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Can MM & PB Start Being Honest? Must this farce continue?

Topic closed. 53 replies. Last post 3 years ago by OldSchoolPa.

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Toronto
Canada
Member #138397
January 26, 2013
179 Posts
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Posted: June 22, 2013, 1:13 am - IP Logged

Horrible example.

Next time, instead of annuity, they should just say "105,175,000,000 Jackpot!" And in fine prints say "In vietnamese dongs. Worth about 5,000,000 USD."

The wager is in US Dollars, so the prize payment would be in USD. We don't pay with dongs here in America.

Actually this example is EXACTLY the same as what powerball/MM is doing. The currencies are different, because of the time value of money.

Incorrect. The value of the dong and dollar is different because of the currency exchange rate, not because of TVM.

It's so sad* when a person doesn't understand the difference between separate areas of finance.

 

* denotes purposeful re-use of passive aggressive insult commonly employed by yoho.

I know that exchange rates differences are not the same as the time value of money. But the result is the same; it creates a difference in the value of 1.

If something was wrong with what I said in the second highlighted part, it would be the grammar. When I said the "currencies are different", I was referring to the USD now versus the USD 30 years later. It is different, just as Vietnamese dongs are different to the USD. It doesn't matter whether the reason they're different is the same or not.

 

That the wager is in US dollars doesn't support your argument. The wager is also in 2013, so the prize payment should be given now, not 30 years later.

 

EDIT: And I thought you were going to stop responding to me? I am going to reach out my hand here. I apologize for everything I've said that offended you or anyone else.

No, I'm not just saying it. It's a genuine apology. I don't believe I've done anything wrong. I still believe that I am more right. Even so, I do apologize for offending people, I really am not a person who gains pleasure from other people's pains.

 

You yourself said that this forum should be a friendly environment for everyone. That includes you, but that should also include me. We have our differences. You might not like me. But taking every opportunity to harass me is not creating a friendly environment for anyone. harassment and rudeness only results in more flaming. Why don't we stop insulting each other and just get it over with? Take the high road, even if we may believe the other is a horribly disgusting person, let's forgive them, and return this forum to a friendly place for discussion, encouragement and maybe even knowledge.

    Avatar
    Toronto
    Canada
    Member #138397
    January 26, 2013
    179 Posts
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    Posted: June 22, 2013, 1:19 am - IP Logged

    It wasn't a personal attack, but a response to an idiotic comparison.

    "Your responses with absolutely no logic nor reasoning shows that you cannot argue against my points."

    Where is the logic in saying "It also makes sense for a guy who accidentally hit and badly injured an old lady at night to drive away as fast as possible so no one knows he did it."?

    Using your mindless logic it also makes sense to stop and a steal her purse before driving away as fast as possible.

    I'm not arguing any of your points against the advertise jackpot because you have none. Do you actually believe it makes no sense from a business standpoint to advertise the highest possible jackpot they will pay?

    It was clearly a personal attack. If you don't realize calling someone an idiot is a personal attack, I think you need to go back to school and learn English.

     

     Do you actually believe it makes no sense from a business standpoint to advertise the highest possible jackpot they will pay?

     

    Seriously, you really need to go learn English. You really lack reading comprehension. I clearly stated that I AGREED WITH YOU IN THAT IT DOES MAKE SENSE for the lottery.

     

    so why would you ask me if I actually believe it makes no sense? Seriously. I know it makes sense. I know the reasoning of why they do it this way. What I disagree with is the ethics of doing it this way. I'm not disagreeing from a business perspective. This is why I said I can see both sides of the argument.

     

     

    From what I see, the reason this argument has gone on so many pages is because the argument on either side is fundamentally different. Those who support the annuitized amount comes from a business perspective, saying that it benefits the lottery by doing it this way. This is true.

     

    But people who don't like seeing an inflated annuitized amount is arguing from an ethical perspective. While the inflated annuitized amount may benefit the lottery, it is a bit deceiving. It's not like we can't see the reasoning behind the annuitized amount, it's just we don't agree with the ethics.

      Teddi's avatar - Lottery-008.jpg

      United States
      Member #142499
      May 13, 2013
      1182 Posts
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      Posted: June 22, 2013, 9:03 am - IP Logged

      "In which other type of gambling win would this be okay to anyone?"

      Have you ever read the fine print on the large jackpot slot machines or some of the Caribbean Stud jackpots?

      "The people who win a $5M house aren't given an option of a 500K house if they want the house now or they can own parts of the house, once a year, until they get the full $5M house at the end of 30 years."

      A little late to be changing the subject trying to compare apples to oranges. Besides those raffles usually include a cash value prize too and if they don't, bring an auctioneer along.

      "In any other regard but money, the underlying principle would be utterly ridiculous to anyone and lawsuits would be unending."

      Haven't you ever read the terms and conditions on the backs of lottery tickets?

      "Well, the entire point of gambling is to end up with more money than you spend otherwise no one would gamble."

      May be true, but you seem to be the only here that doesn't know all the choices are known BEFORE you decide to gamble. If you're just gambling to "end up with more money than you spend", why are you complaining about how the lotteries advertise their jackpots?

      Wow. Bitter much?

      Are you capable of having a discussion without the high degree of passive aggressiveness or do you actually find it works for you? 

      I asked a question, if you don't like the question, move along to the dozens of other discussion threads out there. I'm sure the rest of us can continue the discussion and even hold different opinions without the need to lower the talks to a slinging match. Why people feel the need to constantly turn a fun topic into bitter diatribes is beyond me. 

      In Canada and the UK they advertise a JP and that's what the people win. No fancy shuffling of words or font size. There is no reason not to do the same here except that they can get away with not doing it. This isn't a discussion of the terms and conditions or what should be read and understood beforehand. Nor is it about taking sentences out of their full context to twist them so they can comport to your argument. Other countries lottery systems do extremely well without the shuffling act of annuity/lump sum payments. For what reason can't we have a large lottery with the same principle. 

      Snide remarks aside, that's the discussion; all the other nonsense and unwitty repartee notwithstanding.

      I might wake up early and go running.  I might also wake up and win the lottery.

      The odds are about the same.

        Teddi's avatar - Lottery-008.jpg

        United States
        Member #142499
        May 13, 2013
        1182 Posts
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        Posted: June 22, 2013, 9:18 am - IP Logged

        Annunity amounts are all about marketing and attempts at making jackpots seem as high as possible. It's the same kind of marketing mind set on scratch tickets that have statements such as "Win up to 10 times on this ticket" which has absolutely nothing to do with how much the actual ticket was destined to be worth...

        I completely agree. JoshUK put up a new discussion about how high the Euromillions had gotten to. In US dollars it comes out to $242M. If one person wins, that winner will actually take home more money than Gloria for all the hoopla about her winning over half a billion dollars. I can't help but to see the oddity in that. Had the $590M really been $590M, even after taxes she would have received $356M. Let's face it, Gloria was always going to be winning the lump sum, not the "real" JP. No 84 year old is going to take 30 years of annuity payments.

        I know the harping on the $590M is part of the lotteries advertising genius, but I would love to see what would happen if a MM/PB-style lottery started up where what is advertised is what you'd win. No annuity at all. A huge JP amount where (after taxes) you take it all home. A $590M winner was an actual $590M winner.

        I might wake up early and go running.  I might also wake up and win the lottery.

        The odds are about the same.

          Jon D's avatar - calotterylogo
          Los Angeles, California
          United States
          Member #103813
          January 5, 2011
          1530 Posts
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          Posted: June 22, 2013, 10:01 am - IP Logged

          I know that exchange rates differences are not the same as the time value of money. But the result is the same; it creates a difference in the value of 1.

          If something was wrong with what I said in the second highlighted part, it would be the grammar. When I said the "currencies are different", I was referring to the USD now versus the USD 30 years later. It is different, just as Vietnamese dongs are different to the USD. It doesn't matter whether the reason they're different is the same or not.

           

          That the wager is in US dollars doesn't support your argument. The wager is also in 2013, so the prize payment should be given now, not 30 years later.

           

          EDIT: And I thought you were going to stop responding to me? I am going to reach out my hand here. I apologize for everything I've said that offended you or anyone else.

          No, I'm not just saying it. It's a genuine apology. I don't believe I've done anything wrong. I still believe that I am more right. Even so, I do apologize for offending people, I really am not a person who gains pleasure from other people's pains.

           

          You yourself said that this forum should be a friendly environment for everyone. That includes you, but that should also include me. We have our differences. You might not like me. But taking every opportunity to harass me is not creating a friendly environment for anyone. harassment and rudeness only results in more flaming. Why don't we stop insulting each other and just get it over with? Take the high road, even if we may believe the other is a horribly disgusting person, let's forgive them, and return this forum to a friendly place for discussion, encouragement and maybe even knowledge.

          I am going to reach out my hand here. I apologize for everything I've said that offended you or anyone else.
          No, I'm not just saying it. It's a genuine apology. I don't believe I've done anything wrong. I still believe that I am more right. Even so, I do apologize for offending people...

          Uummm...nice lawyeresque non-apology apology there. No admission of wrongoing. To paraphrase, you are saying you're right, you've done nothing wrong, but you apologize if anyone was offended by what you said. Uh, yea...

          Your posts to date have been largely antagonistic, mean-spirited, and just full of negative energy. You will be judged by your conduct and actions,(going forward) not on any false words of contrition.

          Why don't we stop insulting each other and just get it over with? Take the high road, even if we may believe the other is a horribly disgusting person, let's forgive them, and return this forum to a friendly place for discussion, encouragement and maybe even knowledge.

          And on your VERY NEXT POST you go on the attack against Stack. Well that peace sure didn't last long, did it! Wink


            United States
            Member #116268
            September 7, 2011
            20244 Posts
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            Posted: June 22, 2013, 11:17 am - IP Logged

            Go to the Powerball website and in big bold letters they claim a $105 Million. In much smaller letters is the cash payout, valued at less than 61% of that large-fonted $105M. 

            They'll give you that full amount in drips and drabs over so long a period, you're using a walker and gumming baby food by the time you get it all, or you settle for 60 cents on the dollar to get it now.

            Yet even with the lump sum ripoff option, they force the winners to parade with that cardboard check for the amount they are NOT going to be paying them. 

            Can't we be like the other countries? What you see is what you get with no ambiguity? No fancy accounting?

            Why can't it be possible for $105 Million to actually mean that? Can we stop with the farce?

            Bang Head

            Can't we be like the other countries?

            In America we like a good farce. It keeps the stupid people honest.

              savagegoose's avatar - ProfilePho
              adelaide sa
              Australia
              Member #37136
              April 11, 2006
              3300 Posts
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              Posted: June 22, 2013, 3:29 pm - IP Logged

              when you win, get a cardboard cut out of the president holding  big novelt check for his share of the prize with a big grin over his face, maybe with a " yes we can " talk bubble, insist on all press photos of you  holding the check to also  include  the   pres holding his cut for the camera.

              2014 = -1016; 2015= -1409; 2016 JAN = -106; FEB= -81; MAR= -131; APR= - 87: MAY= -91; JUN= -39; JUL=-134; AUG= -124; SEP = -123; OCT= -84  NOV=- 73 TOT= -3498

              keno historic = -2291 ; 2015= -603; 2016= JAN=-32, FEB= +12 , MAR= -86, APR = -77. MAY= -48, JUN= -29, JUL=-71; AUG = -52; SEPT= -43; OCT = +56 NOV = -33 TOT= -3297

                Avatar
                Kentucky
                United States
                Member #32652
                February 14, 2006
                7297 Posts
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                Posted: June 22, 2013, 5:56 pm - IP Logged

                It was clearly a personal attack. If you don't realize calling someone an idiot is a personal attack, I think you need to go back to school and learn English.

                 

                 Do you actually believe it makes no sense from a business standpoint to advertise the highest possible jackpot they will pay?

                 

                Seriously, you really need to go learn English. You really lack reading comprehension. I clearly stated that I AGREED WITH YOU IN THAT IT DOES MAKE SENSE for the lottery.

                 

                so why would you ask me if I actually believe it makes no sense? Seriously. I know it makes sense. I know the reasoning of why they do it this way. What I disagree with is the ethics of doing it this way. I'm not disagreeing from a business perspective. This is why I said I can see both sides of the argument.

                 

                 

                From what I see, the reason this argument has gone on so many pages is because the argument on either side is fundamentally different. Those who support the annuitized amount comes from a business perspective, saying that it benefits the lottery by doing it this way. This is true.

                 

                But people who don't like seeing an inflated annuitized amount is arguing from an ethical perspective. While the inflated annuitized amount may benefit the lottery, it is a bit deceiving. It's not like we can't see the reasoning behind the annuitized amount, it's just we don't agree with the ethics.

                "It was clearly a personal attack."

                Only if you believe breaking the law by leaving the scene of an horrible accident makes sense.

                "But people who don't like seeing an inflated annuitized amount is arguing from an ethical perspective."

                Nobody cares if you disagree with MUSL's ethics in advertising the jackpot amount. Neither PB or MM tickets are sold in Toronto so you probably don't know state lotteries all across the U.S. advertise the huge jackpots in the form of highest possible win. The TV, radio, billboards, and the print media have no ethical problems nor does the large majority of U.S. players who obviously have the common sense to understand cash value and the math skills to estimate the tax obligations.

                "While the inflated annuitized amount may benefit the lottery, it is a bit deceiving."

                I'd agree if it was new or the cash value was hidden, but advertising the annuity jackpots was the standard for years. Even the live drawing announcer makes it clear the prize an annuity.

                  OldSchoolPa's avatar - Lottery-057.jpg
                  Gurnee, Illinois
                  United States
                  Member #49731
                  February 12, 2007
                  917 Posts
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                  Posted: June 29, 2013, 10:57 am - IP Logged

                  My point is either discontinue the annuity payments, or make the annuity payment equal to the cash payout. Make neither a higher option than the other. 

                  But if they are going to keep JP amounts different, at the very least quit posing the people who choose the lump sum payment with the total JP amount. At best it's disingenuous, and worst it's a grand lie. Either way, it isn't honest since that check doesn't represent the amount they are  planning on giving that person. 

                  Other countries have one payout amount. There's no pretense. Why do we keep doing this nonsense with PB and MM?

                  Teddi, the cash value amount is the amount the lottery has collected to invest to fund the annuity.  Annuities all either guarantee or offer some level of interest which results in a higher total amount over a period of time.  So it is not feasible for the lottery to pay out to those chosing present value cash value in a lump sum the annuity value (which is the projected amount over a period of years according to the particulars of the annuity).

                  When I win, I will insist on only taking a picture with the cash value amount that I select...that way, people won't think I have more money than I actually do.  And when I do my press conference, I will be sure to point out the big chunk of change Uncle Sam is taking out of my pocket in federal and state taxes.  So please do not contact me for a handout...go to your local bank for a loan instead to finance that wonderful business idea you have been kicking around!

                  Get MONEY!!! Winning a JACKPOT lottery is all the HOPE and CHANGE I desire!!!  NOW give me MONEY!US Flag

                  The guy who won the presidency in 2008 really won the lottery...he is now millions richer, travels in first class style, and even has a staff that would be the envy of the richest Powerball winner (she has a staff of 2). Every night he goes to sleep, he probably plays the close of Dave Chappelle's Show: I'm rich beyatch!