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POLL - On The Whole Do The Lotteries Provide Truly Random Numbers?

Topic closed. 104 replies. Last post 6 years ago by Hermanus104.

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From Quick Picks to Winning Numbers, Are We Getting Truly Random Numbers from the Various Lotteries?

Yes [ 29 ]  [29.59%]
No [ 52 ]  [53.06%]
Don't know/Don't care/Doesn't matter to me [ 11 ]  [11.22%]
Other [ 6 ]  [6.12%]
Total Valid Votes [ 98 ]  
Discarded Votes [ 1 ]  
JonnyBgood07's avatar - Patriots logo1.jpg
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Posted: August 24, 2010, 5:18 pm - IP Logged

After 22 years studying chaos, it's apparent to me that there is no "one" definition for chaos and randomness. It has it's ebbs and flows. It has unlikely outcomes. It has harmony from time to time. It has too many variables.

Not that it CAN'T be predicted, but it will win in the long run if the person observing doesn't pick up on the nuances along the way. It's ever morphing, like the tides. The same combination of gasses in a given environment will never be the same. No two finger prints will ever match.

There is hope. Despite the gloom and doom, one can, and has, enable themselves with tools that can overcome chaos. After 22 years, yesterday i found the best version of the tools needed in the p-3. It was worth every penny of the 50 bucks I spent on getting that info, and I'm excited. It's been a while since I've been so excited about a p-3 system.

No matter what the officials do to throw the flow of numbers into a wild and seemingly unpredictable frame of reasoning, one thing will always overcome it. That is knowledge. Steve Player proved that right a while back, and so did the latest contender. The system which I endowed myself with yesterday.

Even manipulated machines have limits. Know how to exploit them, and chaos is irrelevant.

There will always be bias in all areas of life. Just have to spot the biases.

 

On The Whole Do The Lotteries Provide Truly Random Numbers?

Of course!

Why do alot of people insisit that since folks can pedict numbers then random ceases to exist or has lesser value.?

EXCERPT FROM jOKER 17::

"No matter what the officials do to throw the flow of numbers into a wild and seemingly unpredictable frame of reasoning, one thing will always overcome it. That is knowledge """

 

 

you hit the nail on the head there joker Cheers


"No matter how bad things may get, I'd like to thank my middle finger

for always sticking up for me.."

 


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    New Member

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    Posted: August 25, 2010, 4:33 pm - IP Logged

    I asked on another post about how come duplicate numbers show up on the last nr, the "Power Ball and MEGA Ball?  We seem to get more then we should when we buy four numbers on one ticket, and end up with same PB/MB nr. Am not discussing all numbers, just the Power/Mega Ball . The odds of the dulpictes are rather large, more so when we buy twice a week, and it happens at least three to four times a month, or about 8 buys per month and at least two of them,sometimes more have duplicates.


    Emailed lottery folks about it and they danced the issue.. as "Well must be SW in the stores machine, buy two then wait til someone else buys etc then you buy", whole thing was not responsive. Noted most replies to previous posts was not responsive or do not understand what is going down. Odds rather big to get TWO of same PB/MB on four buys, and for this to happen two of eight buys.

    But if "Store SW issue" was true, then it is known "Lottery Issue as duplicates PB/MB sure up the odds for lottery side of games. Also "store SW" does not seem to fly as it is "lottery SW". I kind of got impression they know of issue but not bothering.


    So am asking, again, has anyone else had this where they make four buys on one ticket and end up with duplicated PB/MB numbers more often then odd might suggest? That is question and most seem to miss I am just discussing ONE set of numbers, the PB/MB, not the whole selection by machines. Something seems broken..

      RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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      Posted: August 25, 2010, 9:05 pm - IP Logged

      If I was to sue, I would argue that Buying a ticket with a certain number of lines was buying a certain number of chances at various prizes.   If the numbers that the machine chose were identical or overlapped then I would not have received as many chances for my money as I would've had they be different.

      For example,  imagine a pick 6 game where the lowest value subsidiary prize was awarded for a 3/6 match.   The two tickets 1-2-3-4-5-6- and 1-2-3-4-5-7 would represent 30 chances at that lowest value prize while the two tickets 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 7-8-9-10-11-12 would represent 40 chances at that lowest value prize.   Shouldn't the first two tickets cost only 75% that of the second two tickets?

      Am I wagering the numbers or am I buying chances.   If I bought personal picks then clearly I'm wagering the numbers I believe would be drawn but if I'm buying QuickPicks then I'm obviously am after the chances to win and don't care about the numbers hence QuickPicks should have the option to not repeat and not overlap on a given ticket with multiple lines.   If the lottery commision sold me two lines on a ticket by QP that were 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1-2-3-7-8-9, they are shortchanging me because both tickets would have the 1-2-3 combination but if they were 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1-2-7-8-9-10 then there would be no 3 number overlap and hence I would get all the chances I could've possibly bought with my money.

      jwhou

       

      Thumbs UP..... 

       

      RL

      Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

      I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

      they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

      USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

        US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  

        RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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        Posted: August 25, 2010, 9:10 pm - IP Logged

        I asked on another post about how come duplicate numbers show up on the last nr, the "Power Ball and MEGA Ball?  We seem to get more then we should when we buy four numbers on one ticket, and end up with same PB/MB nr. Am not discussing all numbers, just the Power/Mega Ball . The odds of the dulpictes are rather large, more so when we buy twice a week, and it happens at least three to four times a month, or about 8 buys per month and at least two of them,sometimes more have duplicates.


        Emailed lottery folks about it and they danced the issue.. as "Well must be SW in the stores machine, buy two then wait til someone else buys etc then you buy", whole thing was not responsive. Noted most replies to previous posts was not responsive or do not understand what is going down. Odds rather big to get TWO of same PB/MB on four buys, and for this to happen two of eight buys.

        But if "Store SW issue" was true, then it is known "Lottery Issue as duplicates PB/MB sure up the odds for lottery side of games. Also "store SW" does not seem to fly as it is "lottery SW". I kind of got impression they know of issue but not bothering.


        So am asking, again, has anyone else had this where they make four buys on one ticket and end up with duplicated PB/MB numbers more often then odd might suggest? That is question and most seem to miss I am just discussing ONE set of numbers, the PB/MB, not the whole selection by machines. Something seems broken..

        Chuck2

        Many many times I have bought 2 sets for a pick-6 game and only had 8 different numbers

        of the 12 picked.  This should answer the question of  "is the game fair" and "is a QP better

        than a SP."

        RL

        Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

        I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

        they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

        USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

          US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  

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          Posted: August 25, 2010, 11:27 pm - IP Logged

          Sounds like you want the terminals to have programs that allow you to select parameters for the combinations it generates for you.  If that was an option then the combinations generated wouldn't be random.  You are allowed to generate combinations offline any way you want and fill out a play slip with them which allows you to pick combinations with any parameters you chose, when select to have the terminal pick them you give up those options.

          The interesting thing is that's not true in Canada.   With the Canadian Lotto Max, even if you select your own numbers on a playslip, you get one line with your selection and two quick pick selections, you have no choice, you always get the quick picks.   They do the multiple lines to give the desired prize structure.   People complained about the prize structure produced by American style pick 5 + bonus ball draws because it rendered the subsidiary prizes too small and too difficult to win.   They have one game in Western Canada where you pick a line of four numbers and the machine generates 14 lines of 4 numbers for you, again no way to choose all 15 lines yourself.

          As to the numbers not being random.   Am I paying for the randomness of the numbers or am I paying for the chances to win?   Selecting QP indicates that you do not care what the numbers are so what are you paying for and shouldn't you get what you paid for?   I'm just saying that if I was to sue a lottery commission, I would argue that their Quickpick shortchanged me on the number of chances to win which is what I'm really buying.   Of course the fact that you can assure yourself of receiving all the possible chances if you pick the numbers yourself would be an out for the lottery commissions.   An out that the Canadian lottery commissions wouldn't have.

            truecritic's avatar - PirateTreasure
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            Posted: August 26, 2010, 12:15 pm - IP Logged

            One advantage...

            If you get a couple of MM QPs with 5 numbers duplicated and they are the correct 5 numbers, then you win twice.

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              Posted: August 26, 2010, 12:24 pm - IP Logged

              One advantage...

              If you get a couple of MM QPs with 5 numbers duplicated and they are the correct 5 numbers, then you win twice.

              With that Western Canada PayDay game where you pick one line and it picks 14 lines for you.   It would be a big advantage to get duplicates of the winning number but on separate tickets.   If there's 5 top prize winners, instead of the grand a week for life (real life not a defined number of years) or $675,000 cash, they would split 2.7 million between the 5 tickets, unfortunately the odds of that happening with purely QP's would be (1/1,353,275)^5, it would be far easier and more lucrative to just win the PowerBall.

                eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
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                Posted: August 26, 2010, 6:28 pm - IP Logged

                Random Number Generator = Rigged Number Generator(S)

                With computers they can analyze all wagers and payout however they please.  They do this with computerized Keno.   They can do what ever they want with outcomes. 

                YOU MUST PLAY GAMES WITH BALLS!  BALLS ARE FREE OF SOFTWARE!  ALL BALLS FOREVER! 

                I Agree!

                Jarason, et al-

                You have it right, I have a trusted friend who is a tech supervisor for IGT in Vegas who woukld confirm all you say about computerized Video Keno machines, they can program them accordindingly. He says it's similar to 23 old telephone technology of simply pressing re-dial; phone memory recalls past numbers & PRESTO !                  Trick is when you win change machines.

                The slower Live Keno Parlor game  with live balls is surer (unless balls are defective)

                 

                Bonn Chance, 

                EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

                 

                 PS-

                The ostensible concept of a fair game is often an illusion Unhappy

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                  Posted: August 26, 2010, 7:27 pm - IP Logged

                  I Agree!

                  Jarason, et al-

                  You have it right, I have a trusted friend who is a tech supervisor for IGT in Vegas who woukld confirm all you say about computerized Video Keno machines, they can program them accordindingly. He says it's similar to 23 old telephone technology of simply pressing re-dial; phone memory recalls past numbers & PRESTO !                  Trick is when you win change machines.

                  The slower Live Keno Parlor game  with live balls is surer (unless balls are defective)

                   

                  Bonn Chance, 

                  EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

                   

                   PS-

                  The ostensible concept of a fair game is often an illusion Unhappy

                  The lottery commission here runs RNG Keno draws every 5 minutes.   It's just prime for someone with a lot of computers and a lot of storage to database several RC-4 runs and see if the sequences are matching any of them. You can probably assume it's just the Microsoft CryptGenRandom() call with a straight modulus add 1 operation.   Might take months before one matches your pre-generated runs but then you can have your computers SMS you with some likely numbers to come up in the next couple of hours and then you head straight for the nearest Casino to place the bets.   I wonder how many $100,000 wins you can get away with, it wouldn't be like you used any insider information, just some second hand server farm and just guessed at their algorithm.   The power usage of the server farm would be a killer though.   Maybe it would be better to farm it out to zombies on the Internet (virus compromised personal computers).   The code for the virus would be straight forward, fill a buffer with CryptGenRandom, modulus them and wait for your computers to broadcast a sequence to cross-correlate to it's list.   You get a match, send back sequence numbers roughly 48 iteration strides into the future and that sequence should pop up within 4 hours, each compromised machine could probably compare several thousand such lists and there's no need to co-ordinate who does which list, just pick them at random, there's plenty of compromised machines on the Internet.   If you're getting too many text messages, increase the match length to multiple concurrent draws (you'd want unlimited receive text on your phone service till you get it right).   Problem is those hackers charge for zombie compute time and how do you get the current draw numbers out to the zombies without leaving a trail to you or overwhelming the lottery commission's website with a DoS every 5 minutes.

                    JonnyBgood07's avatar - Patriots logo1.jpg
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                    Posted: August 26, 2010, 7:49 pm - IP Logged

                    On The Whole Do The Lotteries Provide Truly Random Numbers?

                    Of course!

                    Why do alot of people insisit that since folks can pedict numbers then random ceases to exist or has lesser value.?

                    EXCERPT FROM jOKER 17::

                    "No matter what the officials do to throw the flow of numbers into a wild and seemingly unpredictable frame of reasoning, one thing will always overcome it. That is knowledge """

                     

                     

                    you hit the nail on the head there joker Cheers


                    Here's a snipet of random in its cleanest form...look at the first position of Michigan eve 3 and it's relation to the 0094 drawn midday4.Notice the numerical regression that stemmed from the mid4 draw 0094

                    Thu, Aug 26, 20103-7-0
                    Wed, Aug 25, 20103-6-37-9-85-7-9-38-4-9-9
                    Tue, Aug 24, 20107-6-90-7-88-8-7-61-9-0-9
                    Mon, Aug 23, 20103-8-60-1-93-5-6-86-5-5-2
                    Sun, Aug 22, 20104-3-58-6-24-2-9-12-2-7-9
                    Sat, Aug 21, 20103-4-24-5-52-5-6-69-5-0-9
                    Fri, Aug 20, 20100-4-89-3-40-0-9-4

                    ...then tonight was a shoe-in for a 4 digit

                    Thu, Aug 26, 20103-7-04-7-6
                    Wed, Aug 25, 20103-6-37-9-85-7-9-38-4-9-9
                    Tue, Aug 24, 20107-6-90-7-88-8-7-61-9-0-9
                    Mon, Aug 23, 20103-8-60-1-93-5-6-86-5-5-2
                    Sun, Aug 22, 20104-3-58-6-24-2-9-12-2-7-9
                    Sat, Aug 21, 20103-4-24-5-52-5-6-69-5-0-9
                    Fri, Aug 20, 20100-4-89-3-40-0-9-4

                    "No matter how bad things may get, I'd like to thank my middle finger

                    for always sticking up for me.."

                     


                      jarasan's avatar - new patrick.gif
                      Harbinger
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                      Posted: August 26, 2010, 8:53 pm - IP Logged

                      I think the computerized KENO is the most egregious violator of human decency.  The statists that steal money from us in taxes........ also do it with RNG KENO,  just another way to get tax monies.   From what I understand the draws are done 5 games back with multiple RNG machines when the the next game is wagered they use the RNG'er computer (machine) RNG draw that would pay the least out for the wagers for the current game and that is the one (game shown and paid on)  they show in the present being drawn on screen,  it AIN"T EVEN LIVE!  We are on to this $h1T! Spread the word! PS in MD.

                      Mad

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                        Posted: August 26, 2010, 9:31 pm - IP Logged

                        I think the computerized KENO is the most egregious violator of human decency.  The statists that steal money from us in taxes........ also do it with RNG KENO,  just another way to get tax monies.   From what I understand the draws are done 5 games back with multiple RNG machines when the the next game is wagered they use the RNG'er computer (machine) RNG draw that would pay the least out for the wagers for the current game and that is the one (game shown and paid on)  they show in the present being drawn on screen,  it AIN"T EVEN LIVE!  We are on to this $h1T! Spread the word! PS in MD.

                        Mad

                        The way I see it is that they probably do the RNG Keno's for convenience and though it is vulnerable to abuse, there would be severe consequences if they were caught doing so hence there's unlikely to be a conspiracy at least not a organization wide one, individual techies probably have their own personal exploits that are probably easy to catch due to their insider status and hence they tend to be the suspects should there be any abnormalities.   However, RNG's present interesting opportunities for exploits by the player community both with and without social engineering.   I say, let them RNG the Keno till I figure out how to take advantage of it, then after a couple of days worth of wins, they can fix the problem, indeed they can hire me as a consultant on fixing the problem.   I don't mind an unfair Keno so long as it's unfair to my advantage.

                          jarasan's avatar - new patrick.gif
                          Harbinger
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                          Posted: August 26, 2010, 10:01 pm - IP Logged

                          The way I see it is that they probably do the RNG Keno's for convenience and though it is vulnerable to abuse, there would be severe consequences if they were caught doing so hence there's unlikely to be a conspiracy at least not a organization wide one, individual techies probably have their own personal exploits that are probably easy to catch due to their insider status and hence they tend to be the suspects should there be any abnormalities.   However, RNG's present interesting opportunities for exploits by the player community both with and without social engineering.   I say, let them RNG the Keno till I figure out how to take advantage of it, then after a couple of days worth of wins, they can fix the problem, indeed they can hire me as a consultant on fixing the problem.   I don't mind an unfair Keno so long as it's unfair to my advantage.

                          That is the problem...........they determine the outcome of the payout as history the game has been played already before the wagers are closed.  It is not just a couple of RNGers' it is a lot more than a couple,  I think it is close to 20 machines they can select from as the payout once the wagers are closed.  IT IS RIGGED YOU CAN"T BEAT IT.

                          You can try but they'll clean your pockets every way till Sunday and beyond..................... they know the outcome.

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                            Posted: August 26, 2010, 11:54 pm - IP Logged

                            That is the problem...........they determine the outcome of the payout as history the game has been played already before the wagers are closed.  It is not just a couple of RNGers' it is a lot more than a couple,  I think it is close to 20 machines they can select from as the payout once the wagers are closed.  IT IS RIGGED YOU CAN"T BEAT IT.

                            You can try but they'll clean your pockets every way till Sunday and beyond..................... they know the outcome.

                            I'm talking about the Keno run by lottery commissions not the networked VLT's.   The specific one I'm considering spans three commissions and the draw is done centrally, audited and then broadcasted to the Casinos, only one of the three jurisdictions require that Keno be limited to the Casino, the other two allow Keno to be played where-ever draw lotteries are played i.e.: convenience stores.   They are government commissions so it's reasonable to believe that both practically and politically, they will not base the draw machine choice on wagers placed.   The draws are every 5 minutes and hence the wagers can be placed virtually immediately before a draw leaving little time to do something across the system.   Once the machine has been chosen, it's unlikely to be changed for the day but that's not guaranteed.   They would only choose from perhaps 3 to 5 machines as would be the case with RNG draw lotteries such as Pick 3's.

                            It's not about beating it, it's about can we rig it.   I'm not planning on wagering any significant amount of money till a strategy can be demonstrated and if the strategy works, a significant wager would not be needed.   Its not like we're wheeling.


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                              Posted: August 27, 2010, 12:12 am - IP Logged

                              I'm talking about the Keno run by lottery commissions not the networked VLT's.   The specific one I'm considering spans three commissions and the draw is done centrally, audited and then broadcasted to the Casinos, only one of the three jurisdictions require that Keno be limited to the Casino, the other two allow Keno to be played where-ever draw lotteries are played i.e.: convenience stores.   They are government commissions so it's reasonable to believe that both practically and politically, they will not base the draw machine choice on wagers placed.   The draws are every 5 minutes and hence the wagers can be placed virtually immediately before a draw leaving little time to do something across the system.   Once the machine has been chosen, it's unlikely to be changed for the day but that's not guaranteed.   They would only choose from perhaps 3 to 5 machines as would be the case with RNG draw lotteries such as Pick 3's.

                              It's not about beating it, it's about can we rig it.   I'm not planning on wagering any significant amount of money till a strategy can be demonstrated and if the strategy works, a significant wager would not be needed.   Its not like we're wheeling.

                              Unless the techies at the lotteries are dummies, which I seriously doubt, I think it's very unrealistic to believe an exploit of a rigged Draw is [reasonably] possible in a time critical situation.  JMHO.