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Do Rng Computers Know What Numbers Not To Pick?

Topic closed. 57 replies. Last post 7 months ago by Tialuvslotto.

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Kentucky
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February 14, 2006
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Posted: April 15, 2016, 5:11 pm - IP Logged

There are two things that should be clear. One is that when speaking about any form of gambling "the house" refers to the entity that runs the game(s) and has the advantage due to the odds being in favor of the house.

The other is that "cyber security" is a broad term that refers to all aspects of security. Even if it was specific to networks or the internet in particular, I'm pretty sure the South Dakota lottery has networked computers in addition to their RNG machines.Perhaps you'll recall the recent incident with the CT lottery having unexpectedly large payouts because they had a system that let  retailers check to see if a ticket was a winner before it was actually sold.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought it was also obvious from the article about the South Dakota lottery that the guy referenced is pretty clueless.

"The other is that "cyber security" is a broad term that refers to all aspects of security. "

True, but the question here "is there a cyber link between an RNG drawing the numbers and another computer tabulating the combinations played" and if so, is the RNG programmed to not to draw combinations that would create huge payoffs. SD only has one drawn game which uses an RNG and to save a dollar they may have linked it the main computer to record the drawing results instead of having an official do it.

The article (Lottery rigging scandal prompts security audit in South Dakota) says the South Dakota Lottery was running a security audit because of the Iowa Hot Lotto rigging. The first five words in the article explains where the rigging took place "The scandal unfolding in Iowa" so it's certainly not about the CT scandal.

"Maybe it's just me, but I thought it was also obvious from the article about the South Dakota lottery that the guy referenced is pretty clueless."   

The only thing obvious in the article is the lottery commission saw a presentation on cyber security by the state Bureau of Information and Telecommunications. If they're worried about their Dakota Cash game being hacked, it is because the RNG is on a net. If not, watching the presentation had nothing to do with the Iowa scandal.

It's all speculation.

    alsports2000's avatar - 23606770150900
    Pharr, Texas
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    Posted: May 2, 2016, 2:56 pm - IP Logged

    They programmed to give out #'s, that's it. Whether they hit or not is entirely up to you & chance.

    At least in TX. I think the TLC waits until all the numbers are in and then they run their super computers to determine what combinations the public is playing and then they formulate one that is not been played by anyone and thus they keep all the money that people bet.  That's why even when the Powerball/Megabillions is very high its always an out of state winner. That's just my opinion. Same thing of the other games..Can you believe I've never won on the Daily 4 since its inception?. Why?.Conehead

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      Posted: May 2, 2016, 3:02 pm - IP Logged

      Alsport2000,

      They do the same in North Carolina.  The reason, as you said in your last sentence "that you have never won the Daily 4" --- is very well explained in the first sentence.  Great job on the explanation. I don't like RNG.  I think it is unfair.

      NC has All or Nothing -- I quit playing in less than a month.  Nearly every day there is a nearly balanced number of even or odd numbers: 6 to 6, 7 to 5, etc.  All with the cheapest return - there have been fewer than 5 (perhaps only 3 that I call) big winners.  Not worth wasting $2 on.

      So good luck--let's find a better game with better chances.  I don't mind playing some games--but darn, I at least want to feel like I have a chance at winning. 

      Dk  Smash

        alsports2000's avatar - 23606770150900
        Pharr, Texas
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        Posted: May 2, 2016, 3:17 pm - IP Logged

        Alsport2000,

        They do the same in North Carolina.  The reason, as you said in your last sentence "that you have never won the Daily 4" --- is very well explained in the first sentence.  Great job on the explanation. I don't like RNG.  I think it is unfair.

        NC has All or Nothing -- I quit playing in less than a month.  Nearly every day there is a nearly balanced number of even or odd numbers: 6 to 6, 7 to 5, etc.  All with the cheapest return - there have been fewer than 5 (perhaps only 3 that I call) big winners.  Not worth wasting $2 on.

        So good luck--let's find a better game with better chances.  I don't mind playing some games--but darn, I at least want to feel like I have a chance at winning. 

        Dk  Smash

        Thanks for taking the time to respond. I was at the DR.'s office Saturday and was watching a program on TV about the best oysters in the world that are grown in either North or South Carolina. I want to go there some day. I think I won $50 on an all or nothing game when it first started. Have not played it since. I think and this is just me, the pick 3 is the one to play. A one dollar bet straight yields 500 bucks. Then we have a good bankroll to ride some of the loses. What do you thinK. ???Lovies

          rcbbuckeye's avatar - Lottery-043.jpg
          Texas
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          Posted: May 2, 2016, 10:45 pm - IP Logged

          At least in TX. I think the TLC waits until all the numbers are in and then they run their super computers to determine what combinations the public is playing and then they formulate one that is not been played by anyone and thus they keep all the money that people bet.  That's why even when the Powerball/Megabillions is very high its always an out of state winner. That's just my opinion. Same thing of the other games..Can you believe I've never won on the Daily 4 since its inception?. Why?.Conehead

          On the TLC website you can go to sales reports and it will show how many straights, boxes, and pairs were won for each draw on Daily 4.

          There are winners. I've never hit straight on Daily 4 either, but I have hit boxed plays.

          CAN'T WIN IF YOU'RE NOT IN

          A DOLLAR AND A DREAM (OR $2)

            rcbbuckeye's avatar - Lottery-043.jpg
            Texas
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            Posted: May 2, 2016, 10:49 pm - IP Logged

            At least in TX. I think the TLC waits until all the numbers are in and then they run their super computers to determine what combinations the public is playing and then they formulate one that is not been played by anyone and thus they keep all the money that people bet.  That's why even when the Powerball/Megabillions is very high its always an out of state winner. That's just my opinion. Same thing of the other games..Can you believe I've never won on the Daily 4 since its inception?. Why?.Conehead

            Forgot to mention that Texas is ball drawn not RNG. If it was RNG, you would have a solid argument.

            PB and MM aren't even drawn in Texas. TLC can't control the draws in those games and they too are ball drawn, except for powerplay, and megaplier.

            CAN'T WIN IF YOU'RE NOT IN

            A DOLLAR AND A DREAM (OR $2)

              alsports2000's avatar - 23606770150900
              Pharr, Texas
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              Posted: May 7, 2016, 6:52 pm - IP Logged

              "they seem to hit all around the hot numbers."

              ___________________________________

              Figure that in your strategy in selecting your numbers.

              I posted this same observation one or two weeks ago that at least in Texas the big games like mega millions and power ball are always won by out of state. Why is that?. Texas is a big state and when the power ball get up to 450 millions a lot of Texans play. We generate a lot of money but someone from out of state will reap the benefits. I don't know if its the RNG or what but something is not right at least here in Texas....Conehead

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                NY
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                Posted: May 7, 2016, 7:50 pm - IP Logged

                "something is not right at least here in Texas"

                It's the educational system. It turns out people who don't understand probability.

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                  Wyomissing, PA
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                  Posted: May 7, 2016, 10:44 pm - IP Logged

                  "something is not right at least here in Texas"

                  It's the educational system. It turns out people who don't understand probability.

                  In addition, regardless of the location(s) the jackpot is won,  each participating lottery receives revenue based on their share of sales.

                    rcbbuckeye's avatar - Lottery-043.jpg
                    Texas
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                    Posted: May 7, 2016, 11:36 pm - IP Logged

                    I posted this same observation one or two weeks ago that at least in Texas the big games like mega millions and power ball are always won by out of state. Why is that?. Texas is a big state and when the power ball get up to 450 millions a lot of Texans play. We generate a lot of money but someone from out of state will reap the benefits. I don't know if its the RNG or what but something is not right at least here in Texas....Conehead

                    PB numbers are not RNG. They balls drawn in a machine.

                    CAN'T WIN IF YOU'RE NOT IN

                    A DOLLAR AND A DREAM (OR $2)

                      haymaker's avatar - Lottery-012.jpg
                      Egg Harbor twp.south Jersey shore
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                      Posted: May 8, 2016, 9:29 am - IP Logged

                      Simple for me.

                      RNG = DNP !

                      Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds    -- Charles Mackay  LL.D.

                        Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                        Chief Bottle Washer
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                        Posted: May 8, 2016, 9:59 am - IP Logged

                        The problem is not with the RNG itself - that is (or should be) entirely random.  Depending on the setup, there are ways to tell either it or the system taking its bits and alter them as Iowa proved.  People are the broken link and always will be when it comes to any game of chance but MUCH more so with RNG because it is behind closed doors.  The ONLY way I would ever waste money on an RNG game is if it is a random hardware ONLY machine built by IGT (with chips and no alterable software on the chips) and if it ran continuously, providing the bits produced as a downloadable file, every day.  Then anyone could use some very simple entropy programs to check the bits.  Also, it would need to have an interface with ONE control for the operator...a button on top which they hit at the time of the drawing.  It shows (3,4,5,or how many ever) numbers on an LCD or LED digits.  It would be built like a tank and audited every day by a third party to make sure not only that the entropy is correct but also that the box itself had not been tampered with. It would have an external (output only) USB stick that gets replaced every day with the days bits on it that is then sneaker-netted to their website for download.  If they can do all of that then I will play an RNG game...otherwise ball games only.

                        Your characterization that people are the weak point is true, but your scenario for "making it work" for lottery drawings still has problems that prevent RNGs from being a good drawing method.

                        For one, the lotteries (or any organization trying to protect the integrity of its RNG) would never provide a running stream of the output, for fear that a vulnerability could possibly be discovered.  Secondly, it still doesn't provide protection against a hacker.  The lotteries today do use hardware-based RNGs, but there are always software-based components that take the random numbers and record them, display them, etc.  There are always points of weakness.

                        So in reality, the only way to avoid the problems of computerized drawings is not to use them.

                        That being said, there are some situations in which computers are the only viable alternative, such as "Quick Draw" style games, with drawings every few minutes, and raffles, in which thousands of winning numbers are drawn in a very short period of time.  These are common-sense things.  But there is no reason a once-daily drawing needs to be conducted with a computer.  That's the bad stuff.

                        Lastly, to address all the conspiracy theorists.  You all are welcome to suspect the lotteries of wrong-doing — it is your human right to have that suspicion.  However, I will just say that I strongly disagree with you, because the mountain of evidence does not support some massive conspiracy theory. 

                        To say that lottery personnel actually force drawings to produce numbers that nobody has played is to say that hundreds or thousands of lottery personnel throughout the US are willing to go to their job every day and willingly commit crimes that would lock them up in prison for years.

                        Who do you think the people working at lotteries are?  Maybe you need to visit your state lottery and meet some of them.  The lotteries employ people like you and me who go to work every day and just do whatever job they have been hired for.  Believe it or not, they don't hire technology people whose job it is to fix lottery drawings.  They do, however, hire people to ensure that the drawings are secure. 

                        Importantly, in the case of people hired to secure computerized drawings, they have a literally impossible job.  Because as I have written about extensively, there is not any possible way to witness what goes on inside a computer.  These people do whatever they can to try to limit exposure of their systems to hacking, but as Eddie Tipton showed us, an inside bad actor can find a way to defeat security measures.

                        Now that's an important point:  an inside bad actor.  What does an inside bad actor do?  They try to enrich themselves.  They don't, however, try to ensure that the lottery drawing produces NO winners.  They want ONE winner — themselves.

                        It's incredibly crazy to imagine a bad guy going to great lengths — and great personal risk — to defeat security procedures just to make sure no lottery players win.  Or crazier still, to imagine that person try to make a lottery ticket from a certain state win.  So that they could go to jail for a decade in order to make someone from California win the lottery? 

                        I always try to focus my criticisms on the true problems, and by having laser focus, it becomes possible to affect change.  When people start throwing out conspiracy theories that don't make sense on the face of them, it is very unhelpful to the cause.  We all agree that computerized drawings are bad; let's be smart about explaining our reasons why that is.

                         

                        Check the State Lottery Report Card
                        What grade did your lottery earn?

                         

                        Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                        Help eliminate computerized drawings!

                          Tialuvslotto's avatar - Jailin
                          Texas
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                          December 31, 2013
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                          Posted: May 9, 2016, 6:25 am - IP Logged

                          Your characterization that people are the weak point is true, but your scenario for "making it work" for lottery drawings still has problems that prevent RNGs from being a good drawing method.

                          For one, the lotteries (or any organization trying to protect the integrity of its RNG) would never provide a running stream of the output, for fear that a vulnerability could possibly be discovered.  Secondly, it still doesn't provide protection against a hacker.  The lotteries today do use hardware-based RNGs, but there are always software-based components that take the random numbers and record them, display them, etc.  There are always points of weakness.

                          So in reality, the only way to avoid the problems of computerized drawings is not to use them.

                          That being said, there are some situations in which computers are the only viable alternative, such as "Quick Draw" style games, with drawings every few minutes, and raffles, in which thousands of winning numbers are drawn in a very short period of time.  These are common-sense things.  But there is no reason a once-daily drawing needs to be conducted with a computer.  That's the bad stuff.

                          Lastly, to address all the conspiracy theorists.  You all are welcome to suspect the lotteries of wrong-doing — it is your human right to have that suspicion.  However, I will just say that I strongly disagree with you, because the mountain of evidence does not support some massive conspiracy theory. 

                          To say that lottery personnel actually force drawings to produce numbers that nobody has played is to say that hundreds or thousands of lottery personnel throughout the US are willing to go to their job every day and willingly commit crimes that would lock them up in prison for years.

                          Who do you think the people working at lotteries are?  Maybe you need to visit your state lottery and meet some of them.  The lotteries employ people like you and me who go to work every day and just do whatever job they have been hired for.  Believe it or not, they don't hire technology people whose job it is to fix lottery drawings.  They do, however, hire people to ensure that the drawings are secure. 

                          Importantly, in the case of people hired to secure computerized drawings, they have a literally impossible job.  Because as I have written about extensively, there is not any possible way to witness what goes on inside a computer.  These people do whatever they can to try to limit exposure of their systems to hacking, but as Eddie Tipton showed us, an inside bad actor can find a way to defeat security measures.

                          Now that's an important point:  an inside bad actor.  What does an inside bad actor do?  They try to enrich themselves.  They don't, however, try to ensure that the lottery drawing produces NO winners.  They want ONE winner — themselves.

                          It's incredibly crazy to imagine a bad guy going to great lengths — and great personal risk — to defeat security procedures just to make sure no lottery players win.  Or crazier still, to imagine that person try to make a lottery ticket from a certain state win.  So that they could go to jail for a decade in order to make someone from California win the lottery? 

                          I always try to focus my criticisms on the true problems, and by having laser focus, it becomes possible to affect change.  When people start throwing out conspiracy theories that don't make sense on the face of them, it is very unhelpful to the cause.  We all agree that computerized drawings are bad; let's be smart about explaining our reasons why that is.

                          Excellent post, Todd!

                          I especially like your last paragraph:

                          I always try to focus my criticisms on the true problems, and by having laser focus, it becomes possible to affect change.  When people start throwing out conspiracy theories that don't make sense on the face of them, it is very unhelpful to the cause.  We all agree that computerized drawings are bad; let's be smart about explaining our reasons why that is.

                          "There is no such thing as luck; only adequate or inadequate preparation to cope with a statistical universe."

                          ~Robert A. Heinlein