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# When is something considered 'Hot'?

Topic closed. 56 replies. Last post 7 years ago by LANTERN.

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United States
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October 3, 2004
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 Posted: October 14, 2009, 10:10 am - IP Logged

Hi Ricky:

The term "hot" is what we would call a fuzzy logic term. A fuzzy logic term requires a "home made" definition, since there's no unique way to define the term. We all know what"equal" means. Given any two numbers we can immediately discern whether they are equal or not. Suppose we invent a new term, "almost equal". What does it mean when we say that A is "almost equal" to B? We'd have to come up with a home brewed definition of what "almost equal" means to answer the question. One such definition may be:  A is almost  equal to B if the absolute difference between A and B does not exceed 1. There are a myriad of ways we could give a definition to "almost equal".

As in the "almost equal" case, the same goes for the term "hot", with respect to short sums. I'd be inclined to base my definition of "hot" on expected value. So, for example, based on the last 50 draws each short sum has an expected number, N, of occurences.  For a given sum, if the number of occurences exceeded N by some number M, then that sum would be considered hot. What you are asking for is: Exactly what value should M have?  One way to answer the question is to try different values ( 3, 4, 5, 6 etc) and choose the one that would have led to making the largest profit over those past 50 draws. The bottom line is that no matter which method you choose to give a measure to "hot", it will most likely not function well as a global measure. That is, what "hot" means  in Texas, may only turn out to be what "warm" is in Connecticut(assuming you came up with a definition for warm).

Regards,

jayemmar

Switching between Fairfax, VA and Belgium
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July 29, 2005
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 Posted: October 14, 2009, 12:41 pm - IP Logged

Hi Ricky:

The term "hot" is what we would call a fuzzy logic term. A fuzzy logic term requires a "home made" definition, since there's no unique way to define the term. We all know what"equal" means. Given any two numbers we can immediately discern whether they are equal or not. Suppose we invent a new term, "almost equal". What does it mean when we say that A is "almost equal" to B? We'd have to come up with a home brewed definition of what "almost equal" means to answer the question. One such definition may be:  A is almost  equal to B if the absolute difference between A and B does not exceed 1. There are a myriad of ways we could give a definition to "almost equal".

As in the "almost equal" case, the same goes for the term "hot", with respect to short sums. I'd be inclined to base my definition of "hot" on expected value. So, for example, based on the last 50 draws each short sum has an expected number, N, of occurences.  For a given sum, if the number of occurences exceeded N by some number M, then that sum would be considered hot. What you are asking for is: Exactly what value should M have?  One way to answer the question is to try different values ( 3, 4, 5, 6 etc) and choose the one that would have led to making the largest profit over those past 50 draws. The bottom line is that no matter which method you choose to give a measure to "hot", it will most likely not function well as a global measure. That is, what "hot" means  in Texas, may only turn out to be what "warm" is in Connecticut(assuming you came up with a definition for warm).

Regards,

jayemmar

Hi jayemmar,

I have posted this question here on LP because i wanted to see what people would write about it.
Taking all the responses together and find some kind of "common ground".
Surely everyone must have their own opinion on the subject.

As it is now, a person that is used to play the pick 3 game, and takes a look at the statistics of a given item, can tell in a split second "oh, that item looks hot".
That is great, but i want to dig a little deeper here, and ask that person, "okay, can you tell why it seems hot to you, in detail, please?", or, "why does it fit the situation hot for you?".
Most people see a car driving by and say "WAW!!! what a great car!!!". And when you ask them, "why is that a great car", they think and think and can not come up with a reason, except "well, the looks of it feel great".

That is great for them, but of no value when projecting that into a larger model of "when does the looks of a car make you go WAW!!!?"

cheers
Ricky

lasas3

An onion a day keeps everyone away!!!

Switching between Fairfax, VA and Belgium
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 Posted: October 14, 2009, 12:42 pm - IP Logged

Gee Ricky......  Is it actually the "Standard "  you are trying to establish.

The standard for ....... a unit of intensity ?   How hot ?  How cold ? ....

Are you looking for .......a general consensus to form a standard of measurement ?

I think that's your focus .....   maybe.

Some starting point approaches to establishing units of intensity .....or standards could be found here:

Hi Chaz,

exactly, that is exactly what i am trying to find out, a general concensus, usable for the majority of people.

cheers
Ricky

lasas3

An onion a day keeps everyone away!!!

Switching between Fairfax, VA and Belgium
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 Posted: October 14, 2009, 12:44 pm - IP Logged

btw, to have so many pick3 players visiting LP, there are very, very few responses to this queest lol

lasas3

An onion a day keeps everyone away!!!

New Jersey
United States
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June 28, 2005
49746 Posts
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 Posted: October 14, 2009, 2:54 pm - IP Logged

Hi jayemmar,

I have posted this question here on LP because i wanted to see what people would write about it.
Taking all the responses together and find some kind of "common ground".
Surely everyone must have their own opinion on the subject.

As it is now, a person that is used to play the pick 3 game, and takes a look at the statistics of a given item, can tell in a split second "oh, that item looks hot".
That is great, but i want to dig a little deeper here, and ask that person, "okay, can you tell why it seems hot to you, in detail, please?", or, "why does it fit the situation hot for you?".
Most people see a car driving by and say "WAW!!! what a great car!!!". And when you ask them, "why is that a great car", they think and think and can not come up with a reason, except "well, the looks of it feel great".

That is great for them, but of no value when projecting that into a larger model of "when does the looks of a car make you go WAW!!!?"

cheers
Ricky

It's a response from the subconscience: Consciencely one can't put their finger on any one thing that makes the car great, because it's a composite of many factors at the subconscience level.

A mind once stretched by a new idea never returns to its original dimensions!

Heroic City
Indonesia
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February 2, 2006
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 Posted: October 14, 2009, 3:27 pm - IP Logged

well determine what "hot" little bit "tough" since there are only digit 0 to 9 in perimeter.

here are some simple stats for FL Cash 3

 Percentile skip count Overall Pos. hit skip skip count 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 0 208 3 30 1 1 2 3 3 4 7 16 43 38 30 26 10 7 11 5 3 3 1 220 2 31 1 1 2 2 3 4 6 18 57 31 26 21 19 5 5 5 5 3 2 218 4 23 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 14 42 46 16 23 12 11 8 5 9 1 3 198 1 43 1 1 2 3 4 5 8 17 43 35 20 17 20 10 9 10 5 2 4 236 2 37 1 1 1 2 3 4 6 22 57 37 26 18 15 7 3 5 1 6 5 224 1 50 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 15 50 39 19 20 15 5 10 6 1 4 6 177 9 6 1 1 2 3 4 6 8 17 35 33 20 13 16 8 10 8 6 0 7 237 7 7 1 1 1 2 3 4 7 13 60 33 27 17 8 12 7 5 5 3 8 205 1 50 1 1 2 3 3 5 7 19 50 34 29 17 12 12 7 6 2 5 9 237 6 13 0 1 1 2 3 4 6 15 55 33 17 22 16 13 5 7 4 2

and hot numbers would be 2 since reach skip 4 in 200 skip history (using last 720 draws) it shown 23 times or a quick looking compare hit with skip count, looking above chart for skip count it seem "hot" numbers are numbers that in last two draws eg: 358 .1

from above chart hot number are

 Percentile skip count Overall Pos. hit skip skip count 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 220 2 31 1 1 2 2 3 4 6 18 57 31 26 21 19 5 5 5 5 3 2 218 4 23 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 14 42 46 16 23 12 11 8 5 9 1 4 236 2 37 1 1 1 2 3 4 6 22 57 37 26 18 15 7 3 5 1 6 5 224 1 50 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 15 50 39 19 20 15 5 10 6 1 4 7 237 7 7 1 1 1 2 3 4 7 13 60 33 27 17 8 12 7 5 5 3 9 237 6 13 0 1 1 2 3 4 6 15 55 33 17 22 16 13 5 7 4 2

259 since it shown repeated or double indicate by 0 and 147 and for next draws number 1 or 4 will be appears

also if there are cloudy stats we might use bridge from digit string 3/4/5/6 "all for one and one for hit" lol

good luck

Et erunt signa in sole.......Et luna et stellis.......Et presura gentium
Prae confusione sonitus maris.

United States
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October 3, 2004
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 Posted: October 15, 2009, 10:58 am - IP Logged

Ricky:

Have you ever considered the use of neural networks in your quest to come up with an indicator for what is "hot"?  Neural networks are known to mimic the human brain.

jayemmar

Heroic City
Indonesia
Member #31689
February 2, 2006
1153 Posts
Offline
 Posted: October 18, 2009, 7:22 pm - IP Logged

well determine what "hot" little bit "tough" since there are only digit 0 to 9 in perimeter.

here are some simple stats for FL Cash 3

 Percentile skip count Overall Pos. hit skip skip count 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 0 208 3 30 1 1 2 3 3 4 7 16 43 38 30 26 10 7 11 5 3 3 1 220 2 31 1 1 2 2 3 4 6 18 57 31 26 21 19 5 5 5 5 3 2 218 4 23 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 14 42 46 16 23 12 11 8 5 9 1 3 198 1 43 1 1 2 3 4 5 8 17 43 35 20 17 20 10 9 10 5 2 4 236 2 37 1 1 1 2 3 4 6 22 57 37 26 18 15 7 3 5 1 6 5 224 1 50 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 15 50 39 19 20 15 5 10 6 1 4 6 177 9 6 1 1 2 3 4 6 8 17 35 33 20 13 16 8 10 8 6 0 7 237 7 7 1 1 1 2 3 4 7 13 60 33 27 17 8 12 7 5 5 3 8 205 1 50 1 1 2 3 3 5 7 19 50 34 29 17 12 12 7 6 2 5 9 237 6 13 0 1 1 2 3 4 6 15 55 33 17 22 16 13 5 7 4 2

and hot numbers would be 2 since reach skip 4 in 200 skip history (using last 720 draws) it shown 23 times or a quick looking compare hit with skip count, looking above chart for skip count it seem "hot" numbers are numbers that in last two draws eg: 358 .1

from above chart hot number are

 Percentile skip count Overall Pos. hit skip skip count 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 220 2 31 1 1 2 2 3 4 6 18 57 31 26 21 19 5 5 5 5 3 2 218 4 23 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 14 42 46 16 23 12 11 8 5 9 1 4 236 2 37 1 1 1 2 3 4 6 22 57 37 26 18 15 7 3 5 1 6 5 224 1 50 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 15 50 39 19 20 15 5 10 6 1 4 7 237 7 7 1 1 1 2 3 4 7 13 60 33 27 17 8 12 7 5 5 3 9 237 6 13 0 1 1 2 3 4 6 15 55 33 17 22 16 13 5 7 4 2

259 since it shown repeated or double indicate by 0 and 147 and for next draws number 1 or 4 will be appears

also if there are cloudy stats we might use bridge from digit string 3/4/5/6 "all for one and one for hit" lol

good luck

well i dunno if this "stats" help to understand what hot...? below stats for ontario pick 3 last 720 draws

 Overall Pos. skip count Percentile 648 hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 0 238 2 16 52 37 28 17 17 5 7 5 1 0 0 1 2 2 3 4 6 16 1 193 9 25 50 28 20 21 14 17 4 4 3 4 1 1 2 3 4 5 7 25 2 219 10 14 45 31 33 22 19 6 8 7 7 0 1 1 2 3 3 5 7 14 3 222 4 14 53 42 19 17 19 11 6 4 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 5 6 14 4 239 1 14 53 35 26 17 15 12 5 6 0 1 0 1 1 2 3 4 6 14 5 224 4 14 51 34 20 18 14 13 7 6 4 2 0 1 2 2 3 5 7 14 6 201 1 18 52 31 23 28 7 12 10 8 3 6 1 1 2 3 4 5 7 18 7 204 5 21 46 29 33 14 17 10 7 7 9 2 1 1 2 3 3 5 7 21 8 209 1 14 42 30 23 23 17 15 9 6 5 4 0 1 2 3 4 5 7 14 9 211 8 15 47 41 23 16 15 12 7 6 6 4 1 1 2 2 3 5 7 15 0345 460 2 skip count Digit String hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 412 9 8 99 45 27 13 8 3 3 1 0 0 19 404 8 8 88 53 29 15 8 3 1 2 0 0 29 430 8 9 86 53 31 15 6 4 1 2 1 0 max 04 477 1 8 91 63 24 8 9 1 2 1 0 0 avg 14 432 1 11 106 48 21 15 2 3 2 0 0 0 129 623 8 6 123 44 24 6 1 1 0 0 0 0 127 616 5 6 128 45 17 7 1 1 0 0 0 0 max 045 701 1 8 133 45 14 4 2 0 0 1 0 0 avg 134 654 1 4 137 44 15 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 min 167 598 1 6 116 48 22 11 0 2 0 0 0 0 1279 827 5 4 149 33 14 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 1235 858 4 6 158 34 5 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 max 0345 923 1 8 161 31 4 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 avg 1247 855 1 5 158 34 5 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 min 1678 807 1 5 143 43 11 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 Position 1 skip count Percentile 6 hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 0 90 3 34 10 15 11 7 7 4 6 4 2 2 1 2 3 5 7 10 19 34 1 66 19 47 9 4 4 2 6 4 7 2 2 4 1 3 5 7 10 15 24 47 2 77 10 36 12 5 7 3 4 4 5 5 0 4 1 3 5 7 10 14 17 36 3 70 15 45 5 2 5 2 11 4 5 4 3 3 3 5 6 8 10 14 18 45 4 66 4 52 7 4 6 4 2 4 6 3 2 3 2 3 6 8 11 15 22 52 5 72 7 55 11 4 7 5 2 5 3 3 1 3 1 3 5 7 11 14 17 55 6 70 1 65 12 5 6 7 1 4 3 6 1 4 1 3 4 7 9 15 22 65 7 65 29 62 6 2 7 7 6 0 2 3 2 5 2 4 5 8 11 14 21 62 8 69 2 36 3 6 5 4 7 6 3 4 2 2 2 5 6 8 11 15 19 36 9 75 8 37 8 5 4 7 5 5 5 3 4 3 2 4 5 7 10 13 18 37 023569 454 1 skip count Digit String hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 123579 425 7 7 128 46 17 7 0 0 1 0 0 0 123457 416 4 8 130 38 18 7 4 1 0 1 0 0 max 023569 454 1 6 127 42 18 5 3 4 0 0 0 0 avg 013568 437 1 6 119 47 18 10 3 2 0 0 0 0 min 134678 406 1 7 126 35 23 8 2 3 2 0 0 0 12379 353 8 8 104 45 29 12 4 3 1 1 0 0 12357 350 7 8 110 46 19 14 7 1 1 1 0 0 max 02359 384 3 8 110 44 22 9 8 5 0 1 0 0 avg 45789 347 2 10 100 53 24 10 6 1 2 0 2 1 min 13478 336 2 11 108 41 23 10 6 5 4 0 1 0 1237 278 10 23 91 36 30 16 10 6 5 2 0 2 1239 288 8 15 79 53 30 10 10 8 4 3 0 1 max 0259 314 3 12 91 47 24 15 5 7 4 5 0 0 avg 1589 282 2 9 69 59 29 16 14 5 2 2 3 0 min 1478 266 2 12 77 43 31 16 10 9 4 6 1 0 137 201 15 23 72 26 24 21 18 11 10 4 2 4 123 213 10 25 62 35 37 12 18 11 12 4 0 4 max 029 242 3 20 72 46 25 21 6 12 6 3 2 1 avg 048 225 2 17 63 48 23 17 14 11 6 7 4 0 min 147 197 4 17 62 33 31 13 16 11 7 8 4 1 Position 2 skip count Percentile 4 hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 0 66 3 38 6 3 4 4 9 3 6 2 2 1 2 5 5 7 12 16 22 38 1 61 24 49 6 3 7 3 4 8 3 2 1 3 2 3 6 6 10 12 25 49 2 60 16 41 3 4 5 2 6 1 4 4 3 2 2 5 7 9 14 19 23 41 3 79 11 37 11 9 3 8 6 4 4 7 0 2 1 3 4 6 8 14 20 37 4 92 1 51 11 11 3 11 9 6 5 4 4 6 1 3 4 6 8 10 14 51 5 90 4 44 7 8 10 8 6 8 5 3 7 6 2 3 5 6 9 10 13 44 6 68 15 57 8 4 3 8 7 3 3 6 3 2 1 4 5 7 9 14 19 57 7 79 56 28 9 4 9 7 4 5 4 6 6 1 1 3 5 7 9 12 18 28 8 66 2 52 5 6 4 2 7 8 5 3 1 2 2 5 6 7 10 14 24 52 9 59 9 43 1 4 4 6 3 4 3 5 2 1 3 5 7 8 13 17 26 43 034567 474 1 skip count Digit String hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 123679 406 9 6 105 57 23 9 4 1 0 0 0 0 123567 437 4 5 121 41 22 12 3 0 0 0 0 0 max 034567 474 1 5 124 52 16 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 avg 013468 432 1 9 134 42 14 6 1 0 1 0 1 0 min 012689 380 2 10 105 49 25 11 7 1 0 0 0 1 12367 347 11 9 90 58 25 11 12 2 0 0 1 0 12369 327 9 6 82 57 33 15 9 3 0 0 0 0 max 34567 408 1 5 109 48 26 14 2 0 0 0 0 0 avg 56789 362 2 9 97 52 24 14 6 3 1 1 1 0 min 01289 312 2 13 79 50 31 24 8 4 1 1 0 0 1267 268 15 13 73 46 26 17 22 6 4 1 2 1 1236 268 11 11 69 51 29 22 14 8 2 1 0 1 max 3457 340 1 9 92 45 28 15 13 3 2 0 1 0 avg 1689 254 2 12 72 52 29 8 11 12 8 4 1 0 min 0129 246 3 13 64 42 33 26 11 9 2 7 2 1 127 200 16 18 57 40 30 15 17 9 12 7 3 3 126 189 15 17 47 38 28 18 18 13 6 7 2 4 max 345 261 1 12 74 39 32 24 11 6 4 4 3 1 avg 058 222 2 15 51 48 29 21 19 12 8 1 3 2 min 129 180 9 16 42 31 32 19 15 9 6 5 5 5 Position 3 skip count Percentile 8 hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 0.100 0.250 0.375 0.500 0.625 0.750 0.875 1 0 82 2 37 8 11 4 7 9 4 6 3 5 1 2 3 5 6 8 12 19 37 1 66 9 46 7 3 4 4 7 4 4 5 2 5 2 4 5 7 10 13 23 46 2 82 14 46 8 3 9 3 10 9 3 4 3 3 2 4 5 6 9 12 16 46 3 73 4 38 6 4 4 11 3 6 5 1 5 3 2 4 6 7 10 13 20 38 4 81 36 34 9 10 7 9 3 2 9 5 3 3 1 3 4 7 8 11 20 34 5 62 17 46 9 4 2 3 4 4 7 3 4 1 1 4 6 7 9 15 26 46 6 63 7 97 4 5 2 2 1 5 9 4 4 3 2 6 7 9 11 13 20 97 7 60 5 50 6 1 3 5 5 3 2 5 5 4 2 5 7 9 10 15 21 50 8 74 1 46 13 6 4 7 3 2 9 4 0 4 1 3 4 7 8 13 21 46 9 77 12 41 7 10 11 5 1 4 4 2 4 2 2 3 4 7 9 13 19 41 023489 469 1 skip count Digit String hit skip max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 124569 431 7 8 64 23 7 1 3 0 0 1 0 0 124567 414 5 8 61 25 6 4 2 0 0 1 0 0 max 023489 469 1 5 67 19 11 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 avg 013578 417 1 6 54 28 7 7 2 1 0 0 0 0 min 135678 398 1 8 51 26 12 4 3 1 1 1 0 0 12459 368 9 9 56 25 11 3 2 1 0 0 1 0 12456 354 7 8 55 24 9 4 5 0 0 2 0 0 max 02489 396 1 7 56 25 11 4 2 0 1 0 0 0 avg 05679 344 2 9 44 14 19 13 3 2 0 1 3 0 min 13567 324 4 11 41 23 16 7 6 2 1 2 0 0 2459 302 12 10 46 27 12 5 4 1 2 0 1 1 1245 291 9 9 50 22 13 5 6 1 0 0 2 0 max 0249 322 2 8 49 22 16 5 4 2 0 1 0 0 avg 0269 304 2 11 42 19 19 3 11 1 0 1 1 1 min 1567 251 5 26 29 17 18 15 10 2 3 1 1 0 245 225 14 13 37 26 10 9 8 2 3 2 1 0 249 240 12 10 32 27 19 8 7 1 1 1 2 1 max 024 245 2 9 44 20 14 8 3 4 1 4 1 0 avg 015 210 2 12 26 18 16 14 9 2 3 7 1 1 min 567 185 5 28 27 14 15 13 10 3 3 3 4 1

found any way to define what hot?? x71  271  771 for next draws??

good luck

Et erunt signa in sole.......Et luna et stellis.......Et presura gentium
Prae confusione sonitus maris.

Tx
United States
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 Posted: October 19, 2009, 12:04 am - IP Logged

It was already said, but anything that happens more often that what the law of statistics says that it should can be taken as being hot, so let statistics define what is what, what might need a definition is how hot something is, in the same way, something that happens less often that it should is cold.

People don't have standard definitions of degrees of temperature in regard to lottery events.

What hot and cold are is not too hard to define.

"Ten measures of beauty descended to the world, nine were taken by Jerusalem."

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 Posted: October 19, 2009, 12:14 am - IP Logged

Personally, I do not know when a short sum root is hot or cold unless you see it in recent patterns. This problem with using a method like this is that you will lose much more than you will win. But, If you would like to know what filters I use to get an idea of what "Might" come out, I filter the day of the week, the draw (mid/eve), and the odd day or even day. I set it up this way in my spread sheet.

"Many Strategies|One Game"

Tx
United States
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 Posted: October 19, 2009, 12:36 am - IP Logged

Personally, I do not know when a short sum root is hot or cold unless you see it in recent patterns. This problem with using a method like this is that you will lose much more than you will win. But, If you would like to know what filters I use to get an idea of what "Might" come out, I filter the day of the week, the draw (mid/eve), and the odd day or even day. I set it up this way in my spread sheet.

Whatever works for you, a filter is a filter anything that helps to predict or reduce is.

"Ten measures of beauty descended to the world, nine were taken by Jerusalem."

Tx
United States
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 Posted: October 22, 2009, 1:06 am - IP Logged

LotSoft is very good software.

But for example, it would be nice if it had a way of entering past draws in a way such as Lotto Sorcerer has it is very nice and automatic, almost, you still have to enter the draw with the enter key.

Draws should be automaticaly entered after you enter the third digit for that draw and the date should have automatic advance as some lottery programs have, each state could have a profile of what days of the week it holds draws for each particular game so it woiuld know how to advance the draw date after you input the draws, that is the one single thing that LotSoft does not do so well.

Of course, some visual kinds of stats other than the ones that it already has, would make the program better for some or many people.

I find visual stats of as much help as the numbers stats, as to the filtered wheeler it is very good, but it still does not have a few filters that some even very older software has, including more suport for pairs filters.

I also didn't see the Tx pick 4 yet added to it, the online automatic update of the draws on the demo trial version didn't add Tx to the pick 4.

That was version 3.5.0.

I almost forgot, compound filters it has none of them, even Chaz and Bob use them.

"Ten measures of beauty descended to the world, nine were taken by Jerusalem."

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