POLL - On The Whole Do The Lotteries Provide Truly Random Numbers?Prev Topic Next Topic

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From Quick Picks to Winning Numbers, Are We Getting Truly Random Numbers from the Various Lotteries?

Yes

[ 29 ]

[ 29.6% ]

[ 52 ]

[ 53.1% ]

Don't know/Don't care/Doesn't matter to me

[ 11 ]

[ 11.2% ]

Other

[ 6 ]

[ 6.1% ]

Total valid votes

[ 98 ]

Discarded votes

[ 1 ]

rdgrnr

100

The Hall Of The Mountain Kings Tennessee
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Aug 7, 2010, 10:39 pm

Seems to be a lot of controversy about this question.

Let's see what the majority says.

Please explain.
jimjwright

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Aug 7, 2010, 10:59 pm

To answer the poll you have to define "Truly random numbers".

Jimmy
rdgrnr

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Aug 7, 2010, 11:07 pm

Quote: Originally posted by jimjwright on Aug 7, 2010
To answer the poll you have to define "Truly random numbers".

Jimmy

Numbers drawn randomly as opposed to surreptitiously arbitrary in some manner or just subject to some unintentional error or flaw in process or design.
joker17

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Aug 7, 2010, 11:09 pm

After 22 years studying chaos, it's apparent to me that there is no "one" definition for chaos and randomness. It has it's ebbs and flows. It has unlikely outcomes. It has harmony from time to time. It has too many variables.

Not that it CAN'T be predicted, but it will win in the long run if the person observing doesn't pick up on the nuances along the way. It's ever morphing, like the tides. The same combination of gasses in a given environment will never be the same. No two finger prints will ever match.

There is hope. Despite the gloom and doom, one can, and has, enable themselves with tools that can overcome chaos. After 22 years, yesterday i found the best version of the tools needed in the p-3. It was worth every penny of the 50 bucks I spent on getting that info, and I'm excited. It's been a while since I've been so excited about a p-3 system.

No matter what the officials do to throw the flow of numbers into a wild and seemingly unpredictable frame of reasoning, one thing will always overcome it. That is knowledge. Steve Player proved that right a while back, and so did the latest contender. The system which I endowed myself with yesterday.

Even manipulated machines have limits. Know how to exploit them, and chaos is irrelevant.

There will always be bias in all areas of life. Just have to spot the biases.
MzDuffleBaglady

25

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United States
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October 16, 2009
54,607 Posts
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Aug 7, 2010, 11:26 pm

Quote: Originally posted by rdgrnr on Aug 7, 2010
Seems to be a lot of controversy about this question.

Let's see what the majority says.

Please explain.

Missouri Lottery gives inside view of computerized drawings. 10:54 am - The Missouri Lottery takes viewers on a tour of their computerized drawing facilities and procedures.

Hello: I don't believe it's random, check this out.

Feb. 14th, 2010 485

Feb. 19th, 2010 584

Feb.20th, 2010 548

All within 7 days, 14 draws.

Feb. 22, 2010 555

Is that random or programmed?

You can watch that video again.

lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Good Luck.

088, 389, 022, 789, 444, 555, 888.
rdgrnr

100

The Hall Of The Mountain Kings Tennessee
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Aug 7, 2010, 11:27 pm

Quote: Originally posted by joker17 on Aug 7, 2010
After 22 years studying chaos, it's apparent to me that there is no "one" definition for chaos and randomness. It has it's ebbs and flows. It has unlikely outcomes. It has harmony from time to time. It has too many variables.

Not that it CAN'T be predicted, but it will win in the long run if the person observing doesn't pick up on the nuances along the way. It's ever morphing, like the tides. The same combination of gasses in a given environment will never be the same. No two finger prints will ever match.

There is hope. Despite the gloom and doom, one can, and has, enable themselves with tools that can overcome chaos. After 22 years, yesterday i found the best version of the tools needed in the p-3. It was worth every penny of the 50 bucks I spent on getting that info, and I'm excited. It's been a while since I've been so excited about a p-3 system.

No matter what the officials do to throw the flow of numbers into a wild and seemingly unpredictable frame of reasoning, one thing will always overcome it. That is knowledge. Steve Player proved that right a while back, and so did the latest contender. The system which I endowed myself with yesterday.

Even manipulated machines have limits. Know how to exploit them, and chaos is irrelevant.

There will always be bias in all areas of life. Just have to spot the biases.

That sounds reasonable to me but don't let that make you feel good because I'm pretty dumb.
rdgrnr

100

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Aug 7, 2010, 11:34 pm

Quote: Originally posted by MzDuffleBaglady on Aug 7, 2010
Missouri Lottery gives inside view of computerized drawings. 10:54 am - The Missouri Lottery takes viewers on a tour of their computerized drawing facilities and procedures.

Hello: I don't believe it's random, check this out.

Feb. 14th, 2010 485

Feb. 19th, 2010 584

Feb.20th, 2010 548

All within 7 days, 14 draws.

Feb. 22, 2010 555

Is that random or programmed?

You can watch that video again.

lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Good Luck.

Some day they're gonna pipe in Hi-Speed Internet to us hillbillies way back in the woods so we can watch them videos too.
JAP69

South Carolina
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Aug 7, 2010, 11:38 pm

I would say they are random.

How many times has cash 5 and jackpot games duplicated all the same winning numbers? In pick 3 and 4 you will have the same numbers come back as you will have a higher probability of random reapeating.

Thats the way the ball bounces or where an r n g random cycle stops at that split second.

Numbers are where you find them.

Str8 hunter.
Jack-C

50

San Diego, CA
United States
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May 24, 2008
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Aug 7, 2010, 11:44 pm

In my many years of experience working in the cryptographic community, I have found a few things to be true.

"Random" simply means that by studying past results you can not with certainty predict the next event. I think the lottery meets that requirement.

In cryptography we understood that some things can be "sufficiently random". That means that random numbers used for "secret communications" only need to be random enough to make a code that fools the people that may see (read) it. I can use "random" numbers to make up a code that will fool the general public, but would not "make muster" against a country that had Super Computers to analyze it.

http://www.thedailybibleverse.org/
JAP69

South Carolina
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Aug 7, 2010, 11:58 pm

Another thing to be considered on randomness is that cash 5 and jackpot games the balls are circulated in the same chamber and drawn from that one chamber. Cash 3 and 4 the balls are circulated in individual chambers for positional drawing. So with cash 3 and 4 their is a 1 in 10 chance of the same ball number being drawn per positional chamber and they also rotate ball chambers and ball sets for cash 3 and 4 from drawing to drawing.

Numbers are where you find them.

Str8 hunter.
Longarm

DFW, Texas
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Aug 8, 2010, 2:04 am

Quantum mechanics suggests that nothing that can be influenced by humans can ever truly be random, and that the only random events are at the quantum level. Beyond that, I also question what exactly constitutes randomness.

I think a more direct question is whether you think lotteries cheat. Some people seem to be suspicious about that, but I tend to believe that the states have no reason to cheat. The games are built in favor of the lottery. That doesn't depend on chance, it's a structural component of the games.

I guess my answers would be that I don't know what true randomness is, and I doubt mankind's ability to make anything random. People aren't capable of doing anything with perfection, and true randomness would be a form of perfection. But I don't see much incentive to cheat because the state is guaranteed to be the winner in each game, given enough time.
rdgrnr

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Aug 8, 2010, 5:19 am

There's some great answers and opinions coming out. This is getting interesting.

Jap69 had me convinced they're random then Jack-C brought up "sufficiently random", then Longarm introduced Quantum Mechanics which says they can't be random if we manipulate them. All the theories make sense to me which makes me wonder if I'm just wishy washy about the whole dadgum shootin match.
rdgrnr

100

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Aug 8, 2010, 5:29 am

Quote: Originally posted by Longarm on Aug 8, 2010
Quantum mechanics suggests that nothing that can be influenced by humans can ever truly be random, and that the only random events are at the quantum level. Beyond that, I also question what exactly constitutes randomness.

I think a more direct question is whether you think lotteries cheat. Some people seem to be suspicious about that, but I tend to believe that the states have no reason to cheat. The games are built in favor of the lottery. That doesn't depend on chance, it's a structural component of the games.

I guess my answers would be that I don't know what true randomness is, and I doubt mankind's ability to make anything random. People aren't capable of doing anything with perfection, and true randomness would be a form of perfection. But I don't see much incentive to cheat because the state is guaranteed to be the winner in each game, given enough time.

I agree with your contention about the states not having much incentive to cheat because they're already guaranteed to be the winner over time and I don't want to make this thread about cheating.

But we also can't leave out the fact that Tennessee was caught with a switch on their computers which would rule out the possibility of doubles being drawn.
Longarm

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Aug 8, 2010, 5:36 am

Quote: Originally posted by rdgrnr on Aug 8, 2010
There's some great answers and opinions coming out. This is getting interesting.

Jap69 had me convinced they're random then Jack-C brought up "sufficiently random", then Longarm introduced Quantum Mechanics which says they can't be random if we manipulate them. All the theories make sense to me which makes me wonder if I'm just wishy washy about the whole dadgum shootin match.

Reading over what was written, "sufficient randomness" and perfection are ideas that, to me, get toward an answer to your question.

A perfect lottery would be random. We don't have perfect cars, or perfect computers, or perfect lotteries. I would view true randomness as a form of perfection, which is unattainable.

In spite of the lack of perfection, I still like ball machines. Even if we assume that they're not more random, they can't as easily be misprogrammed, and malfunctions are more likely to be visible.
rcbbuckeye

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Aug 8, 2010, 9:23 am

Quote: Originally posted by rdgrnr on Aug 7, 2010
Some day they're gonna pipe in Hi-Speed Internet to us hillbillies way back in the woods so we can watch them videos too.

Well, rdgrnr, they have to figure out how to pipe in sunshine first. LOL.

JUST LOOK AT THE ODDS OF ANY JACKPOT GAME, THAT WILL TELL YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW