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Landmark bill would ban computerized lottery drawings in Delaware

Topic closed. 53 replies. Last post 12 years ago by konane.

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Columbia City, Indiana
United States
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December 9, 2003
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Posted: February 10, 2005, 3:34 pm - IP Logged

Well, fellas, lunch is served. I'll let you guys have this one.

Enjoy!

Come, Pinky; we must prepare for tomorrow night...

Jim

    MADDOG10's avatar - smoke
    Beautiful Florida
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    Posted: February 10, 2005, 3:51 pm - IP Logged

     geez, i thought we were talking about the weakest "link", not the whole fence..!

                                                 

                                                   "  When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty "

      Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
      Chief Bottle Washer
      New Jersey
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      Posted: February 10, 2005, 4:05 pm - IP Logged

      bigbets:

      A tub of swiss cheese has far fewer holes than your arguments.

      I love how you say that a RNG is fair because they "have been used for years and years for keno and slot machines."  I guess you've got me cornered on that one!  Keno games and slot machines are well-known for their fairness and accuracy, huh?  (On the contrary, casinos love 'em because they can control exactly what machines payout the most.  Is that what you're after?)

      I think the fact that the lottery can easily catch people who try to rig the games using mechanical draw machines is a testament to their auditability.  But you're proposing using technology which makes it impossible for your regular old "C" math student to see if someone has rigged it.  I take no comfort in the fact that computer fraudsters have not been caught.

      Overall, you sound like someone involved with the lottery (I'd place a wager on that), and you're tired of regular old citizens (i.e., the players) complaining about your wonderful technology.

      I have tip #96 for you:  take your fingers out of your ears and start listening.  Swallow that pride and do what the players want.  In the end, you'll be happier.

       

      Check the State Lottery Report Card
      What grade did your lottery earn?

       

      Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
      Help eliminate computerized drawings!

        MADDOG10's avatar - smoke
        Beautiful Florida
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        Posted: February 10, 2005, 4:22 pm - IP Logged
         



        w t g
        IMG alt=Custom Smiley src= http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_43.gif"> 

                                                     

                                                       "  When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty "

          DoctorEw220's avatar - alien helmet.jpg
          Yinzer Country, PA
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          Posted: February 10, 2005, 5:27 pm - IP Logged

          here's a way that may be cheaper to draw pick 3 and pick 4 games.



          build a slot machine. 3 slots for pick 3, and 4 slots for pick 4. the draw talent pulls the handle, and the slot machine goes to work. no balls to fill with lead paint. no air machines to break.

          I've redone my website.  Go to www.dr-ew.com.  I kept a lot of the old stuff, and I've added some new stuff.  Look for more new stuff in the coming weeks.

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            Philly
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            February 10, 2005
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            Posted: February 10, 2005, 7:40 pm - IP Logged

            Hey, Todd. Swiss cheese? I don't see you filling in any of those holes with facts or references or experience from visiting a gaming operation and seeing something amiss. You do miss the point, and I am certain you did not intend to insult by insinuating I am a lotery person out to battle the cynics and naysayers...

            You see, while all of the cynics and naysayers are worried about whether a draw method is rigged (which isn't happening at the hands of any state or casino in any small conspiracy, at least)  they are missing the factual reason behind why they do not win. The answer is math, not method.

            You are correct, and I stated earlier, that randomizers are set up to pay out a specific amount over time. Is this fair? Why, yes. And its legal. And it is audited like crazy in this country. That is how Lotteries and casinos make money. Are you saying that ping pong balls are set up to be more fair, i.e. pay more? You would be wrong if you said yes.  All drawing methods will favor "The House" in the long run. A 6 of 6 of 49 combination drawn by ping pong balls is the exact combination drawn by a true RNG running the same mathematical combinations. If you know this to be unfactual in any case, let's see the case and or study that shows so. The proof of the pudding is in the prizes paid, not the conjecture of those who do not truly understand the mathematics of probabilties (my 'C's were when I was babe chasing and carousing, so I have an excuse for one semester. I did improve )

            Moreover, you miss the greatest point of all. Lotteries have been paying out more and selling more and they do not wish to pay out less. Ask them. They will tell you. They all want to be like Mass and Connecticut. If they paid less, they would sell less.  You could do your denizens a favor and post links to pubicized documents that show I am wrong, if there are any. In fact, quite the opposite is true as to lotteries' desires. I have done my research as I intend to develop a market a PAF reciprocal probilities tool to market to lottery players. My research does include visiting lotteries and consulting with companies that build and certify RNGs for slots, keno, lotteries, and mathematical research.

            As to your issue with stating ping pong balls make a more visible criminal trap, I disagree. Lotteries will catch someone perpetrating a crime with an RNG as quickly as with a ping pong ball. In the Delaware, D.C. and PA lotteries, the auditing of seals and certifications is  pretty impressive. I have witnessed drawings at all 3.

            I'm not trying to convcince anyone that they should like an RNG drawing any more than a ping pong ball drawing. The conspracy theories I read are just so implausible that I've got to suggest that the believers in such scams should see for themselves. A call for cynics to seek truth is nothing new. It just seems like such an incredible waste of energy on a cynical whim.

            Are the Lotteries and casinos really corrupt? Would you say that without knowing for sure? Is it easier to scream corruption than to assume that the math is stacked against you? Why are there no criminal investigations? Why do the lotteries let citizens, the media, law enforcement, independent auditors, and politicians in? Are they the lotteires that smart to pull something like this off? Are we that naive to think that all government is in on it? I'll let you each answer those questions for yourselves. Just try to imagine the magnitude of any conspiracy in real world terms as you come up with your answers.

            So you don't like randomizers? No problem. Don't play when they use them. Me, I will take my C's in college math (and my better grades, too) and my understanding of the gaming industry and make wise bets. The absolutely beautiful irony in all of this is that so many of us players use spreadsheet solvers with linear programming regression modeling and RNGs in our expensive lottery prediction software tools to attempt to determine the outcome of drawings using ping pong balls. Go figure!

            FYI, Delaware started using their RNG in 1997. The payouts for the Lotto game just retired and the play 3 and play 4 games are higher in the last 7 years than the previous 7. If you write to them, they will send you their annual reports. Pennsylvania and Florida are actually in a bit of trouble right now because their payouts have been running too high and they might not make their required contribution to the state. Does that sound like a state keeping money from players? For those of you who don't know how a typical lottery works, there are minimum requirements for distribution of each dollar they take in. Typically, 30% goes back to the state, 50-60% in prizes, 7-10% in retailer commissions, 5-7% in system vendor fees, and the rest in operating costs for salaries and marketing.

            Read, read, read; ask, ask, ask. Don't just take my word for it and don't fall into the easy answer traps.

            FYI, I know I am dating myself, but I've been around long enough to remember when PA and Delaware "legitamized" the street numbers. The illegal street numbers games were based on one of many things: the last 3 digits of the volume of the NYSE, the results of a particluar horserace at a particular track, and sometimes just based on whatever the mob wanted to base it on. We always hated the numbers and were certain that it was fixed. every now and then, someone down the blcok would win a straight bet, and one of us would win a box bet. Just enough to keep us playing for several more days. When NY, NJ, PA, DE, DC, and MD started using ping pong balls, there was an uproar like you wouldn't beleive. The ping pong balls were fixed and goverment was corrupt. Sound familiar to today's randomizer situation?

            My supplemental point is that we gamblers (and anybody, for that matter), hate change. When we lose, we blame "The House" first. Be smart. think about why you really lost and learn what to bet, when to bet, and why to bet rather than complain about some phantom conspiracy. The House isn't going to go under just becasue we complain while we still keep playing. As I metioned, Delaware changed 7 years ago. Players have been complaining ever since. But they are still playing.

            Regrds and TTFN 

            BB


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              Posted: February 10, 2005, 7:51 pm - IP Logged

              bigbets:

              NY Lotto returns ONLY 38%-40% to players. Be thankful you don't live here.

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                Philly
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                Posted: February 10, 2005, 8:17 pm - IP Logged

                Their site shows a different figure--57%. Is your figure for a specific game? Lotteries do intentionally create an aggregate payout across all game. For example, keno will typicallly pay around 60-65% whereas a daily numbers game is usually a payout odds game around 50%. If you needed to check on the veracity of the figure on the page below, you could contact the NY State Comptroller/Auditor:

                http://www.nylottery.org/ny/nyStore/cgi-bin/ProdSubEV_Cat_333653_SubCat_337630_NavRoot_305.htm

                http://www.osc.state.ny.us/finance/


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                  Posted: February 10, 2005, 8:18 pm - IP Logged

                  bigbets:

                  The 38%-40% figure is for the NY Lotto 6/59 game.

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                    Philly
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                    Posted: February 10, 2005, 8:35 pm - IP Logged

                    Okay. I'm guessing their keno and instant tickets are the best payout percentages. It's interesting to  do a little reading of state code and Lottery law. I don't know anything about NY lottery code, but Mass does not have a required return to the state like Delaware and PA. This means that they can jack up payouts on instant tickets and keno, while making it up on lower payout games like lotto. The key is deciding whether you want to play long-odds and expect very few winning experiences (typical lotto games) or play better overall odds and expect more smaller prizes. It would be nice if all states posted "average odds" or "average overall odds" which means your chance of winning any prize. I mentioned Delaware's Multi-win Lotto as a pretty hot game right now becasue it has average overall odds of winning any prize at 1:5.7. The old Delaware Lotto game had 1:360 oddds of winning any prize--pretty slim. This new game is almost as good as an instant and keeps you in the game for a lot longer (another objective of good game design and optimized higher payouts). On top of that, the middle prizes have good odds as well. So does PA's Match 6, but Match 6 has more $2 winners and not as favorable of odds in the $20 to $500 level. I was told by a Delaware retailer that there have been several $1,000 winner each drawing and a $52,000 winner the second drawing. This is a big deal for such a small state. It's worth the short drive for me. But just for fun

                    BB

                      Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                      Chief Bottle Washer
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                      Posted: February 10, 2005, 8:36 pm - IP Logged

                      Bigbets,

                      I see from your response that (a) you did not deny being connected to the lottery in some way, and (b) you like to write long, wordy responses that would require me to write a similarly long, windy response in order to rebut all the nonsense you wrote.

                      Sorry, but I don't have the time necessary to do that kind of thing, especially when your every one of your arguments are so specious, requiring me to write an unnecessarily long response.

                      So, you're saying (in your profile) that you're from "Philly", eh?  Does that mean you're originally from Philly, or what?  I hope I'm not asking something "insulting" to you.  I don't think questioning the motives or location of a person coming here and writing a diatribe from an obviously biased point of view to be "insulting".  But I have no doubt you will claim to be "insulted" because it diverts from the point without having to answer it.

                      Being "long-winded" does not make one "smart" or "right".

                       

                      Check the State Lottery Report Card
                      What grade did your lottery earn?

                       

                      Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                      Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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                        Philly
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                        Posted: February 10, 2005, 9:59 pm - IP Logged

                        I didn't know I needed to state my city of origin and whether I was not with a Lottery for you to sanction me as credible. Well, I am not with a Lottery. Yes, I was born in Philly. Southside, born in 1947. Grew up in Wilmington in Browntown. Male. Vet. Systems Engineer by trade, B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Penn State. Go Lions....

                        Anything else? Do I also need to agree with your oversimplified view (blame) of why people don't win at lottery games now? 

                        Specious? Wow. How much more insulting can you get? Is this your site, Todd? I didn't recognize you as such until I just looked at your profile. Thanks for the warm welcome. 

                        Here it is, Todd: How can somebody perpetuating an unfounded, general, global accusation against the gaming industry call anyone with personal experience and an educated opionion specious? Another nice irony, here.  Specious exactly describes your position on corrupt lotteries. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=specious

                        I don't buy the "I don't have time...." cop out.  And you don't need to prove anything to me. I prefer balls myself. The difference between me and you is that I chose to see things and learn for myself--one way otr the other--that my concerns of gaming system integrity were real or unfounded. My understanding of how lotteries and casinos work, think, and prosper has helped me to develop a solid product. I think people should see for themselves rather than jump in on any easy and convenient blame game. It makes a person feel better, as you told me to do in you first response.

                         Math, Todd; math. When the next drawing method comes, and when the next lottery or casino administration comes in, people are still going to lose more often than win unless they pay attention to the math. If they fret, fuss, an moan about a cheating "House" they are wasting their energy. They might as well try crstals and tea leafs. Lottery's and casino can legally and efficiently plan for payouts and frequency of winners. In ost cases, they are required to show their math. Most everyone fails to try to understand the math when they lose. It makes no sense for a systemic cheat. Sure, some knuckhead individual will show up and try to pull something off. Certainly he or she will get caught. That will only furhter serve to prove that it is not a systemic corruption, but an occaisional thief.

                        A few years ago, I thought the PA and Delaware Lottery were both corrupt. I decided to learn how they worked to rest my anger. I'll say it again, folks. Don't take my word for it. Or anybody elses, for that matter. Speak up. Ask questions. Learn for yourself. You'll make better bets in gaming and your life

                        BB

                          Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                          Chief Bottle Washer
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                          Posted: February 10, 2005, 11:41 pm - IP Logged

                          I think you need to find a web site where hyper-active ego-centrics swap long stories.

                          I was correct when I stated that you fill your posts with specious arguments.  Glad you looked it up.

                          When I mentioned Philly, it was because you are not in Philadelphia right now.  Nor where you when you made your first post.  How about you tell us where exactly you were?

                          The reason I ask is that we don't take kindly to people who intentionally mislead the members here as to their location.  In your case, it is a major "oversight" - or perhaps deception?

                          Here are the rules, which you may want to take a look at, and which are very clear about misleading the membership as to your location.  To guard against what you are doing.

                          Have a nice day!

                           

                          Check the State Lottery Report Card
                          What grade did your lottery earn?

                           

                          Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                          Help eliminate computerized drawings!

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                            Philly
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                            Posted: February 11, 2005, 6:48 am - IP Logged

                            Well, Todd. You are right about one thing. I need to find a Website where the host is objective and doesn't ask people with different opinions to leave. I am from Philly. I work in both PA and Delaware.and am posting from Delaware. I've already publicly posted personal information about myself way beyond you rules. Where are you from. Jersey, huh? Where in Jersery? WHere were you raised?

                            But you still fail to provide any credible foundation for your position. Guess you don't have one.

                            Bet smart, folks.

                            BB

                            ...in Philly, Delaware, and any other place where there is Web access--

                              Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                              Chief Bottle Washer
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                              Posted: February 11, 2005, 8:50 am - IP Logged

                              bigbets:

                              You know exactly what I'm talking about, and again you throw out useless comments and arguments in order to hide your true intentions.  I never asked personal information - you're the one who started throwing out useless junk like "male, went to Penn State (go Lions)", etc.  (Although I love Penn State, you mentioned it as a sarcastic remark.)

                              We're inching closer to the truth here, but it's obvious that you don't want to be forthcoming without being confronted.

                              Anyone following this thread should understand that the person making these claims has a connection to the State of Delaware, and as a result speaks from a position of what is best for the state, rather than what is best for the player.

                              The members here have become quite savvy at detecting the differences between honest debate and ulterior motives.  Big bets, you have been uncovered for what you are.

                              You would have done much better if you made it clear what your motivations were, so that people can judge for themselves if they want to listen to your arguments.

                               

                              Check the State Lottery Report Card
                              What grade did your lottery earn?

                               

                              Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                              Help eliminate computerized drawings!