LANDMARK: Could we be seeing the beginning of the end of computerized lottery drawings?
Lottery Post sincerely hopes so, and hopefully we have had a part to play in the genesis of this important bill. We encourage all of our readers to support this bill, and identify it throughout the United States as a model for every state to follow.
A bipartisan duo of lawmakers said Wednesday they intend to push a bill to require the Delaware state lottery to abandon a computer that picks winning lottery numbers.
House Majority Leader Wayne A. Smith, R-Clair Manor, and Sen. Nancy W. Cook, D-Kenton, also want the drawings to be televised live. They said confidence in the lottery has suffered since the computer replaced a mechanical ball-drawing system and the live airing of drawings was dropped.
Since 1996, the lottery has replaced the mechanical apparatus and assigned all lottery drawings to the computer. The live TV broadcasts, which cost about $400,000 a year, were abandoned in June 2002 because, lottery officials said, only 7 percent of lottery players watched them on any given night.
"The lack of a live drawing is creating a public confidence issue with some of my constituents ... who want to witness a mechanical drawing system with their own eyes," Smith said.
Nobody has won a Delaware Lotto jackpot since February of last year, allowing the top prize to grow to a record $7.2 million as of Wednesday night's drawing. According to Smith and Cook, that lag has heightened concerns among constituents.
"The lack of confidence could be a financial issue for the state," Smith said of the lottery, which contributed $220 million to the state's general fund during the fiscal year that ended June 30.
Smith said he didn't question the integrity of lottery director Wayne Lemons and his staff, but that the state cannot afford to chase away lottery players.
On Wednesday, Lemons acknowledged persistent complaints from lottery players about the computer-selected numbers and the lack of a televised drawing. But he said he had no plans to go back to the old system. He said 15 of the 42 states that operate lotteries use computers to draw winning numbers for at least one of their games.
Lottery Post urges all of our readers to sign the important Petition for True Lottery Drawings to show your support of this important measure. Make your voice heard!
PLEASE sign the petition and contact your state lottery regarding this crucial issue. All you have to tell them in your e-mail is that you will discontinue playing the game if they decide to take this approach. Money (revenue) talks. I'm glad to see that at least one state recognizes the loss of revenue resulting from secret computer draws held in closets with state programmed computers.
This can be used in any state: contact your representatives, and let them know that other legislators in other states feel the same way.
Lottery games are nothing but money to a state, and if that money is threatened the will act. Let them know that players don't like computerized drawings, and will play less if they don't bring back mechanical draw machines.
I love the fact that one of the sponsors of the Delaware bill is the House Majority Leader.
Just copied that article along with a copy-and-past link to Lottery Post Petiton, sent it out in email to all my friends again asking them to please sign, please forward.
If everyone here does the same our voices will be heard loud and clear.
Good idea Konane. Time to go on the offense with zeal....I've bought a lot of drinks for my buddies after a win and I will tap them to support this issue.
Quote:Originally posted by konane on January 20, 2005
Just copied that article along with a copy-and-past link to Lottery Post Petiton, sent it out in email to all my friends again asking them to please sign, please forward.
If everyone here does the same our voices will be heard loud and clear.
Konane,
That's an excellent idea! I'd also recommend sending that to your state and federal representatives as well.
Todd I wouldn't mind doing that however I would like the source of the information in that article. I have checked the Delaware lottery's website and did not find it on their site. Can you post a link as to the source or PM it to me.
Quote:Originally posted by four4me on January 20, 2005
Todd I wouldn't mind doing that however I would like the source of the information in that article. I have checked the Delaware lottery's website and did not find it on their site. Can you post a link as to the source or PM it to me.
Quote:Originally posted by four4me on January 20, 2005
Todd I wouldn't mind doing that however I would like the source of the information in that article. I have checked the Delaware lottery's website and did not find it on their site. Can you post a link as to the source or PM it to me.
Of course the Delaware Lottery web site would not show this information - they are against it!! (See the sentence at the end by the DE lottery director.)
Thanks Konane that link was what I was looking for.
Sorry for the misunderstanding Todd. When I saw the Delaware logo with that post I assumed it was from their site. Not realizing that, I wondered were you found the article. So I surfed Delaware site. I realized rather quickly that it wasn't something they would post. I didn't have time to do and Internet search for the article. I had several errands to run. Konane has posted what I was asking for. If I were to forward it I would like to send the original Document along with the post. Usually when I post something I find from off site I post the source of the item that way people can find and read the article if they wish. Thanks for posting the item I'm glad that some lawmakers are now involved in our effort to get things back to the way they were.
Quote:Originally posted by CASH Only on January 20, 2005
I would approve of a ban on computerized draws...although it would endanger keno.
This is what you wrote: although it would endanger keno.
This article Todd posted has nothing to do with keno games in any state it's about pick 3/4 and other games that have gone computerized. I am only commenting about your statement because i don't know where you get the idea that it involves keno.
Quote:Originally posted by four4me on January 20, 2005
Thanks Konane that link was what I was looking for.
Sorry for the misunderstanding Todd. When I saw the Delaware logo with that post I assumed it was from their site. Not realizing that, I wondered were you found the article. So I surfed Delaware site. I realized rather quickly that it wasn't something they would post. I didn't have time to do and Internet search for the article. I had several errands to run. Konane has posted what I was asking for. If I were to forward it I would like to send the original Document along with the post. Usually when I post something I find from off site I post the source of the item that way people can find and read the article if they wish. Thanks for posting the item I'm glad that some lawmakers are now involved in our effort to get things back to the way they were.
Cash Only this has nothing to do with keno!
I always tag each article with the logo of the state lottery so that people can easily identify the article content. I wanted to be sure you saw that the Delaware Lottery Driector is firmly against the measure. Can you believe the audacity of a Lottery Director who says that they get tons of complaint letters from the players, but they're still going to do the computerized drawings anyway?? Just goes to show what his priorities are.
Quote:Originally posted by Todd on January 20, 2005
Can you believe the audacity of a Lottery Director who says that they get tons of complaint letters from the players, but they're still going to do the computerized drawings anyway?? Just goes to show what his priorities are.
Right on Chief! They advertise that it's a game, but hide behind the business.
i sent a nice, long e-mail to the PA lottery about how they can easily cut costs by video-taping the mid-day drawings and uploading them to the website instead of televising them. that way, they need not pay money to TV stations to broadcast them, but they still have live, authentic, vidoe-taped drawings, but the players can view the draw on the website instead of the TV. the sales would go up, and the lottery still wouldn't pay as much as they would for televising the drawings.
Quote:Originally posted by DoctorEw220 on January 21, 2005
i sent a nice, long e-mail to the PA lottery about how they can easily cut costs by video-taping the mid-day drawings and uploading them to the website instead of televising them. that way, they need not pay money to TV stations to broadcast them, but they still have live, authentic, vidoe-taped drawings, but the players can view the draw on the website instead of the TV. the sales would go up, and the lottery still wouldn't pay as much as they would for televising the drawings.
Maryland has that but it only archives about a weeks worth of vedio information. I know a lot of people who use the internet. But i know a lot more that don't or woln't get near a PC even if you gave them one for free. A lot of people i know who use a pc for work say that when they get home the last thing they want to do is get on a pc and surf the net.
Quote:Originally posted by four4me on January 21, 2005
Maryland has that but it only archives about a weeks worth of vedio information. I know a lot of people who use the internet. But i know a lot more that don't or woln't get near a PC even if you gave them one for free. A lot of people i know who use a pc for work say that when they get home the last thing they want to do is get on a pc and surf the net.
However i do agree that DrEW has agood idea.
I know a lot of people don't use a PC, but the great thing is that everyone has free access to the Internet (at their public library), so this is the ideal way to fulfill the obligation of giving the public full access to the drawings, while not significantly increasing the budget. People don't need to be spoon-fed the info, but it does have to be relatively easy to get, and this idea satisfies both priciples.
The idea is a sound one, provided the integrity of lottery personnel can be assured. If the Hoosier Lottery were to adopt such a policy, the next scandal to hit the papers would be one in which they'd tape a week's worth or even a month's worth of drawings in one day, and then air them at the appropriate times. This would enable them to predetermine the winning numbers on a daily basis, so we're right back where we started. I think the idea could be enhanced to include a videotape of a live drawing for later review on the web.
In my opinion, live drawings are necessary in order to preserve the integrity of the games. If I were to open a machine shop, I would need a lathe, a CNC milling machine and other tools and equipment essential to running that business. I couldn't just pitch my lathe or CNC machine because I suddenly decided they were too expensive to operate. If I did, I wouldn't be in business very long because I've removed an element which allows me to earn money. The lotteries must provide a live drawing, even if no one watches, because it's essential to the integrity of the games; it's a basic cost of doing business in that industry which cannot be circumvented without drawing suspicion.
Here is an anecdote which illustrates my point (this is a true story):
A year or so ago, I wanted to buy the Band of Brothers DVD set. I drove to Wal-Mart every other day for three weeks, but each time I arrived I was told the item I wanted to buy would be on Tuesday's (or Thursday's) truck. Finally, I managed to corner the department manager. I explained that I had been there several times in the past few weeks, but that the promised merchandise had never arrived. Her reply? "Oh, we can't keep the Band of Brothers on the shelves, so we're not going to order it anymore." On my honor; her exact words. I went to Best Buy the following day and bought my DVD set, but I did pay three dollars more than I would have at Wal-Mart.
My point is that, no matter what business you're in, there are certain things which are integral to your business, things without which you could no longer operate. In the example just cited, Wal-Mart must have stock to sell; once the shelves are empty, they're out of business. The same is true of the fictional machine shop; it can't run without the cutting machines which make it a machine shop.
Obviously, lotteries can operate without providing live broadcasts, but they do so at their own risk and expense. When I discovered Indiana's RNG, my friends and I stopped playing, and there are probably others who did so as well. We must insist the lotteries accept the expense of live broadcasts as they accept the inevitability of their utility bills. If they want to save money, let them turn down their heat and lights. The Hoosier Lottery has been operating in the dark for several years anyway, so they should be used to it by now.
Personally I turn on the channel broadcasting the lottery game at the time of the drawing and then rerturn to the programming I was originally watching before the drawing.
To say that they are only getting a 7% share of the Nielson ratings is referring to the whole half hour of programming in that time slot. Put it on a better channel, change draw times, do anything it takes to increase revenues, but the last resort is to go to closeted computerized drawings. I wouldn't play that kind of game.
IN has a whole lot to learn about running a lottery. I wouldn't play it if the tickets were free.
Jim695 said: The lotteries must provide a live drawing, even if no one watches, because it's essential to the integrity of the games; it's a basic cost of doing business in that industry which cannot be circumvented without drawing suspicion.
That is the best wording I ever encountered since I realized lotteries could be altered. I very much like your last paragraph also
Nothing personal, but you anti-electronic drawing guys and gals are self-deceived. Random number generators do not equal corruption or any intent to pay fewer prizes. Make sure you get your facts straight before you jump on the emotional bandwagon of fear. It's a pretty easy jump; easier than doing a little research and using common sense.
First fact: Lotteries across the country, including Delaware, Indiana, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, etc., are paying out a higher percentage of sales in these recent years of adding randomizers than they were when using ping pong balls. Almost all North American Lotteries are Public Agencies and you can access their audited financial statements by request and sometimes on the Web. If you are going to trust one thing you should trust financial reports of state agencies. These reports are usually prepared by outside auditors.
Second fact: Lotteries and othe gaming enterprises, such as casinos and slots parlors, know that paying out MORE prizes is the basis for all growth in gamnbling receipts. If you conspiracy theorists really think lotteries are trying to NOT pay you prizes, you are dead wrong. Massachussetts is the most successful Lottery in North America and they---not coincidently---have the highest payout percentages of all, by design Every lottery director wishes they had the payout latitude that MA has. Lotteries WANT to increaase payouts and are held ticght to laws written for them. Does this sound like a basis for trying to start a drawing method that prdvents players form winning?
Third fact: Random numbers generators have been used for years and years for keno and slot machines. They allow the design of games that allow for presicse control of payout percentages. Do you guys really think Lottery games are designed to pay on demand of the Lottery--with ping pong balls or not? Math determines payout percentages and winning occurrence frequencies in the long run. If you are going to scream corruption and fraud (don't be fooled, that is what you guys are assuming) then rightfully accuse lotteries of doing the math correctly so that an exact number of winners is expected and an exact payout percentage is acheived. Lotteries and casinos could care less when the winners are granted in the short run. Its the long-run that counts.
Fourth fact: The only drawing security breaches and scams ever executed in U.S. Lottery history involve ping pong ball drawings (PA's 666 drawing, anybody?). All of the mis-draws have also been ping-pong ball drawings except for one in Canada a few years ago. No corruption involved there. Changing the way a ball bounces or its weight is a lot easier than pulling chips out of sealed computer cases in high-security facilites. All of these new electronic drawings are air-tight and off-line, meaning they cannot be hacked. Go see for yourself. I have.
Fifth fact: We are gambling when we play lottery games. Most of the lotteries you guys are concerned about as setting up systems to deny you from winning are in fact doing that! But its not personal, you see. Most players have to lose so the lottery or casino can pay a few! As the old saying goes, they don't build casinos by losing money. As mentioned in the third fact, its by design.
Sixth fact: Lottery employees and lottery directors are just business managers, accountants, and floor sweepers just like the rest of us. They are not sitting in hidden offices, denying public and media access, and scheming to steal from a select few. If you are so coonvinced otherwise, pick up the phone and find out where the office is and see for yourself. Most are state agencies that cannot deny you access.
Sdventh fact: If you write accusatory emails and threaten to quit playing and call the FBI, the CIA, and your local state rep, you are not going to get a response. If they do respond, they'll tell you to go right ahead! You've got that right and you've not really asked a legitimate question as a rational citizen with a rightful stake in you stae government's enterprise. Email, write, call, ask questions and you will be amazed at how humanized your lottery becomes. If you come off as some wacko who wears a tinfoil helmet to bed to block the Lottery from monitoring your dreams, you will be duely ignored. If you have a legitimate question, ask it. Ever tried contacting the IRS to accuse them of conspiring to ruin you financial future?
Eighth fact: Most of you won't care about these facts. You have decided that someone is up to no good, and nothing will change your thought direction. It is comfortable for you and easier than learning the long math for calculating odds through running factorial/permutation/combinmation/poisson distributions. The math is hard. I know, I got 'C's in that level of math and now rely on Microsoft Excel to do the work for me.
So how do I know these facts? You guessed it. I've been a pain in the butt with my state lottery and they have had me in on several occasions to view drawings and see their procedures. They are not staffed by scheming crooks. Most employees have been in these jobs for years. Don't you think they would have been found out by now? C;mon! Get real!
The fact is that Lottery's using ping pong balls that are produced by the same manufacturer and may be used more than once per set are showing more statistical patterns in randomness than those states with RNGs. For example, if the number '04' is 0.00076 grams heavier than the number '05' there is a greater statistical probabilty that the number '05 will be drawn The key is not to play against a drawing method but to calculate reciprocal probabilities for a set of numbers. Even so, it's still luck guys.
Two last tips
Tip one: If you are not having fun, don't play. It's gambling and these games are designed in the favor of the house--in a BIG, BIG way. If you want to see ping pong balls, go play bingo on the boardwalk or firehall. I'm sticking to my math and avoiding the easy trap of getting caught up in emotion, superstition, or blaming something other than math for my losses.
Tip two: Best current lottery bets are Delaware's Multi-win Lotto and Pensylvania's Match 6. Delaware reports paying out over 50% of sales in prizes BELOW the $50,000 top prize over the first 6 drawings. Multi-win design will pay an annualized payout percentage of about 61% including a half-dozen $50,000 plus prizes. Percentages provided per recent email response from marketing staff. Remember, when you play in a small state you are playing in a pool with a small population with a game with a smaller matrix (6 of 35 for Multi-win).
A tub of swiss cheese has far fewer holes than your arguments.
I love how you say that a RNG is fair because they "have been used for years and years for keno and slot machines." I guess you've got me cornered on that one! Keno games and slot machines are well-known for their fairness and accuracy, huh? (On the contrary, casinos love 'em because they can control exactly what machines payout the most. Is that what you're after?)
I think the fact that the lottery can easily catch people who try to rig the games using mechanical draw machines is a testament to their auditability. But you're proposing using technology which makes it impossible for your regular old "C" math student to see if someone has rigged it. I take no comfort in the fact that computer fraudsters have not been caught.
Overall, you sound like someone involved with the lottery (I'd place a wager on that), and you're tired of regular old citizens (i.e., the players) complaining about your wonderful technology.
I have tip #96 for you: take your fingers out of your ears and start listening. Swallow that pride and do what the players want. In the end, you'll be happier.
here's a way that may be cheaper to draw pick 3 and pick 4 games.
build a slot machine. 3 slots for pick 3, and 4 slots for pick 4. the draw talent pulls the handle, and the slot machine goes to work. no balls to fill with lead paint. no air machines to break.
Hey, Todd. Swiss cheese? I don't see you filling in any of those holes with facts or references or experience from visiting a gaming operation and seeing something amiss. You do miss the point, and I am certain you did not intend to insult by insinuating I am a lotery person out to battle the cynics and naysayers...
You see, while all of the cynics and naysayers are worried about whether a draw method is rigged (which isn't happening at the hands of any state or casino in any small conspiracy, at least) they are missing the factual reason behind why they do not win. The answer is math, not method.
You are correct, and I stated earlier, that randomizers are set up to pay out a specific amount over time. Is this fair? Why, yes. And its legal. And it is audited like crazy in this country. That is how Lotteries and casinos make money. Are you saying that ping pong balls are set up to be more fair, i.e. pay more? You would be wrong if you said yes. All drawing methods will favor "The House" in the long run. A 6 of 6 of 49 combination drawn by ping pong balls is the exact combination drawn by a true RNG running the same mathematical combinations. If you know this to be unfactual in any case, let's see the case and or study that shows so. The proof of the pudding is in the prizes paid, not the conjecture of those who do not truly understand the mathematics of probabilties (my 'C's were when I was babe chasing and carousing, so I have an excuse for one semester. I did improve )
Moreover, you miss the greatest point of all. Lotteries have been paying out more and selling more and they do not wish to pay out less. Ask them. They will tell you. They all want to be like Mass and Connecticut. If they paid less, they would sell less. You could do your denizens a favor and post links to pubicized documents that show I am wrong, if there are any. In fact, quite the opposite is true as to lotteries' desires. I have done my research as I intend to develop a market a PAF reciprocal probilities tool to market to lottery players. My research does include visiting lotteries and consulting with companies that build and certify RNGs for slots, keno, lotteries, and mathematical research.
As to your issue with stating ping pong balls make a more visible criminal trap, I disagree. Lotteries will catch someone perpetrating a crime with an RNG as quickly as with a ping pong ball. In the Delaware, D.C. and PA lotteries, the auditing of seals and certifications is pretty impressive. I have witnessed drawings at all 3.
I'm not trying to convcince anyone that they should like an RNG drawing any more than a ping pong ball drawing. The conspracy theories I read are just so implausible that I've got to suggest that the believers in such scams should see for themselves. A call for cynics to seek truth is nothing new. It just seems like such an incredible waste of energy on a cynical whim.
Are the Lotteries and casinos really corrupt? Would you say that without knowing for sure? Is it easier to scream corruption than to assume that the math is stacked against you? Why are there no criminal investigations? Why do the lotteries let citizens, the media, law enforcement, independent auditors, and politicians in? Are they the lotteires that smart to pull something like this off? Are we that naive to think that all government is in on it? I'll let you each answer those questions for yourselves. Just try to imagine the magnitude of any conspiracy in real world terms as you come up with your answers.
So you don't like randomizers? No problem. Don't play when they use them. Me, I will take my C's in college math (and my better grades, too) and my understanding of the gaming industry and make wise bets. The absolutely beautiful irony in all of this is that so many of us players use spreadsheet solvers with linear programming regression modeling and RNGs in our expensive lottery prediction software tools to attempt to determine the outcome of drawings using ping pong balls. Go figure!
FYI, Delaware started using their RNG in 1997. The payouts for the Lotto game just retired and the play 3 and play 4 games are higher in the last 7 years than the previous 7. If you write to them, they will send you their annual reports. Pennsylvania and Florida are actually in a bit of trouble right now because their payouts have been running too high and they might not make their required contribution to the state. Does that sound like a state keeping money from players? For those of you who don't know how a typical lottery works, there are minimum requirements for distribution of each dollar they take in. Typically, 30% goes back to the state, 50-60% in prizes, 7-10% in retailer commissions, 5-7% in system vendor fees, and the rest in operating costs for salaries and marketing.
Read, read, read; ask, ask, ask. Don't just take my word for it and don't fall into the easy answer traps.
FYI, I know I am dating myself, but I've been around long enough to remember when PA and Delaware "legitamized" the street numbers. The illegal street numbers games were based on one of many things: the last 3 digits of the volume of the NYSE, the results of a particluar horserace at a particular track, and sometimes just based on whatever the mob wanted to base it on. We always hated the numbers and were certain that it was fixed. every now and then, someone down the blcok would win a straight bet, and one of us would win a box bet. Just enough to keep us playing for several more days. When NY, NJ, PA, DE, DC, and MD started using ping pong balls, there was an uproar like you wouldn't beleive. The ping pong balls were fixed and goverment was corrupt. Sound familiar to today's randomizer situation?
My supplemental point is that we gamblers (and anybody, for that matter), hate change. When we lose, we blame "The House" first. Be smart. think about why you really lost and learn what to bet, when to bet, and why to bet rather than complain about some phantom conspiracy. The House isn't going to go under just becasue we complain while we still keep playing. As I metioned, Delaware changed 7 years ago. Players have been complaining ever since. But they are still playing.
Their site shows a different figure--57%. Is your figure for a specific game? Lotteries do intentionally create an aggregate payout across all game. For example, keno will typicallly pay around 60-65% whereas a daily numbers game is usually a payout odds game around 50%. If you needed to check on the veracity of the figure on the page below, you could contact the NY State Comptroller/Auditor:
Okay. I'm guessing their keno and instant tickets are the best payout percentages. It's interesting to do a little reading of state code and Lottery law. I don't know anything about NY lottery code, but Mass does not have a required return to the state like Delaware and PA. This means that they can jack up payouts on instant tickets and keno, while making it up on lower payout games like lotto. The key is deciding whether you want to play long-odds and expect very few winning experiences (typical lotto games) or play better overall odds and expect more smaller prizes. It would be nice if all states posted "average odds" or "average overall odds" which means your chance of winning any prize. I mentioned Delaware's Multi-win Lotto as a pretty hot game right now becasue it has average overall odds of winning any prize at 1:5.7. The old Delaware Lotto game had 1:360 oddds of winning any prize--pretty slim. This new game is almost as good as an instant and keeps you in the game for a lot longer (another objective of good game design and optimized higher payouts). On top of that, the middle prizes have good odds as well. So does PA's Match 6, but Match 6 has more $2 winners and not as favorable of odds in the $20 to $500 level. I was told by a Delaware retailer that there have been several $1,000 winner each drawing and a $52,000 winner the second drawing. This is a big deal for such a small state. It's worth the short drive for me. But just for fun
I see from your response that (a) you did not deny being connected to the lottery in some way, and (b) you like to write long, wordy responses that would require me to write a similarly long, windy response in order to rebut all the nonsense you wrote.
Sorry, but I don't have the time necessary to do that kind of thing, especially when your every one of your arguments are so specious, requiring me to write an unnecessarily long response.
So, you're saying (in your profile) that you're from "Philly", eh? Does that mean you're originally from Philly, or what? I hope I'm not asking something "insulting" to you. I don't think questioning the motives or location of a person coming here and writing a diatribe from an obviously biased point of view to be "insulting". But I have no doubt you will claim to be "insulted" because it diverts from the point without having to answer it.
Being "long-winded" does not make one "smart" or "right".
I didn't know I needed to state my city of origin and whether I was not with a Lottery for you to sanction me as credible. Well, I am not with a Lottery. Yes, I was born in Philly. Southside, born in 1947. Grew up in Wilmington in Browntown. Male. Vet. Systems Engineer by trade, B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Penn State. Go Lions....
Anything else? Do I also need to agree with your oversimplified view (blame) of why people don't win at lottery games now?
Specious? Wow. How much more insulting can you get? Is this your site, Todd? I didn't recognize you as such until I just looked at your profile. Thanks for the warm welcome.
Here it is, Todd: How can somebody perpetuating an unfounded, general, global accusation against the gaming industry call anyone with personal experience and an educated opionion specious? Another nice irony, here. Specious exactly describes your position on corrupt lotteries. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=specious
I don't buy the "I don't have time...." cop out. And you don't need to prove anything to me. I prefer balls myself. The difference between me and you is that I chose to see things and learn for myself--one way otr the other--that my concerns of gaming system integrity were real or unfounded. My understanding of how lotteries and casinos work, think, and prosper has helped me to develop a solid product. I think people should see for themselves rather than jump in on any easy and convenient blame game. It makes a person feel better, as you told me to do in you first response.
Math, Todd; math. When the next drawing method comes, and when the next lottery or casino administration comes in, people are still going to lose more often than win unless they pay attention to the math. If they fret, fuss, an moan about a cheating "House" they are wasting their energy. They might as well try crstals and tea leafs. Lottery's and casino can legally and efficiently plan for payouts and frequency of winners. In ost cases, they are required to show their math. Most everyone fails to try to understand the math when they lose. It makes no sense for a systemic cheat. Sure, some knuckhead individual will show up and try to pull something off. Certainly he or she will get caught. That will only furhter serve to prove that it is not a systemic corruption, but an occaisional thief.
A few years ago, I thought the PA and Delaware Lottery were both corrupt. I decided to learn how they worked to rest my anger. I'll say it again, folks. Don't take my word for it. Or anybody elses, for that matter. Speak up. Ask questions. Learn for yourself. You'll make better bets in gaming and your life
I think you need to find a web site where hyper-active ego-centrics swap long stories.
I was correct when I stated that you fill your posts with specious arguments. Glad you looked it up.
When I mentioned Philly, it was because you are not in Philadelphia right now. Nor where you when you made your first post. How about you tell us where exactly you were?
The reason I ask is that we don't take kindly to people who intentionally mislead the members here as to their location. In your case, it is a major "oversight" - or perhaps deception?
Here are the rules, which you may want to take a look at, and which are very clear about misleading the membership as to your location. To guard against what you are doing.
Well, Todd. You are right about one thing. I need to find a Website where the host is objective and doesn't ask people with different opinions to leave. I am from Philly. I work in both PA and Delaware.and am posting from Delaware. I've already publicly posted personal information about myself way beyond you rules. Where are you from. Jersey, huh? Where in Jersery? WHere were you raised?
But you still fail to provide any credible foundation for your position. Guess you don't have one.
Bet smart, folks.
BB
...in Philly, Delaware, and any other place where there is Web access--
You know exactly what I'm talking about, and again you throw out useless comments and arguments in order to hide your true intentions. I never asked personal information - you're the one who started throwing out useless junk like "male, went to Penn State (go Lions)", etc. (Although I love Penn State, you mentioned it as a sarcastic remark.)
We're inching closer to the truth here, but it's obvious that you don't want to be forthcoming without being confronted.
Anyone following this thread should understand that the person making these claims has a connection to the State of Delaware, and as a result speaks from a position of what is best for the state, rather than what is best for the player.
The members here have become quite savvy at detecting the differences between honest debate and ulterior motives. Big bets, you have been uncovered for what you are.
You would have done much better if you made it clear what your motivations were, so that people can judge for themselves if they want to listen to your arguments.
I would like to comment on Delaware's computer drawings from past experience visiting the internal drawing site. I have done so on several ocassions, though it has been about two years now since my last visit. I did not like the inconsistency of "drawing techniques" displayed by the various auditors at each visit, though perhaps since we are talking about electronic signals and not ping pong balls, it sholdn't make any difference. But being preferential to the consistency of the daily ping pong method on TV, this bothered me a little. As a player, I look for bias whereever I think I can find it. When they first started these drawings by machine, they supposedly used three different programs. One was an RNG, and the other two were "algorithm'. Now I'm not a computer programer, but my understanding of this term is a set of instructions to be followed. When I visited there my last time, I was told that an RNG was not used anymore, only 3 algorithm programs. This bothered me at first. But as I thought about it, I figured if the selection method was left to a set of instructions, perhaps some kind of bias could be detected there that one could take advantage of. However, maybe I'm just hard headed to change my ways, or I haven't yet locked in since my pick 3 hitting has fallen off with the computer drawings. As far as the 3 digit goes, one thing that seems to be a pattern is that a lot of numbers that hit twice, hit a third time, and this can happen 3 out of 4 weeks. Another thing I noticed in this regard .....triples that hit during the last few years, and there may be as many as 5, many of them hit again up to 3 times each. Perhaps in someway this ties into the 3 different programs. Of course they also have two different machines to randomly select from each draw along with a random selection of the program to be used, giving 6 different possible combinations. But like most players, I still like to see the drawings out in the open, and not conducted behind closed doors. I think DE lottery is hurting for funds since PA joined Powerball and NJ and MD joined Mega Millions. A lot of out of state revenue has been lost. The unclaimed $5 million dollar lotto jackpot from last year that they retained helped to replace the lost revenue.
Not exactly back to back drawings. This happens in ball drawings also.
I didn't have time to check all states but Indiana and Maryland weren't the only states to have repeat numbers draw this month. Maryland also had the combo of 059 drawn 4 times.
And 1748 drawn twice
1748 & 1847
What's important is RNG's can be controlled with software designed to manipulate the game. code can be transmitted through the air. The PC machines don't need to have ports that can be accessed. Soon the one arm bandits will probably have the same thing when the house wants to change the odds say tighten the machines for the weekend players. All they would need to do is change the numerical data at a central PC. (instead of going from machine to machine and opening them up and changing the payout percent.) No matter what kind of game it is there are many ways of corrupting the game. Players/gamblers might be aware of this but will still continue to play despite the house rules/odds. They are in the game for a win regardless of the cost to play. People will always continue to play because for whatever reason they think that it just might be them that gets the golden egg.
That's a great example. Did you see on the same dates the second Pick 3 drawings had 942 and 943? Looks like Indiana used the same algorithm for both drawings, and since they were probably held at the same time of the day, the seed number may have the same or similar. A great example of one of the many reasons why computers are no good for lottery drawings.
Someone may say, "hey, that's great, I'll be able to predict the numbers easier!" But do they really think the lottery would let that happen? If anything the lotteries can make sure the patterns don't reoccur. After seeing 0072 come up twice, it would be easy to "adjust" the algorithm so that never happens again, and the player would spend a lifetime trying to catch the repetition again.
That game of cat and mouse would not be possible with ball machines, because the lottery cannot "command" certain balls to come out.
You are right Todd! I agree that the same algorithm was used. Again, Jim's scrolls show a myriad of patterns that can prove the Hoosier Lottery drawings are not random! I guess they figured no one would ever catch it; they were wrong! It appears now that everything has backfired, as the public is now understanding the truth of this matter.
here's the problem with RNGs. not only can they be fixed, but it takes longer between drawing cut-off and the release of the winning numbers. that only adds scrutiny to the drawings. why does it take 20-30 minutes to draw numbers randomly, but a matter of seconds for lotteries to draw numbers with a ball machine (depending on how many games are being drawn on that day. some lotteries draw only one, while others will draw 4 or 5 on a give draw show.). the other problem with lotteries (both ball machind and RNG, but this is more common with lotteries that use RNGs) is that they do not always give a specific time as to when the drawings take place. for example, new york holds their mid-day drawings between 12:25 and 12:30, and their evening drawings for numbers and win 4 between 7:35 and 7:55. indiana's mid-day and evening drawings are "conducted as soon as possible, but not more than 10 minutes after the ticket sales cutoff time. ohio (they do use ball machines for their mid-day drawings. they just don't televise them anymore.) has set cutoff times for their drawings at 12:29 and 7:29, during the week, and 7:50 on saturdays for the super lotto plus and kicker drawings. the thing is that they need to have set times for their drawings.
Quote:Originally posted by DoctorEw220 on February 14, 2005
here's the problem with RNGs. not only can they be fixed, but it takes longer between drawing cut-off and the release of the winning numbers. that only adds scrutiny to the drawings. why does it take 20-30 minutes to draw numbers randomly, but a matter of seconds for lotteries to draw numbers with a ball machine (depending on how many games are being drawn on that day. some lotteries draw only one, while others will draw 4 or 5 on a give draw show.). the other problem with lotteries (both ball machind and RNG, but this is more common with lotteries that use RNGs) is that they do not always give a specific time as to when the drawings take place. for example, new york holds their mid-day drawings between 12:25 and 12:30, and their evening drawings for numbers and win 4 between 7:35 and 7:55. indiana's mid-day and evening drawings are "conducted as soon as possible, but not more than 10 minutes after the ticket sales cutoff time. ohio (they do use ball machines for their mid-day drawings. they just don't televise them anymore.) has set cutoff times for their drawings at 12:29 and 7:29, during the week, and 7:50 on saturdays for the super lotto plus and kicker drawings. the thing is that they need to have set times for their drawings.
As Homer Simpson would say,
"Woo-Hoo"
PLEASE sign the petition and contact your state lottery regarding this crucial issue. All you have to tell them in your e-mail is that you will discontinue playing the game if they decide to take this approach. Money (revenue) talks. I'm glad to see that at least one state recognizes the loss of revenue resulting from secret computer draws held in closets with state programmed computers.
This can be used in any state: contact your representatives, and let them know that other legislators in other states feel the same way.
Lottery games are nothing but money to a state, and if that money is threatened the will act. Let them know that players don't like computerized drawings, and will play less if they don't bring back mechanical draw machines.
I love the fact that one of the sponsors of the Delaware bill is the House Majority Leader.
Thank You Todd
Yes Todd....a big thank you from all of us who like watching the bouncing ping pong balls!
Good idea Konane. Time to go on the offense with zeal....I've bought a lot of drinks for my buddies after a win and I will tap them to support this issue.
Konane,
That's an excellent idea! I'd also recommend sending that to your state and federal representatives as well.
Todd I wouldn't mind doing that however I would like the source of the information in that article. I have checked the Delaware lottery's website and did not find it on their site. Can you post a link as to the source or PM it to me.
well, it's about time somebody woke up and smelled the coffee..!
I would approve of a ban on computerized draws...although it would endanger keno.
Thanks Konane that link was what I was looking for.
Sorry for the misunderstanding Todd. When I saw the Delaware logo with that post I assumed it was from their site. Not realizing that, I wondered were you found the article. So I surfed Delaware site. I realized rather quickly that it wasn't something they would post. I didn't have time to do and Internet search for the article. I had several errands to run. Konane has posted what I was asking for. If I were to forward it I would like to send the original Document along with the post. Usually when I post something I find from off site I post the source of the item that way people can find and read the article if they wish. Thanks for posting the item I'm glad that some lawmakers are now involved in our effort to get things back to the way they were.
Cash Only this has nothing to do with keno!
four4me:
How are keno games (every few minutes) drawn? DE doesn't have keno.
This is what you wrote: although it would endanger keno.
This article Todd posted has nothing to do with keno games in any state it's about pick 3/4 and other games that have gone computerized. I am only commenting about your statement because i don't know where you get the idea that it involves keno.
i sent a nice, long e-mail to the PA lottery about how they can easily cut costs by video-taping the mid-day drawings and uploading them to the website instead of televising them. that way, they need not pay money to TV stations to broadcast them, but they still have live, authentic, vidoe-taped drawings, but the players can view the draw on the website instead of the TV. the sales would go up, and the lottery still wouldn't pay as much as they would for televising the drawings.
Maryland has that but it only archives about a weeks worth of vedio information. I know a lot of people who use the internet. But i know a lot more that don't or woln't get near a PC even if you gave them one for free. A lot of people i know who use a pc for work say that when they get home the last thing they want to do is get on a pc and surf the net.
However i do agree that DrEW has agood idea.
The idea is a sound one, provided the integrity of lottery personnel can be assured. If the Hoosier Lottery were to adopt such a policy, the next scandal to hit the papers would be one in which they'd tape a week's worth or even a month's worth of drawings in one day, and then air them at the appropriate times. This would enable them to predetermine the winning numbers on a daily basis, so we're right back where we started. I think the idea could be enhanced to include a videotape of a live drawing for later review on the web.
In my opinion, live drawings are necessary in order to preserve the integrity of the games. If I were to open a machine shop, I would need a lathe, a CNC milling machine and other tools and equipment essential to running that business. I couldn't just pitch my lathe or CNC machine because I suddenly decided they were too expensive to operate. If I did, I wouldn't be in business very long because I've removed an element which allows me to earn money. The lotteries must provide a live drawing, even if no one watches, because it's essential to the integrity of the games; it's a basic cost of doing business in that industry which cannot be circumvented without drawing suspicion.
Here is an anecdote which illustrates my point (this is a true story):
A year or so ago, I wanted to buy the Band of Brothers DVD set. I drove to Wal-Mart every other day for three weeks, but each time I arrived I was told the item I wanted to buy would be on Tuesday's (or Thursday's) truck. Finally, I managed to corner the department manager. I explained that I had been there several times in the past few weeks, but that the promised merchandise had never arrived. Her reply? "Oh, we can't keep the Band of Brothers on the shelves, so we're not going to order it anymore." On my honor; her exact words. I went to Best Buy the following day and bought my DVD set, but I did pay three dollars more than I would have at Wal-Mart.
My point is that, no matter what business you're in, there are certain things which are integral to your business, things without which you could no longer operate. In the example just cited, Wal-Mart must have stock to sell; once the shelves are empty, they're out of business. The same is true of the fictional machine shop; it can't run without the cutting machines which make it a machine shop.
Obviously, lotteries can operate without providing live broadcasts, but they do so at their own risk and expense. When I discovered Indiana's RNG, my friends and I stopped playing, and there are probably others who did so as well. We must insist the lotteries accept the expense of live broadcasts as they accept the inevitability of their utility bills. If they want to save money, let them turn down their heat and lights. The Hoosier Lottery has been operating in the dark for several years anyway, so they should be used to it by now.
Todd:
I access Lottery Post from the liberry.
Do you also access Lottery Post from the library?
Personally I turn on the channel broadcasting the lottery game at the time of the drawing and then rerturn to the programming I was originally watching before the drawing.
To say that they are only getting a 7% share of the Nielson ratings is referring to the whole half hour of programming in that time slot. Put it on a better channel, change draw times, do anything it takes to increase revenues, but the last resort is to go to closeted computerized drawings. I wouldn't play that kind of game.
IN has a whole lot to learn about running a lottery. I wouldn't play it if the tickets were free.
do you get the blues from blueberries?
still no response from PA, and i sent it a few days ago.
Jim695 said: The lotteries must provide a live drawing, even if no one watches, because it's essential to the integrity of the games; it's a basic cost of doing business in that industry which cannot be circumvented without drawing suspicion.
That is the best wording I ever encountered since I realized lotteries could be altered. I very much like your last paragraph also
Nothing personal, but you anti-electronic drawing guys and gals are self-deceived. Random number generators do not equal corruption or any intent to pay fewer prizes. Make sure you get your facts straight before you jump on the emotional bandwagon of fear. It's a pretty easy jump; easier than doing a little research and using common sense.
First fact: Lotteries across the country, including Delaware, Indiana, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, etc., are paying out a higher percentage of sales in these recent years of adding randomizers than they were when using ping pong balls. Almost all North American Lotteries are Public Agencies and you can access their audited financial statements by request and sometimes on the Web. If you are going to trust one thing you should trust financial reports of state agencies. These reports are usually prepared by outside auditors.
Second fact: Lotteries and othe gaming enterprises, such as casinos and slots parlors, know that paying out MORE prizes is the basis for all growth in gamnbling receipts. If you conspiracy theorists really think lotteries are trying to NOT pay you prizes, you are dead wrong. Massachussetts is the most successful Lottery in North America and they---not coincidently---have the highest payout percentages of all, by design Every lottery director wishes they had the payout latitude that MA has. Lotteries WANT to increaase payouts and are held ticght to laws written for them. Does this sound like a basis for trying to start a drawing method that prdvents players form winning?
Third fact: Random numbers generators have been used for years and years for keno and slot machines. They allow the design of games that allow for presicse control of payout percentages. Do you guys really think Lottery games are designed to pay on demand of the Lottery--with ping pong balls or not? Math determines payout percentages and winning occurrence frequencies in the long run. If you are going to scream corruption and fraud (don't be fooled, that is what you guys are assuming) then rightfully accuse lotteries of doing the math correctly so that an exact number of winners is expected and an exact payout percentage is acheived. Lotteries and casinos could care less when the winners are granted in the short run. Its the long-run that counts.
Fourth fact: The only drawing security breaches and scams ever executed in U.S. Lottery history involve ping pong ball drawings (PA's 666 drawing, anybody?). All of the mis-draws have also been ping-pong ball drawings except for one in Canada a few years ago. No corruption involved there. Changing the way a ball bounces or its weight is a lot easier than pulling chips out of sealed computer cases in high-security facilites. All of these new electronic drawings are air-tight and off-line, meaning they cannot be hacked. Go see for yourself. I have.
Fifth fact: We are gambling when we play lottery games. Most of the lotteries you guys are concerned about as setting up systems to deny you from winning are in fact doing that! But its not personal, you see. Most players have to lose so the lottery or casino can pay a few! As the old saying goes, they don't build casinos by losing money. As mentioned in the third fact, its by design.
Sixth fact: Lottery employees and lottery directors are just business managers, accountants, and floor sweepers just like the rest of us. They are not sitting in hidden offices, denying public and media access, and scheming to steal from a select few. If you are so coonvinced otherwise, pick up the phone and find out where the office is and see for yourself. Most are state agencies that cannot deny you access.
Sdventh fact: If you write accusatory emails and threaten to quit playing and call the FBI, the CIA, and your local state rep, you are not going to get a response. If they do respond, they'll tell you to go right ahead! You've got that right and you've not really asked a legitimate question as a rational citizen with a rightful stake in you stae government's enterprise. Email, write, call, ask questions and you will be amazed at how humanized your lottery becomes. If you come off as some wacko who wears a tinfoil helmet to bed to block the Lottery from monitoring your dreams, you will be duely ignored. If you have a legitimate question, ask it. Ever tried contacting the IRS to accuse them of conspiring to ruin you financial future?
Eighth fact: Most of you won't care about these facts. You have decided that someone is up to no good, and nothing will change your thought direction. It is comfortable for you and easier than learning the long math for calculating odds through running factorial/permutation/combinmation/poisson distributions. The math is hard. I know, I got 'C's in that level of math and now rely on Microsoft Excel to do the work for me.
So how do I know these facts? You guessed it. I've been a pain in the butt with my state lottery and they have had me in on several occasions to view drawings and see their procedures. They are not staffed by scheming crooks. Most employees have been in these jobs for years. Don't you think they would have been found out by now? C;mon! Get real!
The fact is that Lottery's using ping pong balls that are produced by the same manufacturer and may be used more than once per set are showing more statistical patterns in randomness than those states with RNGs. For example, if the number '04' is 0.00076 grams heavier than the number '05' there is a greater statistical probabilty that the number '05 will be drawn The key is not to play against a drawing method but to calculate reciprocal probabilities for a set of numbers. Even so, it's still luck guys.
Two last tips
Tip one: If you are not having fun, don't play. It's gambling and these games are designed in the favor of the house--in a BIG, BIG way. If you want to see ping pong balls, go play bingo on the boardwalk or firehall. I'm sticking to my math and avoiding the easy trap of getting caught up in emotion, superstition, or blaming something other than math for my losses.
Tip two: Best current lottery bets are Delaware's Multi-win Lotto and Pensylvania's Match 6. Delaware reports paying out over 50% of sales in prizes BELOW the $50,000 top prize over the first 6 drawings. Multi-win design will pay an annualized payout percentage of about 61% including a half-dozen $50,000 plus prizes. Percentages provided per recent email response from marketing staff. Remember, when you play in a small state you are playing in a pool with a small population with a game with a smaller matrix (6 of 35 for Multi-win).
Maybe I should have just kept to myself.
BB
Well, fellas, lunch is served. I'll let you guys have this one.
Enjoy!
geez, i thought we were talking about the weakest "link", not the whole fence..!
bigbets:
A tub of swiss cheese has far fewer holes than your arguments.
I love how you say that a RNG is fair because they "have been used for years and years for keno and slot machines." I guess you've got me cornered on that one! Keno games and slot machines are well-known for their fairness and accuracy, huh? (On the contrary, casinos love 'em because they can control exactly what machines payout the most. Is that what you're after?)
I think the fact that the lottery can easily catch people who try to rig the games using mechanical draw machines is a testament to their auditability. But you're proposing using technology which makes it impossible for your regular old "C" math student to see if someone has rigged it. I take no comfort in the fact that computer fraudsters have not been caught.
Overall, you sound like someone involved with the lottery (I'd place a wager on that), and you're tired of regular old citizens (i.e., the players) complaining about your wonderful technology.
I have tip #96 for you: take your fingers out of your ears and start listening. Swallow that pride and do what the players want. In the end, you'll be happier.
here's a way that may be cheaper to draw pick 3 and pick 4 games.
build a slot machine. 3 slots for pick 3, and 4 slots for pick 4. the draw talent pulls the handle, and the slot machine goes to work. no balls to fill with lead paint. no air machines to break.
Hey, Todd. Swiss cheese? I don't see you filling in any of those holes with facts or references or experience from visiting a gaming operation and seeing something amiss. You do miss the point, and I am certain you did not intend to insult by insinuating I am a lotery person out to battle the cynics and naysayers...
You see, while all of the cynics and naysayers are worried about whether a draw method is rigged (which isn't happening at the hands of any state or casino in any small conspiracy, at least) they are missing the factual reason behind why they do not win. The answer is math, not method.
You are correct, and I stated earlier, that randomizers are set up to pay out a specific amount over time. Is this fair? Why, yes. And its legal. And it is audited like crazy in this country. That is how Lotteries and casinos make money. Are you saying that ping pong balls are set up to be more fair, i.e. pay more? You would be wrong if you said yes. All drawing methods will favor "The House" in the long run. A 6 of 6 of 49 combination drawn by ping pong balls is the exact combination drawn by a true RNG running the same mathematical combinations. If you know this to be unfactual in any case, let's see the case and or study that shows so. The proof of the pudding is in the prizes paid, not the conjecture of those who do not truly understand the mathematics of probabilties (my 'C's were when I was babe chasing and carousing, so I have an excuse for one semester. I did improve
)
Moreover, you miss the greatest point of all. Lotteries have been paying out more and selling more and they do not wish to pay out less. Ask them. They will tell you. They all want to be like Mass and Connecticut. If they paid less, they would sell less. You could do your denizens a favor and post links to pubicized documents that show I am wrong, if there are any. In fact, quite the opposite is true as to lotteries' desires. I have done my research as I intend to develop a market a PAF reciprocal probilities tool to market to lottery players. My research does include visiting lotteries and consulting with companies that build and certify RNGs for slots, keno, lotteries, and mathematical research.
As to your issue with stating ping pong balls make a more visible criminal trap, I disagree. Lotteries will catch someone perpetrating a crime with an RNG as quickly as with a ping pong ball. In the Delaware, D.C. and PA lotteries, the auditing of seals and certifications is pretty impressive. I have witnessed drawings at all 3.
I'm not trying to convcince anyone that they should like an RNG drawing any more than a ping pong ball drawing. The conspracy theories I read are just so implausible that I've got to suggest that the believers in such scams should see for themselves. A call for cynics to seek truth is nothing new. It just seems like such an incredible waste of energy on a cynical whim.
Are the Lotteries and casinos really corrupt? Would you say that without knowing for sure? Is it easier to scream corruption than to assume that the math is stacked against you? Why are there no criminal investigations? Why do the lotteries let citizens, the media, law enforcement, independent auditors, and politicians in? Are they the lotteires that smart to pull something like this off? Are we that naive to think that all government is in on it? I'll let you each answer those questions for yourselves. Just try to imagine the magnitude of any conspiracy in real world terms as you come up with your answers.
So you don't like randomizers? No problem. Don't play when they use them. Me, I will take my C's in college math (and my better grades, too) and my understanding of the gaming industry and make wise bets. The absolutely beautiful irony in all of this is that so many of us players use spreadsheet solvers with linear programming regression modeling and RNGs in our expensive lottery prediction software tools to attempt to determine the outcome of drawings using ping pong balls. Go figure!
FYI, Delaware started using their RNG in 1997. The payouts for the Lotto game just retired and the play 3 and play 4 games are higher in the last 7 years than the previous 7. If you write to them, they will send you their annual reports. Pennsylvania and Florida are actually in a bit of trouble right now because their payouts have been running too high and they might not make their required contribution to the state. Does that sound like a state keeping money from players? For those of you who don't know how a typical lottery works, there are minimum requirements for distribution of each dollar they take in. Typically, 30% goes back to the state, 50-60% in prizes, 7-10% in retailer commissions, 5-7% in system vendor fees, and the rest in operating costs for salaries and marketing.
Read, read, read; ask, ask, ask. Don't just take my word for it and don't fall into the easy answer traps.
FYI, I know I am dating myself, but I've been around long enough to remember when PA and Delaware "legitamized" the street numbers. The illegal street numbers games were based on one of many things: the last 3 digits of the volume of the NYSE, the results of a particluar horserace at a particular track, and sometimes just based on whatever the mob wanted to base it on. We always hated the numbers and were certain that it was fixed. every now and then, someone down the blcok would win a straight bet, and one of us would win a box bet. Just enough to keep us playing for several more days. When NY, NJ, PA, DE, DC, and MD started using ping pong balls, there was an uproar like you wouldn't beleive. The ping pong balls were fixed and goverment was corrupt. Sound familiar to today's randomizer situation?
My supplemental point is that we gamblers (and anybody, for that matter), hate change. When we lose, we blame "The House" first. Be smart. think about why you really lost and learn what to bet, when to bet, and why to bet rather than complain about some phantom conspiracy. The House isn't going to go under just becasue we complain while we still keep playing. As I metioned, Delaware changed 7 years ago. Players have been complaining ever since. But they are still playing.
Regrds and TTFN
BB
bigbets:
NY Lotto returns ONLY 38%-40% to players. Be thankful you don't live here.
Their site shows a different figure--57%. Is your figure for a specific game? Lotteries do intentionally create an aggregate payout across all game. For example, keno will typicallly pay around 60-65% whereas a daily numbers game is usually a payout odds game around 50%. If you needed to check on the veracity of the figure on the page below, you could contact the NY State Comptroller/Auditor:
http://www.nylottery.org/ny/nyStore/cgi-bin/ProdSubEV_Cat_333653_SubCat_337630_NavRoot_305.htm
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/finance/
bigbets:
The 38%-40% figure is for the NY Lotto 6/59 game.
Okay. I'm guessing their keno and instant tickets are the best payout percentages. It's interesting to do a little reading of state code and Lottery law. I don't know anything about NY lottery code, but Mass does not have a required return to the state like Delaware and PA. This means that they can jack up payouts on instant tickets and keno, while making it up on lower payout games like lotto. The key is deciding whether you want to play long-odds and expect very few winning experiences (typical lotto games) or play better overall odds and expect more smaller prizes. It would be nice if all states posted "average odds" or "average overall odds" which means your chance of winning any prize. I mentioned Delaware's Multi-win Lotto as a pretty hot game right now becasue it has average overall odds of winning any prize at 1:5.7. The old Delaware Lotto game had 1:360 oddds of winning any prize--pretty slim. This new game is almost as good as an instant and keeps you in the game for a lot longer (another objective of good game design and optimized higher payouts). On top of that, the middle prizes have good odds as well. So does PA's Match 6, but Match 6 has more $2 winners and not as favorable of odds in the $20 to $500 level. I was told by a Delaware retailer that there have been several $1,000 winner each drawing and a $52,000 winner the second drawing. This is a big deal for such a small state. It's worth the short drive for me. But just for fun
BB
Bigbets,
I see from your response that (a) you did not deny being connected to the lottery in some way, and (b) you like to write long, wordy responses that would require me to write a similarly long, windy response in order to rebut all the nonsense you wrote.
Sorry, but I don't have the time necessary to do that kind of thing, especially when your every one of your arguments are so specious, requiring me to write an unnecessarily long response.
So, you're saying (in your profile) that you're from "Philly", eh? Does that mean you're originally from Philly, or what? I hope I'm not asking something "insulting" to you. I don't think questioning the motives or location of a person coming here and writing a diatribe from an obviously biased point of view to be "insulting". But I have no doubt you will claim to be "insulted" because it diverts from the point without having to answer it.
Being "long-winded" does not make one "smart" or "right".
I didn't know I needed to state my city of origin and whether I was not with a Lottery for you to sanction me as credible. Well, I am not with a Lottery. Yes, I was born in Philly. Southside, born in 1947. Grew up in Wilmington in Browntown. Male. Vet. Systems Engineer by trade, B.S. in Electrical Engineering from Penn State. Go Lions....
Anything else? Do I also need to agree with your oversimplified view (blame) of why people don't win at lottery games now?
Specious? Wow. How much more insulting can you get? Is this your site, Todd? I didn't recognize you as such until I just looked at your profile. Thanks for the warm welcome.
Here it is, Todd: How can somebody perpetuating an unfounded, general, global accusation against the gaming industry call anyone with personal experience and an educated opionion specious? Another nice irony, here. Specious exactly describes your position on corrupt lotteries. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=specious
I don't buy the "I don't have time...." cop out. And you don't need to prove anything to me. I prefer balls myself. The difference between me and you is that I chose to see things and learn for myself--one way otr the other--that my concerns of gaming system integrity were real or unfounded. My understanding of how lotteries and casinos work, think, and prosper has helped me to develop a solid product. I think people should see for themselves rather than jump in on any easy and convenient blame game. It makes a person feel better, as you told me to do in you first response.
Math, Todd; math. When the next drawing method comes, and when the next lottery or casino administration comes in, people are still going to lose more often than win unless they pay attention to the math. If they fret, fuss, an moan about a cheating "House" they are wasting their energy. They might as well try crstals and tea leafs. Lottery's and casino can legally and efficiently plan for payouts and frequency of winners. In ost cases, they are required to show their math. Most everyone fails to try to understand the math when they lose. It makes no sense for a systemic cheat. Sure, some knuckhead individual will show up and try to pull something off. Certainly he or she will get caught. That will only furhter serve to prove that it is not a systemic corruption, but an occaisional thief.
A few years ago, I thought the PA and Delaware Lottery were both corrupt. I decided to learn how they worked to rest my anger. I'll say it again, folks. Don't take my word for it. Or anybody elses, for that matter. Speak up. Ask questions. Learn for yourself. You'll make better bets in gaming and your life
BB
I think you need to find a web site where hyper-active ego-centrics swap long stories.
I was correct when I stated that you fill your posts with specious arguments. Glad you looked it up.
When I mentioned Philly, it was because you are not in Philadelphia right now. Nor where you when you made your first post. How about you tell us where exactly you were?
The reason I ask is that we don't take kindly to people who intentionally mislead the members here as to their location. In your case, it is a major "oversight" - or perhaps deception?
Here are the rules, which you may want to take a look at, and which are very clear about misleading the membership as to your location. To guard against what you are doing.
Have a nice day!
Well, Todd. You are right about one thing. I need to find a Website where the host is objective and doesn't ask people with different opinions to leave. I am from Philly. I work in both PA and Delaware.and am posting from Delaware. I've already publicly posted personal information about myself way beyond you rules. Where are you from. Jersey, huh? Where in Jersery? WHere were you raised?
But you still fail to provide any credible foundation for your position. Guess you don't have one.
Bet smart, folks.
BB
...in Philly, Delaware, and any other place where there is Web access--
bigbets:
You know exactly what I'm talking about, and again you throw out useless comments and arguments in order to hide your true intentions. I never asked personal information - you're the one who started throwing out useless junk like "male, went to Penn State (go Lions)", etc. (Although I love Penn State, you mentioned it as a sarcastic remark.)
We're inching closer to the truth here, but it's obvious that you don't want to be forthcoming without being confronted.
Anyone following this thread should understand that the person making these claims has a connection to the State of Delaware, and as a result speaks from a position of what is best for the state, rather than what is best for the player.
The members here have become quite savvy at detecting the differences between honest debate and ulterior motives. Big bets, you have been uncovered for what you are.
You would have done much better if you made it clear what your motivations were, so that people can judge for themselves if they want to listen to your arguments.
Ah, the sounds of silence!
I would like to comment on Delaware's computer drawings from past experience visiting the internal drawing site. I have done so on several ocassions, though it has been about two years now since my last visit. I did not like the inconsistency of "drawing techniques" displayed by the various auditors at each visit, though perhaps since we are talking about electronic signals and not ping pong balls, it sholdn't make any difference. But being preferential to the consistency of the daily ping pong method on TV, this bothered me a little. As a player, I look for bias whereever I think I can find it. When they first started these drawings by machine, they supposedly used three different programs. One was an RNG, and the other two were "algorithm'. Now I'm not a computer programer, but my understanding of this term is a set of instructions to be followed. When I visited there my last time, I was told that an RNG was not used anymore, only 3 algorithm programs. This bothered me at first. But as I thought about it, I figured if the selection method was left to a set of instructions, perhaps some kind of bias could be detected there that one could take advantage of. However, maybe I'm just hard headed to change my ways, or I haven't yet locked in since my pick 3 hitting has fallen off with the computer drawings. As far as the 3 digit goes, one thing that seems to be a pattern is that a lot of numbers that hit twice, hit a third time, and this can happen 3 out of 4 weeks. Another thing I noticed in this regard .....triples that hit during the last few years, and there may be as many as 5, many of them hit again up to 3 times each. Perhaps in someway this ties into the 3 different programs. Of course they also have two different machines to randomly select from each draw along with a random selection of the program to be used, giving 6 different possible combinations. But like most players, I still like to see the drawings out in the open, and not conducted behind closed doors. I think DE lottery is hurting for funds since PA joined Powerball and NJ and MD joined Mega Millions. A lot of out of state revenue has been lost. The unclaimed $5 million dollar lotto jackpot from last year that they retained helped to replace the lost revenue.
Go check Indiana midday 4 for this past week. 0072 hit within 4 days of each other. Nothing out of the ordinary for Indiana.
Four4me,
That's a great example. Did you see on the same dates the second Pick 3 drawings had 942 and 943? Looks like Indiana used the same algorithm for both drawings, and since they were probably held at the same time of the day, the seed number may have the same or similar. A great example of one of the many reasons why computers are no good for lottery drawings.
Someone may say, "hey, that's great, I'll be able to predict the numbers easier!" But do they really think the lottery would let that happen? If anything the lotteries can make sure the patterns don't reoccur. After seeing 0072 come up twice, it would be easy to "adjust" the algorithm so that never happens again, and the player would spend a lifetime trying to catch the repetition again.
That game of cat and mouse would not be possible with ball machines, because the lottery cannot "command" certain balls to come out.
You are right Todd! I agree that the same algorithm was used. Again, Jim's scrolls show a myriad of patterns that can prove the Hoosier Lottery drawings are not random! I guess they figured no one would ever catch it; they were wrong! It appears now that everything has backfired, as the public is now understanding the truth of this matter.
here's the problem with RNGs. not only can they be fixed, but it takes longer between drawing cut-off and the release of the winning numbers. that only adds scrutiny to the drawings. why does it take 20-30 minutes to draw numbers randomly, but a matter of seconds for lotteries to draw numbers with a ball machine (depending on how many games are being drawn on that day. some lotteries draw only one, while others will draw 4 or 5 on a give draw show.). the other problem with lotteries (both ball machind and RNG, but this is more common with lotteries that use RNGs) is that they do not always give a specific time as to when the drawings take place. for example, new york holds their mid-day drawings between 12:25 and 12:30, and their evening drawings for numbers and win 4 between 7:35 and 7:55. indiana's mid-day and evening drawings are "conducted as soon as possible, but not more than 10 minutes after the ticket sales cutoff time. ohio (they do use ball machines for their mid-day drawings. they just don't televise them anymore.) has set cutoff times for their drawings at 12:29 and 7:29, during the week, and 7:50 on saturdays for the super lotto plus and kicker drawings. the thing is that they need to have set times for their drawings.
Looks like some progress is being made.