That's how Ken Seidel and a few St. Louis-area buddies seized the opportunity to make a Missouri Lottery game a nearly sure thing.
The numbers the lottery drew in Thursday's midday Pick 3 game were 4-5-2 in the regular drawing and 1-4-4 in a bonus drawing that Seidel says guaranteed him a 20 percent return on the $23,000 of chances he and his friends bought, at $1 a pop.
That's an easy $4,600 profit.
The daily Pick 3 drawing allows players to choose three numbers from 0-0-0 to 9-9-9, with each winning ticket worth $600.
Seidel's payout was the result of a four-week lottery promotion that made a second drawing possible. One of seven balls six white, one orange is drawn each day, until the orange ball is selected. But if all the white balls have been pulled, a guaranteed double-draw is in the works, because only the orange remains.
Thus, someone who spent $1,000 to cover all possible winning numbers would win $600 on the first drawing and $600 on the second drawing.
There's usually no guarantee the orange ball will be drawn on a particular day, but over the previous week, the white balls had been plucked out one by one. Early Wednesday afternoon, the last white ball was drawn, leaving just the orange ball for Thursday.
I knew the orange ball would have to come up, so I went to work, Seidel said.
He called some friends and tried to enlist the help of a few co-workers and others.
Overnight, they filled out thousands of entries with every possible winning number from 0-0-0 to 9-9-9.
They did it over and over until Seidel and his three friends had put $23,000 into his plan. They bought their last ticket about a minute and a half before the cutoff.
The downside to the group's scheme is that lottery wins of $600 or more have to be claimed at a lottery office and are subject to taxation. The 20% profit may turn out to be a loss unless the group can demonstrate that by year-end, they lost more than they won.
thats pretty lame...i didn't know it cost that much to play all combo's....thats a cop-out strategy if u ask me....i'd understand though if they won more then the 1,000 bucks the spend, just goes to show that lottery administrators think about those types of things
hi there ben thanks for the advice earlier i played all my numbers in georgia midday came in good with the 000 for 50 cents thanks again needed it badly
Are you serious ? This guy has the smartest brains of any lottery player out there. He played WHEN THE ODDS WERE IN HIS FAVOR. What a novel concept! To bash a guy for making a sure 20% on his money playing a game that only pays back 60% is ludicrous. States offer this promotion all the time and I bet you could go from state to state doing this, but you wouild have to find it in the states that pay 600 per winner oppossed to 500. To say this is acop out is the dumbest thing ever. The guy guarenteed a profit for himself, how many lottery players can say that??
Ohio has the Red Ball promotion going on for its Pick3 game, but it doesn't pay double and a straight only pays $500 on a dollar bet. Missouri must really want people to try their Pick3 game.
Check this out, the guy who thinks he beat the system really lost money!
Let's just take one of his $1,000 bets. Keep in mind that he did it 23 times (to reach the $23,000 figure indicated in the article).
He bets $1,000 for all 1,000 combinations. Then he wins $600 twice, for a total of $1,200, or $200 profit. Or so he thinks.
But because each winning ticket is worth $600, he must redeem them at lottery headquarters, whereupon they will hold back 25% federal tax, plus 4% Missouri state tax. That amounts to $348 in taxes.
Hence, his $1,200 winnings are quickly reduced to $852. So he spent $1,000 to "win" $852, resulting in a $148 net loss.
Multiply that loss by 23 times, and the group lost a total of $3,404.
Now, maybe this is all moot. He would have saved himself big-time if he played .50 bets per betslip, whereupon each winning ticket would be $300, and could be redeemed at a lottery retailer. However, the article didn't imply this.
Quote:Originally posted by Todd on August 09, 2004
Now, maybe this is all moot. He would have saved himself big-time if he played .50 bets per betslip, whereupon each winning ticket would be $300, and could be redeemed at a lottery retailer. However, the article didn't imply this.
It would not matter if enough people knew about it that a news article was written about it. One of the rules of cheating on your taxes is to not talk publicly about it. Same rule applies if you also find a way to make money playing the lotteries.
In Illinois everything through 600 dollars cvan be claimed at a retailer with no need to go to Lottery Office. 601 and higher you go to fill out a claim form. I know its the smae in Iowa too so I figure its the same in Mizzou. If not I stand corrected.
But put it this way I am sure the guy made money or the article would have never been written in first place.
And I am sure the guy wouldnt go through all the hassle if he wasnt gonna make the 20% profit.
Quote:Originally posted by qutgnt on August 09, 2004
In Illinois everything through 600 dollars cvan be claimed at a retailer with no need to go to Lottery Office. 601 and higher you go to fill out a claim form. I know its the smae in Iowa too so I figure its the same in Mizzou. If not I stand corrected.
But put it this way I am sure the guy made money or the article would have never been written in first place.
And I am sure the guy wouldnt go through all the hassle if he wasnt gonna make the 20% profit.
I checked the Missouri web site before I posted the first reply to the news story. Prizes of $599 or less can be claimed at a store, $600 and above at the lottery office.
The scheme still has value if they can claim losses in excess of the win and not have to pay tax. Their expenses (losses) were $23,000. That is a good start. They just need another $4,000 in losses to claim to cover the rest.
My 1st thought - was why am I reading this in the newspaper. Althought I did win that day, I did not think to that extreme to cover all the possible combos (money not that long).
2nd thought - was since I can to any retailer and get $600( says on the back of the playslip prizes up to and including $600 paid at any on-line retailer) why would I go one single store like Dierbergs' to get my money. thousands though it maybe {4 days later I would still be collecting}
3rd thought - the point was to out wit the lottery, why tell them what I did, so they can get smart and not let it happen again ( an orange ball was drawn 2 days later, when it took 7 the previous time) hummmm How soon before the next orange ball shows?
You can bet on this winner --- we will not be able to know of a sure win again, like we did on this one. And all be because he had to tell.
In every state, it's $599 and less that can be claimed at a store. In all states, prizes $600 or greater must be claimed at a lottery center. It has something to do with federal reporting requirements. Althought they don't withhold federal taxes until it gets to $5000 or more, I believe they report all wins $600 and greater to the IRS.
Bottom line is that you cannot claim a $600 prize at a store. If you feel that statement is incorrect, please point me to the government Web site (or other official site) that states differently.
It seems Missouri lottery has contradicted itself. On the website it says the following about claiming prizes:
Claims $599 And Under
Missouri Lottery retailers may be able to redeem prizes up to $599 (pending the store's cash balances for that day). You can also claim your prize in person at any of the Lottery's color=#0000ffoffice locations.
Claims $600 And Above
Prizes from $600 to $25,000 can be paid the same day of the claim at any Lottery color=#0000ffoffice, but it takes approximately two weeks to redeem prizes more than $25,000. For any prize of $600 and above, you must submit an official Missouri Lottery winner color=#0000ffclaim form with your winning ticket. It is also your responsibility to complete color=#0000ffIRS Form W-9 - Request for Taxpayer Identification Number and Certification. This form is required for any taxable winnings of $600 or more.
1) Claim winning tickets up to and including $600 at any on-line retailer location.
2) Claim winning tickets over $600 at missouri lottery redemption centers or mail you ticket with a completed claim form. A claim form must accompany winning tickets over $600.
Makes you wonder which is true. Since I haven't won $600 at one time I don't know.
I'm sure the Lottery officials have undercover operatives that have this forum under surveilance! So I bet if this is true, they will get rid of this loophole real fast! I cant believe anybody would be so stupid as to tell the newspaper about his secret. What a fool, he ruined it for himself and everybody else! And the same thing will happen if anybody else on these forums has a real system and they post it on this website and tell the world about it! His ego was so big he wanted to show off to the world how he beat the lottery. The lottery will change the games and make them more difficult to win! Because most people who play are so addicted they will play no matter how hard the odds are.
Quote:Originally posted by Joy2 on August 09, 2004
I'm sure the Lottery officials have undercover operatives that have this forum under surveilance! So I bet if this is true, they will get rid of this loophole real fast! I cant believe anybody would be so stupid as to tell the newspaper about his secret. What a fool, he ruined it for himself and everybody else! And the same thing will happen if anybody else on these forums has a real system and they post it on this website and tell the world about it! His ego was so big he wanted to show off to the world how he beat the lottery. The lottery will change the games and make them more difficult to win! Because most people who play are so addicted they will play no matter how hard the odds are.
I agree..I think many states are changing to computer generated picks rather then balls to make sure they are always going to win..I think lottery post is great, but sometimes I think its best to play a number not predicted on the board!
Winners of prizes of $600 or less can collect directly from any Lottery retailer. If you've won more (and wouldn't that be nice) you are required to fill out acolor=#0000ffclaim form. The color=#0000ffclaim form can be filed with any retailer or mailed to the Illinois Lottery in Springfield. You'll receive a check within four to six weeks. Of course, we recommend winners of large prizes to mail their color=#0000ffclaim forms via guaranteed mail -- that form is worth a lot, you know. The Lottery operates seven regional color=#0000ffCheck Writing CentersReminder! When you visit a Check Writing Center to file a claim, you need to bring a photo IDAND some means of verifying your Social Security Number
Roy, I didn't post that day at all. I don't always have the time to post. If you look my postings are very sporadic. That is the only time I have played midday. And it was only because I knew their would be two drawings for midday. And it worked out for me.
Todd, I'll try to have more info tomorrow. Then we won't have to guess what is right and wrong...
In Ky it is 600.00. If u win more than that on 1 ticket, you WILL pay federal taxes on the win. I know because we had to pay Federal taxes on $1200.00 because my husband played a number $2.00 straight. However, u do get to subtract your losses.
Hey, I've been visiting the site for awhile, finally joined so I can respond on this. The article in the St. Louis Post- Dispatch has a photo showing the store director congratulating the guy with two of his friends in the background and the caption saying he picked up more than $16,000 cash at the store. You can read it and see the photo at the Post-Dispatch web site (www.stltoday.com) . I'm new at this so I have no clue on how to make a link. The story ran on Saturday Aug. 7 so click on story search, keyword type in lottery, for that date. The guy showed up at the store Thursday to collect and was told the store didn't have the money, so after calls to the lottery and the Dierberg's main office they arranged for a special delivery from the bank on Friday when this guy shows up with his friends and the reporter. The lottery even has a claims office about a mile from this store, and the article doesn't say where he collected the rest from.
Even if he managed to not get any taxes withheld, he did put his name and face on the only daily paper in the largest city in Missouri, so anybody from the state department of revenue or the IRS could probably find him. I just looked and there's a Ken Seidel in SBC's white pages. I just wonder if he was dumb enough to claim all the tickets himself or the friends did it equally.
You are incorrect about the $600 rule. According to IRS regulations, a W2G has to be provided to the player (and filed with the IRS by the issuer) when the threshold of $600 minus the wager amount is reached. (see http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=99609,00.html) Since to win the $600 prize, you have to have wagered $1, your net proceeds are $599 and thus do not need to be reported to the IRS. Automatic witholding is required at a net threshold of $5000.
However, all of this is actually a moot point because, according to IRS regulations (see http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html) all gambling income must be reported on your taxes and is taxable. And, unless you itemize, you can't deduct your losses. You just don't receive a W2G unless you win $601 or more.
Virginia allows players to cash tickets up to and including $600 at any online lottery retailer. Tickets $601 and greater must be cashed at a regional office. (as the text below from the VA Lottery web site shows)
Well, it took forever and a day (been very busy) but I finally found out that you can cash a $600 dollar winner at the store in MO without filling out any paper work. I had one of the local lottery agents call the lottery office to confirm. At least, that was a relief. To bad they totally destroyed the rest of the game. The number 6 has not been drawn even once in the first position in all 30 drawings of the computerized numbers in the eve. I wait to see how long it takes to come in (if at all).
The downside to the group's scheme is that lottery wins of $600 or more have to be claimed at a lottery office and are subject to taxation. The 20% profit may turn out to be a loss unless the group can demonstrate that by year-end, they lost more than they won.
Good luck,
Jake
Just take single tickets to different stores to get around that problem.
thats pretty lame...i didn't know it cost that much to play all combo's....thats a cop-out strategy if u ask me....i'd understand though if they won more then the 1,000 bucks the spend, just goes to show that lottery administrators think about those types of things
hi there ben thanks for the advice earlier i played all my numbers in georgia midday came in good with the 000 for 50 cents thanks again needed it badly
Are you serious ? This guy has the smartest brains of any lottery player out there. He played WHEN THE ODDS WERE IN HIS FAVOR. What a novel concept! To bash a guy for making a sure 20% on his money playing a game that only pays back 60% is ludicrous. States offer this promotion all the time and I bet you could go from state to state doing this, but you wouild have to find it in the states that pay 600 per winner oppossed to 500. To say this is acop out is the dumbest thing ever. The guy guarenteed a profit for himself, how many lottery players can say that??
That would not work because a single winning ticket pays $600 and the stores are only allowed to redeem up to $599.
Good luck,
Jake
Ohio has the Red Ball promotion going on for its Pick3 game, but it doesn't pay double and a straight only pays $500 on a dollar bet. Missouri must really want people to try their Pick3 game.
RJOh
Check this out, the guy who thinks he beat the system really lost money!
Let's just take one of his $1,000 bets. Keep in mind that he did it 23 times (to reach the $23,000 figure indicated in the article).
He bets $1,000 for all 1,000 combinations. Then he wins $600 twice, for a total of $1,200, or $200 profit. Or so he thinks.
But because each winning ticket is worth $600, he must redeem them at lottery headquarters, whereupon they will hold back 25% federal tax, plus 4% Missouri state tax. That amounts to $348 in taxes.
Hence, his $1,200 winnings are quickly reduced to $852. So he spent $1,000 to "win" $852, resulting in a $148 net loss.
Multiply that loss by 23 times, and the group lost a total of $3,404.
Now, maybe this is all moot. He would have saved himself big-time if he played .50 bets per betslip, whereupon each winning ticket would be $300, and could be redeemed at a lottery retailer. However, the article didn't imply this.
Todd:
Federal withholding begins above $5000, not at $600.
In Illinois everything through 600 dollars cvan be claimed at a retailer with no need to go to Lottery Office. 601 and higher you go to fill out a claim form. I know its the smae in Iowa too so I figure its the same in Mizzou. If not I stand corrected.
But put it this way I am sure the guy made money or the article would have never been written in first place.
And I am sure the guy wouldnt go through all the hassle if he wasnt gonna make the 20% profit.
I checked the Missouri web site before I posted the first reply to the news story. Prizes of $599 or less can be claimed at a store, $600 and above at the lottery office.
The scheme still has value if they can claim losses in excess of the win and not have to pay tax. Their expenses (losses) were $23,000. That is a good start. They just need another $4,000 in losses to claim to cover the rest.
Good luck,
Jake
My 1st thought - was why am I reading this in the newspaper. Althought I did win that day, I did not think to that extreme to cover all the possible combos (money not that long).
2nd thought - was since I can to any retailer and get $600( says on the back of the playslip prizes up to and including $600 paid at any on-line retailer) why would I go one single store like Dierbergs' to get my money. thousands though it maybe {4 days later I would still be collecting}
3rd thought - the point was to out wit the lottery, why tell them what I did, so they can get smart and not let it happen again ( an orange ball was drawn 2 days later, when it took 7 the previous time) hummmm How soon before the next orange ball shows?
You can bet on this winner --- we will not be able to know of a sure win again, like we did on this one. And all be because he had to tell.
In every state, it's $599 and less that can be claimed at a store. In all states, prizes $600 or greater must be claimed at a lottery center. It has something to do with federal reporting requirements. Althought they don't withhold federal taxes until it gets to $5000 or more, I believe they report all wins $600 and greater to the IRS.
Bottom line is that you cannot claim a $600 prize at a store. If you feel that statement is incorrect, please point me to the government Web site (or other official site) that states differently.
Todd,
It seems Missouri lottery has contradicted itself. On the website it says the following about claiming prizes:
Claims $599 And Under
Missouri Lottery retailers may be able to redeem prizes up to $599 (pending the store's cash balances for that day). You can also claim your prize in person at any of the Lottery's color=#0000ffoffice locations.
Claims $600 And Above
Prizes from $600 to $25,000 can be paid the same day of the claim at any Lottery color=#0000ffoffice, but it takes approximately two weeks to redeem prizes more than $25,000. For any prize of $600 and above, you must submit an official Missouri Lottery winner color=#0000ffclaim form with your winning ticket. It is also your responsibility to complete color=#0000ffIRS Form W-9 - Request for Taxpayer Identification Number and Certification. This form is required for any taxable winnings of $600 or more.
Claim Prizes By Mail
Any Lottery prize may be claimed by mail. Your name, address, telephone number and signature must be on the back of the ticket. If the prize is $600 or more, be sure to include the color=#0000ffclaim form. In addition to the claim form, it is your responsibility to complete color=#0000ffIRS Form W-9 - Request for Taxpayer Identification Number and Certification for any taxable winnings $600 and above.
When on the back of the pick 3 slip it says:
How to claim your prize
1) Claim winning tickets up to and including $600 at any on-line retailer location.
2) Claim winning tickets over $600 at missouri lottery redemption centers or mail you ticket with a completed claim form. A claim form must accompany winning tickets over $600.
Makes you wonder which is true. Since I haven't won $600 at one time I don't know.
I'm sure the Lottery officials have undercover operatives that have this forum under surveilance! So I bet if this is true, they will get rid of this loophole real fast! I cant believe anybody would be so stupid as to tell the newspaper about his secret. What a fool, he ruined it for himself and everybody else! And the same thing will happen if anybody else on these forums has a real system and they post it on this website and tell the world about it! His ego was so big he wanted to show off to the world how he beat the lottery. The lottery will change the games and make them more difficult to win! Because most people who play are so addicted they will play no matter how hard the odds are.
Best Picks,
The Web site is correct. It sounds like a misprint on the betslip, if that's what it says. The $600 rule is something that all states follow.
Oneday,
If that were true, I wouldn't have won so many times with Lucky's picks!
Hey Todd, I just had a thou
How do I claim my prize?
Winners of prizes of $600 or less can collect directly from any Lottery retailer. If you've won more (and wouldn't that be nice) you are required to fill out a
color=#0000ffclaim form. The color=#0000ffclaim form can be filed with any retailer or mailed to the Illinois Lottery in Springfield. You'll receive a check within four to six weeks. Of course, we recommend winners of large prizes to mail their color=#0000ffclaim forms via guaranteed mail -- that form is worth a lot, you know. The Lottery operates seven regional color=#0000ffCheck Writing Centers Reminder! When you visit a Check Writing Center to file a claim, you need to bring a photo ID AND some means of verifying your Social Security Number
Last week I ask one of
Who wants to write to the lotteries to see if that's correct?
Roy, I didn't post that day at all. I don't always have the time to post. If you look my postings are very sporadic. That is the only time I have played midday. And it was only because I knew their would be two drawings for midday. And it worked out for me.
Todd, I'll try to have more info tomorrow. Then we won't have to guess what is right and wrong...
In Ky it is 600.00. If u win more than that on 1 ticket, you WILL pay federal taxes on the win. I know because we had to pay Federal taxes on $1200.00 because my husband played a number $2.00 straight. However, u do get to subtract your losses.
Hey, I've been visiting the site for awhile, finally joined so I can respond on this. The article in the St. Louis Post- Dispatch has a photo showing the store director congratulating the guy with two of his friends in the background and the caption saying he picked up more than $16,000 cash at the store. You can read it and see the photo at the Post-Dispatch web site (www.stltoday.com) . I'm new at this so I have no clue on how to make a link. The story ran on Saturday Aug. 7 so click on story search, keyword type in lottery, for that date. The guy showed up at the store Thursday to collect and was told the store didn't have the money, so after calls to the lottery and the Dierberg's main office they arranged for a special delivery from the bank on Friday when this guy shows up with his friends and the reporter. The lottery even has a claims office about a mile from this store, and the article doesn't say where he collected the rest from.
Even if he managed to not get any taxes withheld, he did put his name and face on the only daily paper in the largest city in Missouri, so anybody from the state department of revenue or the IRS could probably find him. I just looked and there's a Ken Seidel in SBC's white pages. I just wonder if he was dumb enough to claim all the tickets himself or the friends did it equally.
I wrote to Mary Nubauer of the Iowa Lottery a few weeks ago and she said you can cash a 600 dollar winner at the store without filling the forms.
Will someone try to buy up all the combinations in a lotto game again (pick-5)?
Todd,
You are incorrect about the $600 rule. According to IRS regulations, a W2G has to be provided to the player (and filed with the IRS by the issuer) when the threshold of $600 minus the wager amount is reached. (see http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=99609,00.html) Since to win the $600 prize, you have to have wagered $1, your net proceeds are $599 and thus do not need to be reported to the IRS. Automatic witholding is required at a net threshold of $5000.
However, all of this is actually a moot point because, according to IRS regulations (see http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html) all gambling income must be reported on your taxes and is taxable. And, unless you itemize, you can't deduct your losses. You just don't receive a W2G unless you win $601 or more.
Virginia allows players to cash tickets up to and including $600 at any online lottery retailer. Tickets $601 and greater must be cashed at a regional office. (as the text below from the VA Lottery web site shows)
"Winning tickets up to and including $600 can be validated and paid at participating Virginia Lottery retail locations. Winning tickets $601or greater must be claimed by mail or at a Virginia Lottery Office. color=#0000ffClick here for a listing of Virginia Lottery office locations." http://www.valottery.com/faq/kb_detail.asp?type=category&category=1&id=71
Todd-you should know better.
Well, it took forever and a day (been very busy) but I finally found out that you can cash a $600 dollar winner at the store in MO without filling out any paper work. I had one of the local lottery agents call the lottery office to confirm. At least, that was a relief. To bad they totally destroyed the rest of the game. The number 6 has not been drawn even once in the first position in all 30 drawings of the computerized numbers in the eve. I wait to see how long it takes to come in (if at all).
Later,
Bryan :)
IIRC Arizona didn't have 9 come out in its Pick-3 when it went computerized.