The possibilities for fraud in RNG gamesPrev TopicNext Topic

• Rip Snorter

  

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  Jul 14, 2006, 6:06 pm

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  Quote: Originally posted by lotterybraker on July 14, 2006

  Ripsnorter..I hope we are having a party..I hope you nail one of those pic 5's or 2 or 3 or 4..lol..I was just saying..I have cycled both ball machines and RNG'S just for the pic 3 and pic 4 mostly..not much difference..a little more for the RNGS..which is the computer..the computers seems to want to combine numbers a little more than the ball machines..I am still trying to find the KEY to the mixing..those states I cycle has many smaller cycles in it to make one..I just need to find the right one that starts it off and it would eliminate many of those other numbers..but the damn thing bounces around like a rubber ball..lol..hence I have to list all the cycles that are present..ie..usually around 40 numbers or so..

  Today it's bonus balls.  All that other stuff is just a smokescreen to confuse the French. 

  NY Pick 6 is gonna catch the main thrust of the attack, but I'd got a few selected targets of opportunity in between here and there, just in case the New Yakkidy Numbers Racket twigs to my game and sends out the Air National Guard to head me off.

  (Unfortunately, Euro-M was one of the targets of opportunity.  Heat seeker went down the smokestack of a garbage scow, instead.  Dead miss for that crazy lovely little-bitty tail--wheel game)

  Later,

  Jack

  Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

  It's about number behavior.

  Egos don't count.

   

  Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

   
• Rip Snorter

  

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  Jul 14, 2006, 6:34 pm

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  Lottobreaker:

  I'll tell you this, and very little of it is BS.  If I lived in a state with MM I'd be tempted to wheel the last two draw results from British Columbia 6/49.

  J

  Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

  It's about number behavior.

  Egos don't count.

   

  Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

   
• Rick G

  

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  Jul 14, 2006, 6:51 pm

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  Quote: Originally posted by KY Floyd on July 14, 2006

  Quote: Originally posted by Rick G on July 14, 2006

  They have a computer system that records your bets or issues you quick picks that are recorded and when the day is over that same computer system is picking the winning numbers. C'mon...we're not that stupid. Really. We might be lottery players but there's very few stupid ones amongst us.

  Among the most basic steps a state would take in running a game where the numbers are drawn by computer would be using an independent computer to draw the numbers, but if there really was a conspiracy to favor numbers that were played it would be easy enough to check the computer that manages the database and then use that information to manipulate the drawing. Of course it would have to be a widespread conspiracy because the programmer(s) would have to be involved, the person(s) dealing with the draw computer would have to be involved, and the independent auditor(s) would have to be involved. There would be daily records showing that somebody checked the database before the drawing to see which number was played the least. Any meaningful manipulation would also skew the long term results, which are expected to result in a payout of 50 cents for each dollar wagered.

  I could go on, but I hear the black helicopters coming and I've only got a few minutes to  format my hard drive and escape through the secret tunnel. 

  Any Indiana players care to respond to that?
  

  Posted 4/6:  IL Pick 3 midday and evening until they hit:  555, 347 (str8).
  

  
  
• stefan

  

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  Hi everybody,

  I have been following this thread with objective eyes. Anyone knows that many lottery players tend to play "dates", like today, the pick 3 combination 147 and pick 4 combination 0147 (14 of july[07] in any order) has been played quite heavily. So, go figure it out. I haven't had the time yet to do some investigations, but if not a single draw result in any pick 3 or pick 4 state, that uses a computer to draw the numbers, matched the exact date of the draw (day-month) at one point in time, then I suspect a "possibility" for fraud in computerised draws.

  Best regards,

   

  Stefan
• Rip Snorter

  

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  Jul 14, 2006, 8:51 pm

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  Quote: Originally posted by stefan on July 14, 2006

  Hi everybody,

  I have been following this thread with objective eyes. Anyone knows that many lottery players tend to play "dates", like today, the pick 3 combination 147 and pick 4 combination 0147 (14 of july[07] in any order) has been played quite heavily. So, go figure it out. I haven't had the time yet to do some investigations, but if not a single draw result in any pick 3 or pick 4 state, that uses a computer to draw the numbers, matched the exact date of the draw (day-month) at one point in time, then I suspect a "possibility" for fraud in computerised draws.

  Best regards,

   

  Stefan

  That's an awfully interesting observation.  One to bear in mind.

  Ought to also be a trip-wire for pick 5 RNG games.

  Gracias

  Jack

  Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

  It's about number behavior.

  Egos don't count.

   

  Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

   
• Bryan

  

  Mid-Missouri
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  Jul 15, 2006, 9:05 am

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  To give a perfect example of how easy it is to manipulate drawings with a so-called RNG was when they put out the game called "Xtra" Below is a little thing I posted about a year ago on the subject. How could there possibly be any trust when your first experience with RNG is a game they have fixed and admitted to it after being e-mailed on the subject. The fact that it was a fixed game was never listed on the website or the rules of the game or the cards to be filled out either. It only came to light when confronted with e-mail. They have already shown you they have the capability to manipulate the games however they see fit.

  Howdy All,

  We had a game here in MO that was very short lived. It was called "Xtra" It was an online game. You would buy a ticket online and then the machine would hesitate and then print out your ticket. It would play the tune "We're in the money" if you won. There was no mention on the MO website that this was a fixed game. How I knew there was something fishy was the fact you could pick your own numbers just like any normal Pick 3 and then you paid an extra buck for the chance at this Xtra game. One day I played doubles for my P3 and paid the extra dollar for the Xtra game. I had like 969 it gave me 343, I had 008 it had 117, I had 522 it had 688. For every double I had, it put a double in the same position. You only had to match one number to win $2 bucks back. After seeing this I came home and sent an e-mail to MO lottery and told them there was no way this was a random game. Thy told me I was correct. The randomness of the game was in who would purchase the ticket , not the game itself. They had complete control over the results of this online game, how much someone would win and in what location. I never played again and I told as many people as I could about it. The word must have got around fast.

  In the words of a friend of mine " that's just not right"

  Bryan  :)

   
• Rip Snorter

  

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  Jul 15, 2006, 9:21 am

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  Quote: Originally posted by Bryan on July 15, 2006

  To give a perfect example of how easy it is to manipulate drawings with a so-called RNG was when they put out the game called "Xtra" Below is a little thing I posted about a year ago on the subject. How could there possibly be any trust when your first experience with RNG is a game they have fixed and admitted to it after being e-mailed on the subject. The fact that it was a fixed game was never listed on the website or the rules of the game or the cards to be filled out either. It only came to light when confronted with e-mail. They have already shown you they have the capability to manipulate the games however they see fit.

  Howdy All,

  We had a game here in MO that was very short lived. It was called "Xtra" It was an online game. You would buy a ticket online and then the machine would hesitate and then print out your ticket. It would play the tune "We're in the money" if you won. There was no mention on the MO website that this was a fixed game. How I knew there was something fishy was the fact you could pick your own numbers just like any normal Pick 3 and then you paid an extra buck for the chance at this Xtra game. One day I played doubles for my P3 and paid the extra dollar for the Xtra game. I had like 969 it gave me 343, I had 008 it had 117, I had 522 it had 688. For every double I had, it put a double in the same position. You only had to match one number to win $2 bucks back. After seeing this I came home and sent an e-mail to MO lottery and told them there was no way this was a random game. Thy told me I was correct. The randomness of the game was in who would purchase the ticket , not the game itself. They had complete control over the results of this online game, how much someone would win and in what location. I never played again and I told as many people as I could about it. The word must have got around fast.

  In the words of a friend of mine " that's just not right"

  Bryan  :)

   

  Ineresting story. 

  Also interesting that you knew numbers behavior well enough to spot the scam and complain about it.

  A similar phenomenon finally caused me to cease playing New Mexico Roadrunner.

  Watching numbers long enough a person begins to see some behaviors that will always be manifested in legitimate game draws.  They might happen at different frequencies, might involve different number sets, but they always happen.

  When an RNG game (or any other game) absolutely defies those patterns and repeats ..... not because those patterns and repeats would allow prediction, (they wouldn't, necessarily), but because that is simply the way random numbers manifest themselves, the person watching must eventually conclude there's something else going on.

  J 

   

  Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

  It's about number behavior.

  Egos don't count.

   

  Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

   
• konane

  

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  Jul 15, 2006, 9:47 am

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  Quote: Originally posted by Rick G on July 14, 2006

  Remember when your Dad put a quarter in his hand and put his hands behind his back and asked "What hand is it in?" You picked one hand but the quarter was always in the other hand. Never could guess it right. After a while the old man wanted to play that game on you again and you said, "No way...it's a boring game because you always win and I hate you!" And you stomped up to your room never wanting to play the hidden quarter game again...not even with YOUR kids.

     

  That's exactly how RNG games make me feel so I voted "Not possible to assure an honest game with RNG."

  Can't be assured because someone could tweak the software producing winning numbers for a specific outcome  ...and that tweaking not discovered until much later during an audit .. if it's discovered/revealed at all. 

  Can't be assured because those drawings take place behind closed doors and away from the eye of the public.

  _______________

  Additionally I know I read it but can't backtrack to find it .... that one of the original "tests" run with RNG's is whether the human mind has any significant influence over results.  BoundaryInstitute.org has just such a test, among many others, which anyone can sign up and use for free.

  That being said it is probable but not proven that 1776 drawn on July 4 could be a bit more than happenstance.  They're still studying mind over matter and they jury is out  but it's not quite black helicopter material if someone has taken time to read research on the matter.  Sages have known it for thousands of years ... science is trying to render it to an experiment with a repeatable outcome to label it as fact. 

  Have fun and the best of luck to everyone!
• Just6ntlc

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  My vote is I don't play Random Number Generated games like Fantasy 5, Pick 3, and Daily Derby in CA. The only games I play are ball drawn games although there's a slight chance I play Quick Picks.
• orangeman

  

  Amarillo/Austin
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  Jul 15, 2006, 12:36 pm

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  There is high irony in this issue.  "Law-makers" are bashing the online casinos while representing states that might be even more corrupt.  The online casinos only use numbers drawn by the states that pick the numbers.  They have no influence over the selection process.  The states, on the other hand, may or may not be manipulating the drawings.  Very interesting.  Just remember the Texas Lottery's initials, TLC, don't mean Tender Loving Care . . .

  Orangeman                                               
• pumpi76

  

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  I doubt that states are rigging or tricking the games...I looked up rigging in the dictionary but didn't find the definition...The state don't need to trick people because there is something called: pre-testing, which i think all states do (for pick3 & pick4), that itself is playing with the possible history of the game...If the states can "rig" pick3, i believe so could someone in the outside...The thing about RnG is that the designer will have an advantage over everyone else, and I am in for that, again pick3 & pick4 games only, I don't support the idea of a RnG for pick5, or Pick6 games...For Keno yes [the game is too damn impossible]...Also I don't know how to explain it but RNG's pick3 games behave differently than the machine...The Rng follows like a path, while the machine doesn't...One example of the many...If 1-2-3-5 plays in draw number 18, it WILL NOT PLAY between draw number 18 to 27, but instead it will take a long cycle to come up again...I believe Rng's have like a sort of memory (provided they don't do pre-testing), of previous draws, while the machine doesn't...I believe that if states didn't do pre-testing with the machine we will see a pattern not visible before, like the pattern of repeated pick4 numbers (1-1-3-7) which in any game happen like half the time...Another example visible with RnG and that the machine doesn't have it...in a pick5 game 1-25, you see that at most 1 number will play from the previous draw...I don't know what's riggin but sometimes i believe the state perform pre-testing in a certain way to match their needs....Tell me something why would you need test the machine 6, 7 times? 2 should be enough...Another thing,
  Now if they use RnG they can't complaint that they need to do pre-testing for the RnG..Computers to me are 99.9% reliable and perfect...Have you ever Seen a Computerized CAlculator (they have them on the internet) fail, nope, you can punch in the numbers over and over time after time and it will not fail...
  I visited the website that makes the machine for lotteries, and i saw that 1 machine can cost you 70,000 dollars i think including maintenance...Up to today i question whether what i saw was right, because not even a car will run you that prize....The cheapest RnG I've seen cost 25 dollars...lol...However i think that for pick5 and pick6, a RnG will be more Random than the machine...I previously said that the machine is more random than the RnG but i was talking about pick3 & pick4...
       As it is today, the Round Crystal GumballMachine looking lotto machine i think they call it a hopper is more random Than if they had a Cylindrical or Squared GumballMachine looking lotto machine...
      Not only that, if they increased the size of the ping-pong looking lotto balls, and make then bigger, the machine will be less random...I am starting to drift...

     I am in favor of them putting a RnG for pick3, keno, Pick7 and Pick4...not for pick5, Powerball, and pick6....

   it doesn't matter how Random you make the RnG, it how high or low you set the odds....

   

  "Keno is "the demon who makes trophies of men".......you can't see it.....And it skins them..............from movie "Predator 1"....
  
  
• KY Floyd

  

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  Jul 15, 2006, 11:42 pm

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  Quote: Originally posted by stefan on July 14, 2006

  Hi everybody,

  I have been following this thread with objective eyes. Anyone knows that many lottery players tend to play "dates", like today, the pick 3 combination 147 and pick 4 combination 0147 (14 of july[07] in any order) has been played quite heavily. So, go figure it out. I haven't had the time yet to do some investigations, but if not a single draw result in any pick 3 or pick 4 state, that uses a computer to draw the numbers, matched the exact date of the draw (day-month) at one point in time, then I suspect a "possibility" for fraud in computerised draws.

  Best regards,

   

  Stefan

  Regardless of what you might find, there's alway a possibility of fraud, but how much does it take to raise a reasonable suspicion? There are all sorts of anomalies you could look for, but the nature of probability is that *anything* is possible, so just the occurrence of something improbable isn't enough to prove there's something other than the normal workings of probability going on.
  
  Many years ago New Jersey drew the same pick 3 number two days in a row and made a big deal out of investigating and checking all the equipment, but they should expect it to happen about every 3 years. That's also about how often you would expect the pick 3 number to match the date (in any specific format). Since there isn't a pick 3 match for dates later than the 9th in October, November or December there are only about 300 days a year in which a match is possible, so you'd expect it to happen about every 38 months. Most states with lotteries have been playing long enough that you'd expect the date to have been drawn a few times. Limiting the results to draws that have been done by computer will make the lack of match meaningless in some places, since the computer draws are still a relatively recent change. For pick 4 you could match every date of the year, but with 10,000 numbers to choose from you'd only expect it to happen about once every 27 years and 4 months. We're going to have to wait a bit longer before the absence of a matching date in pick 4 becomes significant.
• Rip Snorter

  

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  ▲▼
  Quote: Originally posted by KY Floyd on July 15, 2006

  Quote: Originally posted by stefan on July 14, 2006

  Hi everybody,

  I have been following this thread with objective eyes. Anyone knows that many lottery players tend to play "dates", like today, the pick 3 combination 147 and pick 4 combination 0147 (14 of july[07] in any order) has been played quite heavily. So, go figure it out. I haven't had the time yet to do some investigations, but if not a single draw result in any pick 3 or pick 4 state, that uses a computer to draw the numbers, matched the exact date of the draw (day-month) at one point in time, then I suspect a "possibility" for fraud in computerised draws.

  Best regards,

   

  Stefan

  Regardless of what you might find, there's alway a possibility of fraud, but how much does it take to raise a reasonable suspicion? There are all sorts of anomalies you could look for, but the nature of probability is that *anything* is possible, so just the occurrence of something improbable isn't enough to prove there's something other than the normal workings of probability going on.
  
  Many years ago New Jersey drew the same pick 3 number two days in a row and made a big deal out of investigating and checking all the equipment, but they should expect it to happen about every 3 years. That's also about how often you would expect the pick 3 number to match the date (in any specific format). Since there isn't a pick 3 match for dates later than the 9th in October, November or December there are only about 300 days a year in which a match is possible, so you'd expect it to happen about every 38 months. Most states with lotteries have been playing long enough that you'd expect the date to have been drawn a few times. Limiting the results to draws that have been done by computer will make the lack of match meaningless in some places, since the computer draws are still a relatively recent change. For pick 4 you could match every date of the year, but with 10,000 numbers to choose from you'd only expect it to happen about once every 27 years and 4 months. We're going to have to wait a bit longer before the absence of a matching date in pick 4 becomes significant.

  KYFloyd:

  Regardless of what you might find, there's alway a possibility of fraud, but how much does it take to raise a reasonable suspicion?

   12 of the 22 people who voted in this poll believe there's cause for suspicion. 

  They probably believe suspicion's reasonable. 

  They probably believe the reason their suspicions are reasonable is based upon the historical evidence that human beings have a weakness for theft, fraud, deceit, imbezzlement, whenever large amounts of money are involved.

  They've probably witnessed evidence of dishonesty in public officials.  (The State Treasurer of the State of New Mexico was indicted for absconding with public funds recently)

  The majority of the people who voted on this poll probably believe if there's no way to keep someone from getting a hand in the till, it's going to happen.

  And they evidently feel there's no way to keep it from happening, nor any way to detect it having happened, where RNG lotteries are concerned.

  The default position is that someone's going to steal it unless there's a solid, trustworthy, bulletproof barrier between the means lottery numbers are generated and the people who control the money.

  The default position is NOT that it isn't happening because it can't be proven that it IS happening.

   

   

  Do you believe there's a significant chance:

  One, or more states have rigged RNG games?	[ 2 ]	[9.09%]
  All RNG games are probably rigged	[ 7 ]	[31.82%]
  No state would do such a thing.	[ 1 ]	[4.55%]
  'Business' friends draw straws to see who wins?	[ 0 ]	[0.00%]
  RNG computers are a fig-newton of the imagination	[ 1 ]	[4.55%]
  Some states are probably honest sometimes	[ 0 ]	[0.00%]
  A majority of states run honest games	[ 3 ]	[13.64%]
  Not possible to assure an honest game with RNG	[ 4 ]	[18.18%]
  Possible to run an honest RNG game, but unlikely	[ 2 ]	[9.09%]
  Who are you kidding? I don't play RNG.	[ 2 ]	[9.09%]
  Total Valid Votes	[ 22 ]

   

   

  Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

  It's about number behavior.

  Egos don't count.

   

  Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

   
• Rip Snorter

  

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  Jul 16, 2006, 1:16 am

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  We have a civic duty, a responsibility as citizens to be skeptical of our public officials and of official institutions.

  If we fail to exercise that duty, that responsibility, we're committing a disservice to our officials and public servants. 

  Without a skeptical, mistrusting population we put an unreasonable degree of temptation in their paths.  A temptation to lie to us, steal from us, enslave us if thay can.

  They are humans.  We have a responsibility to believe they'll behave as humans behave.  We fail to do so on pain of being robbed, bamboozled, flimflammed at every turn.

   

  Absorb the good, ignore the bad, weigh the ugly.

  It's about number behavior.

  Egos don't count.

   

  Dedicated to the memory of Big Loooser

   
• pacattack05

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  ▲▼
  Quote: Originally posted by Rick G on July 14, 2006

  I can't edit, but Bellyache you have my vote for the best avatar on the site! Waiting for a "male" rendition of that one now.

  You must be talking about the Washington monument..........

                             

                                   

  Good Point.........Rick