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Texas Lottery confirms that Quick Picks are not generated by "central computer"

Topic closed. 44 replies. Last post 8 years ago by Think.

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Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
Indiana
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Posted: November 25, 2008, 2:53 pm - IP Logged

A case where a drawing has been EXPLICITLY rigged is not very likely to happen. I remember when the Hoosier Lotto got really high last year people kept saying "The Hoosier Lottery makes it keep rolling over" and "The Hoosier Lottery rigs their drawings to pay out less". I'm going to say the same thing now as I did then; in order for anyone to guarantee either of those would happen, the computer used for the drawing would need to be PURPOSELY programmed to access a list of all the combinations already sold. Think about it: the computer generating the numbers accessing a list of combinations already sold. Not only that, but a list that isn't even stored on that same computer. It's just so unlikely to happen.

Gonna win.Big Smile

    rcbbuckeye's avatar - Lottery-043.jpg
    Texas
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    Posted: November 25, 2008, 2:58 pm - IP Logged

    The lottery machines are most certainly programmable.  If they weren't .... well, then they would not exist, because as I mentioned in the other thread, they are computers themselves.

    See, the problem I have with this scenario is that your supposition is exactly why the Texas Lottery runs reports on the distribution of numbers generated as Quick Picks.

    On one hand you're saying that the existence of such reports are bad, but on the other hand you're saying that you're concerned about the RNGs at the lottery terminals being manipulated.

    Which story is it?

    Do you want nothing monitored, and leave open the possibility of manipulation, or do you want the tickets monitored in order to ensure that the RNGs are properly creating random numbers with an even statistical distribution?

    Note that I have not even mentioned that all of these theories about the ticket machines really don't amount to much, unless the drawings themselves are rigged.  After all, if the drawings are not rigged, how would the lottery know which random numbers to avoid?  to me, it just doesn't make sense from any perspective.

    And if you think the RNG is manipulated to avoid certain combinations, then wouldn't a report analyzing the generated Quick Picks allay that fear?

    I can't speak about other states, but I do believe that Texas is one of the most open states when it comes to the lottery. The website has tons of info on it, as well as transcripts from the monthly meetings. Do they have occasional problems? Sure. Name me any government agency that doesn't.

    The fact of the matter is that the lottery (at least in TX) is  in existence to make money for  public education, and they make that pretty clear.  I just can't see  the sense  in lotteries rigging  things because...... look at the odds.  They do not have to rig anything, the astonomical odds make it hard enough to win without risking blowing it all over doing something stupid like that.

    I was reading the transcripts a while back, and the commissioners were a little dismayed that the TX Lotto hasn't been able to reach higher jackpots because someone keeps hitting. It hasn't been over 30 mil this year. Last year it got to 75 mil. They don't want lower payouts, they want big jackpots because as the jackpot grows more peaple play. It's just common sense.

      LottoL's avatar - techno eye.jpg
      Texas
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      February 24, 2006
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      Posted: November 25, 2008, 7:21 pm - IP Logged

      The lottery machines are most certainly programmable.  If they weren't .... well, then they would not exist, because as I mentioned in the other thread, they are computers themselves.

      See, the problem I have with this scenario is that your supposition is exactly why the Texas Lottery runs reports on the distribution of numbers generated as Quick Picks.

      On one hand you're saying that the existence of such reports are bad, but on the other hand you're saying that you're concerned about the RNGs at the lottery terminals being manipulated.

      Which story is it?

      Do you want nothing monitored, and leave open the possibility of manipulation, or do you want the tickets monitored in order to ensure that the RNGs are properly creating random numbers with an even statistical distribution?

      Note that I have not even mentioned that all of these theories about the ticket machines really don't amount to much, unless the drawings themselves are rigged.  After all, if the drawings are not rigged, how would the lottery know which random numbers to avoid?  to me, it just doesn't make sense from any perspective.

      And if you think the RNG is manipulated to avoid certain combinations, then wouldn't a report analyzing the generated Quick Picks allay that fear?

      I'm not saying that the drawings are rigged, all I'm
      saying is that the outcome (or parts of the outcome)
      can possibly be known/changed before the drawing
      occurrs, which is the ultimate random generator.

      I know people will say thats a rigged draw, but I don't
      think so.

      To give an example of my thinking, say you picked the
      1 22 52 53 56-45 in the last MM draw.  Would those
      same numbers have been selected had you picked them? 
      My guess would be probably not.  The selected numbers
      would probably have changed.  Why?  Possibly because
      the game was programmed not to produce a winner.
      Kind of like a Keno game, it seems that as long as you
      don't bet, you can select numbers that come up; but the
      second you bet, something has changed. 

      Anyway,

      Good Luck to all!

      LottoL - http://www.geocities.com/lottotx/

        Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
        Indiana
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        Posted: November 26, 2008, 3:15 am - IP Logged

        I'm not saying that the drawings are rigged, all I'm
        saying is that the outcome (or parts of the outcome)
        can possibly be known/changed before the drawing
        occurrs, which is the ultimate random generator.

        I know people will say thats a rigged draw, but I don't
        think so.

        To give an example of my thinking, say you picked the
        1 22 52 53 56-45 in the last MM draw.  Would those
        same numbers have been selected had you picked them? 
        My guess would be probably not.  The selected numbers
        would probably have changed.  Why?  Possibly because
        the game was programmed not to produce a winner.
        Kind of like a Keno game, it seems that as long as you
        don't bet, you can select numbers that come up; but the
        second you bet, something has changed. 

        Anyway,

        Good Luck to all!

        LottoL - http://www.geocities.com/lottotx/

        If you pick some numbers, then decide not to play them, and they come out the winning numbers, then you didn't win because you didn't play. Had you played them, you would have won. It's as simple as that.

        Gonna win.Big Smile

          LottoL's avatar - techno eye.jpg
          Texas
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          February 24, 2006
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          Posted: November 26, 2008, 3:44 am - IP Logged

          If you pick some numbers, then decide not to play them, and they come out the winning numbers, then you didn't win because you didn't play. Had you played them, you would have won. It's as simple as that.

          I guess that's one way of looking at it.  But I don't think it's as simple as that.

          Here's Why.

          Since Texas joined MM (if I added correctly), there have been 44 jackpot winners:

          2008 - 12 (partial year)
          2007 - 12
          2006 - 15
          2005 - 05 (partial year)

          If the system is programmed to allow say 12 - 15 jackpots a year, then thats all that will be won
          and the lottery software on the central computing system may probably be programmed to
          control that scenario.

          My Example:  There was no winner for tonight's draw.  What I am saying is, if you picked
          2 - 11 - 22 - 51 - 52 mb 46 prior to the drawing, the selection of winning numbers would/could
          most likely change.  At least that's my opinion. 

          Best of Luck!

            Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
            Chief Bottle Washer
            New Jersey
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            Posted: November 26, 2008, 9:07 am - IP Logged

            I'm not saying that the drawings are rigged, all I'm
            saying is that the outcome (or parts of the outcome)
            can possibly be known/changed before the drawing
            occurrs, which is the ultimate random generator.

            I know people will say thats a rigged draw, but I don't
            think so.

            To give an example of my thinking, say you picked the
            1 22 52 53 56-45 in the last MM draw.  Would those
            same numbers have been selected had you picked them? 
            My guess would be probably not.  The selected numbers
            would probably have changed.  Why?  Possibly because
            the game was programmed not to produce a winner.
            Kind of like a Keno game, it seems that as long as you
            don't bet, you can select numbers that come up; but the
            second you bet, something has changed. 

            Anyway,

            Good Luck to all!

            LottoL - http://www.geocities.com/lottotx/

            The problem I am having with your statements is that you are being vague about where you believe there is manipulation.

            When we are talking about "rigging a drawing", that specifically refers to altering the lottery drawing machine -- or the balls that get drawn from it -- in order to make certain numbers come out.

            Now, if you are saying that Texas is controlling the outcome, that is the only way I know to do that, because if the drawing in NOT rigged -- it is entirely random -- then ANY COMBINATION has an equal chance of winning.  How the heck would the Texas Lottery know which combinations to "avoid".

            The combination 1-2-3-4-5-6 has exactly the same chance of coming out as 6-13-22-35-39-46.

            When you say "the game was programmed not to produce a winner", what exactly are you referring to?  The Mega Millions drawing (which is NOT run by the Texas Lottery, BTW) is a ball drawing, so it is not programmed in any sense.

            The tickets for Mega Millions are sold by 12 different states, each with their own independent back-office system that collects the ticket numbers generated by hundreds of thousands of independent lottery terminals made by a few different manufacturers (with incompattible program code).

            The conspiracy to ensure that certain Mega Millions combinations are not being sold among all of those lottery terminals would have to involve corruption and collusion at 12 different state lotteries, and be a monumental technical feat involving the simultaneous programming of hundreds of thousands of lottery terminals, bypassing 12 different audit systems (one for each state) to download new instructions to all of those terminals.

            In the twelve years that the game has been around (1,202 drawings so far), all of that cloak and dagger stuff would have to remain secret for the manipulation to continue week after week.

            And it's all being done for what?  So that certain combinations are not being sold?  So that the lottery control control WHERE certain combinations are being sold?

            Again, how does that help the lottery manipulate the drawings at all?  With a random drawing, it doesn't matter what combination is sold where, because every single combination -- even the ones that do not fit into historical patterns -- have a precisely equal chance of being drawn.

            If you're saying that the drawings themselves are NOT random then that's a different story, and can be debated.  I would be genuinely interested in hearing how they would manipulate the Mega Millions drawing (rubber balls, gravity drawing).

             

            Check the State Lottery Report Card
            What grade did your lottery earn?

             

            Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
            Help eliminate computerized drawings!

              LottoL's avatar - techno eye.jpg
              Texas
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              February 24, 2006
              705 Posts
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              Posted: November 26, 2008, 9:58 am - IP Logged

              The problem I am having with your statements is that you are being vague about where you believe there is manipulation.

              When we are talking about "rigging a drawing", that specifically refers to altering the lottery drawing machine -- or the balls that get drawn from it -- in order to make certain numbers come out.

              Now, if you are saying that Texas is controlling the outcome, that is the only way I know to do that, because if the drawing in NOT rigged -- it is entirely random -- then ANY COMBINATION has an equal chance of winning.  How the heck would the Texas Lottery know which combinations to "avoid".

              The combination 1-2-3-4-5-6 has exactly the same chance of coming out as 6-13-22-35-39-46.

              When you say "the game was programmed not to produce a winner", what exactly are you referring to?  The Mega Millions drawing (which is NOT run by the Texas Lottery, BTW) is a ball drawing, so it is not programmed in any sense.

              The tickets for Mega Millions are sold by 12 different states, each with their own independent back-office system that collects the ticket numbers generated by hundreds of thousands of independent lottery terminals made by a few different manufacturers (with incompattible program code).

              The conspiracy to ensure that certain Mega Millions combinations are not being sold among all of those lottery terminals would have to involve corruption and collusion at 12 different state lotteries, and be a monumental technical feat involving the simultaneous programming of hundreds of thousands of lottery terminals, bypassing 12 different audit systems (one for each state) to download new instructions to all of those terminals.

              In the twelve years that the game has been around (1,202 drawings so far), all of that cloak and dagger stuff would have to remain secret for the manipulation to continue week after week.

              And it's all being done for what?  So that certain combinations are not being sold?  So that the lottery control control WHERE certain combinations are being sold?

              Again, how does that help the lottery manipulate the drawings at all?  With a random drawing, it doesn't matter what combination is sold where, because every single combination -- even the ones that do not fit into historical patterns -- have a precisely equal chance of being drawn.

              If you're saying that the drawings themselves are NOT random then that's a different story, and can be debated.  I would be genuinely interested in hearing how they would manipulate the Mega Millions drawing (rubber balls, gravity drawing).

              I think I'm going to bail out of this discusion.

              -> BTW, I never did suggest that MM was run by the Texas Lottery.

              Best Of Luck,

              LottoL

                psykomo's avatar - animal shark.jpg

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                Posted: November 28, 2008, 8:47 pm - IP Logged

                I think I'm going to bail out of this discusion.

                -> BTW, I never did suggest that MM was run by the Texas Lottery.

                Best Of Luck,

                LottoL

                LottoL:

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                  Dead_Aim's avatar - canstock2002989

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                  Posted: November 28, 2008, 10:28 pm - IP Logged

                  I think I understand what LottoL is saying but it would be difficult with the ball drawn games.

                  Forget the RNG tickets being printed, they don't have to be manipulated in any way, but once they are purchased the info is sent to the central computer saying this combo was purchased in this place at this time. The lottery uses this for security reasons to protect themselves from someone making a fake ticket or saying they lost their ticket. The lottery can simply ask when did you buy the ticket, where did you buy the ticket, and at approximately what time? Then they can say sorry, that info is incorrect, it was on this date, at this store, at this time. Ok, so it has a legitimate purpose, but...

                  with the computer drawn games there is nothing to say within the 15 minute terminal shutdown and the actual drawing the central computer doesn't analyzes all the tickets bought for that particular drawing and produce a combo that was not purchased at all or has one of the lowest payouts available to be drawn.

                  As I said earlier, it would be difficult to do this with ball drawn games but you can make a computer pop up any combo you want at any time, no questions asked.

                  As far as RNG quickpicks, if you buy more than 1 get them on separate tickets. You will get more of a variety than buying them all on the same ticket. I bought 5 dollars on a jackpot game the other day and I was in a hurry so I got them all on one ticket. Of the 5 tickets I purchased 3 lines had a MB of 13 and the other 2 lines had a MB of 10. Tickets like that happen often when purchased on the same ticket. 

                  Don't Chase... Compare and Narrow

                  The Cheaper the Cost the Higher the Profit

                  Many Winners to You.

                  D_A

                    Guru101's avatar - rw6jhh
                    Indiana
                    United States
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                    January 7, 2007
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                    Posted: November 28, 2008, 11:42 pm - IP Logged

                    I think I understand what LottoL is saying but it would be difficult with the ball drawn games.

                    Forget the RNG tickets being printed, they don't have to be manipulated in any way, but once they are purchased the info is sent to the central computer saying this combo was purchased in this place at this time. The lottery uses this for security reasons to protect themselves from someone making a fake ticket or saying they lost their ticket. The lottery can simply ask when did you buy the ticket, where did you buy the ticket, and at approximately what time? Then they can say sorry, that info is incorrect, it was on this date, at this store, at this time. Ok, so it has a legitimate purpose, but...

                    with the computer drawn games there is nothing to say within the 15 minute terminal shutdown and the actual drawing the central computer doesn't analyzes all the tickets bought for that particular drawing and produce a combo that was not purchased at all or has one of the lowest payouts available to be drawn.

                    As I said earlier, it would be difficult to do this with ball drawn games but you can make a computer pop up any combo you want at any time, no questions asked.

                    As far as RNG quickpicks, if you buy more than 1 get them on separate tickets. You will get more of a variety than buying them all on the same ticket. I bought 5 dollars on a jackpot game the other day and I was in a hurry so I got them all on one ticket. Of the 5 tickets I purchased 3 lines had a MB of 13 and the other 2 lines had a MB of 10. Tickets like that happen often when purchased on the same ticket. 

                    with the computer drawngames there is nothing to say within the 15 minute terminal shutdownand the actual drawing the central computer doesn't analyzes all thetickets bought for that particular drawing and produce a combo that wasnot purchased at all or has one of the lowest payouts available to bedrawn.


                    The central computer and the draw computer are not the same machine. The draw computer cannot analyze what has been sold.

                    Gonna win.Big Smile

                      Dead_Aim's avatar - canstock2002989

                      United States
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                      Posted: November 28, 2008, 11:54 pm - IP Logged

                      with the computer drawngames there is nothing to say within the 15 minute terminal shutdownand the actual drawing the central computer doesn't analyzes all thetickets bought for that particular drawing and produce a combo that wasnot purchased at all or has one of the lowest payouts available to bedrawn.


                      The central computer and the draw computer are not the same machine. The draw computer cannot analyze what has been sold.

                      I realize that, but does the drawing computer have any wireless abilities or flash drive access?  Do we know the answers to that?

                      Are the two computers even in the same building? Does anyone know the answer to that one? These are things to consider. Ponder

                      Don't Chase... Compare and Narrow

                      The Cheaper the Cost the Higher the Profit

                      Many Winners to You.

                      D_A

                        pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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                        Posted: December 1, 2008, 12:06 am - IP Logged

                        so they confirmed each terminal has a separate rng.

                        but do they control what seeds are allowed to be used to began their so called random rng routine?

                        every night the terminal machines go down between certain hours do they up date there firmware?

                        I dont believe the quick pick terminal uses a true random generator(binary). Maybe they can control initial seed via limits.

                          Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                          Chief Bottle Washer
                          New Jersey
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                          Posted: December 1, 2008, 7:34 am - IP Logged

                          I think I understand what LottoL is saying but it would be difficult with the ball drawn games.

                          Forget the RNG tickets being printed, they don't have to be manipulated in any way, but once they are purchased the info is sent to the central computer saying this combo was purchased in this place at this time. The lottery uses this for security reasons to protect themselves from someone making a fake ticket or saying they lost their ticket. The lottery can simply ask when did you buy the ticket, where did you buy the ticket, and at approximately what time? Then they can say sorry, that info is incorrect, it was on this date, at this store, at this time. Ok, so it has a legitimate purpose, but...

                          with the computer drawn games there is nothing to say within the 15 minute terminal shutdown and the actual drawing the central computer doesn't analyzes all the tickets bought for that particular drawing and produce a combo that was not purchased at all or has one of the lowest payouts available to be drawn.

                          As I said earlier, it would be difficult to do this with ball drawn games but you can make a computer pop up any combo you want at any time, no questions asked.

                          As far as RNG quickpicks, if you buy more than 1 get them on separate tickets. You will get more of a variety than buying them all on the same ticket. I bought 5 dollars on a jackpot game the other day and I was in a hurry so I got them all on one ticket. Of the 5 tickets I purchased 3 lines had a MB of 13 and the other 2 lines had a MB of 10. Tickets like that happen often when purchased on the same ticket. 

                          Thank you, this is what I was trying to say.  You said it much clearer than I.

                           

                          Check the State Lottery Report Card
                          What grade did your lottery earn?

                           

                          Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                          Help eliminate computerized drawings!

                            Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                            Chief Bottle Washer
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                            Posted: December 1, 2008, 7:34 am - IP Logged

                            so they confirmed each terminal has a separate rng.

                            but do they control what seeds are allowed to be used to began their so called random rng routine?

                            every night the terminal machines go down between certain hours do they up date there firmware?

                            I dont believe the quick pick terminal uses a true random generator(binary). Maybe they can control initial seed via limits.

                            I posted about the seed value in the other thread:

                            http://www.lotterypost.com/thread/182652/1134225

                             

                            Check the State Lottery Report Card
                            What grade did your lottery earn?

                             

                            Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                            Help eliminate computerized drawings!

                              pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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                              Posted: December 1, 2008, 11:35 am - IP Logged

                              I looked at the thread and it does not acknowledge whether the state has the capablity to control or influence initial seeds of their quick pick machine terminal. If they were totally indepenent rng they should use thermal noise to set initial seeds. Not timer or clock. Time register same seed if drawn at the exact same time and second of the day. Time only goes forward, it does not jump around to intialize a begining.