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N.J. woman suing state over lottery tax

Topic closed. 67 replies. Last post 5 years ago by haymaker.

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Littleoldlady's avatar - basket
Clarksville
United States
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July 15, 2002
17638 Posts
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Posted: June 8, 2011, 1:22 am - IP Logged

No, they can't go that far back.  There would be riots in streets.  I think Jan 1 of the year the law is passed is as far as they can go back.

If you know your number is going to hit, have patience and then KILL IT!

You never know when you will get another hit.

    Avatar
    DFW, Texas
    United States
    Member #78628
    August 18, 2009
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    Posted: June 8, 2011, 2:05 am - IP Logged

    No, they can't go that far back.  There would be riots in streets.  I think Jan 1 of the year the law is passed is as far as they can go back.

    Why?  We must question governmental power, otherwise we yield to whatever power it assumes.  If they can pass a law retroactive to the beginning of the current year, then they can pass a law retroactive to the beginning of time.  The fact that an income tax return has not yet been filed is meaningless.  Otherwise, those who wait until April 15 to file a tax return can be subjected to a an income tax increase passed by Congress and made effective on April 14.  Income must be subjected to a level of taxation effective at the time it was acquired, or it must be subject to whatever level of taxation it is subjected to at any future date.  January 1 is not a magical date at which laws not currently in effect can be made to be in effect, unless lawmaking bodies have the power to make any law retroactive to any date, in which case January 1 is still not a limit.

      mjwinsmith's avatar - moon

      United States
      Member #391
      June 8, 2002
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      Posted: June 8, 2011, 9:41 am - IP Logged

      This isn't an ex post facto argument.  The argument here is breach of contract.  Since the STATE operates the lottery AND sets tax law, by passing a retroactive tax on lottery winnings it effectively violated the terms of the contract under which the tickets were sold.  They were sold until June 29 with the understanding that winnings would not be taxable.  In effect, the state made the tickets less valuable after they had been sold.

      I Agree! and I hope this case goes all the way up the chain to the Supreme Court. New Jersey is wrong any way you look at it.

        surimaribo24's avatar - photo11 zpsfffd70be.jpg
        NEW YORK. RIVERHEAD
        United States
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        February 17, 2011
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        Posted: June 8, 2011, 9:43 am - IP Logged

        get those <snip> .tell them that you dont mess with jersey befor snooky smack the crap out of NJLWink. all they do is ripp us off when you winn and even after that they dont leave you alone. hope this case will be succesfull.

        This post has been automatically changed by the Lottery Post computer system to remove inappropriate content and/or spam.

          rdgrnr's avatar - walt
          Way back up in them dadgum hills, son!
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          Posted: June 8, 2011, 9:44 am - IP Logged

          Why?  We must question governmental power, otherwise we yield to whatever power it assumes.  If they can pass a law retroactive to the beginning of the current year, then they can pass a law retroactive to the beginning of time.  The fact that an income tax return has not yet been filed is meaningless.  Otherwise, those who wait until April 15 to file a tax return can be subjected to a an income tax increase passed by Congress and made effective on April 14.  Income must be subjected to a level of taxation effective at the time it was acquired, or it must be subject to whatever level of taxation it is subjected to at any future date.  January 1 is not a magical date at which laws not currently in effect can be made to be in effect, unless lawmaking bodies have the power to make any law retroactive to any date, in which case January 1 is still not a limit.

          I think the interesting part of this is that the people who do these kinds of things to us are our employees - they work for us.

          I think the outrageous part of this is that they keep getting re-hired, thanks mainly to a certain political party that starts with a D.


                                                       
                               
                                                   

           

           

           

           

                                                                                                             

          "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

                                                                                                      --Edmund Burke

           

           

            dpoly1's avatar - driver
            PA
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            October 16, 2008
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            Posted: June 8, 2011, 9:47 am - IP Logged

            No, they can't go that far back.  There would be riots in streets.  I think Jan 1 of the year the law is passed is as far as they can go back.

            I am thinkin' that there may be riots in the streets in the future .........................

            ....................... too many crooks in the Government !

            Stooges Government in action !

              mjwinsmith's avatar - moon

              United States
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              June 8, 2002
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              Posted: June 8, 2011, 9:50 am - IP Logged

              I think the interesting part of this is that the people who do these kinds of things to us are our employees - they work for us.

              I think the outrageous part of this is that they keep getting re-hired, thanks mainly to a certain political party that starts with a D.

              Makes no difference, a D or an R, if they are not doing what "We the People" want they should be voted our of office, period. I totally agree with you that many of these idiots (on both sides) get re-elected time and time again. The sad part of that is that people wonder why nothing changes, dah!

                rdgrnr's avatar - walt
                Way back up in them dadgum hills, son!
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                Posted: June 8, 2011, 10:20 am - IP Logged

                Makes no difference, a D or an R, if they are not doing what "We the People" want they should be voted our of office, period. I totally agree with you that many of these idiots (on both sides) get re-elected time and time again. The sad part of that is that people wonder why nothing changes, dah!

                I think we can agree that the R party has been guilty from time to time over the years but "tax and spend" is the hallmark of the other guys.

                Blaming them both is like frisking Swedish two year olds at the airport just to show that we're not biased. It's pure political correctness.

                Let's be honest, we know who the bad guys are.

                In both cases.


                                                             
                                     
                                                         

                 

                 

                 

                 

                                                                                                                   

                "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

                                                                                                            --Edmund Burke

                 

                 

                  Boney526's avatar - NjlpLogo
                  New Jersey
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                  October 18, 2010
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                  Posted: June 8, 2011, 10:28 am - IP Logged

                  Makes no difference, a D or an R, if they are not doing what "We the People" want they should be voted our of office, period. I totally agree with you that many of these idiots (on both sides) get re-elected time and time again. The sad part of that is that people wonder why nothing changes, dah!

                  The thing is that Republicans do get riled up enough to get their representatives kicked out sometimes.  And the Tea Party (at least a bunch of them) are there actually doing what they said they would.

                   

                  But for the last year and a half, the Democratic plan has been to never touch the budget, let the Republicans do it and call them exetremists when they do.  Out of 4 budget proposalsthat the Senate voted to move forward, the only one made by a Democrat was OBama's and it got 0 votes.  ZERO, not a single Senator voted for it - apparently it was "non-sensical".  All other 3 were proposed by Republicans.

                   

                  The thing is people who support the Democratic party usually say it's both parties equally.  I by no means trust the Republican party, and disagree with lots of Republicans on certain issues.  But as of right now, the Repiblican party has members doing real, good work, while the only democrats doing anything is the "Gang of Six" - a bi-partisan group.  But they haven't released their plan as of yet.

                    dphillips's avatar - littleuns
                    Albuquerque, New Mexico
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                    Posted: June 8, 2011, 6:36 pm - IP Logged

                    Yes, Todd and others, this should be an interesting case to watch.  I lived in New Jersey and back then -- it was cash strapped, before the economy tanked. Oh, yeah, the Federal Government is bitching about it's overblown, bloated deficit, not caused by the taxpayers, but by the Wall Street sellouts -- the fat cats who pocketed the taxpayer's money: surely, the fat cats spent the money on wild women and song, and other mistresses.

                    Okay, Obama, come to the rescue: refund all taxpaying citizens and perhaps you may get re-elected. He's tried other strategies, try this one.

                    See Ya!-- Bye, bye!  When you win, may you glow as brightly as theSun Smiley

                      Avatar
                      NY
                      United States
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                      October 16, 2005
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                      Posted: June 8, 2011, 7:35 pm - IP Logged

                      This has absolutely nothing to do with the constitution, the bill of rights, or general tax law. It's strictly about contract law. The state can very definitely change the income tax law and make the changes retroactive to the beginning of the year, but they can't unilaterally change the terms of a contract they've already entered into with other parties.

                      The legal argument here is that the state entered into a contract with millions of people to sell them lottery tickets based on known odds with known risks and rewards. The rewards were the known after-tax prizes. By trying to tax prizes that were won prior to the enactment of the law the state is unilaterally changing the terms of the contract for all those people who accepted it and risked their money on lottery tickets based on the original terms. That much should be a slam dunk, as contract law is very well settled. I expect that the state will argue that the lottery department is independent of the legislature and the revenue departments, and that the new law therefore doesn't renege on the contract made by the lottery. That may work if the lottery's well advertised inducements to enter into such contracts said that lottery prizes were tax exempt at that time, but I doubt they said that. I'd hope the court will rule that  all state agencies are simply individual parts of the state and that the state as whole has to honor the contract made pursuant to New Jersey law by the lottery department. Failing that, the court should rule that the contracts with the lottery are still in full force, and that the prizes must therefore be augmented in order to offset the taxes paid to other state entities.

                       

                      IRC correctly this law was announced shortly after the workers at Chubb Insurance won a cash prize of about $100 million, representing a potential $10 million in unexpected revenue for the state. I assume this woman was part of that group.

                        rdgrnr's avatar - walt
                        Way back up in them dadgum hills, son!
                        United States
                        Member #73904
                        April 28, 2009
                        14903 Posts
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                        Posted: June 8, 2011, 7:45 pm - IP Logged

                        Yes, Todd and others, this should be an interesting case to watch.  I lived in New Jersey and back then -- it was cash strapped, before the economy tanked. Oh, yeah, the Federal Government is bitching about it's overblown, bloated deficit, not caused by the taxpayers, but by the Wall Street sellouts -- the fat cats who pocketed the taxpayer's money: surely, the fat cats spent the money on wild women and song, and other mistresses.

                        Okay, Obama, come to the rescue: refund all taxpaying citizens and perhaps you may get re-elected. He's tried other strategies, try this one.

                        Wait a minute, let's not get carried away.

                        Wild women and mistresses have saved many a man from a life of despair.

                         

                        Like George Jones sang:

                         

                        I need four walls around me

                        To hold my life

                        To keep me from goin astray

                        And a Honky Tonk Angel

                        To hold me tight

                        To keep me from slippin' away-ay-ay-ayyyyyy


                                                                     
                                             
                                                                 

                         

                         

                         

                         

                                                                                                                           

                        "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

                                                                                                                    --Edmund Burke

                         

                         

                          Puffalishous's avatar - disney20

                          United States
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                          March 10, 2010
                          318 Posts
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                          Posted: June 8, 2011, 8:03 pm - IP Logged

                          Makes no difference, a D or an R, if they are not doing what "We the People" want they should be voted our of office, period. I totally agree with you that many of these idiots (on both sides) get re-elected time and time again. The sad part of that is that people wonder why nothing changes, dah!

                          I agree with you. I don't see why people want to blame just the Democrats. There is alot of blame to  be passed around.  Kick them all out!!!

                            Avatar
                            San Diego, CA
                            United States
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                            February 12, 2008
                            287 Posts
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                            Posted: June 8, 2011, 8:55 pm - IP Logged

                            This isn't an ex post facto argument.  The argument here is breach of contract.  Since the STATE operates the lottery AND sets tax law, by passing a retroactive tax on lottery winnings it effectively violated the terms of the contract under which the tickets were sold.  They were sold until June 29 with the understanding that winnings would not be taxable.  In effect, the state made the tickets less valuable after they had been sold.

                            It seems like an open and shut case to me.

                              Piaceri's avatar - sarsony1
                              Republic of Texas
                              United States
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                              January 9, 2008
                              1095 Posts
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                              Posted: June 8, 2011, 9:15 pm - IP Logged

                              Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table At which he's fed.


                              Tax his tractor, Tax his mule, Teach him taxes Are the rule.

                              Tax his work, Tax his pay, He works for peanuts Anyway!

                              Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat. 

                              Tax his ties, Tax his shirt, Tax his work, Tax his dirt.

                              Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think.

                              Tax his cigars, Tax his beers, If he cries Tax his tears.

                              Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find other ways To tax his ass.

                              Tax all he has Then let him know That you won't be done Till he has no dough.

                              When he screams and hollers; Then tax him some more, Tax him till He's good and sore.


                              Then tax his coffin, Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he's laid.

                              Put these words Upon his tomb, Taxes drove me to my doom...'

                              When he's gone, Do not relax, Its time to apply The inheritance tax.

                              Accounts Receivable Tax
                              Building Permit Tax
                              CDL license Tax
                              Cigarette Tax
                              Corporate Income Tax
                              Dog License Tax
                              Excise Taxes
                              Federal Income Tax
                              Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
                              Fishing License Tax
                              Food License Tax
                              Fuel Permit Tax
                              Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
                              Gross Receipts Tax
                              Hunting License Tax
                              Inheritance Tax
                              Inventory Tax
                              IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
                              Liquor Tax
                              Luxury Taxes
                              Marriage License Tax
                              Medicare Tax
                              Personal Property Tax
                              Property Tax
                              Real Estate Tax
                              Service Charge T ax
                              Social Security Tax
                              Road Usage Tax
                              Sales Tax
                              Recreational Vehicle Tax
                              School Tax
                              State Income Tax
                              State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
                              Telephone Federal Excise Tax
                              Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
                              Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
                              Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
                              Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
                              Telephone State and Local Tax
                              Telephone Usage Charge Tax
                              Utility Taxes
                              Vehicle License Registration Tax
                              Vehicle Sales Tax
                              Watercraft Registration Tax
                              Well Permit Tax

                              Workers Compensation Tax

                              face

                              singlewinnersinglewinnersinglewinner