West Concord, MN United States Member #21 December 7, 2001 3675 Posts Offline

Posted: May 20, 2008, 3:24 pm - IP Logged

irmediator and benmas,

thanks for the feedback; i do appreciate your comments. however, i'm working over a surprising discovery right now. just keep a look out for something amazing to come up.

Presented 'AS IS' and for Entertainment Purposes Only. Any gain or loss is your responsibility. Use at your own risk.

Order is a Subset of Chaos Knowledge is Beyond Belief Wisdom is Not Censored Douglas Paul Smallish Jehocifer

Canton, Ohio United States Member #61347 May 19, 2008 2 Posts Offline

Posted: May 20, 2008, 4:22 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by benmas on May 19, 2008

OK, lets say he is right and somehow proved that is not random but manipulated....So next what do you do...I see only three options left for a player after these findings:

1) Not play this game anymore

2) Not play all the Wisconsion RNG games anymore

3) Write to lottery or newspapers and tell them to switch to balls (<<< this will in all likeliness be largely ignored as well as your claims that they are manipulating the games)

In my opinion if you have reason to beleive that something is manipulated and the odds of fixing it are not good then you are left with options 1 or 2 and not play lotto anymore...

Dear benmas:

Option 4) play and win! :) The patterns in the numbers repeat themselves too often to be ignored. Tell you what... hand input the results of just one game of your choice from 5 years past into an excel sheet. What you will see are inexplicable patterns in the numbers. Clusters of the same numbers and pairs repeating themselves within short time spans. Even the most casual observer will come to the same conclusion, that statistically this shouldn't be happening. Therefore, observe and figure out the patterns and ones odds will be dramatically improved enough to win the smaller prize amounts more consistently, say prizes from $1.00 to $10,000.00 USD Though this isn't millions, enough of these smaller prizes won will most certainly add up and consequently could generate a decent income. That to me is a more feasible and intelligent strategy, should one choose to play the lottery. And who knows, perhaps just by chance one would beat the odds and win millions. And that is part of the fun of playing the lottery, the expectation of the unknown. In a sense it is a form of entertainment. That to me is partly what we spend our money on... to get our hearts pounding, just before the nightly broadcast. ;)

Hillsborough United States Member #61575 May 28, 2008 7 Posts Offline

Posted: May 28, 2008, 12:58 pm - IP Logged

Hello, I'm new here but this grabbed my attention, I would like to add more Data here...no I would like More data. While you are clearly on a mathematical track to a target using the probability system with what would happen IF. If you are trying to say A lotto is rigged you would be in fact saying some one rigged it, without all the data I would hope that a few things would be considered:

Ball weight: ball 1 can not weigh the same as ball 50, ink over area proves that.

Base Ball weight: each ball is formed from 2 half's and sanded down and glazed. adding or reducing the weight of the ball.

Balls life: (guessing here) 50+ balls banging in to each other over a period of time makes dents marks scratches,

Balls roundness: (nothing here but conjecture) I play paintball and have done a fair amount of research in ball size and found that most balls of any sport is never the same size.

Touching the balls: any one knows if you touch anything you add a film of oil on to said object, now did said person wash hands? or use lotion?

Temperature or humidity: cold heavy - hot light. What is the temp of the room? Is it consistent?

Having said all that-or asked. We are trying to say that the game is fixed. meaning we are saying that some one is (fixing) it. If so then one would ask to what means, Plot?

Has any one ever tried to plot a winners map (peg board) While we are trying to use math here I would also add there are factors that need to be explored as well, Force of air on any ball should be the same result As 50/50 if this is to be, then over a period of time all balls would have the same count of hits give or take the fraction of 50/50 divided by the number of balls. And here we need to define what would be a reasonable time frame for 50/50? Conjecture would be the 146,107,926 (Or odds of winning) Power Ball

Not sure if any one COULD get that data but if you are REALLY trying to investigate such a claim of fraud on lotto then these questions might help.

And to test this:

Get all lotto game stats (games with Balls over 50 played) and show them side by side to see if the random and 50/50 is working or is there a odd game out there that is producing a unique set of numbers and patterns.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7308 Posts Offline

Posted: May 28, 2008, 5:36 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by benmas on May 19, 2008

OK, lets say he is right and somehow proved that is not random but manipulated....So next what do you do...I see only three options left for a player after these findings:

1) Not play this game anymore

2) Not play all the Wisconsion RNG games anymore

3) Write to lottery or newspapers and tell them to switch to balls (<<< this will in all likeliness be largely ignored as well as your claims that they are manipulating the games)

In my opinion if you have reason to beleive that something is manipulated and the odds of fixing it are not good then you are left with options 1 or 2 and not play lotto anymore...

I've followed this discussing since it began back in December and never though the object was to prove the Wisconsin lottery is cheating. That would be more like knowing which batch of scratch-off tickets had the jackpot winner, placing those tickets in an area or in a specific store, or not offering them for sale until they made their expected profit. It's possible they could scan the played combinations in pick-5 or lotto games and program the RNG to exclude them or only include the combinations bought in an area. But proof would involve bugging the lottery office and taping conversations.

Actual proof the Badger 5 RNG is fixed would require duplicating the RNG 5 number drawing everyday but I don't think the objective is to blow the whistle on the state lottery and I can't think of one logical reason why I would quit playing a game where I could win at least $10,000 every time I played.

Jade's method is to find 12 numbers that include the 5 numbers drawn. If he is successful once a week, it won't matter if he failed to prove it's fixed.

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7308 Posts Offline

Posted: May 28, 2008, 8:54 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by KebRyo on May 28, 2008

Hello, I'm new here but this grabbed my attention, I would like to add more Data here...no I would like More data. While you are clearly on a mathematical track to a target using the probability system with what would happen IF. If you are trying to say A lotto is rigged you would be in fact saying some one rigged it, without all the data I would hope that a few things would be considered:

Ball weight: ball 1 can not weigh the same as ball 50, ink over area proves that.

Base Ball weight: each ball is formed from 2 half's and sanded down and glazed. adding or reducing the weight of the ball.

Balls life: (guessing here) 50+ balls banging in to each other over a period of time makes dents marks scratches,

Balls roundness: (nothing here but conjecture) I play paintball and have done a fair amount of research in ball size and found that most balls of any sport is never the same size.

Touching the balls: any one knows if you touch anything you add a film of oil on to said object, now did said person wash hands? or use lotion?

Temperature or humidity: cold heavy - hot light. What is the temp of the room? Is it consistent?

Having said all that-or asked. We are trying to say that the game is fixed. meaning we are saying that some one is (fixing) it. If so then one would ask to what means, Plot?

Has any one ever tried to plot a winners map (peg board) While we are trying to use math here I would also add there are factors that need to be explored as well, Force of air on any ball should be the same result As 50/50 if this is to be, then over a period of time all balls would have the same count of hits give or take the fraction of 50/50 divided by the number of balls. And here we need to define what would be a reasonable time frame for 50/50? Conjecture would be the 146,107,926 (Or odds of winning) Power Ball

Not sure if any one COULD get that data but if you are REALLY trying to investigate such a claim of fraud on lotto then these questions might help.

And to test this:

Get all lotto game stats (games with Balls over 50 played) and show them side by side to see if the random and 50/50 is working or is there a odd game out there that is producing a unique set of numbers and patterns.

Now keep the flaming down to a mild roar.

Just thinking out loud

Keb

Badger 5 is a 5/31 game that uses a RNG and I believe the affects of trying to prove the game is fixed is to find a group of 12 numbers that consistently has 4 or 5 of the drawn numbers. Finding a flaw in a RNG could benefit players.

"Get all lotto game stats (games with Balls over 50 played) and show them side by side to see if the random and 50/50 is working or is there a odd game out there that is producing a unique set of numbers and patterns."

The Tennessee Lottery had some unique patterns in their pick-3 and pick-4 games last summer when they switched from live ball drawings to RNG; especially when players noticed there were no doubles drawn for over a week. It's possible there are other examples of that happening in twice a day drawings in ball drawn lotteries but not for two straight weeks. Ball drawings use 3 or 4 sets in 3 or 4 different containers but there is no balls or containers to see in a RNG so nobody saw that the 3 digits were being drawn from 1 set of 10 digits.

The numbers drawn were random but that doesn't mean much to the players that tore up their losing doubles, triples, and quad tickets.

West Concord, MN United States Member #21 December 7, 2001 3675 Posts Offline

Posted: June 16, 2008, 7:51 pm - IP Logged

irmediator, KebRyo and Stack47,

I'll get back to ya's later. I've got a lot going on now: son's recent graduation, an up and coming career advancement with my current employer, prepping my home for a possible sale and additional programming issues as it relates to this topic, other topics and JADE LSG 2.0.

Presented 'AS IS' and for Entertainment Purposes Only. Any gain or loss is your responsibility. Use at your own risk.

Order is a Subset of Chaos Knowledge is Beyond Belief Wisdom is Not Censored Douglas Paul Smallish Jehocifer

Pelham NY United States Member #60411 April 16, 2008 169 Posts Offline

Posted: June 16, 2008, 8:44 pm - IP Logged

I don't think the Wisconson Badger game is rigged, I just think there's a lot of repeating patterns. Besides who benefits from the rigging? Lotteries don't have to rig thier games since they clearly have the advantage. Also one can use the repeating patterns to ones advantage no?

mid-Ohio United States Member #9 March 24, 2001 19825 Posts Online

Posted: June 16, 2008, 9:16 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by MysteryMan424 on June 16, 2008

I don't think the Wisconson Badger game is rigged, I just think there's a lot of repeating patterns. Besides who benefits from the rigging? Lotteries don't have to rig thier games since they clearly have the advantage. Also one can use the repeating patterns to ones advantage no?

What are these repeating patterns that you have identified and how did you find them? I've been trying to come with a way to identify patterns and classify them so I might use them to pick combinations for future games. Winning combinations in most games have numbers that have hit in the previous 20 drawings or less. If they are more likely to also have a pattern, it's possible that they may be covered with less than 50% of the number pool which would give a huge advantage to any players with that information.

The information that system players have been seeking to give themselves an advantage may be right in face every time they look at a list of past winners but they can't see it.

* you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket *

What are these repeating patterns that you have identified and how did you find them? I've been trying to come with a way to identify patterns and classify them so I might use them to pick combinations for future games. Winning combinations in most games have numbers that have hit in the previous 20 drawings or less. If they are more likely to also have a pattern, it's possible that they may be covered with less than 50% of the number pool which would give a huge advantage to any players with that information.

The information that system players have been seeking to give themselves an advantage may be right in face every time they look at a list of past winners but they can't see it.

RJOH - In a past post......I think it was in a discussion about position play....I mentioned that 4 of the winning Powerball numbers would come out of the first position or first column perhaps every 5 to 8 draws. Once all 5 came out of the first position in just the last 12 draws. You are right about the last 20 draws having 4 or 5 of the winning numbers much of the time, at least in Powerball. I use Gail Howard's software to print out chart B, a chart that prints out 40 or 50 of the last draws with all of the numbers for each draw. Beside these is another chart that shows the past draw position that each number that hit came from and beside that is a column that shows how many of the winning numbers came from the last 20 draws. Within this section of the program, one can also print out the chart that shows the last time that each number hit and its position by draws back. This is the chart I use to select numbers from. After each draw, I circle the winning numbers on this chart. I can then easily see how many numbers hit in the first position, 2nd position, 3rd position, 4th position, and 5th position. Of course there will be less and less numbers in each of these positions as they move across the page as each number only shows one time...the last time it hit. So much of the time there will be maybe 3 hits coming from the first position numbers, then the rest will usually come from position 2 or 3. The first position will have the most numbers in the game, perhaps about half or 25 in Powerball. I keep a chart showing the column position that each number hit from each time also. I use this info to try to cut down on the numbers I select. When I think it is about time for 4 or 5 numbers to come out of the first position, I concentrate on picking most numbers from this position with a few from either position 2, 3, 4 or 5, whichever of these I think is most likely to bring a hit. One can also hone in on a certain hit sometimes when it appears that is is time for a number to come from position (or column) 5. I am presently using a "pair" system where I put my numbers together in pairs that I think will hit and I use one key number. I then play every pair with every other pair which gives me a combo of 4 numbers plus the key number. This is a "Jackpot" guarantee system if any 2 of the pairs plus the key number are selected. The "jackpot" being getting 5 numbers with powerplay and hoping it is "5" so that I win $1,000,000. One can adjust this system to ones budget by adding or taking away pairs. I usually use 5 pairs (10 numbers) with the key number. This results in 10 combinations. I also play the Powerplay option, so the cost is $20. For the powerball, I usually play 2 numbers that I think are due and alternate them among the plays. I have gone as high as 8 pairs (16 numbers) with 1 key number which results in 28 combinations. That cost $56 with the powerplay. The pair system results in more numbers covered for a jackpot system for much less cost that regular wheeling . For example a straight full combination system for just 7 numbers results in 21 combinations. So the tradeoff is less "ifs" with the 7 number system, but about the same cost as the "more ifs" pair system that covers more numbers.

mid-Ohio United States Member #9 March 24, 2001 19825 Posts Online

Posted: June 18, 2008, 8:47 pm - IP Logged

Lottobrain, I've read post about the charts in GH software by members who used her stuff but non so far have said they actually used them to pick a winners.

* you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket *

Lottobrain, I've read post about the charts in GH software by members who used her stuff but non so far have said they actually used them to pick a winners.

I use lottery software to print out basic charts to aid me in making my own "paper and pencil" charts that I use to see various trends in the number patterns. I am usually looking for patterns in the way the numbers come so that I can try to pick my numbers to play along these patterns. I also made up a chart to track Powerball with the "AAABC", etc. type of pattern that you had discussed in another post. I break this pattern up based on the last 20 draws in powerball. Any numbers that hit in the last 5 draws are my "A" numbers, any numbers that hit in draws 6-10 are my "B" numbers, any numbers that hit in draws 11-15 are my "C" numbers, any numbers that hit in 16-20 draws back are my "D" numbers. After 20 draws back any number that hits is an "E". This chart shows me over time which of these groups might be most due for a hit or multiple hits just as I use the 1st thru 5th columns for possible position hits based on "due columns" and "draws back" due positions. I find that trying to track too many variables though just leads to trouble in number selection. I also made a chart that tracks the end digits that hit each draw so that I can have a visual of this over time to guess the end digit pattern that I may think will hit and select numbers from the last 20 draws to stay within a reasonable approach to my selection based on the other chart patterns. These are just some of my paper and pencil charting ideas I use that might give others some ideas.

mid-Ohio United States Member #9 March 24, 2001 19825 Posts Online

Posted: June 19, 2008, 6:00 pm - IP Logged

I tried tracking games with better odds than PowerBall using that "AABBCC" system and while the odds were improved 200% the payouts amounts eliminated any advantage gained.

For example I played the Ohio Classic Lotto which has overall odds of 1:54 of winning a prize (the smallest and most likely being $2). The odds of matching 3 for $2 is 1:57 and I've regularly matched three 1-2 times with 20 lines which wins $2-$4. To make any money or break even I would need to match 4 for $70 more often and the odds of doing that are 1:1032 which means I would have to improve my odds of winning a prize by 1,500%-2,000% instead of the 200% that I've managed so far.

Right now my only defense against going broke playing the lotteries is to only spend what I can afford to lose and expect to lose it. Getting lucky is still the only way I could ever come out ahead and I can't plan that.

* you don't need to buy more tickets, just buy a winning ticket *

Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: June 20, 2008, 1:04 pm - IP Logged

How you prove is rigged? whenever you see in Powerball combinations that have four 6's, or four 3's, or four 2's or four 8's , etc, etc twice in less than 1 month...What do I mean? if you see the combination 6, 16, 26, 36 42 (with four 6's on it) and if you see such a combination play twice in 1 month or 2 months or 3 months, then your game is rigged....

If you also see four 5's and multiples of it and by that i mean if you see 5, 15, 20, 30, and then a number, and if you see this appear 2 times in less than 3 months, then your game is rigged..

I've looked at Powerball drawings for 2007, and i found some where stuff that shouldn't happen and the odd of it happening are so small yet i don't know what to say...For example i seen i think it was three 6's then three 4's and then three 8's ONE AFTER THE OTHER, which shouldn't happened, yet i've seen them in Powerball in 2007...And i am thinking the odds of that happening are like winning Powerball 3 times in a row with 1 ticket, yet they happened....

And you know what has me more worry, is knowing that each drawing is the 5th pre-test drawing or whatever number...Such scenarios should NEVER occur...yet they happen...is weird...If Powerball was RNG it will had been even worse...

Is the odds/chances, the odds/chances of such scenarios happening is...it shouldn't happen...

Kentucky United States Member #32652 February 14, 2006 7308 Posts Offline

Posted: June 21, 2008, 8:24 pm - IP Logged

Quote: Originally posted by pumpi76 on June 20, 2008

How you prove is rigged? whenever you see in Powerball combinations that have four 6's, or four 3's, or four 2's or four 8's , etc, etc twice in less than 1 month...What do I mean? if you see the combination 6, 16, 26, 36 42 (with four 6's on it) and if you see such a combination play twice in 1 month or 2 months or 3 months, then your game is rigged....

If you also see four 5's and multiples of it and by that i mean if you see 5, 15, 20, 30, and then a number, and if you see this appear 2 times in less than 3 months, then your game is rigged..

I've looked at Powerball drawings for 2007, and i found some where stuff that shouldn't happen and the odd of it happening are so small yet i don't know what to say...For example i seen i think it was three 6's then three 4's and then three 8's ONE AFTER THE OTHER, which shouldn't happened, yet i've seen them in Powerball in 2007...And i am thinking the odds of that happening are like winning Powerball 3 times in a row with 1 ticket, yet they happened....

And you know what has me more worry, is knowing that each drawing is the 5th pre-test drawing or whatever number...Such scenarios should NEVER occur...yet they happen...is weird...If Powerball was RNG it will had been even worse...

Is the odds/chances, the odds/chances of such scenarios happening is...it shouldn't happen...

"If you also see four 5's and multiples of it and by that i mean if you see 5, 15, 20, 30, and then a number, and if you see this appear 2 times in less than 3 months, then your game is rigged.."

Excluding the power ball, there are 14,520 combinations with 4 numbers with multiples of 5 and you could expect to see it happen once out of every 250 drawings. I did a quick look back to January 2006 and couldn't find where that happened once so maybe it's due. And since it should average two hits in 500 draws and it's been at least 250 drawings since the last time, it could happen twice in the next 250 drawings. If that happens within 3 month period, it might be worth a "how about that", but it certainly wouldn't prove the game was rigged.

Assuming you're including the powerball numbers where 19% are multiples of 5 and matching one of them with one of the 156,090 combinations to reach your conclusion the drawings are rigged, you should have done the math first. And since there are 1,248,720 combinations like that, it doesn't even deserve a "how about that" if it hits twice in 3 months.

"For example i seen i think it was three 6's then three 4's and then three 8's ONE AFTER THE OTHER, which shouldn't happened, yet i've seen them in Powerball in 2007..."

Powerball is not a raffle where after a combination of numbers are drawn, they are eliminated from future play. 55 numbered balls are placed in a container, mixed in a way that each number has an equal chance of being one of 5 numbers drawn. In the next draw 55 numbered balls will again be put into a container and the process is repeated. While it seems unlikely that 2 number would repeat from the previous drawing, there are 195,999 other combinations with two of those numbers.

Why is it more unlikely to for you to see three numbers ending in 6 being followed by three 4s and three 8s than seeing 18-21-49 being followed by 9-11-50 and 12-39-52?

"Is the odds/chances, the odds/chances of such scenarios happening is...it shouldn't happen..."

In the early 1960s, Dr. Edward Thorpe used a super computer to simulate thousands of Black Jack hands and determined the player had an advantage when the ratio of tens and face cards to the other cards reached a certain level in the remaining cards in the deck. In actual play even though the odds favored him, it was still possible he could be dealt more of the remaining low cards than the dealer and lose. In overall play or 100s of times of raising his bet to the table limit when the deck reached his ratio it did show a big profit.

There are over 146 million possible Powerball combination; how many drawings would you have to simulate before you even start to determine what should or should not happen?

Honduras Member #20982 August 29, 2005 4715 Posts Offline

Posted: June 22, 2008, 10:16 pm - IP Logged

you can't use a supercomputer for blackjack or casino games or horse betting...YOu can only use a supercomputer for the lottery and the stock market...

they watch too much star trek and tv...

and the supercomputers they got know are nothing compare to what they had in 1985, 1975, 1965 or 1955...even though a supercomputer of 1985 could be helpful...