shut something down because they can't get their filthy mitts on some of the cash flow. Otherwise even pot would be legal in this country. As proud an American I am, I sometimes find myself thinking to myself "what happened to land of the free?"
I know I know, before I start getting people all pizzed at me...I am exaggerating that last thought, because we have it better than anyone, but I hate when my govt tells me what I can and cannot do.
Online gambling and prostitution should be legalized and regulated and taxed, eventually eliminating the income tax. This country might as well be supported by the activities its citizens enjoy!
for the people in these no lottery states it is bad we have to drive to another state or find a good bookie lol
It is interesting that they want to block gaming sites, but let the porn sites rock on. Oh, I forgot, Congress is pornography!
Orangeman
Todd:
I have an idea! The U.S. Government won't listen to us, but the ISPs will. If we write them as a group and threaten to drop their service if they block gambling sites, they will listen. They don't want to lose customers over something like this. This means AOL, MSN, Earthlink, etc. Money talks with them!! Remind them that we will migrate to ISPs that refuse to block gaming sites. Greed rules!!
Orangeman
I am not sure that this will even come up in the Senate, and if it does, it won't pass. IMHO
Up until about a month ago I would agree with you. Now I'm worried, because these things have a tendency to steamroll, and the person who made a comment in another thread about being a diversion from terrorism and immigration is correct. With an election coming up, these politicians are looking for bills they can approve, to show that they are actually doing something useful. This is sickening.
It is very sickening indeed and I warned everyone it would probably happen because I sat and watched the same thing happen to smokers who bought online and like you all who just can't believe something like this is could in America so were the smokers and they put up a good fight as well. But all the letters, petitions, anger and hooting did not a lick of good it still happened.
I don't gamble online but my heart goes out to those that do and it is very well indeed an injustice. I am ashamed to sit here and watch this all unfold knowing it would probably happen. One by one our freedoms are being plucked out from under us. As much as the credit card companies hate to see these things happen, really there is not much they can do about this but comply.
These things are totally shocking and one must wonder if Freedom still rings In America!
Totally Unbelievable to say the least!
Todd:
I have an idea! The U.S. Government won't listen to us, but the ISPs will. If we write them as a group and threaten to drop their service if they block gambling sites, they will listen. They don't want to lose customers over something like this. This means AOL, MSN, Earthlink, etc. Money talks with them!! Remind them that we will migrate to ISPs that refuse to block gaming sites. Greed rules!!
Orangeman
The only problem with that is that you need to have an ISP that services your area, so they will be located in the USA. And the new law states that the government can compell the ISPs to block sites.
I was very serious that this bill is the start of something very bad for all of us, not just the gambling croud. Between this, the new laws enabling ISPs to restrict bandwidth of whatever content they wish, and the wholesale Internet wire tapping that is going on, they are gearing up for a whole new level of control that will make Big Brother look like Tiny Tim.
Yes, please, please protect me from myself, big brother. Don't you love how they come off as trying to protect people from going broke ;when you know darn well what it really comes down to. Time to vote some of the bad eggs out. Oh, wait there all bad eggs. That's the objective, there are no good choices and that's the way they want it. Republican or Democrat, basically the same, only minor differences.
I think it's a disease that affects 95% of the people who get elected.
Todd:
When someone comes between big business and money, someone gets run over. The problem is that most Americans don't have the guts to stand up against their government. We would rather watch American Idol and drink beer that protect our God-given rights. Shame on us. No guts no glory!!! Are you willing to stand up against these miscreants??
Orangeman
Yes, I am. For one thing, I tell it like it is on my web site, and try to expose their idiocy to millions of people. (Just as we are discussing the topic right now.) I also write to my local papers and representatives. I wish more people would do the same.
Good to hear that. I was afraid that the government might have threatened to shut you down, too.
The government we have now is worse than anything the British "oppressed" us with in 1776. We currently pay 40% of our income to state, local and federal entities. We can't afford gasoline, we can't afford food for our children and we are under constant scrutiny by the rising security state. If the American people don't stand up and condemn this current regime, we should apologize to King George III. He just imposed a small tax on tea to help defray the cost of fighting the French in the French and Indian War! Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Madison and Adams are spinning in their graves!!!
Orangeman
www.n.y.dailynews.com has interesting article.
Tenaj:
You're right. I don't agree with you.
The Founding Fathers were a lot smarter than you will ever be.
Slavery was not part of this discussion. Don't drag slavery into everything. It doesn't always fit into every argument. Get over it.
Orangeman
Getting away from ragging on our genious founding fathers, and back to the discussion at hand, here a link to the interesting article Emily mentioned: http://www.nydailynews.com/07-11-2006/business/story/434155p-365775c.html
Tenaj:
You're right. I don't agree with you.
The Founding Fathers were a lot smarter than you will ever be.
Slavery was not part of this discussion. Don't drag slavery into everything. It doesn't always fit into every argument. Get over it.
Orangeman
You sound like those politicians.
I think it's a disease that affects 95% of the people who get elected.
http://cbs2.com/business/finance_story_191182503.html
CBS just did a small story on this subject and they're saying online lottery's and horse racing is exempt from the bill...
From AOL poll today;congress should see this and follow the will of the people
How should Congress respond to Internet gambling?
http://cbs2.com/business/finance_story_191182503.html
CBS just did a small story on this subject and they're saying online lottery's and horse racing is exempt from the bill...
Nope, they killed those carve-outs, check the story at the beginning of this thread.
Flood your senators offices with emails about this and about the immigration issue. http://senate.gov/
Become a lobbying force all your own and let them know what you think.
Remember that farce immigration debacle the senate handed out that the house didn't agree with because people didn't want amnesty ........ someone obviously emailed or called their representatives.
The door swings both ways ............ call or write about this issue and about immigration, and do so as 2 separate emails if doing it like that and let them know your feelings.
Make it short, make it concise and to the point. http://www.house.gov/
Know their voting records on the issues and vote accordingly yourself when the time comes.
You have no excuse other than your own apathy if you do nothing.
The legislation would clarify and update current law to spell out that most gambling is illegal online. But there would be exceptions - for state-run lotteries and horse racing - and passage isn't a safe bet in the Senate, where Republican leaders have not considered the measure a high priority.
this information gives us a little bit of hope........
i also found this.....
Internet Gambling Bill Won't Pass Senate
Monday, July 10, 2006 5:43:47 AM ET
Dow Jones Newswires
0826 GMT [Dow Jones] The possibility of a combined Leach and Goodlatte bill on internet gambling getting through both the House of Representatives and the Senate during the current Congress is very slim, says an analyst. Reckons both Leach's and Goodlatte's bill will be combined with the earliest likely House of Representatives vote taking place July 10. Sees the bill passing through the House, a move which is expected by investors. But with only around 7-8 weeks left of Congress after that the bill is unlikely to be able to progress given the tight end of Congress legislation timetable in the Senate. PartyGaming (PRTY.LN) trades -0.5% at 107.5p, 888 (888.LN) unchanged at 208p. (DWE)
However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states.
Taken from the article at the beginning of this thread
ez
i also found this.....
Internet Gambling Bill Won't Pass Senate
Monday, July 10, 2006 5:43:47 AM ET
Dow Jones Newswires
0826 GMT [Dow Jones] The possibility of a combined Leach and Goodlatte bill on internet gambling getting through both the House of Representatives and the Senate during the current Congress is very slim, says an analyst. Reckons both Leach's and Goodlatte's bill will be combined with the earliest likely House of Representatives vote taking place July 10. Sees the bill passing through the House, a move which is expected by investors. But with only around 7-8 weeks left of Congress after that the bill is unlikely to be able to progress given the tight end of Congress legislation timetable in the Senate. PartyGaming (PRTY.LN) trades -0.5% at 107.5p, 888 (888.LN) unchanged at 208p. (DWE)
Talking heads say anything to capture a headline so they can gloat if they called it correctly ........
It's not over until the fat lady sings, and to anyone who has any interest in this bill I suggest you email, call your congress persons or take whatever slop they decide to dish out when special interests finish with them.
Online lotteries are allowed in the latest bill, largely at the behest of states that increasingly rely on lotteries to augment tax revenues.
From CBS news.
ez
However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states.
Taken from the article at the beginning of this thread
ez
i might be wrong.correct me if i am.they are talking about state lotteries.however online lotteries that you bet on that are offshore where you bet on all states will be outlawed.
When asked one such site replied" we do not run a lotto. We allow you to wager on what the number will be in the state run lotto."
ez
When asked one such site replied" we do not run a lotto. We allow you to wager on what the number will be in the state run lotto."
ez
i wish we could get away with it but they will make sure no matter what that they are all shut down.i hope it doesn't happen......
They shut down drugs, didn't they?
ez
When did these big whigs worry about us poor working class people loosing our life savings,I don't think they worried to much when Enron and it's big shots really took all of it's employees life savings, then find Ken Lay Guilty and he conventiely died before he could be sentenced or did he,makes you wonder don't it,could work like the witness protection program I guess.
LOTTOMIKE,
When people like YOU start thinking of Americans as "US" instead of as "we" and "them", this country might become a better place.
Good to hear that. I was afraid that the government might have threatened to shut you down, too.
The government we have now is worse than anything the British "oppressed" us with in 1776. We currently pay 40% of our income to state, local and federal entities. We can't afford gasoline, we can't afford food for our children and we are under constant scrutiny by the rising security state. If the American people don't stand up and condemn this current regime, we should apologize to King George III. He just imposed a small tax on tea to help defray the cost of fighting the French in the French and Indian War! Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Madison and Adams are spinning in their graves!!!
Orangeman
AMEN Brother Orangeman!!
Getting away from ragging on our genious founding fathers, and back to the discussion at hand, here a link to the interesting article Emily mentioned: http://www.nydailynews.com/07-11-2006/business/story/434155p-365775c.html
I think this is very interesting....in my soul, I don't think it will pass. Not to mention the ISPs stand to lose a lot of money from unhappy customers. Which will be an opportunity for an offshore ISP to start, make billions from those who wish to have freedom in their Internet browsing.
Everyone who keeps saying that lotteries and horse racing are allowed under the bill, STOP SAYING THAT. Lotteries and horse racing are NOT included in the bill.
Re-read the article at the beginning of this thread. It says:
By continuing to say that lotteries are exempted, you are giving false hope to people.
From AOL poll today;congress should see this and follow the will of the people
How should Congress respond to Internet gambling?
I find it very interesting that people who have never gambled online still think that it's okay...just by seeing the numbers.
That is another reason I think that it will be defeated, Todd...the horse racing and lottery lobby don't want this to be outlawed.
I was asked through private messaging about what happens next in the life of this bill. I'm going to answer here so everyone can benefit. For any questions that could benefit many people, I would prefer those questions to be posted in the forums, rather than thru PM.
At this point, the Senate will draft their own version of the bill, then they will debate it, and then vote on it. If it passes, then representatives from the House and the Senate will meet and resolve any differences in the bills. Then it goes to the President to sign. The vast majority of bills get signed if they make it that far (President Bush has not issued a single veto so far).
Ways that the process can fail:
The off-topic posts were removed from this thread. Those are better to post in a blog.
Thanks Todd
Surely one of those 3 will occur that you mention Todd...or at least I will keep my fingers crossed anyway.
And we're going to think that ol' W doesn't like putting a few greenbacks on the Longhorns? HAHA
Everyone who keeps saying that lotteries and horse racing are allowed under the bill, STOP SAYING THAT. Lotteries and horse racing are NOT included in the bill.
Re-read the article at the beginning of this thread. It says:
By continuing to say that lotteries are exempted, you are giving false hope to people.
"They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries."
I know that most reporters would be lucky to get a C in 6th grade English class, but I think that sentence is pretty clear, and it's accurate. The bill has exemptions for horse racing and state lotteries. There was an amendment to remove those exemptions, and the amendment was defeated.
Personally, I don't mind seeing the government regulate online gambling and taxing it in some way. That would assure it would continue. They tax cigarettes and booze. These "vices" continue just fine because the government needs the revenue.
If it were regulated, your ISP charges, home computer, lottery software, etc, would become tax write-offs. You could buy a new computer every year and write it off as a business expense. Heck, you could probably deduct some off your house payment for a home office if you made enough profit.
Lottery software companies would make a mint and the technology would flourish. With more and more jobs being shipped overseas, regulating and taxing off shore gambling could become a legal source of income for thousands of unemployed people.
Just trying to look on the bright side . . .
Orangeman
O'man
I like what you say there...I've been looking for a way to write off all those pesky expenses :)
This is a great topic. I hope Internet gambling goes away for good.
Huh?
LOTTOMIKE,
When people like YOU start thinking of Americans as "US" instead of as "we" and "them", this country might become a better place.
EXPLAIN?
This is a great topic. I hope Internet gambling goes away for good.
i'm lost....why would you hope this?
Everyone who keeps saying that lotteries and horse racing are allowed under the bill, STOP SAYING THAT. Lotteries and horse racing are NOT included in the bill.
Re-read the article at the beginning of this thread. It says:
By continuing to say that lotteries are exempted, you are giving false hope to people.
"They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries."
I know that most reporters would be lucky to get a C in 6th grade English class, but I think that sentence is pretty clear, and it's accurate. The bill has exemptions for horse racing and state lotteries. There was an amendment to remove those exemptions, and the amendment was defeated.
This is what i'm reading from the original story...
"However, the lottery exemption wasn't in the bill back in 2000. If it had been, Abramoff's client probably would have backed the bill. Online lotteries are exempted this time around at the behest of states."
i'm not going to put my political views here any more.i think it distracts from the lottery topic at hand.about what i posted earlier you have to remember where i'm from and where i was raised.memphis,tennessee doesn't exactly have a good history of race relations.martin luther king was assassinated here in 1968.the world may have changed in other places but here things remain very much frosty.so before you judge me take into account what i've been through and where i am.this is one of the poorest regions in the nation.while you might have good harmony where you are that might not exactly be the case where i'm located.and for the record i'm not racist and a i have friends of all races.thank you for letting me clear this up...........
"Reps. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., and Jim Leach, R-Iowa sponsored the bill. They successfully beat back an amendment to strip out exemptions in the legislation for the horse racing industry and state lotteries."
beat back = blocked? eliminated?
strip out = remove?
exemptions = allowing of?
it would read "successfully eliminated an amendment to remove the allowing of horse racing/lotteries." Meaning, the legislation HAS exemptions for horse racing/lottery which the Reps. PROTECTED... IF I am reading this correctly.
QUESTION OF THE DAY: What about PayPal?????? I am sure that online casinos can find some alternate method of keeping accounts.. I mean it's a pain-in-the-neck to send a check to an online casino to fund one's account but that's NOT being outlawed so far.. ONLY credit card payments right?
ELIMINATE ALL COMPUTERIZED CASINOS????
I've been wondering all afternoon who is the lobbying interest behind H.R.4411.
Clark Howard is a radio and tv consumer advocate who normally knows who or what issue is behind various legislation.
He is not in favor of any kind of gambling, but please read past his opinion to who is the lobbying interest behind the push to stop it.
For those who've said follow the money trail, you are indeed correct.
Credit card companies are apparently losing $$$$$$$ so are the lobbying interest behind the ban.
___________________________
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it
2-the casinos in vegas are losing action
3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
My sincere apologies to all for my insistence that lotteries and horse racing were excluded. I simply read the sentence incorrectly, and really screwed it up. I have taken out the bullet point in the beginning of the story that wrongly stated that lotteries were not included.
Note that the bill is still VERY bad for people who like to play the lottery, because it tries to block access to state lottery alternatives online.
Here is a link to a fantasic site that offers everything you'd want to know about the bill:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4411
Thanks Todd!
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it
2-the casinos in vegas are losing action
3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
Mike, since the banking industry seems to be the steam roller behind this bill then it doesn't look good for online gamblers.
Banking industry is no doubt the lobby behind recent bankruptcy law changes, also recent credit card repayment tightening so this legislation looks like the third big wheel on the steam roller. All makes sense to me.
However, one question is whether debit cards fall under the same category as credit cards, also do bank drafts fall under the category of wire transfers? Don't have a clue on either.
konane
I would imagine debit cards will fall within that frame...aren't they somehow linked to the VISA/MC system?
If I understand correctly, most banks will not allow their credit cards to fishy sites in their eyes anyway, such as online gambling, porn, etc. So I kind of wonder why they are pushing for this. I would almost say that it's the land-based casino lobby, who probably is pushing for a cut in the action.
I think at least part of this was caused by some of the shyster operators who opened up offshore sports books early on in the days of the internet, set themselves up to take credit cards, and then never paid a winning bet and closed up shop.
There was also a 60 Minutes report on a (read one) poker site, owned by an American in the Bahamas, that's taking oin $12,000,000 a year.
Times how many offshore gambling sites and that = a lot of lost taxes.
When the river boat casinos came to St Louis, bankruptcies went up 400% - and that's with "brick and mortar" casinos. So it's not too hard to fathom that some people can get themselves in way to deep sitting home and playing online.
ct
I saw that report on CBS. That is one of the "smaller" books as well. Imagine what the Big Guys like PartyPoker are pulling in a year?
What's next ?
Those who have fought and died for our right to have freedoms are becoming more and more irrelevant.
DD
So true! We have choice. We were created as creatures with a choice. I choose to NOT vote for the legislators who oppose my opinions.
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it
2-the casinos in vegas are losing action
3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
Mike, since the banking industry seems to be the steam roller behind this bill then it doesn't look good for online gamblers.
Banking industry is no doubt the lobby behind recent bankruptcy law changes, also recent credit card repayment tightening so this legislation looks like the third big wheel on the steam roller. All makes sense to me.
However, one question is whether debit cards fall under the same category as credit cards, also do bank drafts fall under the category of wire transfers? Don't have a clue on either.
i read that too.seems like all these forces together might give this bill enough of a push to pass.i'm going to be honest i think the whole party is over.it was fun while it lasted.i made nearly 5 grand since todd introduced betslips here in february so its gonna hurt pretty bad
the bottom line in all of this is a couple things.....
1-the government is greedy and mad because they can't tax it
2-the casinos in vegas are losing action
3-they decide to join together to stamp it out
Mike, since the banking industry seems to be the steam roller behind this bill then it doesn't look good for online gamblers.
Banking industry is no doubt the lobby behind recent bankruptcy law changes, also recent credit card repayment tightening so this legislation looks like the third big wheel on the steam roller. All makes sense to me.
However, one question is whether debit cards fall under the same category as credit cards, also do bank drafts fall under the category of wire transfers? Don't have a clue on either.
i read that too.seems like all these forces together might give this bill enough of a push to pass.i'm going to be honest i think the whole party is over.it was fun while it lasted.i made nearly 5 grand since todd introduced betslips here in february so its gonna hurt pretty bad
I hate to hear that...
What's next ?
Those who have fought and died for our right to have freedoms are becoming more and more irrelevant.
DD
So true! We have choice. We were created as creatures with a choice. I choose to NOT vote for the legislators who oppose my opinions.
You nailed it!!
Does this mean that we will no longer be able to play at betslips.com?
U.S. House passes Internet gambling ban
By UPI Staff
United Press International
July 13, 2006
WASHINGTON (UPI) -- The U.S. House has overwhelmingly backed a bill to ban most forms of Internet gambling and require banks to block payments to offshore* Web sites.
UPI article, continues here:
http://www.gopusa.com/news/2006/july/0713_gambling_ban.shtml
*Notice that word again, offshore...
I really think that is a major cause of all this.
Here is a link to a fantasic site that offers everything you'd want to know about the bill:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4411
Official Title: To prevent the use of certain payment instruments, credit cards, and fund transfers for unlawful Internet gambling, and for other purposes."
Somewhere in the bill, I'm sure, they give the definition of "unlawful Internet gambling" and the "other purposes" (possibly terrorist related?). I personally don't think something like betslips.com qualifies as "unlawful".
I have been doing some hard thinking on the whys and wherefores of this issue. Hear me out on this.
The credit card companies are already scared pea green over rising balances. The reason why families are coping with high gasoline prices is the fact that many are putting their gas on Visa/Mastercard and NOT paying off their charges.
Online gambling is an extension of this fear. Gambling increases during hard times as families struggle to make ends meet. Many gamble on their credit cards, run up the balances and NEVER pay them off. Once again, the pea green factor comes into play.
Playing on your credit card is pretty dumb, anyway. That really needs to stop. You really shouldn't play on credit and I agree with this part of the bill.
The real issue is blocking access to Internet sites. The Net is the most significant advance in human communication since movable type and it would be a shame to mess it up over online gambling. Like the camel with it's nose under the tent, pretty soon the camel is under your bed.
We should write our Senators and let them know how we feel and email the ISPs to let them know they will lose business if they kow tow to federal legislation that would block access to gambling sites.
The wise thing would be to legalize and regulate online gambling of all types, ban credit card use and collect any taxes.
Everyone wins if we follow this approach. "The children" are protected, "the morons" cannot run up their credit cards on a whim and the government makes millions on gambling profits. The credit card companies can change from pea green to dark green again, the church groups have been thrown their sop and the pigs in Congress have more pork to pass around.
Most importantly, we have the option to play online or not.
It is a choice issue more than anything else. I don't smoke, but I don't want to ban smoking. I don't drink, but I don't want to ban drinking. I play a little online, though. Everyone is entitled to at least one vice.
Orangeman
i agree orangeman as a former smoker,former drinker and former druggie(its been seven years on any of these vices for me) i have one vice and that is a little gambling.i guess i'll chew gum or something when its banned,lol.
in all seriousness i would rather them regulate it and tax it than ban it.
Does this mean that we will no longer be able to play at betslips.com?
no more gambling at betslips,the quarter store or anywhere.it'll be done.all she wrote.......
orangeman,
your post was excellent, just too bad legislators don't think that way.
On issues like this the masses have to com;y with "extremes", either wide open online gambling, or none.
I'll preface this post by saying that I have no respect for the New York times ongoing publishing of classified information which has compromised national security. I hope they are charged and prosecuted to the fullest extent the law provides.
That being said here is a paragraph from one of their articles concerning lobbying groups pushing to get the internet gambling ban enacted. Logic prevails that they're at least partially correct although I read on a couple of conservative discussion sites that they felt our rights to choose were being removed and were pretty much against the legislation.
_______
........"Intensive lobbying has surrounded various versions of the bills for years, with newcomers like celebrity poker players joining the fray this time around. Americans are now estimated to spend nearly $6 billion of the $12 billion bet worldwide on Internet games and sports. A broad coalition of the major sports leagues, banking institutions, law enforcement, family values coalitions and religious groups of all denominations rallied on behalf of an online gambling ban.".............
The passage of a bill on the House floor by a 317 to 93 vote banning online gambling has failed to hurt gambling company shares. In fact, it seems to have done quite the opposite.
Both Sportingbet and PartyGaming's shares rose after analysts said the latest attempt to ban internet casinos would fail despite its overwhelming support by the House.
The Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act was co-sponsored by Republican congressman Bob Goodlatte, who has called online gaming a "scourge on our society". It was passed by 317 votes to 93.
And while Arizona Republican Senator Jon Kyl is an adamant supporter of anti-online gambling legislation, the Senate is yet to make this a priority and its passage on the Senate floor appears unlikely at this time. The Arizona Senator has said he will aggressively pursuit it (an online gambling ban) nonetheless.
The Senate is not likely to find enough time to debate the bill prior to its yearly recess, which would then mean another bill would have to be drafted for next year and for a seventh consecutive year (excluding 2005 where there was no proposed legislation), attempts to stymie online gambling would once more fail.
also found this........
Gamblers' fears might be unwarranted
Internet gamblers worried about losing their hobby may take comfort from this golden nugget of information.
Those who advise Internet gambling investors don't seem worried at all.
London-based financial analysts see Tuesday's vote by the U.S. House of Representatives to ban Internet gambling as much ado about nothing, according to Reuters.
That's because analysts don't expect the U.S. Senate to act on the bill in time for it to become law, thus rendering the House's vote moot. Backing up their beliefs are reports in the U.S. that Senate leadership has not made the gambling bill a top priority.
Such news may ease the fears of gamblers poised to yank money from their online accounts in reaction to the House vote.
Internet gamblers wager real money online by opening an account with a gambling Web site. They often use credit cards to fund the accounts, but also can use other methods such as cashier's checks and online services such as blank.
Once an account is established, a gambler's wins and losses are added and subtracted from that account. Gamblers can withdraw money from their account at any time, regaining their funds via a check or by having the money returned to their credit card or blank account.
Analysts are paying attention across the Atlantic because companies that run some high-profile online gambling sites are traded on the London Stock Exchange.
The bill passed by the House on Tuesday would forbid credit cards and other forms of payment from being used to settle online wagers.
But Nick Jones, a 21-year-old medic at Battle Creek Health System and an avid online poker player, said he'd be surprised if the bill became law.
"It seems unlikely to me that it would happen - that they would shut down a multibillion dollar industry that way," Jones said Tuesday evening at Arcadia Brewing Co. in downtown Battle Creek,Michigan.
And those London analysts agree with Jones.
"Only about seven or eight weeks of Congress will be left for the merged House bill to negotiate the various Senate committees," Richard Carter of Numis Securities said in a Tuesday Reuters article. "In our view this is not enough time for the bill to progress, given the tight end-of-Congress legislation timetable in the Senate."
In fact, according to Reuters, analysts believe that news of the House's vote in favor of the ban will provide enough weakness in online gaming stocks to offer short-term investment opportunities.
Among the online gambling stocks being targeted are PartyGaming, which runs the popular PartyPoker site, and Sportingbet, which is affiliated with Paradise Poker, both of which are traded in London.
"We continue to believe that full passage into law is very unlikely, and would look to buy PartyGaming and Sportingbet on any weakness," Reuters quoted Morgan Stanley as saying in its Tuesday article.
The Arizona Senator Jon Kyl has said he will aggressively pursuit it (an online gambling ban) nonetheless....
this would be one thing to keep a close eye on though.
not trying to give anyone false hope here.just trying to list all the pros and cons i can on the subject so we can view them accordingly........
I agree with Orangeman. The problem fueling this bill is not gambling itself but due to the credit card companies. Even porn sites are being restricted to not using the major credit card companies. Morality aside, it is the enormous unpaid debt being created due to cards illegally used through identity theft, minors illegally using parents' card, and finally the people with addictive personalities who unfortunately become "gamblers". This last item is what the politicians are fronting but not the true reason.
The solution is quite simple. The porn sites use paypal which can be paid by check or electronic funds transfer. So money is physically there. The government can authorize and/or create a site like paypal to that does the same which would automatically send the IRS the necessary tax information on winnings. Since withdrawals (losses) and winnings would be listed like a bank statement, the hassle of tax deductions on winnings would also be solved and your losses most importantly would be shown also (since losses tend to be hard to prove).
the only thing to do now is sit back and wait on the outcome.i feel like i'm watching an execution of a loved one,lol.maybe it will get pardoned in the last minutes and gain its life back.......
Next they will take away our pinball machines.
"In the summer of 1941, New York Mayor Fiorello La Guardia, affectionately known as 'the Little Flower' to his constituents, took leave from his normal duties to declare all-out war on an evil that threatened his city. Before an assembled crush of photographers and reporters, La Guardia spoke for a few moments and then picked up a sledgehammer. His eyes popping nearly out of his head, he flexed his shoulders, hoisted the sledgehammer into the air, and brought it crashing down on the polished glass face of the enemy: a shiny, brand- new pinball machine. As strange as the mayor's behavior might seem today, in 1941 a war against pinball was no laughing matter. Pinball machines were devices for gambling. New York would remain pinball-free for 35 years.
that was a cool story.i never knew they were banned though.i bet organized crime made tons of money on it.........
U.S. House Votes to Ban Internet Gambling
also found this story...
Internet Gaming Bill Faces Uncertain Future
BUSINESS UP ON NEWS OF ONLINE GAMBLING BAN
Not what the US legislators would expect to see
Fears that the US House of Representatives vote to ban online gambling would impact on share prices were clearly exaggerated, as London share prices on gambling companies actually improved.
Shares in the PartyPoker giant – the world’s biggest online poker company - lifted more than 5 percent as investors in London gambled on a less enthusiastic response to the Bill when it reaches the Senate.
Smaller operators also benefited, with shares in Sportingbet up 4 percent and Empire Online 1 percent higher, although 888 Holdings fell half a penny.
ABN Amro analyst Michael Pacitti said support for online gaming stocks came amid doubts that the Bill will get through the Senate.
“Congress approved the Bill to prohibit online gaming,” he said. “This was expected. The Bill must now go to the Senate where we believe there will be greater opposition.”
The Internet Gambling Prohibition Act is sponsored by Republicans Bob Goodlatte, of Virginia, and Jim Leach, of Iowa, who managed to get similar Bills through Congress in 2002 and 2003 but failed to win the support of the Senate.
“We doubt that this most recent attempt will have greater success,” said Pacitti.
“What changes in practice following the passage of this Bill in the lower house? Nothing.
“PartyGaming and others can continue to operate as they currently do.”
Analysts at Dresdner Kleinwort added that there may not be time for the Bill to gain Senate backing with just 15 business days to the summer recess and 32 days before the mid-term elections in November. Dresdner said: “The probability of the Bill passing Senate has not gone up.”
Online gaming shares have suffered in recent months by uncertainty caused by the threat of the ban under the Bill, with PartyGaming shares slumping 6 percent since the Bill was introduced.
Next they will take away our pinball machines.
"In the summer of 1941, New York Mayor Fiorello La Guardia, affectionately known as 'the Little Flower' to his constituents, took leave from his normal duties to declare all-out war on an evil that threatened his city. Before an assembled crush of photographers and reporters, La Guardia spoke for a few moments and then picked up a sledgehammer. His eyes popping nearly out of his head, he flexed his shoulders, hoisted the sledgehammer into the air, and brought it crashing down on the polished glass face of the enemy: a shiny, brand- new pinball machine. As strange as the mayor's behavior might seem today, in 1941 a war against pinball was no laughing matter. Pinball machines were devices for gambling. New York would remain pinball-free for 35 years.
Tinker,
Thanks for that historical background. A great example of ridiculous "protection" for our own good.
The best protection for our own good would be to make it available to the voters to instantaneously impeach our "protectors". Every Monday there should be an impeachment election.