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Topic closed. 36 replies. Last post 6 years ago by jimmy4164.

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Zeta Reticuli Star System
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Posted: January 29, 2011, 2:23 am - IP Logged

I never saw any of that. Usually when a casino doesn't want someone playing a certain game they will send plain clothes security to tell them they can play any other game in the house, or if they're suspect or known cheats they'll ask them to quietly leave the casinos and let them know they or the uniformed guys will be following them to the door.

I broke in in the late 1970s and saw the tail end of the old days. The old time bosses pretty well knew all the players. We had people come in who were allowed to play anything but roulette. Most of them were known past posters.

The signal for the dealers to shuffle at the Barbara Coast used to be the floorman kicking them.

Those who run the lotteries love it when players look for consistency in something that's designed not to have any.

Lep

There is one and only one 'proven' system, and that is to book the action. No matter the game, let the players pick their own losers.

    eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
    LAS VEGAS
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    Posted: January 29, 2011, 6:12 pm - IP Logged

    Hi Eddessaknight,

    My question is a little late and slightly off topic but this seems like the most appropriate context for it.

    In the past, when I'd see movies or read news items that dealt with the rough treatment received by alleged "cheaters" in casinos, I could always see how they could justify banning the kinds of activities I see described here, hidden cameras, collaborating teams, etc., etc.  However, I could never understand the "rationale" for calling card counting in Blackjack "cheating" if a lone player had the mental capacity to do it successfully on their own without any technological help.  So, my question is, what was[is] the legal  "rationale" that casinos use[ed] to insist that a player purposely forget what cards have been played?

    I understand counting is not as vigorously banned as in the past, which probably accounts for the adoption of the "countermeasure" of huge shoes of cards, so I guess my first question refers more to the past.

    Thanks,

    --Jimmy4164

    Hello Jimmy,

    Sorry for the inadverdant slow reponse as my biz activities occupy most of my time & keeps me from posting daily.

    "I could never understand the "rationale" for calling card counting in Blackjack "cheating" ~Jimmy

    Frankly it's not just the counting system but  any methodology that gives a player a systematic advantage over the game becomes automatically suspect. And it can be    St Lebowitz with a halo over his head, if he has found a way to overcome the odds legally or not; the pitt boss will want to know what went wrong with the game when the hold is not according to the expected negative edge.

    There once was an outrageously successful rouge BJ master & author by the name of Kenny Uston, he was a former VP of the Pacific Coast Stock market and legendary counter & won lots in Atlantic City & Vegas. He vigorously opposed the casinos attempts to make car counting illegal in New Jersey Courts and won (even though casino personell were covertley shadow counting behind the scenes). Anyway the casino proceded attemptded to counteract by changing the rules by using a 6 deck and earlier shuffling points in the deck. Bye the bYe, another gaming genius by the name Billy Walters Syndicate took millions by legally finding& playing  biased roulette wheels in NJ & LV. There are so many stories & our friends here who were 'house dealers' for the casino can share even more tricks of the trade when they chose to do so and when my posts are note edited or deleted.....

    Meantime Uston on his BJ Odyssey comes back to Vegas and sets up shop as "The 21 Institute" at the Jockey Club giving seminars to aspiring counters during the day and playing at night. He was so famous or infamous by casino standards that Ceaser's Palace actually made a deal with him. Kenny was only aloud to win up to $5000 & quit. Meantime Uston's presence was being cleverly advertised to increase onlookers & players who promptly started losing so Uston so it became like Barnum & Bailey most everyone was losing but Ken stuffed his pockets on his way back ASAP via cab to the Jockey Club. The casino also did not want to deal with a court fight whereas most people see the fairness issue as you do. Outcome : counting is legal but frowned upon and many winning players get exited - newspapers & Gaming Control Board have stacks of documented evidence. Note worthy the high tech automatic shuffling machine by ShuffleMaster make the difficult counting even harder

    BOTTOM LINE SUMMARY:

    "Blessed Saint Leibowitz, keep 'em dreamin' down there....." ~John 

    The casino mentality has it they are in the biz of making money & it's the players who gamble not the house. So you enter their property taking your chances against a casino all star team; a stacked deck or losing proposition; this is offered to the guest as a form of entertainment & not an opportunity to make regular withdrawels as if its a bank or a living. Sure its' possible to hit a lucky streak now & then but question to the casino is how did you win more so then how much. Once you have identifed as an advantage player you & your game plan will be resisted, thwarted or barred with all necessary (sometimes ugly) means and the police will back them. Even THE GREAT Professor Ed Thorp (see Beat the Dealer) would have a difficult time in today's tight market Actually Prof Ed only played BJ for a short run, enough to prove his theory but he disdained the heat & casino culture opting to put brains to work on Wall St.and made millions.

     

    Good Luck,

    EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

    PS-

    There is always two sides of the table, as a 20 year veteran @ gambling ground zero, I am speaking  (imperfectly but earnestley) from the player's side (advocate)

     

      Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg
      Zeta Reticuli Star System
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      Posted: January 29, 2011, 9:41 pm - IP Logged

      edessaknight,

      The casino industry, "the business", considered Beat the Dealer as having done more to increase blackjack play than anything else ever, up to that point. That book made the game more popular than it ever had been.

      Those who run the lotteries love it when players look for consistency in something that's designed not to have any.

      Lep

      There is one and only one 'proven' system, and that is to book the action. No matter the game, let the players pick their own losers.

        eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
        LAS VEGAS
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        Posted: January 30, 2011, 4:59 pm - IP Logged

        edessaknight,

        The casino industry, "the business", considered Beat the Dealer as having done more to increase blackjack play than anything else ever, up to that point. That book made the game more popular than it ever had been.

        CT, et al-

        100% agreed as all the rank amatur visting players fantasize about easy money. but 'the business' still took precautionary insurance bet by changing the rules of the game further in favor of the house and against the 'sucker'. These measures have decreased the fun that the transient entertainment players previouisly enjoyed.

        National TV poker exposure ,to some extent, has had the same effect  as the book bringing more naive money players into the pot and don't seasoned pros love having them for lunch!

        No Free Lunches, it's a jungle out there >>>>>

        EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

        PS-

        CT you may have not seen any of the nasty stuff, but eye in the sky has + witneses


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          Posted: January 31, 2011, 12:09 am - IP Logged

          CT, et al-

          100% agreed as all the rank amatur visting players fantasize about easy money. but 'the business' still took precautionary insurance bet by changing the rules of the game further in favor of the house and against the 'sucker'. These measures have decreased the fun that the transient entertainment players previouisly enjoyed.

          National TV poker exposure ,to some extent, has had the same effect  as the book bringing more naive money players into the pot and don't seasoned pros love having them for lunch!

          No Free Lunches, it's a jungle out there >>>>>

          EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

          PS-

          CT you may have not seen any of the nasty stuff, but eye in the sky has + witneses

          EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

          "CT you may have not seen any of the nasty stuff, but eye in the sky has + witneses"

          With the advances in technology we've all witnessed, it should now be possible for a BJ player to come equipped with surgically implanted speakers in their ears, wide angle web cams in their glasses, communicating with a super computer in a nearby van, thereby counting and playing with an edge of perfection!  Can I assume the large number of cards now in play and the frequent shuffling have been shown through computer simulation to be sufficient countermeasures to defeat even this level of "assisted" play?  Smiley

          On the "nasty stuff" issue, it's puzzling to me that casinos didn't take the countermeasure approach earlier rather than test the legal system.

          --Jimmy4164

            eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
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            Posted: January 31, 2011, 5:05 pm - IP Logged

            EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

            "CT you may have not seen any of the nasty stuff, but eye in the sky has + witneses"

            With the advances in technology we've all witnessed, it should now be possible for a BJ player to come equipped with surgically implanted speakers in their ears, wide angle web cams in their glasses, communicating with a super computer in a nearby van, thereby counting and playing with an edge of perfection!  Can I assume the large number of cards now in play and the frequent shuffling have been shown through computer simulation to be sufficient countermeasures to defeat even this level of "assisted" play?  Smiley

            On the "nasty stuff" issue, it's puzzling to me that casinos didn't take the countermeasure approach earlier rather than test the legal system.

            --Jimmy4164

            Thanks for your continuing interest, Jimmy-

            Vegas is a entertainment & magical mecca where the hand is hired to be faster then the eye. often amateur magicitans are employed because of their abilities to effectively deal with the cards,,,,,a second card can be dealt out of the shoe, with you looking at it, and you wouldn't have a clue, so just imahine the possibilities with a hand held deck.

            Have observed to a number of major fights booked at the MGM Garden, Las Vegas and this is what I learned that fits into the Vegas magic: the punch that knocks out the opponent is never the one he expects. - it's called misdirection Wink

            "test the legal system" ~Jimmy

            Litegation process provides a nice source of income for the LV legal eagle circles, especially for one casino defeating champion Esquire

             

            Keep your eyes wide open for illusionists, appearances are rarely what they seem Confused

            EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

              eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
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              Posted: February 3, 2011, 6:52 pm - IP Logged

              Thanks for your continuing interest, Jimmy-

              Vegas is a entertainment & magical mecca where the hand is hired to be faster then the eye. often amateur magicitans are employed because of their abilities to effectively deal with the cards,,,,,a second card can be dealt out of the shoe, with you looking at it, and you wouldn't have a clue, so just imahine the possibilities with a hand held deck.

              Have observed to a number of major fights booked at the MGM Garden, Las Vegas and this is what I learned that fits into the Vegas magic: the punch that knocks out the opponent is never the one he expects. - it's called misdirection Wink

              "test the legal system" ~Jimmy

              Litegation process provides a nice source of income for the LV legal eagle circles, especially for one casino defeating champion Esquire

               

              Keep your eyes wide open for illusionists, appearances are rarely what they seem Confused

              EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

              Party

              Gung Hay Fat Choy:

              HAPPY & LUCKY WISHES FOR CHINESSE NEW YEAR OF THE RABBIT

               

              May Heaven's Gateway oprn with Good Fortune Blessings for all Games & All Players !!!

              EddessaKnight Sun Smiley


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                Posted: February 3, 2011, 10:55 pm - IP Logged

                Party

                Gung Hay Fat Choy:

                HAPPY & LUCKY WISHES FOR CHINESSE NEW YEAR OF THE RABBIT

                 

                May Heaven's Gateway oprn with Good Fortune Blessings for all Games & All Players !!!

                EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

                Parimutuel concepts notwithstanding, it's a nice thought, and I second the motion !!!

                  Coin Toss's avatar - shape barbed.jpg
                  Zeta Reticuli Star System
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                  Posted: February 4, 2011, 6:00 pm - IP Logged

                  Thanks for your continuing interest, Jimmy-

                  Vegas is a entertainment & magical mecca where the hand is hired to be faster then the eye. often amateur magicitans are employed because of their abilities to effectively deal with the cards,,,,,a second card can be dealt out of the shoe, with you looking at it, and you wouldn't have a clue, so just imahine the possibilities with a hand held deck.

                  Have observed to a number of major fights booked at the MGM Garden, Las Vegas and this is what I learned that fits into the Vegas magic: the punch that knocks out the opponent is never the one he expects. - it's called misdirection Wink

                  "test the legal system" ~Jimmy

                  Litegation process provides a nice source of income for the LV legal eagle circles, especially for one casino defeating champion Esquire

                   

                  Keep your eyes wide open for illusionists, appearances are rarely what they seem Confused

                  EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

                  edessaknight,

                  Every sleight of hand person I ever so working in a casino didn't last long. Most did it as a hobby or were striving to become magicians.

                  The casino thinking on this is (and right they are) that anyne displaying any ability with this is eventually going to be "swinging with chips" off the table,. i.e., stealing from the house.

                  Back in the days before electronic surveillance and when along with the "eye in the sky" on catwalks above the games and the "eye in the rug*" prevailed some houses employed "mechanics" but that wsas then, in the days of single deck games.

                  *The "eye in the rug" were either casino employees or spys who worked for the casino and roamed the floor looking for anything "ace deuce" going on. Anything in Vegads that isn't straight is "ace deuce".

                  Those who run the lotteries love it when players look for consistency in something that's designed not to have any.

                  Lep

                  There is one and only one 'proven' system, and that is to book the action. No matter the game, let the players pick their own losers.

                    eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
                    LAS VEGAS
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                    Posted: February 9, 2011, 7:45 pm - IP Logged

                    edessaknight,

                    Every sleight of hand person I ever so working in a casino didn't last long. Most did it as a hobby or were striving to become magicians.

                    The casino thinking on this is (and right they are) that anyne displaying any ability with this is eventually going to be "swinging with chips" off the table,. i.e., stealing from the house.

                    Back in the days before electronic surveillance and when along with the "eye in the sky" on catwalks above the games and the "eye in the rug*" prevailed some houses employed "mechanics" but that wsas then, in the days of single deck games.

                    *The "eye in the rug" were either casino employees or spys who worked for the casino and roamed the floor looking for anything "ace deuce" going on. Anything in Vegads that isn't straight is "ace deuce".

                    PLAY NO EVIL-

                    Hey CT et al , do appreciate your contuning interest albeit often in loyal defense of the casino business.

                    Regarding sleight of hand personell of the past, I personally know a " stopper" I am sure you know of such. This amiable & highly talented house dealer is at the ready when players who by luck or by pluck are on a winning streak and pit rotates them into deal so as to change their luck and there are wheel burner croups who are known to clean a roulette table in 30 min. Perhaps you haven't 'eye' witnessed any "coolers" in action but they have & do secretly exsist although not usually talked about openly.

                    Heat - Intensive scrutiny of a player's action to determine if he has an edge either due to cheating or expertise. Casinos turn up the heat if you seem to be winning too frequently or in big amounts. As one thing is certain, they can't or wont give back the money.

                    No doubt there is chaeting on both sides of the tables setting up a challenging cat & mouse game 24/7 for security.

                    I do agree with you on the need for order & security for the biz bottom line we differ on the over zealous intentions which hurt innocent legitamate players, it isn't the odds, it's those extra little dirty secrets....

                    FOLKS IT"S NOT A FAIRGAME

                     

                    Good Luck,

                    EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

                      eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
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                      Posted: February 9, 2011, 8:53 pm - IP Logged

                      I never saw any of that. Usually when a casino doesn't want someone playing a certain game they will send plain clothes security to tell them they can play any other game in the house, or if they're suspect or known cheats they'll ask them to quietly leave the casinos and let them know they or the uniformed guys will be following them to the door.

                      I broke in in the late 1970s and saw the tail end of the old days. The old time bosses pretty well knew all the players. We had people come in who were allowed to play anything but roulette. Most of them were known past posters.

                      The signal for the dealers to shuffle at the Barbara Coast used to be the floorman kicking them.

                      rtuyooo


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                        Posted: February 10, 2011, 12:16 am - IP Logged

                        PLAY NO EVIL-

                        Hey CT et al , do appreciate your contuning interest albeit often in loyal defense of the casino business.

                        Regarding sleight of hand personell of the past, I personally know a " stopper" I am sure you know of such. This amiable & highly talented house dealer is at the ready when players who by luck or by pluck are on a winning streak and pit rotates them into deal so as to change their luck and there are wheel burner croups who are known to clean a roulette table in 30 min. Perhaps you haven't 'eye' witnessed any "coolers" in action but they have & do secretly exsist although not usually talked about openly.

                        Heat - Intensive scrutiny of a player's action to determine if he has an edge either due to cheating or expertise. Casinos turn up the heat if you seem to be winning too frequently or in big amounts. As one thing is certain, they can't or wont give back the money.

                        No doubt there is chaeting on both sides of the tables setting up a challenging cat & mouse game 24/7 for security.

                        I do agree with you on the need for order & security for the biz bottom line we differ on the over zealous intentions which hurt innocent legitamate players, it isn't the odds, it's those extra little dirty secrets....

                        FOLKS IT"S NOT A FAIRGAME

                         

                        Good Luck,

                        EddessaKnight Sun Smiley

                        It's in the genes!

                        It's such a shame that the world doesn't seem to be able to function without crime and corruption.  I've been to foreign government offices where you had to pay a bribe if you expected to finish your business there in any reasonable period of time.    Although there are places in the world where you can leave an expensive bicycle or camera unattended and in full view, and return hours later to find it undisturbed, across the board, there really are a lot of thieves in the world!  Research has been conducted to look into this many times, and unfortunately, it looks like it can be explained, at least in part, with biology and genetics.  A corollary to this is that, apparently, situations exist where deceitful behaviour has certain adaptive aspects.  Anthropology, biology, and genetics encompass a vast domain, far beyond what we have the time or patience to deal with here.  However, I just thought I'd mention this in passing as we discuss the idea of a "Fair Game!"

                        http://cooley.libarts.wsu.edu/soc3611/soc%20361%20summer%202008/BiologicalBasisCrime.pdf

                        If you end up reading the whole study, that's great, but I don't really expect you to; it's specialized research.

                        I mainly provide this citation so you don't think I made this up!  Smile


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                          Posted: February 10, 2011, 1:17 pm - IP Logged

                          For a technical reason unknown to me, the link to Washington State Unversity above is unusable.

                          Try this one:

                          http://cooley.libarts.wsu.edu/soc3611/soc%20361%20summer%202008/BiologicalBasisCrime.pdf


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                            Posted: February 10, 2011, 1:41 pm - IP Logged

                            For a technical reason unknown to me, the link to Washington State Unversity above is unusable.

                            Try this one:

                            http://cooley.libarts.wsu.edu/soc3611/soc%20361%20summer%202008/BiologicalBasisCrime.pdf

                            Lotterypost.com is inserting 'rel="nofollow external"' into my HTML, even after I edit it out.  So, if you want to view the Washington State University study you will have to copy and paste the URL into a separate instance of your browser.

                            http [colon-slash-slash] cooley [dot] libarts [dot] wsu [dot] edu [slash] soc3611 [slash] soc%20361%20summer%202008 [slash] BiologicalBasisCrime [dot] pdf

                            I suppose this problem could be associated with my Firefox browser, but I've not experienced THIS problem before.

                            ?

                              eddessaknight's avatar - nw paladin.jpg
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                              Posted: February 11, 2011, 3:19 pm - IP Logged

                              Lotterypost.com is inserting 'rel="nofollow external"' into my HTML, even after I edit it out.  So, if you want to view the Washington State University study you will have to copy and paste the URL into a separate instance of your browser.

                              http [colon-slash-slash] cooley [dot] libarts [dot] wsu [dot] edu [slash] soc3611 [slash] soc%20361%20summer%202008 [slash] BiologicalBasisCrime [dot] pdf

                              I suppose this problem could be associated with my Firefox browser, but I've not experienced THIS problem before.

                              ?

                              Thanks Jimmy, I finally got it and a most worth while read for those inclined towards fiorensic invetigation-

                              "Biology Is Not Destiny...."                                                                                                                                                  ~Adrian Raim"Biological Basis of Crime"

                              Raim makes a sensible presenation in that chapter but so do others; paraphrasing Harvard's Prof Wilson "On Human Nature"

                              "People are born left handed...."

                              How many intangaibles remain unknown just as in horseracing with perhaps 28 accepted inluencing factors & still diificult to predict because of the unknown factors.

                              We are all stupid," wrote Mark Twain, "just on different subjects." Ain't that the truth? Sometimes I get overwhelmed when I think about all the blanks in my education and the ignorance that pockmarks my understanding/

                              "Avaritia facit bardus" - Greed makes you stupid.

                              Maybe the nature of gaming.....maybe where ever lots of money is involved in any form of speculation

                              Perhaps that's why moral And when talking gamingCodes of behavior for society security  must take prescident over psychological analysis.

                              "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
                              ~Albert Einstein

                              And denial (not EgyptWink) is one of the sacred rules in the gaming mecca When talking about LV & perhaps everything else in life:

                              "It ain't what youdon't know thatgets you into trouble....it's what you know for sure that just aint so."                                 ~Mark Twain

                              Note Bene:                                                                                                                                                                                  I just want to express my delight of having a rational man who makes sense communicating openly on this thread. Others exisist but prefer to remain anonomous behind PM's & Emails

                              Vox Clamantis in Deserto" (Voice crying in the Nevada Deserto).

                              EddessaKnight Sun Smiley