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Tennessee Lottery computerized drawings under suspicion again

Topic closed. 56 replies. Last post 9 years ago by psykomo.

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JackpotWanna's avatar - squiz

United States
Member #4121
March 23, 2004
817 Posts
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Posted: April 10, 2008, 8:12 am - IP Logged

Looks like easy money.

    jarasan's avatar - new patrick.gif
    Harbinger
    D.C./MD.
    United States
    Member #44103
    July 30, 2006
    5583 Posts
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    Posted: April 10, 2008, 9:15 pm - IP Logged
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Big-Block_engine
    [ Generation 1: "W" Series 
    348 available from 1958 to 1961
    409 available from 1961 to 1965
    427 (Z11) available only in 1963

    2 Generation 2: Mark IV Series
    396 and 402 was introduced in the 1965 and 396 bored out by .030 to create
    402 they called it the Turbo-Jet 400 and stuck it in these models 
    1965 Chevrolet Corvette
    1965-1972 Chevrolet Chevelle
    1967-1972 Chevrolet Camaro
    1968-1970 Chevrolet Nova
    1970-1972 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
    1965-1972 Full-size models
     
    427 was introduced in 1966
    454 then came as a result of the mussel car era
    572 was a hopped up version of the 454 Chevrolet began offering an 572 cu in (9.4 L) "crate motor" in 2003 which produced 720 hp
     
    And of course all these big blocks engines can be massaged to make a lot of different configurations.

    Well, well,  04/10/08 day p3 402  MD. P3 night 351 went from from big block Chevy to Ford Cleveland.  Imagine that. I played 396 and 347 night.  I hope some 402 lovers hit as well as the Mustang Fairlane Club members.

      Down's avatar - Sphere animated2.gif
      Riverside, Ca
      United States
      Member #21722
      September 14, 2005
      173 Posts
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      Posted: April 11, 2008, 5:38 am - IP Logged

      i don't know why they would stop the computer draws because its all "random" just like how every other lottery game is "random"

        CARBOB's avatar - FL LOTTERY_LOGO.png
        ORLANDO, FLORIDA
        United States
        Member #4924
        June 3, 2004
        5897 Posts
        Online
        Posted: April 11, 2008, 6:29 am - IP Logged

        i don't know why they would stop the computer draws because its all "random" just like how every other lottery game is "random"

        You obviously have no idea what you are saying!!! How can computer draws be "random", when any programmer working in the Tn Lottery Hqs can manipulate the program. Don't believe all the bs about safeguards!!! My state's lottery is ball drawn, and they are using very questionable tactics, by using test draws. Are the draws being random when this method is used? I say NO. Test draws warp the stats.

          littlejsing's avatar - DiscoBallGlowing

          United States
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          September 30, 2007
          47 Posts
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          Posted: April 11, 2008, 7:49 am - IP Logged

          i don't know why they would stop the computer draws because its all "random" just like how every other lottery game is "random"

          I am against the computer drawings because of the risks of manipulating the system.  A person created the system; consequently, a person or persons can hack it.  The mechanical ball system is preferrable because of eliminating this manipulation risk.  Think about it, there is no 24/7 monitoring of the computerized system; therefore the opportunity is there.  At least with the mechanical drawing the player has the opportunity to "visually watch" the process.  As far as cost effectiveness, Tennessee has not saved money when you factor the independent audit costs for the "glitch" and the decrease in ticket sales since the switch. 

            Captain Lotto's avatar - CaptLotto
            Jefferson City, MO
            United States
            Member #55250
            September 20, 2007
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            Posted: April 11, 2008, 1:10 pm - IP Logged

            Someone needs a lesson in statistics.  You prefer ball drawings, but then claim it's the pre-tests which make them NOT random?  Aren't you glad they test in order to identify tampering? 

            IF the drawings are random, testing will not affect the stats.  It's the definition of random.  There is no way to predict the outcome.  There are no patterns to discern. 

            Captain Lotto

            "Every day is a good day!"

              Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
              Chief Bottle Washer
              New Jersey
              United States
              Member #1
              May 31, 2000
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              Posted: April 11, 2008, 1:33 pm - IP Logged

              Someone needs a lesson in statistics.  You prefer ball drawings, but then claim it's the pre-tests which make them NOT random?  Aren't you glad they test in order to identify tampering? 

              IF the drawings are random, testing will not affect the stats.  It's the definition of random.  There is no way to predict the outcome.  There are no patterns to discern. 

              I don't think you realize how condescending that sounds.  Not to mention that you are completely misstating the complaints of those who oppose computerized drawings.  (And those people make up the vast majority, as shown in the numerous polls we've done on the subject.)

              Computerized drawings have errors, and they have had errors in just about every state in which they've been used.  Why?  Because computers have to be programmed by people, and people make mistakes.

              A certain segment of people are also corrupt (or corruptable), and if a smart, corrupt person has access to a computerized drawing system, that person could potentially swing the odds in the direction they wish, and they could prevent anyone from finding out about it.

              I have documented this many times, so I won't do it again here. 

              I do know a thing or two about computers, so I know full-well this is possible.  I also know that it is harder to do it with traditional ball machines, because any layperson with a little training can recognize a machine that has been tampered with -- which cannot be said about computers.

              When the computer system in tennessee was not drawing doubles, it went on for three weeks without someone noticing an indicator flag was set incorrectly.  Can you imagine if a clever programmer was actually trying to hide something?  What if they triggered it to go off once a year?  Do you think it would be noticed?  I don't.

              People want real drawings.  It is ludicrous to fight that.  It's our money, not the lotteries'.

               

              Check the State Lottery Report Card
              What grade did your lottery earn?

               

              Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
              Help eliminate computerized drawings!

                Captain Lotto's avatar - CaptLotto
                Jefferson City, MO
                United States
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                September 20, 2007
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                Posted: April 11, 2008, 3:01 pm - IP Logged

                Touche. 

                I was replying directly to CARBOB's comment about how he prefers ball drawings but thinks pre-tests throw off the stats. 

                You can't have it both ways.  If you think ball drawings represent random, then you can't complain that there are patterns that testing prevents from happening. 

                Granted, it is possible that there could be corruption in any aspect of any business.  That's what pre-tests are designed to thwart.  However, using statistically insignifcant occurences as evidence that tampering is taking place is also ludricrous. 

                Integrity is the heart and soul of any Lottery - I am certain they will do whatever possible to maintain integrity.  The system in question at one time had a flaw.  They did what was necessary to correct it.  If they have to change draw systems to regain confidence, they may do that.  But I don't think one error is evidence that all computer systems are flawed are somehow more vulnerable to corruption. 

                In Missouri, they use a computer system that is stand-alone, not networked and in a completely secure building.  The drawings and thousands of tests have been certified by professionals and auditors to be random.  Drawings are open and can be witnessed by any citizen if desired.  I fail to see how a mistake in Tennessee has rendered their system also somehow untrustworthy.

                I have been watching the numbers closely and sometimes see strange pairings or repeats.  But for the life of me, I cannot detect a pattern or predict the next combination.  That's because it's random.  Until someone can demonstrate otherwise, I remain skeptic of conspiracy theories.  And trust I remain a skeptic of everything.   

                Captain Lotto

                "Every day is a good day!"

                  littlejsing's avatar - DiscoBallGlowing

                  United States
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                  September 30, 2007
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                  Posted: April 11, 2008, 5:55 pm - IP Logged

                  Touche. 

                  I was replying directly to CARBOB's comment about how he prefers ball drawings but thinks pre-tests throw off the stats. 

                  You can't have it both ways.  If you think ball drawings represent random, then you can't complain that there are patterns that testing prevents from happening. 

                  Granted, it is possible that there could be corruption in any aspect of any business.  That's what pre-tests are designed to thwart.  However, using statistically insignifcant occurences as evidence that tampering is taking place is also ludricrous. 

                  Integrity is the heart and soul of any Lottery - I am certain they will do whatever possible to maintain integrity.  The system in question at one time had a flaw.  They did what was necessary to correct it.  If they have to change draw systems to regain confidence, they may do that.  But I don't think one error is evidence that all computer systems are flawed are somehow more vulnerable to corruption. 

                  In Missouri, they use a computer system that is stand-alone, not networked and in a completely secure building.  The drawings and thousands of tests have been certified by professionals and auditors to be random.  Drawings are open and can be witnessed by any citizen if desired.  I fail to see how a mistake in Tennessee has rendered their system also somehow untrustworthy.

                  I have been watching the numbers closely and sometimes see strange pairings or repeats.  But for the life of me, I cannot detect a pattern or predict the next combination.  That's because it's random.  Until someone can demonstrate otherwise, I remain skeptic of conspiracy theories.  And trust I remain a skeptic of everything.   

                  It's quite obvious to me and I'm sure others that you are speaking on behalf of computerized drawings.  I would not be surprised to find that it butters your bread. 

                  Your statement "I fail to see how a mistake in Tennessee has rendered their system also somehow untrustworthy" is so flippant about players who placed bets with "no chance" of winning.  Perhaps instead of you failing to see it, you refuse to see it or try to fog reality so others don't see it for what it actually is. 

                  My comments and others in this forum were not going down the path of conspiracy theories that your spin.  We just want to have confidence when a bet is placed it has "a chance" of winning   Stop spinning!!

                    Todd's avatar - Cylon 2.gif
                    Chief Bottle Washer
                    New Jersey
                    United States
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                    Posted: April 11, 2008, 6:14 pm - IP Logged

                    Touche. 

                    I was replying directly to CARBOB's comment about how he prefers ball drawings but thinks pre-tests throw off the stats. 

                    You can't have it both ways.  If you think ball drawings represent random, then you can't complain that there are patterns that testing prevents from happening. 

                    Granted, it is possible that there could be corruption in any aspect of any business.  That's what pre-tests are designed to thwart.  However, using statistically insignifcant occurences as evidence that tampering is taking place is also ludricrous. 

                    Integrity is the heart and soul of any Lottery - I am certain they will do whatever possible to maintain integrity.  The system in question at one time had a flaw.  They did what was necessary to correct it.  If they have to change draw systems to regain confidence, they may do that.  But I don't think one error is evidence that all computer systems are flawed are somehow more vulnerable to corruption. 

                    In Missouri, they use a computer system that is stand-alone, not networked and in a completely secure building.  The drawings and thousands of tests have been certified by professionals and auditors to be random.  Drawings are open and can be witnessed by any citizen if desired.  I fail to see how a mistake in Tennessee has rendered their system also somehow untrustworthy.

                    I have been watching the numbers closely and sometimes see strange pairings or repeats.  But for the life of me, I cannot detect a pattern or predict the next combination.  That's because it's random.  Until someone can demonstrate otherwise, I remain skeptic of conspiracy theories.  And trust I remain a skeptic of everything.   

                    I know the claims of the computerized drawing supporters, and I've heard them repeated many times.  If the Pentagon can be hacked, so can a government lottery machine.  The fact that it is not connected to a LAN or WAN is really not the issue.  There are many ways to skin a cat. (sorry Em.)

                    There is nothing wrong with me or someone else saying that pre-test drawings throw off the stats.  Perhaps they do, and it does not diminish the argument at all.  In fact, it bolsters it.

                    If the numbers are truly random, then they should adhere to the mathematical precepts of random numbers — that over time the numbers will generally be selected more or less evenly.  If you can see the pre-test draws, then the missing data will most definitely affect your predicted outcome.

                    Any 5th grader studying probability knows that the more times you test a random event, the closer the results will be to the expected outcome.

                    I have no problem with pre-test drawings — as long as the lottery fully releases the draw data, with every drawing accounted for.  By hiding the pre-test data, the lottery is acting as if they are guarding important information — and they are, from my standpoint.

                    There is nothing about "having it both ways" here.  This is basic stuff.

                    There is absolutely no reason to move to computerized drawings.  The only affect on players is a negative one.

                     

                    Check the State Lottery Report Card
                    What grade did your lottery earn?

                     

                    Sign the Petition for True Lottery Drawings
                    Help eliminate computerized drawings!

                      Littleoldlady's avatar - basket
                      Clarksville
                      United States
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                      July 15, 2002
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                      Posted: April 11, 2008, 6:30 pm - IP Logged

                      I think the pre-draw information would come in very handy.  It is too bad we aren't privy to it.  We shouldn't have to send an SASE to the lottery Corp to get those results.  I use mainly vtracs and let me tell you..I have seen some things...there are certain days that "belong" to the computerized lottery and certain days you can hit.  It is almost like playing craps I guess..some combinations go to the "house" and others to the players.

                      If you know your number is going to hit, have patience and then KILL IT!

                      You never know when you will get another hit.

                        lotterybraker's avatar - pyramid
                        mississippi
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                        March 3, 2006
                        5903 Posts
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                        Posted: April 11, 2008, 6:42 pm - IP Logged

                        See I have this MAJOR PROBLEM..with Tampering..expecially the ball drawn states..Granted I dont live in a lottery State but I would ASSUME..that not everyone that works for the lottery has access to the balls or the machines..therefore if any tampering has been done would have to be attached to those that has access to the balls or machines..computers can be tampered with also..although I am no computer expert in fact I would classify myself as computer stupid..but a little extra code here or a little extra there I am sure they can get a combo to show after a certain sequence has shown or something to that effect..

                         

                        As far as the pre-test draws are concerned...you really need to find a better answer than to prevent tampering..ESPECIALLY WITH THE COMPUTER drawn states..did someone steal a combination out of the computer ..NO..they were present in that computer last time it was used..all of them should still be in there next time it is used..you can believe whatever you want..the main purpose of those pretest draws is throw off any patterns that are running..and I believe they are so secret..that some states will not even let you have them..that puts you at a disadvantage..because they know what numbers came up and are gone until it is time for the show again..YOU DONT GET THAT INFO..I commend Texas for at least putting the info on their website where others keep that info from the players..which SHOULD BE ILLEGAL..by all means..

                         

                        The Only True Random drawing there is !!!!

                        Turn the machine on and what 3 balls come out is the winner..and repeat that same process over and over and over and over..ANY COMBINATION THEY take out of the machine will have an effect on what you decide to play..PRE-TEST OR NOT!!!!

                        "Attention all Mathematicians: Check your degree at the door because when it comes to whole numbers you are the Amateur"

                          Avatar
                          NY
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                          October 16, 2005
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                          Posted: April 12, 2008, 1:53 am - IP Logged

                          If you're so worried about tampering why would you think that tampering isn't a good reason for doing pre-tests? You should be thrilled that they do pre-tests, and you should be asking them to do more.

                          Anyone with a lick of sense would never do a drawing without checking the machine (whether a ball machine or a computer) first, to make sure that it is working properly as far as they can tell. Besides the (very slim) possibility of tampering, there are all sorts of things that could simply go wrong. Things break. It's as simple as that. It's impossible to prevent all unexpected failures, but having several successful draws after starting the process reduces the chances that the real drawing will be interrupted by a problem.

                          In the case of computerized drawings, everyone who's afraid that some massive conspiracy will result in a rigged outcome should want plenty of pre-tests, where the results aren't revealed. In the event that there was a software issue designed to produce a specific result plenty of pre-tests increase the chances that such a result would occur during a test, rather than a real drawing. Not revealing the results of the pre-tests would mean that the conspirators would have less chance of being able to detect any results that would otherwise tip them off to a future result. Even if the program was designed to produce a specific result based on some set of circumstances, it would be a trivial matter for a good security program to keep that result, if it even happened, from benefitting anyone unless nearly everyone involved was part of the conspiracy.

                          For ball machines pre-tests should also be part of the overall security procedures. In the unlikely event that there is enough of a departure from randomness  that it might matter, having random numbers of pre-tests will help conceal it. That doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage, though it  could theoretically limit the advantage of those who search for patterns, or non-randomness. For those who are confused about the reason for pre-tests, they're for the benefit of the lottery's security, and players aren't entitled to know the results.

                            Badger's avatar - adu50016 NorthAmericanBadger.jpg
                            Wisconsin
                            United States
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                            March 27, 2003
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                            Posted: April 12, 2008, 8:06 am - IP Logged

                            As far as I'm concerned, this is just another example of how you can take statistics and throw them in the litter box if you are observing short-term draws. I've seen way, way too many "odd" occurances in draws in all states over the years.  If everything actually fell "as it should" in the Pick 3, then the longest-out digits and combinations would be drawn each day.   It "don't work that way".

                            It's only over the long run that things fall into place. In 3 or 4 days of draws, anything can happen that is 180 degrees from what "should" happen.  It may also be true that someone didn't clean out the RNG cache in TN and this happened.  But that wouldn't be the first time, or the first state that it happened in..  Sticking too closely to logic with digits is probably no better in the short term predictions than is using "illogic".  So you just do the best you can.

                            ============

                            How can you tell if a politician is lying?

                            Answer: His lips are moving.

                              lotterybraker's avatar - pyramid
                              mississippi
                              United States
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                              March 3, 2006
                              5903 Posts
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                              Posted: April 12, 2008, 2:41 pm - IP Logged

                              If you're so worried about tampering why would you think that tampering isn't a good reason for doing pre-tests? You should be thrilled that they do pre-tests, and you should be asking them to do more.

                              Anyone with a lick of sense would never do a drawing without checking the machine (whether a ball machine or a computer) first, to make sure that it is working properly as far as they can tell. Besides the (very slim) possibility of tampering, there are all sorts of things that could simply go wrong. Things break. It's as simple as that. It's impossible to prevent all unexpected failures, but having several successful draws after starting the process reduces the chances that the real drawing will be interrupted by a problem.

                              In the case of computerized drawings, everyone who's afraid that some massive conspiracy will result in a rigged outcome should want plenty of pre-tests, where the results aren't revealed. In the event that there was a software issue designed to produce a specific result plenty of pre-tests increase the chances that such a result would occur during a test, rather than a real drawing. Not revealing the results of the pre-tests would mean that the conspirators would have less chance of being able to detect any results that would otherwise tip them off to a future result. Even if the program was designed to produce a specific result based on some set of circumstances, it would be a trivial matter for a good security program to keep that result, if it even happened, from benefitting anyone unless nearly everyone involved was part of the conspiracy.

                              For ball machines pre-tests should also be part of the overall security procedures. In the unlikely event that there is enough of a departure from randomness  that it might matter, having random numbers of pre-tests will help conceal it. That doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage, though it  could theoretically limit the advantage of those who search for patterns, or non-randomness. For those who are confused about the reason for pre-tests, they're for the benefit of the lottery's security, and players aren't entitled to know the results.

                              Ky Floyd...have you ever gone to Play Bingo anywhere....

                               

                              They have all the balls out in their hole before they start bingo and have someone come up and check the machine TO MAKE SURE ALL THE BALLS ARE PRESENT AND ACCOUNTED FOR before they start playing..after that there is no pretesting the balls..or machines..or none of that bullcrap..

                               

                              You Know what..I am 45 years old..and I have been playing Bingo since I was a little boy with my Mom..maybe..once or twice in the past 30 years or so have I ever seen the BINGO BALL SHOOT, shoot out a number and it Bounced around on the floor..they just picked it up and put it in the monitor so everyone could see it..NO BIG DEAL...now..is the lotteries machines and balls made by some 3rd world country whos craftsmanship is so shabby that they have to test GOD KNOWS how many times before and probably God knows how many times after a draw..there is nothing wrong with their equipment..their equipment works just fine..and will work just fine and even if a ball does get stuck..SO WHAT...HAVE an observer there to reach in and get it out..They try to make things much harder than they should be..

                               

                              TO make sure the Equipment works fine...<snip>...why in the hell would you need to pretest after the damn draw for..you just pretested before the draw to get to the PAYING DRAW..after the paying draw they PRETEST AGAIN...for what?..

                               

                              ANY COMBINATION..I dont care if it is ONE BALL..2 BALLS..3 BALLS..10 balls..it will mess up NATURAL FLOW..because the next combination they take out SHOULD BE NEXT..oh I am wired up now..hahaha..I only found out about these pretests draws after joining LP here 2 years ago..because I always wondered why I worked up a set of numbers they wouldnt show til months later or longer and I knew there was something wrong and didnt know what it was..now I do!!!!

                              "Attention all Mathematicians: Check your degree at the door because when it comes to whole numbers you are the Amateur"