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Florida's ridiculous ball and machine testing scam

Topic closed. 63 replies. Last post 5 months ago by amber123.

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amber123's avatar - OpIFNim

United States
Member #164727
March 12, 2015
2522 Posts
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Posted: June 13, 2016, 11:17 am - IP Logged

What a bunch of BS. There would be a better chance of me believing their excuses if they told me the Little red riding hood story. 

DEPARTMENT OF THE LOTTERY 
RULE NO.:     RULE TITLE: 
53ER14-40     Draw Procedures 
SUMMARY: This emergency rule sets forth the draw procedures for the following Florida Lottery online terminal games: FLORIDA LOTTO?; FANTASY 5?; LUCKY MONEY?; PLAY 4? and CASH 3?. This emergency rule replaces Emergency Rule 53ER10-49. 
THE PERSON TO BE CONTACTED REGARDING THE EMERGENCY RULE IS: Diane D. Schmidt, Legal Analyst, Department of the Lottery, 250 Marriott Drive, Tallahassee, Florida 32399-4011 

THE FULL TEXT OF THE EMERGENCY RULE IS: 

53ER14-40 Draw Procedures. 
(1) Lottery drawings shall be public and witnessed by an accountant employed by an independent certified public accounting firm ("Accountant") who shall certify to the integrity, security and fairness of each drawing. All drawings shall be recorded by a video recorder. 
(2) The ball sets and drawing machines used in Lottery drawings shall be determined by random selection and shall be inspected by an employee of the Florida Lottery's Security Division ("Draw Manager") and the Accountant before and after each drawing. The Draw Manager and the Accountant shall ensure that all balls within a set contain the same security code. A primary and secondary ball set and drawing machine shall be selected for each draw. 
(3) The primary ball sets shall be weighed. If the weight of the ball set is outside of the tolerance range provided by the manufacturer, the secondary ball set shall be weighed. If the secondary ball set is outside of the tolerance range, other ball sets shall be selected and weighed by the Draw Manager and Accountant until an acceptable set is determined. 
(4) Once a ball set has been determined, it shall be loaded by the Draw Manager into the primary drawing machine and a number of test draws shall be conducted, as follows: 
(a) For FLORIDA LOTTO?, six test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected four times during the six draws, four additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
(b) For FANTASY 5?, seven test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected five times during the seven draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
(c) For LUCKY MONEY?, six test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected four times during the six draws, four additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
(d) For PLAY 4?, five test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected three times during the five draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
(e) For CASH 3?, five test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected three times during the five draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
(5) If the alternative ball set does not pass the test drawing parameters, the backup drawing machine will be used. Tests will be conducted with ball sets whose weight falls within the tolerance range until an acceptable ball set and drawing machine have been determined. 
(6) If the game for which a drawing is being held cannot be closed on the gaming system, the drawing will be delayed until the game can be closed. 
(7) During the drawing, balls will be mixed and pushed into the display devices by the action of an air blower. A ball must be "trapped" in the display position at the top of the mixing chamber to be a winning number. 
(8) In the event of a power failure, drawing equipment malfunction or error in the drawing process, including but not limited to the Host/Hostess announcing a ball number that was not trapped as specified in subsection (7), the drawing will be stopped and will resume as soon thereafter as possible. The balls drawn before the occurrence, if any, will be declared valid. 
(9) If a Draw Host/Hostess incorrectly announces the number of a ball that has been trapped in the display position, the Draw Manager shall immediately correct the Draw Host/Hostess by announcing the correct number. 
(10) Upon certification by the Draw Manager and the Accountant, the numbers shown on the balls will be announced as the official winning numbers for the drawing. 
(11)  Following removal of the balls from the drawing machine, the ball set will be weighed. If the weight of the ball set differs from the pre-draw weight by more than 1 gram or is outside of the tolerance range provided by the manufacturer, the ball set will be secured and delivered to the Lottery's Division of Security for investigation. 
(12) If an incorrect Xtra number is displayed on the countdown slate prior to the FLORIDA LOTTO drawing and is discovered prior to display during the drawing, the drawing will be delayed until the correct Xtra number is displayed. If an incorrect Xtra number is revealed during the FLORIDA LOTTO draw, the Florida Lottery will pay prizes based on the higher of the Xtra number revealed and the actual Xtra number drawn. 
(13) In the event a problem occurs that is not contemplated under this rule, the Florida Lottery shall use such substitute procedures as are fair and effective to perform the drawing. Such substitute procedures shall be determined in consultation with the Accountant referred to in subsection (1). In using such substitute procedures the Florida Lottery shall strive to maintain the highest level of public confidence, security and integrity. 
(14) The effective date of this emergency rule is July 2, 2014. 
Rulemaking Authority 24.105(9)(d), 24.109(1) FS. Law Implemented 24.105(9)(d), 24.108(6) FS. History?New 7-2-14, Replaces 53ER10-49. 

THIS RULE TAKES EFFECT UPON BEING FILED WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE UNLESS A LATER TIME AND DATE IS SPECIFIED IN THE RULE.

    grwurston's avatar - Cute animals_Spider.jpg
    Winning makes me smile.
    bel air maryland
    United States
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    April 24, 2010
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    Posted: June 13, 2016, 8:16 pm - IP Logged

    Wow!!! So if the same digit hits 3 times out of 5, or 4 times out of 6, they think there is problem with the balls? Green laughGreen laugh

    They just described something that happens every week in every lottery there is, in the "official" draws. In the Pick 3 or Pick 4 if the digit 1 hits on Monday and Tuesday, skips Wednesday and Thursday, and hits on Friday, it just met their criteria for a problem with the ball set. Are you kidding me???

    (11)  Following removal of the balls from the drawing machine, the ball set will be weighed. If the weight of the ball set differs from the pre-draw weight by more than 1 gram or is outside of the tolerance range provided by the manufacturer, the ball set will be secured and delivered to the Lottery's Division of Security for investigation. 

    So, can someone please explain (preferably a lottery official... we know you're here) how with all this security in place, with all the witnesses, and the video taping that goes on, how the weight of the balls is going to change in the time frame between the pre-test draws, the official draw, and the post draw tests.

    If you cannot explain it, then you confirming that the pre-test and post test draws, are just a scam the lottery runs on the lottery players that is designed to take true randomness out of the games. For if you (the lottery officials) really wanted the games to be truly random, you would do away with all the pre and post drawing tests and just let the cards (balls) fall how they may. 

    (8) In the event of a power failure, drawing equipment malfunction or error in the drawing process, including but not limited to the Host/Hostess announcing a ball number that was not trapped as specified in subsection (7), the drawing will be stopped and will resume as soon thereafter as possible. The balls drawn before the occurrence, if any, will be declared valid.

    The fact that there is already a protocol in place in case of a malfunction of some sort, makes the pre-test and post draw tests completely unnecessary, especially when their sole purpose is to make sure the the drawing equipment operates properly. A drawing equipment malfunction would be completely unexpected and unpredictable, and no amount of pre-test or post test draws can absolutely guarantee that a malfunction would not happen in the official draw. So again, please explain why they are necessary.

    Since every state follows a similar procedure, any state lottery officials response will be welcomed. Thank you.

    "You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra, Hall of Fame baseball player.

    The numbers will tell you what numbers to play. Pay attention to the numbers.

    Don't just think outside the box, crush it.

      LiveInGreenBay's avatar - driver
      Green Bay
      United States
      Member #169391
      October 15, 2015
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      Posted: June 13, 2016, 10:34 pm - IP Logged

      I wonder how this works in States that have RNG computers?  I know they have pre-tests also, but what are they looking for in those pre-tests?  There aren't any mechanical balls or machines.

      Never give up.  Banana

        grwurston's avatar - Cute animals_Spider.jpg
        Winning makes me smile.
        bel air maryland
        United States
        Member #90251
        April 24, 2010
        4870 Posts
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        Posted: June 13, 2016, 10:49 pm - IP Logged

        I wonder how this works in States that have RNG computers?  I know they have pre-tests also, but what are they looking for in those pre-tests?  There aren't any mechanical balls or machines.

        Good  question. Maybe they're checking to make sure the number that comes up is the one they programmed to hit.  Wink

        "You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra, Hall of Fame baseball player.

        The numbers will tell you what numbers to play. Pay attention to the numbers.

        Don't just think outside the box, crush it.

          amber123's avatar - OpIFNim

          United States
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          March 12, 2015
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          Posted: June 13, 2016, 10:53 pm - IP Logged

          It's harder with RNG because of a certain code written by the programmer that deletes itself after the draw, so no trace can be detected. I read about this a while back. Not sure on the details.

            dr65's avatar - black panther.jpg
            Pennsylvania
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            Member #74096
            May 2, 2009
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            Posted: June 13, 2016, 11:14 pm - IP Logged

            That is ridiculous. Do one and done and call it official. If they want to test the equipment,

            maybe testing two days per month is sufficient. 

            Something smacks about ditching results as test runs. They're voiding perfectly fine

            drawings in the names of up and up, honest and integrity.

              Avatar
              New Member
              Deltona, Florida
              United States
              Member #174076
              April 2, 2016
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              Posted: June 19, 2016, 8:27 am - IP Logged

              What can you say. Florida is a money hungry state. Some one has to pay for the interstate 4 toll road.

                zephbe's avatar - animal butterfly.jpg
                South Carolina
                United States
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                Posted: June 19, 2016, 8:38 am - IP Logged

                I Agree! something doesn't sound right about all that "testing".  Like the lottery is making sure they don't have a lot of winners.  Keep testing until you get numbers no one has played.

                Every champion was once a contender who refused to give up.-Rocky Balboa

                “Don’t let someone who gave up on their dreams talk you out of going after yours.” – Zig Ziglar

                  CARBOB's avatar - FL LOTTERY_LOGO.png
                  ORLANDO, FLORIDA
                  United States
                  Member #4924
                  June 3, 2004
                  5896 Posts
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                  Posted: June 19, 2016, 9:25 am - IP Logged

                  What a bunch of BS. There would be a better chance of me believing their excuses if they told me the Little red riding hood story. 

                  DEPARTMENT OF THE LOTTERY 
                  RULE NO.:     RULE TITLE: 
                  53ER14-40     Draw Procedures 
                  SUMMARY: This emergency rule sets forth the draw procedures for the following Florida Lottery online terminal games: FLORIDA LOTTO?; FANTASY 5?; LUCKY MONEY?; PLAY 4? and CASH 3?. This emergency rule replaces Emergency Rule 53ER10-49. 
                  THE PERSON TO BE CONTACTED REGARDING THE EMERGENCY RULE IS: Diane D. Schmidt, Legal Analyst, Department of the Lottery, 250 Marriott Drive, Tallahassee, Florida 32399-4011 

                  THE FULL TEXT OF THE EMERGENCY RULE IS: 

                  53ER14-40 Draw Procedures. 
                  (1) Lottery drawings shall be public and witnessed by an accountant employed by an independent certified public accounting firm ("Accountant") who shall certify to the integrity, security and fairness of each drawing. All drawings shall be recorded by a video recorder. 
                  (2) The ball sets and drawing machines used in Lottery drawings shall be determined by random selection and shall be inspected by an employee of the Florida Lottery's Security Division ("Draw Manager") and the Accountant before and after each drawing. The Draw Manager and the Accountant shall ensure that all balls within a set contain the same security code. A primary and secondary ball set and drawing machine shall be selected for each draw. 
                  (3) The primary ball sets shall be weighed. If the weight of the ball set is outside of the tolerance range provided by the manufacturer, the secondary ball set shall be weighed. If the secondary ball set is outside of the tolerance range, other ball sets shall be selected and weighed by the Draw Manager and Accountant until an acceptable set is determined. 
                  (4) Once a ball set has been determined, it shall be loaded by the Draw Manager into the primary drawing machine and a number of test draws shall be conducted, as follows: 
                  (a) For FLORIDA LOTTO?, six test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected four times during the six draws, four additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
                  (b) For FANTASY 5?, seven test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected five times during the seven draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
                  (c) For LUCKY MONEY?, six test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected four times during the six draws, four additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
                  (d) For PLAY 4?, five test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected three times during the five draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
                  (e) For CASH 3?, five test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected three times during the five draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 
                  (5) If the alternative ball set does not pass the test drawing parameters, the backup drawing machine will be used. Tests will be conducted with ball sets whose weight falls within the tolerance range until an acceptable ball set and drawing machine have been determined. 
                  (6) If the game for which a drawing is being held cannot be closed on the gaming system, the drawing will be delayed until the game can be closed. 
                  (7) During the drawing, balls will be mixed and pushed into the display devices by the action of an air blower. A ball must be "trapped" in the display position at the top of the mixing chamber to be a winning number. 
                  (8) In the event of a power failure, drawing equipment malfunction or error in the drawing process, including but not limited to the Host/Hostess announcing a ball number that was not trapped as specified in subsection (7), the drawing will be stopped and will resume as soon thereafter as possible. The balls drawn before the occurrence, if any, will be declared valid. 
                  (9) If a Draw Host/Hostess incorrectly announces the number of a ball that has been trapped in the display position, the Draw Manager shall immediately correct the Draw Host/Hostess by announcing the correct number. 
                  (10) Upon certification by the Draw Manager and the Accountant, the numbers shown on the balls will be announced as the official winning numbers for the drawing. 
                  (11)  Following removal of the balls from the drawing machine, the ball set will be weighed. If the weight of the ball set differs from the pre-draw weight by more than 1 gram or is outside of the tolerance range provided by the manufacturer, the ball set will be secured and delivered to the Lottery's Division of Security for investigation. 
                  (12) If an incorrect Xtra number is displayed on the countdown slate prior to the FLORIDA LOTTO drawing and is discovered prior to display during the drawing, the drawing will be delayed until the correct Xtra number is displayed. If an incorrect Xtra number is revealed during the FLORIDA LOTTO draw, the Florida Lottery will pay prizes based on the higher of the Xtra number revealed and the actual Xtra number drawn. 
                  (13) In the event a problem occurs that is not contemplated under this rule, the Florida Lottery shall use such substitute procedures as are fair and effective to perform the drawing. Such substitute procedures shall be determined in consultation with the Accountant referred to in subsection (1). In using such substitute procedures the Florida Lottery shall strive to maintain the highest level of public confidence, security and integrity. 
                  (14) The effective date of this emergency rule is July 2, 2014. 
                  Rulemaking Authority 24.105(9)(d), 24.109(1) FS. Law Implemented 24.105(9)(d), 24.108(6) FS. History?New 7-2-14, Replaces 53ER10-49. 

                  THIS RULE TAKES EFFECT UPON BEING FILED WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE UNLESS A LATER TIME AND DATE IS SPECIFIED IN THE RULE.

                  I agree, 150% with your analysis. I email the Lottery Office, asking this question. "When did pre-draws testing begin"? I think it was when G_Tech became the contractor, not sure. Mid draws began shortly after G-tech took control, 5/19/08. I believe they took control, in late 07.

                  We will see if they answer the question.

                    Avatar
                    NY
                    United States
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                    October 16, 2005
                    3474 Posts
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                    Posted: June 19, 2016, 11:18 am - IP Logged

                    "They just described something that happens every week in every lottery there is, in the "official" draws. In the Pick 3 or Pick 4 "

                    I know this is a wildly crazy idea, but do you suppose that there's any chance that the number of balls used for pick 3 or 4 might, just maybe, be different than the number of balls used for lotto? And, even crazier, that if that's the case the probability of the same ball being drawn might be different for the two games?

                      ArizonaDream's avatar - Lottery-009.jpg

                      United States
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                      Posted: June 19, 2016, 11:34 am - IP Logged

                      Wow!!! So if the same digit hits 3 times out of 5, or 4 times out of 6, they think there is problem with the balls? Green laughGreen laugh

                      They just described something that happens every week in every lottery there is, in the "official" draws. In the Pick 3 or Pick 4 if the digit 1 hits on Monday and Tuesday, skips Wednesday and Thursday, and hits on Friday, it just met their criteria for a problem with the ball set. Are you kidding me???

                      (11)  Following removal of the balls from the drawing machine, the ball set will be weighed. If the weight of the ball set differs from the pre-draw weight by more than 1 gram or is outside of the tolerance range provided by the manufacturer, the ball set will be secured and delivered to the Lottery's Division of Security for investigation. 

                      So, can someone please explain (preferably a lottery official... we know you're here) how with all this security in place, with all the witnesses, and the video taping that goes on, how the weight of the balls is going to change in the time frame between the pre-test draws, the official draw, and the post draw tests.

                      If you cannot explain it, then you confirming that the pre-test and post test draws, are just a scam the lottery runs on the lottery players that is designed to take true randomness out of the games. For if you (the lottery officials) really wanted the games to be truly random, you would do away with all the pre and post drawing tests and just let the cards (balls) fall how they may. 

                      (8) In the event of a power failure, drawing equipment malfunction or error in the drawing process, including but not limited to the Host/Hostess announcing a ball number that was not trapped as specified in subsection (7), the drawing will be stopped and will resume as soon thereafter as possible. The balls drawn before the occurrence, if any, will be declared valid.

                      The fact that there is already a protocol in place in case of a malfunction of some sort, makes the pre-test and post draw tests completely unnecessary, especially when their sole purpose is to make sure the the drawing equipment operates properly. A drawing equipment malfunction would be completely unexpected and unpredictable, and no amount of pre-test or post test draws can absolutely guarantee that a malfunction would not happen in the official draw. So again, please explain why they are necessary.

                      Since every state follows a similar procedure, any state lottery officials response will be welcomed. Thank you.

                      Are we talking about one digit repeating in any position of 3 or 4?  I thought one ball set covered one position. I didn't see any examples of the same number coming up in the same position 4 of 6 and then 2 of 4 times in the few months I checked.

                        lakerben's avatar - spherewall
                        New Mexico
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                        Posted: June 19, 2016, 3:56 pm - IP Logged

                        Get the test numbers and average them ,then 111.

                        Peace, don't be intimidated by verbage ,act.

                        How about them cowboys!

                         

                         

                        US Flag

                          grwurston's avatar - Cute animals_Spider.jpg
                          Winning makes me smile.
                          bel air maryland
                          United States
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                          April 24, 2010
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                          Posted: June 19, 2016, 3:58 pm - IP Logged

                          Are we talking about one digit repeating in any position of 3 or 4?  I thought one ball set covered one position. I didn't see any examples of the same number coming up in the same position 4 of 6 and then 2 of 4 times in the few months I checked.

                          (d) For PLAY 4?, five test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected three times during the five draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used. 

                          (e) For CASH 3?, five test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected three times during the five draws, three additional test draws will be conducted. If the same digit is selected two additional times, an alternative ball set shall be used.

                          They didn't say anything about the digit being selected in the same position. But let's ASSUME for a minute that is what they meant. And as I said, it happens all the time in the official draws. So why do they have a problem with it in the pre-tests? 

                          June 13 thru 17 Pos 3.  #8 Three times in 5 draws. June 16 thru 19 Pos 2. #4 Three times in 4 draws.

                          Florida (FL) Cash 3 Midday Lottery Results

                           Draw Date  Results 
                          Sun, Jun 19, 20165-4-5Prize Payouts
                          Sat, Jun 18, 20169-3-1Prize Payouts
                          Fri, Jun 17, 20163-4-8Prize Payouts
                          Thu, Jun 16, 20166-4-6Prize Payouts
                          Wed, Jun 15, 20162-2-8Prize Payouts
                          Tue, Jun 14, 20161-5-5Prize Payouts
                          Mon, Jun 13, 20166-1-8Prize Payouts

                           

                          June 9 thru 13. Pos 1.  #5 Four times in 5 draws. 

                          Florida (FL) Play 4 Evening Lottery Results

                           Draw Date  Results 
                          Sat, Jun 18, 20165-7-0-6Prize Payouts
                          Fri, Jun 17, 20167-2-5-0Prize Payouts
                          Thu, Jun 16, 20161-3-7-5Prize Payouts
                          Wed, Jun 15, 20160-2-8-3Prize Payouts
                          Tue, Jun 14, 20168-3-2-9Prize Payouts
                          Mon, Jun 13, 20165-6-7-4Prize Payouts
                          Sun, Jun 12, 20165-4-9-3Prize Payouts
                          Sat, Jun 11, 20166-8-2-6Prize Payouts
                          Fri, Jun 10, 20165-7-4-5Prize Payouts
                          Thu, Jun 9, 20165-6-6-9Prize Payouts

                          "You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra, Hall of Fame baseball player.

                          The numbers will tell you what numbers to play. Pay attention to the numbers.

                          Don't just think outside the box, crush it.

                            ArizonaDream's avatar - Lottery-009.jpg

                            United States
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                            October 10, 2015
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                            Posted: June 19, 2016, 4:23 pm - IP Logged

                            You have examples where the first condition is met, but not the additional 2 of 3 that would disqualify the ball set.But what I'd like to know is if a pick 3 ball set is 10 balls or 30? I thought pick 3 used 3 machines, each machine with a set of 10 balls. If it's 30, I'll agree they set a ridiculous test condition, if 10, not so much.

                              grwurston's avatar - Cute animals_Spider.jpg
                              Winning makes me smile.
                              bel air maryland
                              United States
                              Member #90251
                              April 24, 2010
                              4870 Posts
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                              Posted: June 19, 2016, 4:25 pm - IP Logged

                              I'm still waiting for an answer from the lottery officials here for my earlier question... I hope I won't have to hold my breath too much longer.  Wink  Here it is again, in case they missed it.

                              So, can someone please explain (preferably a lottery official... we know you're here) how with all this security in place, with all the witnesses, and the video taping that goes on, how the weight of the balls is going to change in the time frame between the pre-test draws, the official draw, and the post draw tests.

                              If you cannot explain it, then you confirming that the pre-test and post test draws, are just a scam the lottery runs on the lottery players that is designed to take true randomness out of the games. For if you (the lottery officials) really wanted the games to be truly random, you would do away with all the pre and post drawing tests and just let the cards (balls) fall how they may.

                              "You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra, Hall of Fame baseball player.

                              The numbers will tell you what numbers to play. Pay attention to the numbers.

                              Don't just think outside the box, crush it.