uh no. the game isn't "over" just because you don't like what's written in history, and your way of dealing with something you don't like is to disingenuienly try and dismiss it, in hopes that it will go away, so that you won't have to. nope.
intellectual integrity in a debate means you deal with the data placed before you, whether or not you are antagonistic toward it, or not.
you may not like "bible quotes", but call them whatever you think reduces that portion of HISTORY into the archives of hogwash. truth is joker, if you are going to call yourself a person OF "intellectual integrity", you are going to have to face the fact that the bible is a RECORDED document of history. you cannot debate that fact. been around what, several thousand years in written form. call it fables. call it fairly tales, i don't care. but what you can't ever say is that it "isn't" a pre-recorded historical document in written form, dating back HUNDREDS of years. hundreds of years BEFORE Christ was ever born.
if it had been written 20 years ago, you would still deny it's "historical recordation", because your heart won't allow you to accept the fact that no matter what you think about it, it's an historical document, and guess what? you may refute "intent" of said article, but you cannot refute the content. not even if you were blind, cuz it's written in braille too :)
so no, you can play the deflection "i don't wanna look at it game" with others, but not with me. integrity in the debate is key to finding out the truth about anything, and that's what i do. WE facillitate integrity until we see where it ends up.
so, back to the aspects of prophecy that man cannot manipulate, or "self fulfill", etc.
(1) the Messiah was prophecied to be born in an EXACT location, at an exact time in history. that is IMPOSSIBLE to manufacture. the bible was even specific which sector of bethlehem He was to be born, because there were TWO. check those two off as fulfilled...
(2) the prophet accurately predicted hundreds of years before it's occurance, that a certain star, one that astronomists (the 3 wise men) would track and recognize, would appear at a certain geographical location WHEN the Messiah was born. it would denote His arrival AND location. check that off as fulfilled, and impossible by man to manipulate.
(3) let's say mary & joseph entered into a co-conspiracy to sell the notion that their baby was the messiah. shoot, people join cults everyday and hand their mush minds over to all kinds of wacky propositions. trouble is, mary & joseph would have to not only "co-conspire" for 33 years, they would have showed up in bethelehem and had that baby at the EXACT SAME TIME the bible predicted, in order to even start that cult with validity. nope. you can't manipulate the timing of a birth, maybe it's location, but certianly not a star position over a city where it has NEVER aligned itsellf before.
can't manipulate that, joker.
how many more examples do you think it would take for you to get the idea i am conveying, that certain aspects of prophecy that were PRE-WRITTEN in history could NOT be manipulated, because i can always go on. and on. and on.
there are a TON more that contain those aspects.....the impossible by man to manipulate
take the events surrounding Christ death, and compare that to the PRE-RECORDED history that was intensely descriptive on how Christ would die, including aspects of his torture pre-crucifixion. one thing the richard dawkin's of the world (and you) cannot ever rectify is the human element - the one that's ANTAGONISTIC toward the claims, and the future of Christ.
the last thing someone who is antagonistic toward a figure like Christ, so that there isn't ANY possibility of helping to further the message/cause of Christ, is TO facillitate anything that would connotate Christ fulfilling the scriptures IN His death.
those guys were supportive cast members to say the least. they tortured Christ down to the "T" of what pre-recorded history said they would. if anything, that's reverse manipulation that backfired, and PROVED Gods word to be true.
i can serve up more examples. more that no one can manipulate. more that you cannot explain away, because they were facilitated by people who were AGAINST it all in the 1st place.
one thing you should do, is you should deny publically on this forum (since you started this debate), that the bible isn't pre-recorded history.
are you willing to say that, voter?
oh, and if you need me to, i can post the prophecy made "before", and the fulfilled "after" if you so desire
visionistaythecourseandmakenoexcusesdude