Casino blames software glitch
Imagine feeling as though you are a multi-millionaire — surrounded by well-wishers — and then being told something must have gone haywire in the slot machine, and it was out of order.
Blue Chip Casino in Michigan City says a software glitch cause a colossal dollar amount to flash on the slot screen, just after a northwest Indiana woman sat down to play. She says it happened inside the Blue Chip on January 11, at a penny slot machine like this called "China Shores."
"They give you a player's card. I inserted it into the machine and within 5 minutes um I think I was in shock," said Jennifer Carmin, casino customer.
Jennifer Carmin, who owns a small ad agency in Hobart, Indiana, saw ten numbers and a dollar sign.
ABC7's Chuck Goudie asks: "Did you know what those numbers meant?"
"I think I was still in shock and I said 2,800; 28,000. It just didn't click and then somebody stood behind me and they — she — they kept saying you won, you won 28.9 million and then that's when I looked and that's a lot of commas," said Carmin.
And she says a casino employee saw it.
"She was next to me. All I heard and saw, she started screaming 'supervisor!' at the top of her lungs. So I saw the numbers, heard 'supervisor!' and within 30 seconds a gentlemen approached me from the casino. He said 'Don't touch the machine,'" said Carmin.
In the chaos, she took a couple of pictures.
"I was scared. I put my hands up. I didn't know what was going on. He said 'We don't know how this happened, what's going on and he's like what did you do?' My heart, it just felt like it was pounding out of my chest. I said 'I'm a very excitable person and you are causing me stress right now. You're kinda scaring me.' He said, 'Don't touch the machine! Clear the machines! We have to shut down the machines!'" said Carmin. "They said they have to speak to the Gaming Commission."
In the lower level state gaming office, she filed this complaint and says instead of $28 million, the casino offered steak dinners to her and her boyfriend.
"I mean what are two steak dinners? I don't even like steak. I tried to explain that to them, they thought that was funny. I said I don't think that's funny. I'm pretty shaken up by this situation," said Carmin.
A few days later this letter from Indiana gaming regulators promised "a thorough review" and the state has hired an independent gambling equipment testing firm to help figure out what happened.
Blue Chip executives would not speak on camera. They did send the I-Team a series of diagrams that blame computer error for the mistaken $28 million figure. They say it appeared on Jennifer Carmin's customer account screen; as a "current balance" of promotional credits; but that it that it was not an actual cash jackpot with bells and whistles.
"You don't want to make the player feel like they did something wrong," said Cory Aronovitz, Casino Law Group.
Chicago attorney Cory Aronovitz is a gaming law expert and teaches casino law at John Marshal Law School. He says disclaimers posted on slot machines allow casinos to void payouts if there is a malfunction.
"I think after the emotion subsides, most reasonable people would say 'Yeah, that doesn't make sense. I was wagering 50 cents and it said $28 million and there was nothing on the sign that said i had an opportunity to win that.' Clearly it was an error," said Aronovitz.
Carmin says she didn't see any disclaimer, only the $28.8 million.
"I'm thinking I'm gonna pay off my mom's house. I'll pay off my best friend's house. I'll set something aside for my son. You have all of these all of a sudden dreams," said Carmin.
Goudie asks: "Do you think you actually deserve the 28 million?"
"They're always taking my money and I don't say: 'Umm is that computer wrong or did you overcharge me?' So I mean, yes, to answer your question," said Carmin.
In a phone conversation Blue Chip Casino executives told us the slot machine manufacturer has already fixed whatever software bug caused the problem. But the Indiana Gaming Commission hasn't figured out what caused it or what should be done. The state gaming director says he can't remember a claim of this magnitude by a casino patron.
Thanks to picnic for the tip.
Pay the Lady.............
Wow, interesting story... depending on how the ruling goes. Any casino can say "software glitch" and not pay. She's due something but not the full 28 milion (maybe a few hundred thousand or possibly even a 1 million) Thats a nice software glitch.
she should have take the steak dinners and given them to someone who likes steak. they owe her the amount she bet on that pull (.50) in the way of a credit on her next trip there. she deserves that at least but no more.
You can't play a penny machine and expect to win 28 million dollars. I agree a couple of dinners and a free night at the hotel is all they need to pay out.
Who expects to win 28 million off a penny slot? Even so 2 steak dinner coupons was pretty lame. At least offer to comp hotel and maybe offer a few hundred dollars in casino credit.
Carmin says she didn't see any disclaimer, only the $28.8 million.
"I'm thinking I'm gonna pay off my mom's house. I'll pay off my best friend's house. I'll set something aside for my son. You have all of these all of a sudden dreams," said Carmin.
Talking about see your life flash before your eyes, how do you see in your mind all this being done without one red cent in your hands.
When Ohio had its Buckeye5 game they paid $100,000 for a 5of5 match and it was clearly posted on the play slips that total payouts were capped at $1M regardless of the number of winners. So when a player brought 20 tickets that matched 5of5 and thought he won $2M and sued, he lost the case because the discliamer was where he could have read it.
The casino should have posted the maximum a player could expect to win on a penny machine if a certain amount was unreasonable.
Before Ohio's Super Lotto Plus(6/49+1) went down the drain Ohio posted the most one of its ticket could win was $20M regardless of the jackpot size and people stopped playing it 'cause jackpots of $50M+ didn't attract them but at least they knew the maximum they could win before they brought a ticket.
If I buy a $1 MM ticket and match 5of5 plus the bonus ball, I don't want to hear someone saying I shouldn't had expected to win such a large jackpot with just a dollar after it's done.
She probably knows she'll lose and is just trying to squeeze a settlement out of them. $28 million on a penny slot....excluding the hold that doesn't contribute to the progressive, that would be nearly 3 billion pennies without a jackpot payout!
They should pay her the top Jackpot amount that the machine she was playing would pay for a 50 cent bet.
Coin Toss would know the answer to this situation. He was a Pit Boss at the Casino's in Vegas.
Come on CT- throw in your 2cents here,straighten the Forum out with your insights Ol Chap.
"If a crystal ball showed you the future of the rest of your life, and in that future you will never win a jackpot, would you still play?"
Such a crystal ball would probably only be right 99.9999% of the time which means I still have a 0.0001% chance of winning.
I would never spend my money on Casinos. I do not trust Casinos.
That's just it. When you win big money, and they don't want to pay, they call it computer glitch. When you lose big money due to a computer glitch, nobody bothers to inform you about it and refund your money. JUST PAY THE LADY.......at least $2.8M. She deserves at least that much. This is America.
Honor the bet.
She didn't even WIN the jackpot on the slot machine. It was the plastic player card that glitched. The machine didn't go off no bells or whistles. No ring a ding ding. No matching fruit symbols. It was just her plastic (think hotel key) card. When they removed her card and reinserted it there were only 00/00. No reason to even think that you had won anything on the slot machine.
for someone who hates lotteries and casinos and gambling in general, you expend a lot of effort to tell everyone that nearly every day.
I wonder if she'd also be stupid enough to think it would be okay to cash a tax refund check for $28 million.
Something similar happened more than once at Winstar in OK several years ago. Don't remember the details except there was a big report on the news. The casino said it was a glitch.
They like taking it but they don't like giving it back...lol
PAY THE LADY.
noise-gate,
Well I wan't pit. I was dealer then box/floor but thanks.
As for the OP, the IGB (Indiana Gaming Board) will go with this:
"I think after the emotion subsides, most reasonable people would say 'Yeah, that doesn't make sense. I was wagering 50 cents and it said $28 million and there was nothing on the sign that said i had an opportunity to win that.' Clearly it was an error," said Aronovitz.
Carmin says she didn't see any disclaimer, only the $28.8 million.
"I'm thinking I'm gonna pay off my mom's house. I'll pay off my best friend's house. I'll set something aside for my son. You have all of these all of a sudden dreams," said Carmin.
Goudie asks: "Do you think you actually deserve the 28 million?"
"They're always taking my money and I don't say: 'Umm is that computer wrong or did you overcharge me?' So I mean, yes, to answer your question," said Carmin.
_____________________________________
Surely a $28 million jackpot would be posted all over the place. "Conde play our alots! Win $28 Million!"
_____________________________________
When you work in casinos you have to get a license. In Vegas it's called a Sherrif's card, other states call them badges, but you have to go through state gaming control, which is usually state troopers, at least for getting the badges. In Illinois the Illinois Gaming Board guys knews they had a good gig and were really courteous when they took your photo and fingerprinted you, Missouri, too.
The Indiana guys, on the other hand, treatEd you like they'd just arrested you. "SIT DOWN! LOOK AT THE CAMERA FOR YOUR PHOTO. NOW I'VE GOT TO GET YOUR PRINTS, COME OVER HERE."
Well that settles it then. Thanks CT.
Thanks noise-gate. Saylorgirl pretty well described the scenario in her post.
Also let me add if there was such a jackpot that machine would have been under surveillance from the eye in the sky and people on the floor.
The Tropicana in Vegs had a slot that had a $2M jackpot. Every time it jammed and they had to call a slot mechanic there was the mechanic and two security people. One of the mechanics was an absolute nervous wreck when he worked on that one slot.
For the people in this thread saying the woman should get paid, what is it she should get paid for?
Well, I've never played slots, don't think I've even been inside a casino, I'm guessing expecting a large payout on slot machines seem ridiculous to people who have played it. Not seeing how it's any more ridiculous than expecting $656,000,000 from a $1 investment. Seems to me that if the payout wasn't ridiculous compared to what gets put in, very few would play. How many would keep playing if the ticket price was $100?
The more ridiculous payout is what would help lure customers in to one casino over another I would think. An outrageous amount doesn't seem weird to me at all. I'd simply figure they'd have it so the odds were astronomical.
CT, I don't think it's about herself deserving anything. It's about the casino showing good faith. It raises people's suspicions when a claim of a computer glitch is given as a reason to avoid making a payment in a gambling establishment. There is already a sense that these places aren't trustworthy. It creates negative media attention they'll have to overcome; plus now they're going to spend how much on lawyers to prove they don't deserve to pay anything.
Why not take that money and give it to her as a show of good faith. Not the $28 million, but the money they're going to shell out to quash this thing anyway. Money is going to be coming out of their pockets no matter what, why not give it to her instead of the lawyers?
What should she get paid for? I say give her 28,000 and a weekend in the top suite with comps for food and a show, its just to keep the players happy and not bad mouthing you casino. Since the shows food and rooms are paid for by the losers the only thing they'd be losing is the 28 grand, but that's a drop in the bucket to what they win. If I was the Casino owner I'd probably have those machines checked and doulbe checked to make sure that NEVER happened again and put that disclaimer on the back of their cards they stick in the machines
Pay HER!
That will happen to me when i hit a jackpot. Sorry stupid, it was a glitch and your still a loser. Here's a few Chimichangos for your pain and suffering.
"You're gonna have to use your own microwave if you want them hot."
Trying to be fair to both sides, it's a tough call.....28 million ?? on a penny,nickle,dime,quarter or dollar doesn't seem reasonable....If you were taking about maybe a $50-$100 slot machine ?? Possible......
I believe there have been similar stories like this in the past......Perhaps there should be a maximum posted jackpot on each machine(if there isn't one already)
I truly hope the casino is forced to cough up a sizable chunk of change...maybe $280 K ??? and no steak dinner crap either
I like how their argument is "who expects to win $28Million off of a $0.50 wager"
Ummm, alot of people do actually. We put down a single dollar on the Mega and expect half a billion in return.
Same thing happened to me when the machine showed 3300, but according to the pay table, I won $500. I was told "3300" is an error code and they paid me $500. I guess it's possible some of these smaller casinos have a bank of penny slot machines connect to several casinos, but the rolling jackpot usually scrolls somewhere on the machine. The thing that is clear are the symbols on the reels to win the jackpot and this s.
"They say it appeared on Jennifer Carmin's customer account screen; as a "current balance" of promotional credits; but that it that it was not an actual cash jackpot with bells and whistles."
Anyone who uses rewards cards notices different numbers on that screen which has nothing to do with the machine play functions. Most machines show the number of credits and how much is won during the spin. Had Carmin said she played the machine because she thought it had a $28 million jackpot and can show where she saw it on the machine, she might actually have a case.
"I'm thinking I'm gonna pay off my mom's house. I'll pay off my best friend's house. I'll set something aside for my son. You have all of these all of a sudden dreams," said Carmin.
I wonder how many lottery scams she answered. "Her email address won $5 million in the Nigerian Lottery".
Not $28 million mistakes, but mistakes are made everyday in casinos. Dealers over pay and under play players and the floor person usually straightens it out. There are players who complain they are not being paid correctly when they are. There is always arguments with the one roll prop bets in Craps. The gaming commissions have their rules and regs, the casinos have procedures, and a steak dinner is probably appropriate under the circumstances in this story.
I don,t think theirs casino in america that will pay 28,000,000 dollars,on a penny machine.Was this one of those Indian casinos.
"some of these smaller casinos have a bank of penny slot machines"
"I was told "3300" is an error code and they paid me $500."
I feel like I've heard this story a few times.
My question is always what the highest jackpot amount on the machine says? It's probably not $28 million, so she isn't deserved that. If they can't prove she tampered with anything, then they should pay out the largest payout listed on the machine.
Blue Chip Casino pay out!! will Your casino lose money
The problem with them paying out is she NEVER put in any money or played the machine!! That is why she didn't win!! All she did was insert her player card and it read an erronous number on the display. When the card was removed and put back in it was zeros. But she doesn't deserve any payout since she never even played the machine.
Goudie asks: "Do you think you actually deserve the 28 million?"
"They're always taking my money and I don't say: 'Umm is that computer wrong or did you overcharge me?' So I mean, yes, to answer your question," said Carmin.
This is classic entitlement attitude. Let us see here: the casinos are in the business to take people's money. No one forces anyone to walk into a casino and spend a single red cent. The wager per game is clearly stated, and you have the option to play or not to play. Give me a break lady! People like her need to be sent to an outback bush village where you have to walk miles just to go fetch buckets of water for drinking, cooking and bathing. That does of reality would cure that entitlement attitude.
If the top prize for a given game is nowhere in the neighborhood of the glitch readout, how on Earth does anyone think the casino should pay her out something when she never was entitled to anything? It would be one thing if the top potential prize was, say $50 million. But if the top prize for a penny slot game is only, say $2,500.00, then only an entitled idiot would think he or she is entitled to win an erroneous $28 million prize. The rules are strict. If the prize is advertised at a certain level and a person wins, then that person has a valid claim to that prize (e.g. the casino advertises one can win a Bentley plus $2 million in cash). But if the advertised top potential prize for a game is only $5,000.00 and a glitch occurs that flashes a higher amount, that person is not entitled to that prize.
The lady should have taken the steak dinner and paid it forward to someone who does love steak. I do not play slots, but I thought one only won if the machine goes bonkers making noises after getting matching pairs or triplets (I don't frequent casinos much and only check out the table games, so I can only talk about what I see on TV shows like CSI: Las Vegas when it comes to slot machines).
The bettor is a loser.
She deserved a coke and a smile and maybe a Happy Meal. This is a no brainer case. She is owed NOTHING!!
If that slot machine didn't advertise a $28 million dollar jackpot, then she is not owed one point blank. No slot machine would pay that kind of money. She's trying to milk this fake claim to try and get a few dollars out of it or she is that delussional in really thinking she's owed that.
"She didn't even WIN the jackpot on the slot machine."
"No reason to even think that you had won anything on the slot machine."
Who would have thought putting a hot cup of McDonald's coffee between their legs would result in a multi-million jackpot?
"For the people in this thread saying the woman should get paid, what is it she should get paid for?"
Those saying it are just as inexperienced with playing slot machines and using player cards as Carmin.
"And she says a casino employee saw it. "She was next to me. All I heard and saw, she started screaming 'supervisor!' at the top of her lungs. So I saw the numbers, heard 'supervisor!'"
The story makes it look like Carmin matched the winning symbols on the slot machine, but she misread what was scrolling across the rewards card screen. I doubt you were trained to scream "supervisor" even when a jackpot was won.
Stack47,
Over payments are known as 'leakage' and it's just an accepted part of doing business, but when the leakage gets enough to be noticed everybody gets heat.
Players who complain they got shorted when they didn't are known as 'claim jumpers'. Another part of that is claim jumpers look for toursits who appear to not know the game and claim those players' winning bets. Once a person establishes themselves as a known claim jumper the casino will purposely not pay them and call security when they raise a ruckus (at least in the old days).
In a situation like the one in the OP the girl calling for the supervisor was doing her job, she saw a claim coming.
Casinos not only have the 'eye in the sky' but the 'eye in the rug'. These are plain clothes security and surveillance people. Good luck to people who put in a baloney claim and have these people as eyewitnesses they didn't know about. Often they try to steal purses of women playuing slots or their buckets full of won coins, then happen to 'stumble' right into somebody who knocke them on their keister.
One time in a casino in downtoen Vegas everyone playing the slots in one section was a cop, Nevada Gaming Board, or casino surveillance. They were waiting to bust this one guy when he showed up and descended on him like a plague of locusts.
There's is a Nevada law called 'defruading an innkeeper' and many a claim jumper or just ignorsnt tourist with a bad attitude and less knowledge of a game than they thought they had has been given a ride downtown under that law.
There's lot more I could tell you but since so many here are self-proclaimned casino 'experts' here there's no real point, is there? Seems like quite a few in this thread just want the casino to pay out $28M on a claim just to see someone 'get over' on the man.
CDanaT,
Here's one of the similar cases. Caesar's Palace, late 1980s. A family from Arkanasa is playing a Megabucks slot machine, taking turns. Big jackpot, $1.9M, constant surveillance. The son takes his turn and hits the jackpot. Thing is, he was 19 years old, too young to play in Nevada. He was alo 6'5" and had a full beard so nobody got on him because he looked old enough.
Caesars' wants to pay him but the Nevada Gaming Board says no.
Here's one for all you guys:
Midwestern Riverboat. A couple blew their money and came up with a brilliant idea to get some money out of the casino. The husband goes up to the observation deck, puts a banana peel in front of the door. His wife comes out, 'slips' on the banan peel, and they call for help.
After security chekcs her out the couple say they are going to sue the boat. They are brought down to the office and the shift manager and security tell them they want to shoe them something. The whole things was on a surveillance video. Now all the casino people in the office are laughing like the guys in a scene in Porky's and they ask the couple if they still wantt to sue the boat. And then they tell them if the agree not to they won't charge them with fraud and have them arrested.
//
I think that couple may be posting in this thread, I'm just not sure of their username.
Wow, this is interesting.
Thanks for all that info it was a very intersting read.
Interesting stuff, CT, thanks.
Have ya got enough of that kinda stuff for a book?
Me and you could make a fortune!
Thanks CT.....great info......keep em comin'
GREAT stories & insite on this issue!! THANKS!
Thanks for the compliments folks.
People seem to like these stories so here's two more.
Every year the Nevada Gaming Control Board (http://gaming.nv.gov/) publishes a report on ways of cheating that peoplel got caught at.
At one casino security was checking the parking lot and saw a camper with the door open and a tv on. But the tv was showing one of the blackjack tables in the casino. Security stopped and the two guys on the camper said, "Come on in." Incredible. Their partner inside the casino had a canera in his belt buckle and was sending pictures of what the dealer across the pit was dealing and the dealer's cards. Security couldn't believe these guys were sharp enough to set up such an operation but yet invited them inside.
Casinos are always leery of blackjack players in wheelchairs because often they do the same kind of thing, signaling to a partner on a tablr on the opposite side of the pit. Many of them fake nedding a wheelchair.
Another one was these guys got their own roulette ball into a game. It contained electronics that would take a signal when to drop. It couldn't always hit specific numbers but it could hit panels, sections of the wheel. So one night they've got a streak going, their winning a lot, AND THEN THE BALL EXPLODED!
Then of course there's the clowns that try to put their own card into a game and don't notice their cards have a different color on the back than the ones the casino is using.
One time at Foxwoods casino there was a slot machine that had it's bin full of coins and no one was around. I looked at it for a minute and always wondered if it was a set up.
lol...this reminds me of last year when a group hacked into casino's surveillance feed for a high-stakes table and used it to see opponents' poker cards. They ended up getting about $32 million.
Re: the OP, here's slot machine malfunction FAQs from the Nevada Gamin Control Board. Granted it's not Indiana, but the same info. applies:
FAQs - Slot Machine Malfunctions
The first thing you do is contact a casino employee. If there is a question of whether or not you have won a jackpot and you dispute the casino's response you may telephone the Gaming Control Board's Enforcement Division. An agent will arbitrate the dispute. If your dispute with the casino is for $500 or more, and cannot be settled, the casino is required to notify the Gaming Control Board.
http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=70#6
If you want to poke around that site there's some pretty interesting stuff, especially under Divisions, Enforcement Division
http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=1
Q: What happens when a slot machine malfunctions?
"Have ya got enough of that kinda stuff for a book?"
That "kinda stuff" came out of someone else's book and lots of it was reinacted on TV shows.
"Me and you could make a fortune"
Why not just save time put your name over the author's?
"Over payments are known as 'leakage' and it's just an accepted part of doing business, but when the leakage gets enough to be noticed everybody gets heat."
$28 million added to a player's reward card is probably considered more than just "leakage" especially if there is a chance the player has a legitimate case. In most states the gaming rules and regulations favor the casinos about the same way lottery rules and regs favor state lotteries. Whatever the ruling won't prevent a law suit.
Stack,
Sorry to burst your bubble but it didn't comes out of books. I wokred in Vegas for 15 years and on riverboat casinos for 6. It was all first hand experience except for the Gaming Board repoert on attempted cheaters. And you? Tell us what casinos you worked in.
As for the $28M being put on the woman's players card, there was no $28M, thus no such entry.
You have no idea how many beefs casino people have with people who think they know a whole lot more than they actually do.
As for this from you:
$28 million added to a player's reward card is probably considered more than just "leakage" especially if there is a chance the player has a legitimate case. In most states the gaming rules and regulations favor the casinos about the same way lottery rules and regs favor state lotteries. Whatever the ruling won't prevent a law suit.
If you honestly still think she has a case you're no sharper than the couple with the banana peel. I have a hunch that one day you blew $5 or so in a casino and these kind of ridiculous postings of yours regarding casinos is you're attempt to get back at them for 'taking' your $5.
Enjoy the alternative reality uopi live in where if you didn't experience something other people talk about they must have gotten it from books or tv.
May your luck be inversely proportional to your misguided opinions.
"Stack,..."
I have a hunch that one day you blew $5 or so in a casino and these kind of ridiculous postings of yours regarding casinos is you're attempt to get back at them for 'taking' your $5."
I have a hunch you're right, CT, but Stank said he knows casinos that "have banks of penny slot machines" so that $5 probably lasts him all day, LOL.
rdgrnr,
Back in the days of 25 cents craps (the chips were white) and freebie cigarettes (always off brands, usually lights) players that 'rented' a spot on the game for gours and hours for an occassioonal bet and free drinkks were known as "A stack of whites, a pack of lights, and call the waitress." The shorter version of that was "A stack, a pack, and coqtails".
lol, love the lingo.
I'm not doubting you worked at some capacity in casinos and/or riverboats and saw lots of interesting stuff, but I'm saying others saw and heard similar stuff and published gaming books years ago. Barney Vinson wrote several gaming books including "Las Vegas Behind the Tables" part 1 and part 2. http://vinson.casinocitytimes.com/books/
"If your headed, for Vegas for the first time take this book along. It's great fun to walk into a casino with your companions and start giving them the "insiders information"."
"Tell us what casinos you worked in."
With all due respect, someone believes anyone can read Vinson's books and offer about the same gaming anecdotes and Vegas trivia as someone who worked in the industry for 21 years. Which casino has slot dealers, slot floor men, and slot pit bosses?
"You have no idea how many beefs casino people have with people who think they know a whole lot more than they actually do."
You make it sound like someone actually heard every beef and we know that can't be true. Besides you're talking about people carrying buckets of coins and coin slot machines haven't been used in years. The beef here is the woman saw the number "28" followed by several zeros scrolling across the player rewards card screen.
"If you honestly still think she has a case"
How does "especially if there is a chance the player has a legitimate case" translate into me saying I honestly think she has a case?
"I have a hunch that one day you blew $5 or so in a casino and these kind of ridiculous postings of yours regarding casinos is you're attempt to get back at them for 'taking' your $5."
I never though I was blowing a $5 chip when I made a bet for the boys (and sometime girls) and I certainly didn't blow any money when I invested in casino stock. What you call "ridiculous posting" is because you can't distinguish between "if there is a chance" and "honestly believing there is a chance". Bet you thought Sheila Liebeck had "no chance" either and hers was frivolous litigation. Because of that case, anything is possible though I believe the steak dinner is her best offer Carmin will get.
"In a situation like the one in the OP the girl calling for the supervisor was doing her job, she saw a claim coming."
Because of your weekly experience working in casinos, I asked if it was common for casino employees to be seated next to slot players. Casino procedures vary, but it's usually a slot tech and not superiors who check malfunctions, payoff winners, and service the machines. As a craps dealer were you taught to scream "supervisor" when a slot machine malfunctioned or when a jackpot was won?
"Enjoy the alternative reality uopi live in where if you didn't experience something other people talk about they must have gotten it from books or tv."
I gave you the benefit of doubt because I thought it was common knowledge hundreds of books were written with several TV shows, and some movies. Amazon has over 1600 casino gambling books. I never said you didn't experience anything, just pointed out your experiences might not be unique as you think and there are thousands of similar stories.
"It was all first hand experience except for the Gaming Board repoert on attempted cheaters."
I agree most of your stories are interesting and probably more interesting to the people who never heard them before. I said "That "kinda stuff" came out of someone else's book and lots of it was reenacted on TV shows." because I know from experience lots of similar stuff was in books and reenacted on TV shows. I found 75 casino gambling and horse racing books at a garage sale bought them all for $10. Three of the books on Craps told different versions of false teeth landing on the pass line story.
If you think you're stuff is interesting enough to make money writing a book, go for it. Just consider researching whether it was done before.
You can't get along with anybody, Stank.
Nothing's ever good enough for you.
You're smarter than everybody.
Nobody can say anything without you telling them how wrong they are or how redundant they are or what a liar they are or how their threads shouldn't be allowed.
You never have anything interesting to say, so you have to run down Coin Toss's posts which everybody enjoyed just to make yourself feel better. "Look at me! I'm Stank, everybody! Look at me!"
What a total jerkoff you are.
Heh,heh,heh,heh,heh...
Yeah CT, I know another word for 'em - cheapskates.
Stack47,
A friend of mine when I was in Vegas was also a very good friend of Barney Vinson. Barney's real passions was writing Westerns but he got a bunch of rejection slips so his friend told him, "Write what you know, write what you know."
Vinson was a floorman at Caesar's Palace when he wrote his books.
Wehn the riverboats opened in the Midwest, Stack, a lot of players thought it was really prestigious to tell us how things run in Vegas - they didn't realize most of the superivsors had come from Vegas. And they'd tell us stories like, "I went to the Golden Nugget and beat steve Wynn out of $250" - as if Steve Wynn was really on the game watching them over $250.
You remind me of those jackoffs. You don't even understand what players who think they know more than they really know means. "Dealer, the shooter had money on the Don't and is still rolling the dice but he picked his bet up, I thought you couldn't do that."
Now good read a book on something else Stack, and tell us your next area of expertise. Maybe a baseball book would enable you to tell Derek Jeter how to play shortstop or David Ortiz how to DH.
Alpha Mike Foxtrot.
"Wehn the riverboats opened in the Midwest, Stack, a lot of players thought it was really prestigious to tell us how things run in Vegas"
The same thing happened when they opened the casinos in Atlantic City. And it was no different a couple of years ago when Ohio got casinos and every place in between when a new casino opened. The majority of the dealers were just hired, schooled, had no experience, and made lots of mistakes. I heard players say "that's not how it's done in Vegas" and I heard experienced players tell that player it was done exactly the way it's done in Vegas.
"they didn't realize most of the superivsors had come from Vegas. And they'd tell us stories like"
The procedures for dealing Let it Ride varies from casino to casino so it wouldn't matter where the supervisor came from if the game was played different than that player had experienced in Vegas. Some of the gaming book authors were supervisors and probably told the same stories to their dealers.
"as if Steve Wynn was really on the game watching them over $250."
It's called table talk by the customers who contributed to your paycheck. I agree, hearing it is just as annoying to me as it is to the dealer, but I can go to another table and the dealers can't. Listening to all the BS was your conditions of employment.
"You don't even understand what players who think they know more than they really know means. "Dealer, the shooter had money on the Don't and is still rolling the dice but he picked his bet up, I thought you couldn't do that."
Sounds like you had serious issues with the players and finally realized you were in the wrong profession. On the scale of things, what possible difference did that player's ignorance make?
I must have really hit a nerve when I mentioned there are hundreds of books with SIMILAR casino gambling stories, but it doesn't mean you can't write a book with your personal stories and become a best seller.
"Now good read a book on something else Stack, and tell us your next area of expertise."
From a review of Barney Vinson's "Las Vegas, Behind the Tables:
"If your headed, for Vegas for the first time take this book along. It's great fun to walk into a casino with your companions and start giving them the "insiders information"."
You're the one giving your expertise by saying you were a dealer in Vegas for 16 years. You made a point about a probable BS story about Steve Wynn, but expect the readers to believe your story about being a friend of friend of Barney Vinson. You even added details it was your friend who convinced Barney to write casinos related books.
I've read lots of books about casino and other forms of gambling, but I'm not the one claiming they have more "insider information" than anyone who read Vinson's book because they (you) were a dealer. Several of the books have glossaries with the same jargon you have used.
I'm not doubting you have experience behind Las Vegas and riverboat gaming tables, but just pointing out there are hundreds of books with similar experiences and stories already written.
Here's what got Coin Toss fired up and as usual you started it and will continue to stir the pot:
"Have ya got enough of that kinda stuff for a book?"
That "kinda stuff" came out of someone else's book and lots of it was reenacted on TV shows.
"Me and you could make a fortune"
Why not just save time put your name over the author's?
With your knowledge of lottery games and gambling in general, I wouldn't expect you to know "that kinda stuff" is in hundreds of gambling books and used on several TV shows. And I wouldn't expect you to know the lingo Coin uses comes straight out of several of those books.
"Nobody can say anything without you telling them how wrong they are or how redundant they are or what a liar they are"
Show me where I called Coin Toss a liar, Fatty.
I'm not doubting you worked at some capacity in casinos and/or riverboats and saw lots of interesting stuff, but I'm saying others saw and heard similar stuff and published gaming books years ago.
It's a fact that even Coin acknowledged when he said a friend of his encouraged Barney Vinson to write a book. Quoting a review that basically says anyone can pretend to be a Vegas insider is not calling Coin a liar or discrediting him at all especially when Coin heard about the book before it was published.
"or how their threads shouldn't be allowed."
If you show where I said those redundant threads shouldn't be allowed, I show you the forum rules and you can debate them with managment.
"You never have anything interesting to say, so you have to run down Coin Toss's posts"
Another lying spin on the truth. Coin never said which stories were his and which stories he heard so it's impossible for me to "run down" his posts.
"Coin Toss's posts which everybody enjoyed"
The authors of the hundreds of gambling books thought everyone would enjoy their stories too. Is that why you told Coin:
"Me and you could make a fortune"
Putting the "me" before the "you" proves who is really planning on making a fortune.
Stack47,
You are very reminiscent of a karate student with threee months in who took a few classes, read a book, and got his arse kicked out on the streets.
You say,
"Sounds like you had serious issues with the players and finally realized you were in the wrong profession. On the scale of things, what possible difference did that player's ignorance make?"
How interesting that you would use the Hillary Benghazi defense. "What possbile difference". Well i guess in all those books you've read about Vegas none off them ever told you that such players slow the game down which irritates the heck out of the bosses and brings heat on the game. Not to mention it runs off good players. Nobody wants to have 1 large on the Pass Line and odds and have the game interrupted by some moron who read something in a book and want to know why he didn't get paid four rolls ago. Did any of your books tell you the biggest action is on the graveyard shift becsause the real gamblers don't want to put up with such imbeciles?
When they open casinos outside of Nevada Stack they man them with experienced people, set up a dealer's school because they are there to provide some of the locals with jobs (and make millions). Here's something else your books peobably never told you. Native American casinos hire a certain amount of pale faces to get up and running. Once they get some experience under their belt they fire most of the pale faces I (reduction in force) to hire more Nativ e Americans but they keep a token amount of pale faces on the payroll because a lot of the native staff disappear on payday and for a few days after. That's just the way it is. When they're going to open a casino they place want ads for casino personnel and those ads end with "We are a Native American preference employer."
No offense to any Native Americans here, but like I said, that's just the way it is. A tribe in Minnesota with a casino pays each tribal member about $4,000 a month 'gratis' out of the profits. The Hopis in Arizona didn't want any part of casinos because it goes against their beliefs.
I'll wrap up your attitude with one story, Stack. This feller from Kaintuck had dun read a whole lotta books about WW II. He met this eldcerly guy and they got to talking and the guy who had read all those books was telling the elderly gent how it was in the concentration camps. He went on and on and on and the other fellow got tired of it and said, "You don't know what you're talking sabout mister", and got up to walk away. It was then that the book larnd hillwilliam noticed the number tattooed on the elderly gent's forearm.
There's obvious no point in talking to you anymore Stack so have a nice life.
AMF
[/Discussion]
I said ---> "Me and you (Coin Toss) could make a fortune"
Then you said---> "Putting the "me" before the "you" proves who is really planning on making a fortune."
I'm glad you closed your diatribe of drivel with that little gem Stanky, because it saves me a lot of time responding to an obnoxious, obtuse lamebrain like you.
Like all lib jerkoffs such as yourself, you have absolutely zero sense of humor.
You're about as interesting and funny and fun to be around as one of your heroes, Harry Reid.
I bet you even look like him.
So snuggle up right here, Stank47.
I'll hold your hair to steady your head.
OK, are ya ready, son?
Pffffffffffffttttttttttttt!!!
How'd ya like that, numbnuts?
"I found 75 casino gambling and horse racing books at a garage sale bought them all for $10."
And now you go to casinos to play penny slots.
Man, those books are really paying off for you, huh Stanky?
You're a regular high-roller!
We're all so proud of you!
Let us know if you find anymore exciting treasures at your Kintucky garage sales!
Well rdgrnr, Stack will be caught in a quandry between having to have the last word and knowing that between him and me whoever talks next loses.
LOL, I don't think he'll be back, CT.
He's probably busy with his garage sales.
I bet he gets some really nice clothes there too.
"How interesting that you would use the Hillary Benghazi defense."
I asked why you didn't simply tell the players why they could remove a "Don't bet" and continue rolling the dice. Or like most rude dealers, you hope one of the other players explains it.
"Well i guess in all those books you've read about Vegas none off them ever told you that such players slow the game down which irritates the heck out of the bosses and brings heat on the game."
My point about gaming books was made clear in the "Las Vegas, Behind the Tables" review. Anybody can read that book and con people into believing they were a Las Vegas dealer. The majority of the people reading your comments never heard of a "Don't bet". Explain how asking a question prevents the shooter from rolling the dice and slows the game. If there is a "behind the tables" rule requiring the stick man to hold the dice while a question is being answered, why does that irritate the bosses and bring heat on your game?
As a player I heard my share of dumb questions answered in "how to play" pamphlets. Never saw a Don't side player remove their bet during a roll, but I saw one having a really hot pass line roll who ran out of money in the middle of their roll. And I agree with you on some of the advice coming from "how to" books used by players can irritate dealers because it irritates experienced players.
"Here's something else your books peobably never told you."
Without all the racism, that's exactly the type of stories gaming authors tell.
"Native American casinos hire a certain amount of pale faces to get up and running."
Did you get the term "pale faces" from a 1930's western? Fatty was right, you should right a book because it would be a best seller among all the racists.
"No offense to any Native Americans here"
I'm surprised nobody told you if you don't tell racist stories, you won't have to risk offending anyone.
"I'll wrap up your attitude with one story, Stack."
For someone who claims their friend convinced Barney Vinson to write a casino book, you're really ignorant of antidotes and stories in those type of books. The authors are players, writers, dealers, bosses and a porter, bartender, or waitress and they tell their experiences. For some reason you believe your experiences are unique and so unique you're ticked because I said I read similar stories and had similar experiences as a player.
"There's obvious no point in talking to you anymore Stackl"
Did someone finally explain it's a fact "That "kinda stuff" came out of someone else's book and lots of it was reenacted on TV shows." and that I wasn't making any specific comment about your stories. Hopefully someone will explain the difference between "unique", "similar", and "kinda stuff" to you.
I simply asked you if it's casino procedure for the employees scream supervisor when a novice player misreads the rewards card screen and you go off on a tangent. It's possible your "kinda stuff" could sell lots of books and it's just as possible you'll be told they already have hundreds of books full of that "kinda stuff".
Early in the thread my question about a possible law suit was answered when several posters said "give her the money", but you were more interested in an unrelated story someone told about a banana peel. Nothing wrong with passing on stories as long as you don't pretend they are yours. And there is nothing wrong with calling this story the makings of a frivolous law suit either unless you ignore what several poster already said.
"I'm glad you closed your diatribe of drivel with that little gem"
Spin it any way you like, but you know you're trying to con a naive old guy out of his SS check. Just like the BS you said Standard memberships. Kudos because you did convince one of your groupies you weren't talking about her.
As I said before, my creepy little stalker:
"Like all cheap jerkoffs such as yourself, you have absolutely zero sense of humor."
Now go wash that greasy mullet, hick-boy.
I agree with Ridge, all socialist, welfare loving, non money having standard members should be banned. (After all we are not running a soup kitchen!)
And I agree with Ridge that all members without an avatar should be crucified.
But not that fake crucificixion with ropes.
Its gotta be nails.
and again I agree with Ridge
if your hit ratio is zero after five years, castration is the only suitable reward.
Well Stack, thanks fro proving me right when I said you were in a quandry between you having to have the last word and whoever spoke next lost.
As for your highlight game, I'll play:
"I asked why you didn't simply tell the players why they could remove a "Don't bet" and continue rolling the dice. Or like most rude dealers, you hope one of the other players explains it."
I guess those books you read never explained that in Vegas the shooter can take his bet off the Don't. the reasoning is that if a guy has you by the cajones you want him to let go. Once a Don't player gets passed 7 or 11 on the come out they've got the best of it, i.e. has the house by the short hairs. Atlantic city won't allow it simply because it's not in their rule book. A.C. also doesn't allow hop bets.
Anybody can read that book and con people into believing they were a Las Vegas dealer...
I'm getting a little irritated that you keep accusing me of making all this up. Once again, what casino did you ever work in? Or get tossed out of.
Explain how asking a question prevents the shooter from rolling the dice and slows the game...
It's the dealers, box, and floor job to PROTECT THE GAME. That is the number one rule of casino work. They don't want to be distracted by some yo yo tourist who read a book and thinks he knows everything and causes beefs.
Without all the racism, that's exactly the type of stories gaming authors tell.
Those running Native American casinos would laught their arses off at that remark. Who do you think is calling who pale faces. What a moron.
Take your misguided inaccurate opinions and your what difference does it make remarks and other accusations and go bother people about something you might actually know about, tovarich.
Das Vadanya.
Are you beginning to realize that you can't win here? When you're dealing with people who think they are the smartest guys in the room, and they're holding the only weapons in the room, surgical instruments, they will always APPEAR to be the smartest guys in the room.
(After all we are not running a soup kitchen!)
jimmy, are you a smart guy
"Are you beginning to realize that you can't win here?"
Now that's funny because my question was why are there that many people obsessed with discussing spending imaginary lottery jackpot winnings. It's a no win situation trying to explain why only a tiny percentage of MM and PB players will win enough to buy a Big Mac.
The question here is does the Blue Chip Casino owe the woman $28 million because of a rewards card error. There was no $28 million slot machine jackpot, the symbols on the machine didn't match the machine's jackpot, and there was no $28 million rewards card give-away. It's not any difference than a banking error showing a $28 million balance, but it makes a nice discussion story. And this is the same type of story we're likely to see in most of the hundreds of casino gambling books.
In retrospect, I never should have asked if it was casino procedure that employees start screaming "supervisor" every time a slot machine malfunction because I know better. Someone missed the "screaming" part or how stupid that would be when all employees should know where the nearest phones and security personal are. Pardon me for thinking a long time dealer knows the slot employees have walkie-talkies.
Barney Vinson is a part time writer for the Casino City Times and wrote several behind the tables books. Mistake number 2 was quoting a review of his books saying anyone could dazzle first time visitors to Vegas with their knowledge of what goes on behind the tables after simply reading his book. We can't win by quoting the facts and/or stating the obvious because someone always will say they know better.
When people don't have the facts on their side, they ignore the "employees screaming supervisor" part and the fact "I was quoting from a book review" to create a straw man argument that I said something I never said. I'm really surprised that after saying his friend advised Vinson to write a book about the behind the table stories, Coin Toss believes his stories are unique and so unique he believes no similar story was ever told.
There is no doubt someone will distort the facts and take my comments out of contact because they believe their BS always trumps the facts and the truth.
"if your hit ratio is zero after five years"
Even after that Pick-3 numbers "good for all states" experiment I did for over a month, my hit ratio is still about 1 hit for every ten predictions. My goal is to have 1 hit for every $100 bet playing pick-4 and I'll take that hit ratio for pick-3 anytime.
I'm not interested in any more arguments by you or anyone else based on distorting what I said. A good example:
"I guess those books you read never explained that in Vegas the shooter can take his bet off the Don't."
I was talking about stories, antidotes, and the experiences of writers who worked behind the table and you want to start an argument making irrelevant comments about my knowledge of the rules of the game.
"the reasoning is that if a guy has you by the cajones you want him to let go."
Or the obvious, because probability favors any Don't bet after the point is established. And it's just as obvious they were probably told they must make a line bet to roll the dice and probably didn't know the rules. Did someone tell you "Everybody knows you can save 15% on Geico" and did you counter with "But did you know Don't betters can remove their bets after the point is estabished?"
"I'm getting a little irritated that you keep accusing me of making all this up."
Then we're even because I'm getting irritated because you can't or won't acknowledge I'm quotng from a book review. If you tell me which part of the review is confusing you, I'll try to explain it.
"If your headed, for Vegas for the first time take this book along. It's great fun to walk into a casino with your companions and start giving them the "insiders information"."
What percentage of active LP members do you think are Rated Players and what percentage knows all the casino crap rules?
"It's the dealers, box, and floor job to PROTECT THE GAME."
I was on a Craps table at the Showboat in AC (way back in the day) when they had a fire drill and the dealers beat the players out the door. The stick man said they were told to immediately exit the building and they did. That happened around 1997, but apparantly they still had fire drills in 2007.
"That is the number one rule of casino work."
Right, but just not the number one rule in AC casinos?
"They don't want to be distracted by some yo yo tourist who read a book and thinks he knows everything and causes beefs."
The truth is YOU didn't like the distractions and with your attitude is exactly why I believe you were a dealer and probably in a long defunct casino.
"Those running Native American casinos would laught their arses off at that remark. Who do you think is calling who pale faces."
As if it makes a huge difference who is making the racist remarks. Someone suggested you could write and him and you could "make a fortune" and I made the observation books with preceived racism might not sell.
"What a moron."
You're the one who said "Native American casinos hire a certain amount of pale faces to get up and running."
I was on a Craps table at the Showboat in AC (way back in the day) when they had a fire drill and the dealers beat the players out the door. The stick man said they were told to immediately exit the building and they did. That happened around 1997, but apparantly they still had fire drills in 2007.
That you think 1997 is 'way back in the day' is hysterical.
I guess you couldn't figure out that this was probably the policy after the MGM fire in Las Vegas or that somebody locked the lid on the bank or stuck around to do so. A lot of people got killed in that fire when a Keno board exploded. It became known as a real life Towering Inferno. People were still playing poker machines with one hand and pointing at the fireball coming towards them with the other one. I worked with a guy who had pictures of cadavers they found just like that after it happened. But I'm sure no real life explanation will touch anything you can find in some book about it.
Should you ever develop the creativity to start a thread and not spend your time on LP looking to criticize everyome elses I may read yours. Until then bye bye and enjoy the alternative reality you're trapped in. I'm sure in your mind it's a nice place evden though a lot of other people consider you an overopinionated obnoxious know-it-all creep who really doesn't know much.
C YA
smart enough to know I'm not the smartest...
Do you know what I was trying to tell Stack47 above?
Hint: It's not what he thought.
"It's the dealers, box, and floor job to PROTECT THE GAME. That is the number one rule of casino work."
But after I pointed out the dealers flew out of the casino during a fire drill and it's not the "numberl one" rule, you Google "Las Vegas casino fire" and pretend you knew about it.
"I worked with a guy"
Yep, you worked with everybody and to you that trumps the same story in a book.
"a lot of other people consider you an overopinionated obnoxious know-it-all creep who really doesn't know much."
With your attitude towards the "tourists" I'll bet you were told that by your casino supervisors when you were fired.
"Should you ever develop the creativity to start a thread"
This is the "News Forum" and we are not allowed to start threads. It must have really ticked you off because I mentioned most of your stories were already told in books. Seriously, you should have a couple original stories to offer, especially after over 20 years of working in grind joints.
http://www.vegastripping.com/features/feature.php?feature_id=22&page=1
BTW, one of those books from the collection I found at the estate sale has a large section on casino lingo.
"Hint: It's not what he thought."
I'm not the smartest guy in the room either, but smart enough to not to comment on what you were saying. However what I did comment on proved to be true in later posts.
Just wondering, does Don Catlin use casino lingo like "has you by the cajones you want him to let go" in his gaming articles?
If i sat down to play a penny slot machine.....(which i have not, because i have never been in a casino) don't you know, or shouldn't you know what the
top prize for that machine will pay out.....before you pull the trigger.? When i scratch off a ticket and it tells me the top prize is a million dollars, and i
scratch off and see i have won 28 million, yes i would be happy, but i would also think this is a typo.......a error.........but i would want to be rewarded,
because it was not my fault........i think she knows it was an error, and she knows they owe her something. good luck lady and get you a real good
attorney, so he can get you............he will be the one who won......
I have really enjoyed eating my girl scout cookies and reading ......this thread.......
In this case she never as you put it "pulled the trigger". She hadn't even put any money into the machine. All she did was insert her player card into the machine and the player card malfunctioned. How could she have won anything. These cards are similar to the ones we use at a grocery store and we get points or gas points on our purchases. They owe her nothing.
I'm annoyingly between you and CT in this thread, mainly because I'm not as confident as you in the security of other communication mediums available. And with the delete key available to certain people, it's difficult to say anything which doesn't support the bottom line of the enterprise. As for Don Catlin, I've not seen him use such language, but wouldn't be surprised if he did, off camera. :-)
Every job has its own 'lingo', more commonly called jargon.
Catlin may not use it in his articles, but perhaps off camera, as you said.
As for the lingo, the guys who ran the dealer's schools in Vegas definitley used it. In fact I cleaned it up a little by saying 'cajones'.
From my experience as a player, it's the players and not the dealers that use the lingo and I suppose they are doing it to empress the dealers and the other players. It's certainly a colorful way to explain why a Don't shooter can take down their bet after the point is established. Saying "bet you didn't know a Don't shooter can take down their bets and continue rolling the dice" doesn't mean much if they can't give a logical reason why a Don't shooter would take down their bet after the point is established.
Apparently I wasn't being PC enough or maybe even rude by saying I read similar gambling stories and antidotes in books. It should be common sense that writers like Vinson and Catlin tell similar stories and antidotes in their books and articles as an ex-dealer might tell on message boards, then again most people on message boards don't know the difference between a Don't bet and Field bet.
"How could she have won anything."
According to the article, she believed she won lots of money, but it's all based on a software glitch with the rewards card screen.
"In the lower level state gaming office, she filed this complaint"
Because somebody on the upper level said she had a good case for a lawsuit. I agree with you offering a steak dinner was is generous, but because they can't know what a jury will say, the casino may offer more.