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Logistic map RNG to win?

Topic closed. 44 replies. Last post 6 years ago by pick4hawk.

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pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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Posted: July 16, 2009, 12:33 pm - IP Logged

These are the first few articles which got me interested in using the logistic map as a

Random number generator. 

Non-periodic pseudo-random numbers used in Monte Carlo calculations

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0701/0701099v1.pdf 

http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~wagner/pubs/logistic/logistic.pdf 

Logistic Map: A Possible Random Number

Generator

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/9310/9310004v1.pdf 

The B-Exponential Map:

A Generalization of the Logistic Map,

and Its Applications In Generating

Pseudo-random Numbers

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cs/pdf/0607/0607069v2.pdf 

 

I have been working on using the logistic map or other maps to be an RNG for about a year now.

I greatly feel they might somehow be used with past lottery numbers to choose winning numbers.

I would really like to see other people ideas-code or whatever on the topic. Sometimes other peoples view helps.

Jadelottery's pick 3 and pick 4 program and information has been giving me ideas, along with the logistic map for another type of program.

Any help or ideas you come up with may be even better then mine. I have been wondering if anything mechanically loaded off prior genuine winning numbers could choose the next.

    pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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    Posted: July 17, 2009, 11:13 am - IP Logged

    Some reasons I posted the Rng PDF's:

    1. Some linear LCG type generators have little capability of ever creating all posible combinations of a game like mega millions.

    2. Some systems I've seen here and else where are know better then a RNG.

    3. I wanted to give a new idea to use for daily type games. 

    4. I wanted feedback

    THanks

    Hawk

      edge's avatar - waveform

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      Posted: July 18, 2009, 9:14 am - IP Logged

      I responded to pick4hawk in a private email, but providing here my opinion as well on the matter of using logistic map.

      RNG PDF's they seem to be nice examples to generate pseudo random numbers that have better "properties" than let say built-in standard RNG computer functions, these new methods employ algorithm that operate on the threshold of chaos.

      For accumulating predictions pseudo random numbers can't offer much insight (in my opinion) one can not build an equation that leads to the same random sequence as let say power ball after sufficiently large N draws (you might succeed to parallel power ball lottery results after maybe up to 7 sequenced draws, and try to bet on the 8th
      hoping that you have modeled sufficient approximation of lottery random sequence) mathematically the larger N you managed to synchronize some deterministic equation (which is logistic map with a difference that after som N iteration it leads to chaos) to past lottery sequence, the larger becomes probability you will match upcoming sequence, and indeed a supercomputer (maybe even quantum computer) would allow you to make approximation for very large N!

      The idea might not be necessarily used in that way (to try to model lottery sequence into logistic equation exactly) but rather use it asymptotically, meaning to use it in order to "time" and "predict" formation of a chaotic attractor, but believe combination of many things is necessary, such as global and local entropy.

       In fact the "synchronizing method" is a crude form of Monte Carlo!

      ab actu ad posse valet illatio - from the past one can infer the future

        mej023's avatar - avatar 5857.gif
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        Posted: July 24, 2009, 12:12 am - IP Logged

        You cannot use the past to determine a probablistic future.

        The 'seed' for each generated number is itself a unique random number that changes for every number generated.

         

        You can determine a 'seed' that matches a particular string of known generated numbers but the next unknown number in the string cannot be mathematically determined.

          pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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          Posted: July 24, 2009, 12:09 pm - IP Logged

          Clearly, I believe the solution or resulting random stream is the result of a combination of more then one type of things.

           Attractors and Time Averages for Random Maps

          http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/math/pdf/0607/0607433v1.pdf 

          Cryptographic Pseudo-Random Sequences from

          the Chaotic H´enon Map

          http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cs/pdf/0604/0604018v2.pdf

          But that it still exists.

            mej023's avatar - avatar 5857.gif
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            Posted: July 24, 2009, 3:08 pm - IP Logged

            It's as if each number has a magnetic charge of a specific strength that fluctuates on a regular basis.

            Then an outside 'attractor' is in effect at specific points in time that pulls or connects those numbers based on the strength of their charge.

             

            Identifying what it is that is the 'attractor' is the biggest part of the problem. I believe that it is quantum based and is affected or driven by global conciousness.

              edge's avatar - waveform

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              Posted: July 24, 2009, 6:53 pm - IP Logged

              You cannot use the past to determine a probablistic future.

              The 'seed' for each generated number is itself a unique random number that changes for every number generated.

               

              You can determine a 'seed' that matches a particular string of known generated numbers but the next unknown number in the string cannot be mathematically determined.

              totally agree, if such a "seed" exists you could potentially prove that universe is nothing but a computer simulation, not sure if random numbers generated from threshold of chaos require seed, but they must! (didn't go to too much detail) in any case just approximating chaotic orbits of number trajectories might yield some results (dont know yet) not numbers exact per say (to win) but "cloud of numbers" what I am really seeking is an "escape" from theory of large numbers "prison" we are all confined to:)

              ab actu ad posse valet illatio - from the past one can infer the future

                pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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                Posted: July 28, 2009, 11:33 am - IP Logged

                I have been looking into the distribution of the numbers --in a attempt to match it using more then one type of Rng program. (currently for the daily games )

                The Input seed I have not totally figured out --however binary sequence matching seems interesting to me.

                Hasn't anyone ever tried to use math directly to come up a next set of numbers?

                Hawk

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                  Posted: August 2, 2009, 11:18 am - IP Logged

                  I responded to pick4hawk in a private email, but providing here my opinion as well on the matter of using logistic map.

                  RNG PDF's they seem to be nice examples to generate pseudo random numbers that have better "properties" than let say built-in standard RNG computer functions, these new methods employ algorithm that operate on the threshold of chaos.

                  For accumulating predictions pseudo random numbers can't offer much insight (in my opinion) one can not build an equation that leads to the same random sequence as let say power ball after sufficiently large N draws (you might succeed to parallel power ball lottery results after maybe up to 7 sequenced draws, and try to bet on the 8th
                  hoping that you have modeled sufficient approximation of lottery random sequence) mathematically the larger N you managed to synchronize some deterministic equation (which is logistic map with a difference that after som N iteration it leads to chaos) to past lottery sequence, the larger becomes probability you will match upcoming sequence, and indeed a supercomputer (maybe even quantum computer) would allow you to make approximation for very large N!

                  The idea might not be necessarily used in that way (to try to model lottery sequence into logistic equation exactly) but rather use it asymptotically, meaning to use it in order to "time" and "predict" formation of a chaotic attractor, but believe combination of many things is necessary, such as global and local entropy.

                   In fact the "synchronizing method" is a crude form of Monte Carlo!

                  One article I have found which envolves Monte Carlo and an RNG is:

                  The Monte Carlo Algorithm With A Pseudo-Random Generator

                  http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.41.314&rep=rep1&type=pdf

                    edge's avatar - waveform

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                    Posted: August 2, 2009, 5:33 pm - IP Logged

                    One article I have found which envolves Monte Carlo and an RNG is:

                    The Monte Carlo Algorithm With A Pseudo-Random Generator

                    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.41.314&rep=rep1&type=pdf

                    the paper is just exploring use of pseudo-number random algorithm in the Monte Carlo methods. a mathematical expose' with its usual formalism and dense prose. there are hundreds of these papers out there pick4hawk, there was actually surge in the academic interest in pseudo numbers in the 1980's, due to some work on cellular automata (non linear research was peaking in the mid 80's but sort of lost its appeal later on in the decade..., it simply failed to supply answers to many experiential problems...

                    ab actu ad posse valet illatio - from the past one can infer the future

                      pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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                      Posted: August 9, 2009, 10:50 am - IP Logged

                      It is my belief that the lottery is genuinely using a least two type of maps for the actual drawings. Perhaps, using thermal noise to load them.
                      I have new 2009 pdf’s that it is being used for Crypto logical purposes.

                      Hawk

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                        Posted: August 9, 2009, 11:10 am - IP Logged

                        How do you relate your map theory to drawings that shows numbered balls circulating in a cylinder and when an escapement is opened, the first 5 or 6 balls to come out are the drawing results?

                         * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
                           
                                     Evil Looking       

                          pick4hawk's avatar - Trek HAND3.gif

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                          Posted: September 3, 2009, 10:55 am - IP Logged

                          How do you relate your map theory to drawings that shows numbered balls circulating in a cylinder and when an escapement is opened, the first 5 or 6 balls to come out are the drawing results?

                          RJOH:

                          I relate the mechanical mixing of the genuine machine to be simular to how you suffle a deck of cards or elements of an arrays.

                          Hawk

                          *We may see something that isn’t there because of what we expect to see

                          Or conversely, we may not see something because we don’t expect to see it.*

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                            Posted: September 3, 2009, 10:59 am - IP Logged

                            Has anyone played around with the C code contained of the last page of this PDF:

                            The Logistic Lattice in Random number Generation
                            http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~wagner/pubs/logistic/logistic.pdf

                            Which I mentioned at the START of this Thread.

                            Hawk

                            *We may see something that isn’t there because of what we expect to see

                            Or conversely, we may not see something because we don’t expect to see it.*

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                              Posted: September 6, 2009, 10:41 am - IP Logged

                              Has anyone played around with the C code contained of the last page of this PDF:

                              The Logistic Lattice in Random number Generation
                              http://www.cs.utsa.edu/~wagner/pubs/logistic/logistic.pdf

                              Which I mentioned at the START of this Thread.

                              Hawk

                              The C code used in that program is another way of  randomising an exisiting random number generator. In the example they used tha ran() function to generate random double numbers, which are fed into the program, producing 100 random double numbers. When you substitute the ran() function with a fixed double number, then no matter how many times you run the program you get the same series of numbers output - it looks random but its the same set of numbers each time the program is run.

                              But with the lotteries we are dealing with a fixed number of integers - a much smaller variation than a range of doubles.  Each time the number 6 comes up in the last draw does not mean that the number 10 will or will not come up in the next draw. The numbers from past drawings are fixed in time, therefore it's not a good idea to use the ran() function to predict numbers for the next draw. And if you were to use previous draws numbers in the program, there's no garuantee the numbers produced will come up in the next draw.