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NJ casino alleges famous poker player cheated in $9.6M win

Topic closed. 71 replies. Last post 3 years ago by THRIFTY.

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noise-gate's avatar - images q=tbn:ANd9GcR91HDs4UJhjxO7cmeMQWZ5lB_FOcMLOGicau4V74R45tDgPWrr
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Posted: April 13, 2014, 3:45 pm - IP Logged

Right.

The technique gave him an unfair advantage on four occasions between April and October 2012, the casino asserted in its lawsuit.

So one of the top gamblers in the world comes into your house and walks away with a few million profit 4 times in a row on a game and nobody takes notice? Well, I guess on the last time they did take notice, but it was too little too late.

The milk has already been spilt. The horse has left the barn. Sorry.

This raises another question JD- did the house have " defective cards" on hand for  each and every occasion that Ivey showed up to play? That is a stretch, unless an entire batch of defective cards were bought and stored on property for a considerable amount of time with Ivey knowing about it.....another stretch of the imagination!

    noise-gate's avatar - images q=tbn:ANd9GcR91HDs4UJhjxO7cmeMQWZ5lB_FOcMLOGicau4V74R45tDgPWrr
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    Posted: April 13, 2014, 5:47 pm - IP Logged

    The Casino would also be " alleging" that Ivey won by exploiting defective cards- which they supplied.

    Any recent word on them destroying their existing stock of faulty cards? 

    Truck lifting pallet -

      Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg
      Zeta Reticuli Star System
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      Posted: April 13, 2014, 6:06 pm - IP Logged

      Those sentences are in this news story.

      Todd,

      Yes those sentences were in the news story but as I'm sure you're very well aware a lot of people just read headers ot thread titles and go no further yet spout their opinions.

      Also from the story:

      The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in baccarat. The numbers 6, 7, 8 and 9 are considered good cards. Other "bad" cards would be flipped in different directions, so that after several hands of cards, the "good" ones were arranged in a certain manner — with the irregular side of the card facing in a specific direction — that Ivey could spot when they came out of the dealer chute.

      The suit claims Ivey wanted the cards shuffled by an automatic shuffling machine, which would not alter the way each card was aligned.

      OK, players instructing a dealer just doesn't happen - way too much chance for collusion. Dealers have been fired for a lot less.

      Pit: Who you working for dealer, me or this guy? Who issues your paycheck, this guy or the joint?

      _________________________________________________________

      Everyone,

      Seems to be a lof of anti-casino animosity here. We don't have the whole story yet and it could go either way - maybe an out of court partial settlement or maybe a little bit of heat to convonce the player once he's put in the blackbbok he can't play anywhere, or maybe poker only (player against player).

      Also sounds like some of the people demanding "Let him keep the money" are some of the same people that were saying, "Pay the lady" in the article about the woman at the slot machine who never even played a coin.

      Those who run the lotteries love it when players look for consistency in something that's designed not to have any.

      Lep

      There is one and only one 'proven' system, and that is to book the action. No matter the game, let the players pick their own losers.

        Jon D's avatar - calotterylogo
        Los Angeles, California
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        Posted: April 13, 2014, 6:18 pm - IP Logged

        This raises another question JD- did the house have " defective cards" on hand for  each and every occasion that Ivey showed up to play? That is a stretch, unless an entire batch of defective cards were bought and stored on property for a considerable amount of time with Ivey knowing about it.....another stretch of the imagination!

        They weren't necessarily "defective" cards, but had asymmetrical design "features" based on manufacturing variances. Apparently, this is not uncommon and cards like this are in wide use in casinos. Phil also cleverly requested specific decks of Gemaco purple cards, perhaps knowing those had more likelihood of the "feature" or maybe just to sell the superstitious line.

        And the player advantage wouldn't have happened if the cards weren't selectively rotated (by the dealer) anyway, that was the key. And even in other games where players handle the cards and flip them themselves, this advantage is nullified if the dealer takes half the cards and rotates 180 prior to the shuffle.

        So it's a casino procedural flaw more than anything.

          Jon D's avatar - calotterylogo
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          Posted: April 13, 2014, 6:23 pm - IP Logged

          Todd,

          Yes those sentences were in the news story but as I'm sure you're very well aware a lot of people just read headers ot thread titles and go no further yet spout their opinions.

          Also from the story:

          The lawsuit claims that Ivey and his companion instructed a dealer to flip cards in particular ways, depending on whether it was a desirable card in baccarat. The numbers 6, 7, 8 and 9 are considered good cards. Other "bad" cards would be flipped in different directions, so that after several hands of cards, the "good" ones were arranged in a certain manner — with the irregular side of the card facing in a specific direction — that Ivey could spot when they came out of the dealer chute.

          The suit claims Ivey wanted the cards shuffled by an automatic shuffling machine, which would not alter the way each card was aligned.

          OK, players instructing a dealer just doesn't happen - way too much chance for collusion. Dealers have been fired for a lot less.

          Pit: Who you working for dealer, me or this guy? Who issues your paycheck, this guy or the joint?

          _________________________________________________________

          Everyone,

          Seems to be a lof of anti-casino animosity here. We don't have the whole story yet and it could go either way - maybe an out of court partial settlement or maybe a little bit of heat to convonce the player once he's put in the blackbbok he can't play anywhere, or maybe poker only (player against player).

          Also sounds like some of the people demanding "Let him keep the money" are some of the same people that were saying, "Pay the lady" in the article about the woman at the slot machine who never even played a coin.

          Don't count me in with that. I don't remember even commenting on that slot machine story, that is silly, just a machine malfunction. Can't expect payout from that.

          This story is advantage play like card counting, which casinos have *tried* to sue players in the past, and failed. But this case is borderline with some other elements, so time will tell. From looking at the details provided so far, does not appear to be cheating per se.

          And remember, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law! Wink

            noise-gate's avatar - images q=tbn:ANd9GcR91HDs4UJhjxO7cmeMQWZ5lB_FOcMLOGicau4V74R45tDgPWrr
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            Posted: April 13, 2014, 6:44 pm - IP Logged

            They weren't necessarily "defective" cards, but had asymmetrical design "features" based on manufacturing variances. Apparently, this is not uncommon and cards like this are in wide use in casinos. Phil also cleverly requested specific decks of Gemaco purple cards, perhaps knowing those had more likelihood of the "feature" or maybe just to sell the superstitious line.

            And the player advantage wouldn't have happened if the cards weren't selectively rotated (by the dealer) anyway, that was the key. And even in other games where players handle the cards and flip them themselves, this advantage is nullified if the dealer takes half the cards and rotates 180 prior to the shuffle.

            So it's a casino procedural flaw more than anything.

            The Post says...

            "The suit claims the cards, manufactured by Gemaco Inc., and used in the baccarat games were defective in that the pattern on the back of them was not uniform. The cards have rows of small white circles designed to look like the tops of cut diamonds, but the Borgata claims some of them were only a half diamond or a quarter of one."

             Just quoting from the source Ol Chap..

              Jon D's avatar - calotterylogo
              Los Angeles, California
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              Posted: April 13, 2014, 6:48 pm - IP Logged

              The Post says...

              "The suit claims the cards, manufactured by Gemaco Inc., and used in the baccarat games were defective in that the pattern on the back of them was not uniform. The cards have rows of small white circles designed to look like the tops of cut diamonds, but the Borgata claims some of them were only a half diamond or a quarter of one."

               Just quoting from the source Ol Chap..

              Yeah, I know. But remember that's the lawyer for the plaintiff/casino using that word in the lawsuit for dramatic effect, get it? Wink

              This will be an interesting court battle, can't wait to see it.

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                Posted: April 13, 2014, 9:30 pm - IP Logged

                Don't count me in with that. I don't remember even commenting on that slot machine story, that is silly, just a machine malfunction. Can't expect payout from that.

                This story is advantage play like card counting, which casinos have *tried* to sue players in the past, and failed. But this case is borderline with some other elements, so time will tell. From looking at the details provided so far, does not appear to be cheating per se.

                And remember, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law! Wink

                "From looking at the details provided so far, does not appear to be cheating per se."

                It was more like a sting and easy to do because beginning in 2008, the AC casinos wanted any high roller action and to get it, changed some of the playing rules at the player's request. Don Johnson won over $5 million playing blackjack at Borgata after negotiating what appeared to be minor changes in the rules that actually gave him a mathematical edge.

                The design on the back of the cards along with dealing the cards face down created a slight advantage that Ivey and Cheng Yin Sun exploited. From what I've read, the key was asking for a Chinese speaking dealer, Ivey and Cheng were out $800,000, and Cheng asked for the cards to be dealt face down saying she was superstitious. The casino allowed the request and Ivey and Cheng began edge sorting the cards.

                It looks like the Borgata is saying they gave Ivey and Cheng the OK to cheat but didn't think they would do it?

                  Jon D's avatar - calotterylogo
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                  Posted: April 14, 2014, 9:46 am - IP Logged

                  "From looking at the details provided so far, does not appear to be cheating per se."

                  It was more like a sting and easy to do because beginning in 2008, the AC casinos wanted any high roller action and to get it, changed some of the playing rules at the player's request. Don Johnson won over $5 million playing blackjack at Borgata after negotiating what appeared to be minor changes in the rules that actually gave him a mathematical edge.

                  The design on the back of the cards along with dealing the cards face down created a slight advantage that Ivey and Cheng Yin Sun exploited. From what I've read, the key was asking for a Chinese speaking dealer, Ivey and Cheng were out $800,000, and Cheng asked for the cards to be dealt face down saying she was superstitious. The casino allowed the request and Ivey and Cheng began edge sorting the cards.

                  It looks like the Borgata is saying they gave Ivey and Cheng the OK to cheat but didn't think they would do it?

                  The dealing of cards face down is normal in baccarat. The key was interrupting the dealer's normal rigid flow of card handling to achieve desired edge sorting result.

                  I like playing baccarat, but I find the tradition of "peeking" at the cards to be so silly. Especially among asian players, where tradition and superstition are very important, baccarat is extremely popular. What they do is "squeeze" and bend up the edges of the cards to take a peek at it very slowly from all 4 sides to build the suspense. Again, I find this TOTALLY SILLY, as nothing you do is going to change the card's value once dealt. But I admit, I will do it too (when in Rome...) if there are lots of players around squeezing it, expecting you to do the same. It's all good. Smile

                  So in this case and others, players aren't allowed to touch/handle cards. I've played in both kinds of games. So they ask the dealer to slowly reveal the card. This is not unusual. One report did indicate this, that they wanted the dealer to lift the side of the card so Phil could peek at it.

                  Now I'm assuming that if it had the desired value and the undesired orientation, he had the dealer continue to flip it. This is F'ing genius! The dealer just thinks she's doing normal suspense building and will comply, because it has no effect on the outcome of the play. Why not? But in the process, the normal flow of card handling is interrupted, and some cards get automagically re-oriented 180 degrees. And Phil never even touched the cards! Wow.

                    RedStang's avatar - tallman zps6gf4inoc.jpg
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                    Posted: April 14, 2014, 11:10 pm - IP Logged

                    Foxwoods casino accused me of cheating when i won a million playing Rock-paper-scissors. They tried to arrest me, but i hid over in the penny slots with the ladies.

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                      Posted: April 15, 2014, 6:15 pm - IP Logged

                      Foxwoods casino accused me of cheating when i won a million playing Rock-paper-scissors. They tried to arrest me, but i hid over in the penny slots with the ladies.

                      I thought that all slot machines were expensive.

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                      PLAY THE LOTTERY SOMEDAY-IT IS OKAY TO DREAM!

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                        Posted: April 15, 2014, 6:18 pm - IP Logged

                        I want to be the Tiger Woods of "knocking over the cheesy poofs".

                        Gambling and cheating do not mix.

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                        PLAY THE LOTTERY SOMEDAY-IT IS OKAY TO DREAM!