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Online lotteries in Brazil

Topic closed. 49 replies. Last post 12 years ago by BobP.

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Norway
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Posted: July 12, 2004, 11:55 am - IP Logged

No, I'm not a lawyer

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    Posted: July 12, 2004, 2:05 pm - IP Logged

    The WGI home page is blocked to internet accounts in the U.S. and several other countries where WGI won't accept membership from. 

    There are no physical products being sold that I can see.  BobP

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      Posted: July 12, 2004, 2:28 pm - IP Logged
      Quote: Originally posted by slampen on July 12, 2004



      As regards to this "Virtual World Direct" I don't know, maybe that's a pyramid scheme - haven't heard of it before. The text you refer to above come from an e-mail sent out from Sergeant Karen Suchar of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, as a personal scare campaign against WGI members and others. The truth is that there has not yet been even a trial in respect of this matter.

      The following article might be of interest, sent out by WGI Press Enquiries after some concerns among members:
      http://map-second.makeaprofit.info/NR/rdonlyres/6A3FD27E-725A-4582-8017-0796BB19F57C/0/WGIresponsereRCMPenquiries.doc

      Read it, and think for your self. In our country we have a "golden rule" saying; "innocent until proven guilty", and until the results of the trial are ready, WGI is fully legal - also in Canada. And I will be surprised if they doesn't get acquit.





      Read the article, page showed a login box but clicked through without entry of User and Pass. 

      Anyway, interesting in the sense it reads so much like all the other varients I've come across over the years for both legitimage companies and not.

      For a long time I watched the antics of Big the world lottery pyramid scheme and there were all these cases and protests of innocence while members were being told they couldn't be paid due to bugs in the new payment system which were being converted to atm cards, but you could always sell your shares to another (new) member, etc.

      Not going to argue what makes a pyramid scheme because pyramid schemes endlessly scheme to get around the laws to the point where products and what's sold means nothing, you end up with the court saying it knows a pyramid scheme when it sees one despite the happy testimony of local authorities.

      I hope we are done here soon because we're only here to discuss lottery and I can find no connection to wgi and brazil on the web.  BobP

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        Norway
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        Posted: July 12, 2004, 6:17 pm - IP Logged
        Quote: O
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          Posted: July 22, 2004, 2:53 am - IP Logged

          Wow, out of the blue I received a tip this evening from someone who wished to remain anonymous.  It turns out that World Games Inc. is in fact an illegal pyramid scheme, and is not even registered in Norway as they fraudulently claim on their Web site.  Here's the actual letter:

           

          Check the State Lottery Report Card
          What grade did your lottery earn?

           

          Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
          Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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            Posted: July 22, 2004, 3:48 am - IP Logged

            The only problem I see here is the regulation is based on, "You shall play no lottery but your own." and not on whether the game is legitimate in its own right.

            Speaking for the lottery community, I believe players would prefer the option to pick and choose among all available legitimate lottery games being played nation and world wide.

            Prohibiting lottery games purely on the basis of location goes against the very freedoms we aspire to. 

            This of course should not be confused with stamping out criminals running lotteries that are illegal because they rip people off, don't pay taxes, prizes or do anything else honestly.

            When a state offers an unpopular game we should have the right to vote with our feet so to speak and take our business to any game we prefer.  This business of every lottery guarding its customer base is like a neighborhood of fenced yards each with a barking dog to keep foreigners from other states away. 

            The funny thing is, states try to draw customers across state lines to buy tickets, yet claim it's illegal for their customers to play in other games.  It's already becoming clear lotteries have little respect for their customers running their legal monopolies.  Refusing to post results on time Az, Ga, changing to bogus computerized draws, raising odds and lowering lower tier prizes, don't expect things to get better soon as even when business drops away they never understand why. BobP
             

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              Posted: July 22, 2004, 7:15 am - IP Logged

              BobP,

              I think the point is that the company is an illegal pyramid scheme and they are lying about their registration in Norway, not that you can't play other states' games.  WGI is not a real lottery-centric company, they are a MLM outfit masquerading as a lottery company.

               

              Check the State Lottery Report Card
              What grade did your lottery earn?

               

              Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
              Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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                Dump Water Florida
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                Posted: July 22, 2004, 8:27 pm - IP Logged
                Quote: Originally posted by Todd on July 22, 2004



                BobP,

                I think the point is that the company is an illegal pyramid scheme and they are lying about their registration in Norway, not that you can't play other states' games.  WGI is not a real lottery-centric company, they are a MLM outfit masquerading as a lottery company.




                Dang, I do not want to argue WGI's side.  Norway is saying WGI can't offer a lottery bacause they are not registered in Norway to opperate a lottery. 

                Odds are they would not be granted a license. Odds are the New Jersey lottery would not be granted a license to sell tickets in Norway. 

                Unless they are running opperations off an abandon oil rig WGI is licensed somewhere anything goes.  They would claim being "legal" in their lair, people contacting them over the internet are there when betting. 

                I agree they are a pyramid scheme and illegal almost everywhere there are active consumer fraud laws.  I am simply saying the reasons Norway is giving for their lottery being illegal is based on turf law rather then consumer protection, then they get around to the pyramd scheme and do their job.  BobP
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                  Posted: July 23, 2004, 11:02 am - IP Logged

                  I have to reply to this. The Norwegian Gaming Board can't say WGI is illegal, even before any trial has taken place. What they say is WGIs lottery is illegal to advertise, because of the norwegian gaming monopoly - "Norsk Tipping". WGI has not been charged anywhere, and ain't going to, simply because their business is legitimate and according to all laws and rules in the contries where WGI is operating.

                  BUT; because Norway is a member of the EØS/EFTA, they have certain obligations to follow regarding flow of products between member contries. This paragraph has been broken by Norway in this case, and therefor some of the members in WGI have made legal proceedings against the norwegian government, and department for church and culture for breaking these laws - financial supported by WGI. More here:

                  http://www.makeaprofit.info/MaP3_CMS/pr/press20040719.htm

                  Does this sounds like a pyramid scheme? Don't think a pyramid scheme would support an action like this?

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                    Posted: July 23, 2004, 1:17 pm - IP Logged

                    slampen,

                    I can't believe you continue to support this scheme (WGI).  What about the fact that they are lying about being registered in Norway?

                    But wait, there's more.  My great anonymous tipster sent me some more in-depth materials about them.

                    This time from the Australian Competition and Consumer Commissions, including charges against CEO, Greg Kennedy and WGI's parent company, World Play Services for pyramid selling.  His trial ended June 9, 2004 and the proceedings were adjourned for judgement.  As you say, innocent until proven guilty, but we will see what they have to say.

                    Here's the full text:






                    From: Adams Francine
                    Sent: April 1, 2004 12:47 AM
                    To: <anonymous>
                    Cc: <anonymous>
                    Subject: FW: World Games Inc. - Investigation
                    Dear <anonymous>,
                     
                    The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission ("the ACCC") is responsible for ensuring that businesses comply with the Trade Practices Act 1974 ("the Act") (an Act of the Commonwealth).  Amongst other things, the Act prohibits unconscionable, misleading and anti-competitive conduct by corporations.

                    On 1 December 2003 the ACCC commenced legal proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia in Brisbane against Worldplay Services Pty Ltd and Greg James Kennedy ("the Respondents"). The ACCC alleges that Worldplay Services Pty Ltd, a company based on the Gold Coast, and Mr Kennedy, engaged in conduct in connection with the Internet site www.worldgamesinc.com which constitutes pyramid and/or referral selling, in contravention of sections 65AAC and 57 of the Act.

                    S65AAC provides that a corporation must not participate in a pyramid selling scheme and that a corporation must not induce, or attempt to induce, a person to participate in a pyramid selling scheme.

                    S57 provides that a corporation must not induce a consumer to acquire goods or services by representing that the consumer will, after the contract for the acquisition of the goods or services is made, receive a rebate, commission or other benefit in return for giving the corporation the names of prospective customers or otherwise assisting the corporation to supply goods or services to other consumers, if receipt of the rebate, commission or other benefit is contingent on an dvent occurring after that contract is made.

                    In its proceedings, the ACCC seeks:
                    "          declarations that the Respondents conduct contravened sections 65AAC and 57 of the Act;
                    "          injunctions restraining the Respondents from engaging in the conduct that is the subject of the ACCC's proceedings or similar conduct; and
                    "          orders requiring the Respondents to place corrective notices on the relevant Internet website.
                    The trial of this matter is scheduled for 7 - 11 June 2004 in the Federal Court, Brisbane.

                    Consumers who consider that they may be able to assist the ACCC by providing information in relation to this matter may contact the ACCC by:
                    Phone: 1300 302 502
                    e-mail:  infocentre@accc.gov.au
                    fax:      02 6243 1199
                    post:    ACCC
                                Enforcement and Coordination Branch
                                PO BOX 1199
                                DICKSON ACT 2602
                     
                    For your further information, the AUstralian current affiars and consumer interest program "A Current Affair" ("ACA") televised a story on Worldplay Services last night.  We are in the process of determining whether we can provide a copy to you, and may be retrained by Copyright laws.  However,  the ACA website is: http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/ and the details for the story are as follows: 
                     
                    "A Current Affair 31/03/2004 - 06:41 PM,  Channel 9 (Canberra) Summary: M00013538676 . 
                    Compere: Ray Martin .  Duration: 7:06 ,  Chief of Staff: Mr Robert Carmody 02 9439 4577 . 
                    Report on people handing over money to fraudlent internet gaming club, World Games. It claims to create wealth for investors. It is a classic pyramid scheme, according to some people. Profile of owner, Greg Kennedy, Legal pieces of the jigsaw are scattered all over the world. Parts of the company are scattered across the world, however it is uncertain whether it is an illegal operation. Aus. police are still trying to arrest, Quentin George. ACCC regard the scheme as 'illegal' and is trying to shut down the operation.






                    FURTHERMORE, there was a Swedish lottery conviction involving WGI.  Here's the full text from a Swedish newspaper reporter (still not convinced?).  I have the full-text PDF file of the court decision, but unfortunately it is in Swedish.






                    On March 31 2004 a woman (A) was convicted of violation of the Swedish Lottery Act (SWE: Lotterilagen (1994:1000) 54 § para 2 and 4.) She received a conditional sentence (SWE: villkorlig dom) and was ordered to pay 60 unit fines.

                    According to the Swedish lottery legislation organizing a so-called  chain letter game is prohibited. It is also prohibited to, for business purposes, promote participation in lotteries organized abroad, if the promoting is performed particularly for participating from Sweden. 

                    In court, the prosecutor referred to i.e written information about WGI, information of meetings, for recruiting, description of potential income, invoice and account information, e-mails and diary notes. 

                    A admitted to having booked a venue for a WGI meeting on one occasion and to having participated in meetings on about 60 occasions as a teacher and lecturer. A denied that she had been able to decide where in her net organization her recruits were to be placed, but she admitted that she could influence their placement. She admitted that she had about 1,500 persons in her down line and that she earned about 130,000 SEK from working for WGI.

                    A also admitted that she, for business purposes had promoted participation in a lottery organized abroad. A referred to the EC law and a judgement from the E C Court of Justice to prove that Swedish legislation was not applicable to this matter. She also referred to the fact that people with knowledge of legal matters had told her this business was not illegal.

                    The assessment of the District Court

                    The District Court found that:

                    " Lotteries can only be legally organized if there is permission from competent authorities. The evidence in this case proves that the activity of WGI is a game of which the possible gain mainly originates from the amount of participants entering the game. There has been no permission for this activity. Therefore the Lottery Act is applicable.

                    " The prosecutor has not been able to prove that the accused has organized the game in question. A has however admitted to promoting participation in lottery organized abroad, and the promoting was performed particularly for participating from Sweden.

                    " The WGI organization originates from Australia, that the people who recruited A was from Norway, that the money earned was placed in the Bahamas, that payments was partly made from a company in Singapore. The District Courts opinion is that there is no connection to the EU, and therefore the EC law is not applicable.

                    " The fact that a person with knowledge of legal matters told A that the WGI activity was not illegal does not change her legal responsibility.

                    " Because of the large amount of people in A's down line, the large number of meetings and the sum of money she made, the violation is regarded as serious.

                    The time period during which the judgement could be appealed has elapsed and there has been no appeal.






                    Are you willing to concede checkmate, or do you want to keep going until the bitter end?

                     

                    Check the State Lottery Report Card
                    What grade did your lottery earn?

                     

                    Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                    Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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                      Norway
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                      Posted: July 24, 2004, 7:09 am - IP Logged
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                        Posted: July 24, 2004, 8:36 am - IP Logged

                        Yes, I see I cannot change your mind.  A closed mind cannot be changed.

                        For someone who started this thread innocently looking for information about WGI, you all the sudden seem to be an expert on the company.  Perhaps your inquiry was just meant to get people to check out WGI, like a spammer.

                        This WGI is like peeling back an onion, and it gets more rotten as you near the center.

                        If the Australian case gets decided against WGI, I'm sure you'll still be in denial, but the rest of us will be laughing.

                         

                        Check the State Lottery Report Card
                        What grade did your lottery earn?

                         

                        Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                        Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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                          Posted: July 24, 2004, 9:01 am - IP Logged
                          Quote: Originally posted by Todd on July 24, 2004



                          Yes, I see I cannot change your mind.  A closed mind cannot be changed.

                          For someone who started this thread innocently looking for information about WGI, you all the sudden seem to be an expert on the company.  Perhaps your inquiry was just meant to get people to check out WGI, like a spammer.

                          This WGI is like peeling back an onion, and it gets more rotten as you near the center.

                          If the Australian case gets decided against WGI, I'm sure you'll still be in denial, but the rest of us will be laughing.






                          The reason I started the thread was to get answers whether a new lottery was mentioned in newspapers and media,  in Brazil or not, because I had heard someone who said, but was unable to check by myself because I don't read portuguese. Then I thought maybe some Brazilians visited these forums, but I was obviously wrong. I haven't started any spamming of the company nor its products, I was just answering the questions you guys asked me. In the opposite way it seems to me you are a bit prejudiced, when you at first didn't even knew the name "World Games Inc.", and after a few posts claiming it's illegal without being able to propose any proof of WGI being convicted.

                          But; If the Australian case gets decided against WGI, I'll agree with you, and admit I was totally brainwashed.

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                            Posted: July 24, 2004, 9:55 am - IP Logged

                            Yes, as soon as I became aware of WGI's business model (pyramid scheme), I did become highly prejudiced against them.  That's the way I am about all scammers, big or small.  Then I received additional information from a Lottery Post member who has been in an investigation of the company for some time.

                            I guess the fact that a company gets indicted by governments around the world doesn't even have you suspicious; you need a conviction before you'll even question the company.  That is rather myopic and strange.

                            I'll see you back here after the CEO gets convicted.

                             

                            Check the State Lottery Report Card
                            What grade did your lottery earn?

                             

                            Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                            Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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                              Posted: August 5, 2004, 5:21 am - IP Logged

                              I've been doing qute a bit of research into online gaming recently and came across this forum while researching online cross border lotteries. At the risk of interrupting a private argument it seems to me that both of you have missed something here and that is that WGI is not what the world would generally term a 'pyramid' scheme. Pyramid schemes are typically based purely or substantially on the money that changes hands rather than offering any kind of product.  Pyramid schemes all dventually fall down as new arrivals at the bottom of the pyramid dventually stop arriving leaving the last few tiers out of pocket.

                              It seems to me that wgi does offer financial commissions to it's players to introduce new players but then again so does amway.  Now I don't want to be selling amway for a living and most people that I've met that do sell amway seem to be the last person I'd want to socialise with.  However I'd suggest that the general view in North America and Europe is that amway is far from a scam despite the fact that the most lowly amway salesman is typically earning an amway Mr Big somewhere a cent or two everytime he sells a bottle of shampoo.  

                              Seems to me that wgi offer games and lotteries as their 'product'. Not everyone's cup of tea but last time I looked, wgi do have an EU based lottery licence and their activities are audited by the Lichenstien government amd they have been around for a while.  The legal action in Canada and Australia seems to me to smack of the last stand of government agencies trying to stem the inevitable tide of electronic economic activity. Losing sales tax on CDs and books ordered cross border over the internet is one thing - losing billions of revenue that currently accrues through State based lotteries, betting etc is quite another. 

                              When I looked more closely I also noticed that in Australia it is the ACCC which is the competition watchdog that has taken the action against WGI rather than the government itself.  Surely if this was a criminal matter rather than a potential trading law violation, the government itself (state or federal) would be prosecuting wgi.  My conclusion is that the Australian government continues to try and protect state based lottery revenue which I think exceeds $Aus10 b per annum and therefore attacks anything that looks like being the thin end of the wedge. Protecting lottery revenue seems to be the reason why Australia banned online gaming and lotteries in the first place - as it has much more to lose than gain from the online global gaming wave. 

                              Seems to me that wgi have demonstrated that they have the will and deep enough pockets to be prepared to fight what amounts to various test cases in various jurisdictions.  As to the Norwegian Gaming Board Document which I read above - Again I'd suggest this is a national lottery assocation fighting a rearguard action - note the document is addressed to the police and government ministers rather than having been written by them. 

                              For the record - I am neither a player or employee of wgi (or amway!)

                              Kind regards

                              Boots