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Breakfast buddies file suit over lottery ticket

Topic closed. 83 replies. Last post 11 years ago by libra926.

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Michael E. Port's avatar - walt
Dallas, Texas
United States
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January 7, 2004
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Posted: December 31, 2005, 8:00 am - IP Logged

The suit asks for a judgment of $350,000 in compensatory damages and $100,000 in punitive damages and a finding that the Salcones not get any share of the winnings. The case is assigned to Judge Andrew Logan.

Actually that's smart.  They are suing for MORE than the ticket is worth, so he will "settle" the lawsuit by agreeing to split the money like he should have in the beginning.  And if he doesn't settle, then the winnings will pay for lawyer's fee, court costs, and make him have to take out a second mortgage to pay his former friends for his greed and theivery.

After reading news reports over the years, seems like the two problems that occur with lottery pools is:

  1. 1) past players want a cut due to some vague oral "agreement" even though they didn't kick in money for the winning ticket 
  2. 2) ticket holder claims it was THEIR personal money that bought the ticket, not the group money.

To address those two problems, in our Mega Millions lottery pool at work we actually have a legal agreement at the top of the signup sheet detailing how it all works.

  1. 1) only people signing up for that drawing (and paying money) get a share.  Small past winning roll over into new drawings but you HAVE to sign up again (and pay money again) to get a share.  Winning part of $5 in the last drawing does not entitle you to a share of the jackpot if we win this week, even though the $5 winnings was used to buy more tickets.  That's the rules we have, it's spelled out in writing, and we have your signature that you are agreeing to the rules. 
  2. 2) Also, we make photocopies of all the tickets BEFORE the each drawing.  the photocopies are distributed, so there's no question what the group ticket numbers are.  If I'm buying the tickets and I'm not working that day, I've even scanned them at home and e-mailed the attachment to several people at work and they make the copies to distribute.  A little more hassle but I don't want there to be any questions if I happen to buy a winner with my own money.  Believe me, if you win (as part of a group or by yourself) people will look for any angle to try to get some of that.  Our legal agreement and procedures have taken care of any possibility we can think of. 
Also, we always buy annuity tickets. That's because IF you buy annuity option you can then choose cash if you want when you present the ticket, but if you have bought a cash option ticket you've already made your choice.  Annuity ticket preserves your all your payment options until you present the ticket.  You don't actually have to take the annuity with an "annuity" ticket, but you HAVE to take the cash with a "cash" ticket. Not many people know that.  So, we would let the group vote on what they want if we ever won -- whether annuity payments or cash.  Yeah, most likely the group would choose cash, but why limit the options behore you even win?

This might be true in your state, but in Texas you have to decide if you want Cash Option or Annuity. 

I run two different Lottery Pools and my members want me to buy Cash Option.  Several of my members older and would not live to collect all their winnings.

For my own tickets I always buy Annuity.  But for my group it's always Cash Option.  And in Texas how you buy it is how you be able to collect it.  You can't change your mind while your in Austin.

Michael

Michael E. Porter

 

Michael E. Porter

        meporter@myway.com

    Rick G's avatar - avatar 1766.jpg
    FEMA Region V Camp #21
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    Posted: December 31, 2005, 11:40 am - IP Logged

    KY, we just don't have enough information from the article. When I referred to the defendant having to prove his innocence in court, what I meant was that the prosecution assumes it will be able to meet their burden of proof in the first place or the case would not have made it to trial. Therefore the defendant can either do nothing and let the jury decide if the burden of proof has been met or he can attempt to "prove" either his innocence or that the prosecution has not met their burden of proof. So in a sense, in our legal system, the defendant does have something to "prove" in court.

    Rlevins, thanks for the background on odds vs. probability. I figured their was a distinction but you helped to clarify it.

    Happy New Year!

    Posted 4/6:  IL Pick 3 midday and evening until they hit:  555, 347 (str8).


      RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
      mid-Ohio
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      Posted: December 31, 2005, 2:30 pm - IP Logged

      I was in a similar situation one time with some co-workers, but because everyone were friendly and the winning amount was smaller , there wasn't a problem. 

      Before I retired and MegaMellions came to Ohio, it was the BigGame in Michigan. A few of my co-workers had heard a couple of our co-workers were heading up to Michigan after work to buy some BigGame tickets for themselves so ten of us threw $5 into an envelope and asked them to pick up $50 worth of tickets for us. The following Monday those co-workers handed us an envelope with $50 worth of tickets.  They said they had brought $200 worth of tickets, divided them up according to the money given them by different co-workers, put them in envelopes and sealed them before the drawing.  We learned later they had  given themselves the envelope that contained a $1000 worth of winners and the other envelopes contained all losers.  Some of us wondered had they actually checked the tickets for winners after the drawing before putting them in the envelopes for us.

      We figured we gave them $50 for tickets and they gave up $50 worth of tickets and if they brought some winners and they said the winners weren't among our tickets then that was the end of it.  Maybe we would had felt a little different had the prize been worth $100,000 or more, we probably would have at least wanted our $5 back.

      Now that I'm retired, I don't play in pools anymore and if I buy any extra tickets for anyone when I drive over to Indiana to play PowerBall, I make sure they receive their tickets before the drawings.  That way if I win big, they know it's all mine and if they win I hope they will at least give me something for my time and gas to make the drive. 

       * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
         
                   Evil Looking       

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        Bethesda, Maryland
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        Posted: December 31, 2005, 2:43 pm - IP Logged

        The part about freezing your bank account is a big enough deterrent for me.

        LurkingHAPPY NEW YEAR ONE & ALL.....12/31/05.......(last day of Dec & last day of 2005)

         Hi "DD".......lolololololol.....and the part of the story that reads:

        "The suit asks for a preliminary injunction restraining the Salcones from transferring, concealing or destroying any of their property and stopping five banks and a credit union from releasing any funds to the Salcones".....Damnation.......lololololololol

        The only turnips in this story are the Salcones...........& the Court is making "rutabagas" out of them..............

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          Bethesda, Maryland
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          Posted: December 31, 2005, 2:55 pm - IP Logged

          I was in a similar situation one time with some co-workers, but because everyone were friendly and the winning amount was smaller , there wasn't a problem. 

          Before I retired and MegaMellions came to Ohio, it was the BigGame in Michigan. A few of my co-workers had heard a couple of our co-workers were heading up to Michigan after work to buy some BigGame tickets for themselves so ten of us threw $5 into an envelope and asked them to pick up $50 worth of tickets for us. The following Monday those co-workers handed us an envelope with $50 worth of tickets.  They said they had brought $200 worth of tickets, divided them up according to the money given them by different co-workers, put them in envelopes and sealed them before the drawing.  We learned later they had  given themselves the envelope that contained a $1000 worth of winners and the other envelopes contained all losers.  Some of us wondered had they actually checked the tickets for winners after the drawing before putting them in the envelopes for us.

          We figured we gave them $50 for tickets and they gave up $50 worth of tickets and if they brought some winners and they said the winners weren't among our tickets then that was the end of it.  Maybe we would had felt a little different had the prize been worth $100,000 or more, we probably would have at least wanted our $5 back.

          Now that I'm retired, I don't play in pools anymore and if I buy any extra tickets for anyone when I drive over to Indiana to play PowerBall, I make sure they receive their tickets before the drawings.  That way if I win big, they know it's all mine and if they win I hope they will at least give me something for my time and gas to make the drive. 

          LurkingHAPPY NEW YEAR "RJ"......(last day of dec & of 2005)

          I can appreciate your point. By the same token when I have played among a "collective body" the purchase is made at lunch time, the tickets all xeroxed, whereby we all rec copies. I don't mind playing among collective bodies as long as the group is small and everyone is very friendly.....

          However, Salcone was really stupid in how he pursued and implemented his plan.

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            NY
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            Posted: December 31, 2005, 5:52 pm - IP Logged

            KY, we just don't have enough information from the article. When I referred to the defendant having to prove his innocence in court, what I meant was that the prosecution assumes it will be able to meet their burden of proof in the first place or the case would not have made it to trial. Therefore the defendant can either do nothing and let the jury decide if the burden of proof has been met or he can attempt to "prove" either his innocence or that the prosecution has not met their burden of proof. So in a sense, in our legal system, the defendant does have something to "prove" in court.

            Rlevins, thanks for the background on odds vs. probability. I figured their was a distinction but you helped to clarify it.

            Happy New Year!

            You're definitely right about the lack of info. It seems the reporter didn't think to ask many questions of the lottery department or the plaintiffs. The defendant probably shouldn't have answered many questiona even if they were asked.

            As for the proof issue, a lawyer working a civil case on contingency may be willing to press a case that isn't really strong in the hopes that the defendant will offer a settlement that makes the lawyer's time worthwhile, and , maybe we're just looking at it from different perspectives. If the plaintiffs offers solid evidence that supports their claim the defendant may have to disprove or discredit  that piece (or pieces) of evidence  so it doesn't lead the jury to fnd them responsible, but I wouldn't describe that as proving something.

            I've always thought the difference between probability and odds was a bit strange, but since it's usually limited to sports betting I've never thought much about it. As far as the idea about each of  10 chances all being losers, remember that you don't lose with the first number, and then lose with the second, and so on. The winning numbers get drawn and then you have 10 sets of numbers that might match them. Once the numbers are drawn they are what they are and it's all instantaneous.  Its just the checking of your numbers that happens as separate, sequential acts. If you buy 10 tickets for pick 3 you've  chosen 1% of the possible outcomes (10 of 1000 is the same as 1 of 100, in terms of probability), so there is a 1% chance that one of your 10 choices will match the winning numbers. Each ticket has a 0.1% chance, but your chances are additive. Once you start checking your tickets, the probability decreases each time you identify a losing ticket, but your chances will still be slightly better than if you had only bought the tickets you haven't checked yet. When you're down to one ticket, you'll know it won't be one of the 9 numbers you already lost with, so instead of a 1 out of 1000 chance you'll have a 1 out of 991 chance. For each ticket that doesn't win you've also removed one number from the group of numbers the winning number has to be in.  If your first ticket is 000 and that wasn't the winning number then there are only 999 possibilities left. After you've lost with 001, 002, and so on, the winner has to be one of the numbers from 009 to 999. Does that help?

            Probability isn't at all intuitive for most people.  If you bought 90% of the possibilities for each of 10 consecutive draws most people would figure you should have won 90% of the drawings, but you could lose every time (extremely unlikely) or you could lose 3 times (still very unlikely). That's balanced by the chance that you could win all 10 times, which has a probability of about 35%.

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              Posted: December 31, 2005, 5:55 pm - IP Logged

               LadyC wrote:

              << For the record, the claim was paid that's why the plaintiffs request the defendant's assets be frozen. 

              I find it rather odd that since the lottery proved the ticket came from the block of tickets sold for the group >>

              Not that I'm the least bit surprised when I find out that a reporter got something wrong, but  the article is specific enough in the details about the lottery department saying the ticket hasn't been claimed that it seems unlikely the reporter got it wrong. The article here also doesn't point to any proof that the ticket was part of the pool's purchase. Do you have a cite for the article where you found your info?

                RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
                mid-Ohio
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                Posted: December 31, 2005, 10:17 pm - IP Logged

                If Michael and Theresa Salcone brought all the tickets for their breakfast buddies and themselves at the same time, it may be harder for their buddies to prove that they gave them the losing tickets and kept the winner for themselves intentionally.  There was a similar case in Massachusetts some years back in which a couple traveled out of state to buy lottery tickets for an office pool and picked up a few extra tickets for themselves at the same time.  The tickets the couple kept had the jackpot winner and the pool suited for a share and lost, the court ruled the couple was lucky and the pool wasn't.

                 * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
                   
                             Evil Looking       

                  mylollipop's avatar - Trek STLOGO6.png

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                  Posted: January 1, 2006, 12:36 am - IP Logged

                  C-O-N-T-R-A-C-T  or no play...

                    PERIOD!

                  Smash

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                    Posted: January 1, 2006, 8:50 am - IP Logged

                    Has no one noticed how ironic the world is becoming.  A group of "friends" wanting to play a game togther now need a contract covering every concievable option of winning and losing.  In the not too distant future, we'll be outsourcing all of our enjoyment; it'll let us blame failure on some one else and still keep our friendship.

                    Cheers

                    |||::> *'`*:-.,_,.-:*''*:--->>> Chewie  <<<---.*''*:-.,_,.-:*''* <:::|||

                    I only trust myself - and that's a questionable choice

                      fja's avatar - gnome1

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                      Posted: January 1, 2006, 12:41 pm - IP Logged

                      Its definitley a "me" world....We look for someone or something to blame for our mistakes and failures in life and happiness....Being in the hospitality business for over 20 years, I' ve come across alot of people that think that they are entitled to what ever the other guy is getting.....and as far as I'm concerned the only lottery pool that works is the one with no winners.....

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                        Posted: January 1, 2006, 12:54 pm - IP Logged

                        KY, 

                         I am not saying the reporter got the details wrong, it may have been a timing issue.  You can also look at the Ohio Lotterys website as all winners names and city are a matter of public record.

                        A phone call to the Lottery will confirm that the claim was paid. 

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                          Las Vegas
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                          Posted: January 1, 2006, 2:54 pm - IP Logged

                          In regards to the creditability of the Salcone's the following is documented:

                          Michael Salcone member of the Italian-American Festival Committee suspended and released to due $3,000.00 missing from festival accounts !

                          Theresa Salcone terminated from position with local Warrren, OH jewelry store for theft !

                            RJOh's avatar - chipmunk
                            mid-Ohio
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                            Posted: January 1, 2006, 3:12 pm - IP Logged

                            In regards to the creditability of DrLasVegas it is not documented: 

                             * you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket * 
                               
                                         Evil Looking       

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                              Sparta, NJ
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                              Posted: January 1, 2006, 3:52 pm - IP Logged

                              Do people just make these things up?  Usually a link is provided?

                              Cheers

                              |||::> *'`*:-.,_,.-:*''*:--->>> Chewie  <<<---.*''*:-.,_,.-:*''* <:::|||

                              I only trust myself - and that's a questionable choice