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Praying?

Topic closed. 421 replies. Last post 6 years ago by visiondude.

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RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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Posted: June 20, 2010, 9:32 pm - IP Logged

I could sit here and describe all the inconsistencies with not only the Bible stories, but most of the other major religions. But I will point out one inconsistency which has to do with Adam and Eve. I'm using this one because this event is used a lot as an excuse for why the world is messed up.

How can God blame Eve for eating the apple? This is what I mean about stories that people just take as truth. Think about it.

 

When she ate the apple, her eyes were opened, and she realized she was naked, and both of them ran and hid in the bushes. Now take a second and think about that for a moment. Once she ate the apple, her eyes opened up, and she knew right from wrong, cause she felt ashamed of being naked. How can God blame her for doing something wrong, which was to disobey God, if she didn't know right from wrong before eating of the apple? If there is a caveman in your living room, and you ask him to flip the lights on in the house with the light switch, would you yell at him for not knowing what a light switch is? Of course not...he didn't know, he was ignorant of the fact.

So that story makes no sense. On top of that, how can A God then decide to condemn all of humanity, based on what 2 humans did, while they were still blinded by the lack knowledge of good and evil? And then condemn not only them, but everyone else who is going to be born. That doesn't sound like a just God to me.

Didn't he take into consideration that I may acted differently in the same event. I might've actually decided not to eat of the apple. Even God would attest that everyone is different by nature. Not everyone likes beer. Not everyone likes horesradish. Some do some don't. How many people that could've been there in Eden, would make a differnt choice.

I've even heard of the defense, that everyone is living in a modern version of Eden, right here where we live now. And we all have the same tree of good and evil to eat from, or not. I don't buy that defense. Adam and eve knew for a fact that God existed. They talked to him. It's not the same. I don't know of anyone that had a conversation with God recently. I mean a one on one chat, with replies in a booming voice...lol

 

joker

You asked how, so I will give you another view.

I don't think that Adam and Eve were two people in a garden.  The garden was Earth.

No apple.

The serpent was not cursed until after they ate of the fruit.

before the eating of the fruit there was no sin, but eating the fruit 

Once the fruit had been eaten their eyes were open to sin

The nakedness here is not the lack of clothes, "think about it"

There nakedness must have been a sin before, If it was a sin,  but God had not allow them to see it

Once their eyes were open and they seen it, it came between them and God as they hid from him

a pandoras box if you will. the rest is history.

You mentioned that modern man could have been a experment in DNA by ET's, Who Knows?

 

RL

Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

  US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  


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    Posted: June 20, 2010, 9:37 pm - IP Logged

    joker

    You asked how, so I will give you another view.

    I don't think that Adam and Eve were two people in a garden.  The garden was Earth.

    No apple.

    The serpent was not cursed until after they ate of the fruit.

    before the eating of the fruit there was no sin, but eating the fruit 

    Once the fruit had been eaten their eyes were open to sin

    The nakedness here is not the lack of clothes, "think about it"

    There nakedness must have been a sin before, If it was a sin,  but God had not allow them to see it

    Once their eyes were open and they seen it, it came between them and God as they hid from him

    a pandoras box if you will. the rest is history.

    You mentioned that modern man could have been a experment in DNA by ET's, Who Knows?

     

    RL

    There nakedness must have been a sin before, If it was a sin,  but God had not allow them to see it

    If he didn't allow them to see it, how can he Blame them for it?

    As if, there's a God who creates the universe, and has nothing better to do than play mind games. Silly.......

      RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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      Posted: June 20, 2010, 9:40 pm - IP Logged

      Yes, but not for a winning lottery ticket. 

      When I was very young I read The Monkey's Paw and it haunted me. Although there have been different versions of the story, it's a horror story written in England in 1902. 

      For those who don't know the story, it's about the curse of interferring with fate and not trusting the path that has been chosen for you.  To summarize, a monkey's paw is supposed to grant 3 wishes to whoever owns it.   A couple comes into possession of the paw and wishes for a large sum of money.  Their son, who works at a factory, gets caught in the machinery and is mangled to death.  The workman's compensation check is delivered to the parents and, when the father opens the envelope, the amount is exactly what he wished for. 

      So, do I believe in wishing for good things to happen?  Yes.  But I think prayer is to look at everything you have and ask how to turn your life into something better, how to cope with your pain, how to lift yourself out of a dark, gloomy place and walk towards the light and, if winning a lot of money is one way to get there, then maybe that will be part of the plan too.

      justxploring

       

      The Monkey's Paw, I read that one to as a child. Think I will read it again.  It was the camp fire

      tale of tales.

       

      RL

      Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

      I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

      they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

      USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

        US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  

        RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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        Posted: June 20, 2010, 9:45 pm - IP Logged

        There nakedness must have been a sin before, If it was a sin,  but God had not allow them to see it

        If he didn't allow them to see it, how can he Blame them for it?

        As if, there's a God who creates the universe, and has nothing better to do than play mind games. Silly.......

        joker

        I don't  think you understand what I am saying now.  And I know you are very smart.

        RL

        Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

        I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

        they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

        USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

          US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  

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          Harbinger
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          Posted: June 20, 2010, 10:11 pm - IP Logged

          I referring to what you said about the debators being wrong, not dying.

          Right/wrong,......  it don't matter,  they will die as we all will.   If they are right,  that's it,  if they are wrong, that's it. 

          You will find out,  no question, no doubt,  get in touch with yo' mortality.


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            Posted: June 20, 2010, 10:13 pm - IP Logged

            joker

            I don't  think you understand what I am saying now.  And I know you are very smart.

            RL

            Ok, so you're saying they were metaphors, but now here is another version, among 1,000 different ones. You didn't help your case....lol

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              Posted: June 20, 2010, 10:14 pm - IP Logged

              I must tell you that you are mistaken,  and there is a day when you will face ALMIGHTY GOD and That is the Truth!!!

              I may face him one day, and If that actually happens, I hope he is a God that is a little more understanding than the one that Christians depict. The narrow entry into heaven just doesn't work in the real world. He created different people, so he would naturally be expected tolerate different belief systems, and not condemn them.

              I don't have to worry about that because I know in my gut, after years and years of dealing with this, that I may not know all the answers, but what I do know, is that all the religions can't be correct, therefore, I don't believe in any of them. I'm spiritual to an extent, but that's it. I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but I also expect, in a perfect world, that others who are religious may one day  do the same, and  not say others are wrong. Someone has to be wrong. They all can't be right...lol

              Good luck to you....

               

               

              ....Some one has to be wrong...." Now Joker on that we do agree!! 

              Joker did you know that Adam and eve was so pure and uncontaminated that their bodies was covered in Light!!!!   The same light that Made Moses Face to shine because He was in the Presence of GOD!!! for so long

              They too was always in HIS presence! They Glow always, However, after they violated ALMIGHTY GOD"s Law the light left their bodies they had contaminated themselves with sin,  the light was gone, it was then that they saw their nakedness!!!   You are right about religion!  Study, search look to the bible, read the book of enoch..!!

              forget what "they" say about youWhat you say about you?...

              Now, does it count??

               

               

              *Jr$ina


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                Posted: June 20, 2010, 10:15 pm - IP Logged

                Right/wrong,......  it don't matter,  they will die as we all will.   If they are right,  that's it,  if they are wrong, that's it. 

                You will find out,  no question, no doubt,  get in touch with yo' mortality.

                Fine, but you still made the assertion that they would be wrong. That's what I'm addressing and nothing else.


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                  Posted: June 20, 2010, 10:18 pm - IP Logged

                  The debate will continue but once you die you will get your answer..... Hitchins will, Dawkins will,  we all will get the "answer".  Unfortunately for them they will never be able to apologize they were mistaken,... or say nanny nanny boo boo we were right.

                   Unfortunately for them they will never be able to apologize they were mistaken,... or say nanny nanny boo boo we were right.

                  That specific part of your quote was what I was referring to when I wrote...." And you know this for a fact".


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                    Posted: June 20, 2010, 10:25 pm - IP Logged

                    ....Some one has to be wrong...." Now Joker on that we do agree!! 

                    Joker did you know that Adam and eve was so pure and uncontaminated that their bodies was covered in Light!!!!   The same light that Made Moses Face to shine because He was in the Presence of GOD!!! for so long

                    They too was always in HIS presence! They Glow always, However, after they violated ALMIGHTY GOD"s Law the light left their bodies they had contaminated themselves with sin,  the light was gone, it was then that they saw their nakedness!!!   You are right about religion!  Study, search look to the bible, read the book of enoch..!!

                    Joker did you know that Adam and eve was so pure and uncontaminated that their bodies was covered in Light!!!!   The same light that Made Moses Face to shine because He was in the Presence of GOD!!! for so long

                    Again, this is just another interpretation of stories that were handed down from generation to generation.

                      RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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                      Posted: June 20, 2010, 11:13 pm - IP Logged

                      joker

                      I have nothing to prove, not once in this post have I even tried.  Now I ask you to prove God does not

                      exist.  I keep waiting to hear somthing from you that anybody with a computer can't get from a google

                      search.  Somthing original, not found on the web or cable news show.  I have to admit I expected more

                      from you.  All of your replies echo a google search mingled with old news.  Lets say no God exsist then

                      why even talk about it.  And the 20,000 kids a day, what are you doing to help them.  How much have

                      you sent to help feed them.  You set there and blame a God that doesn't exist for a  problem that you

                      do nothing about.  I think the clock is up to around 60,000 to 80,000 and counting since this post

                      started.  I would like to thank you for all the people that you have convinced that God does not exist

                      as now they won't be helping the poor dying kids either.  I hope this has been more fun for you than

                      it has been for me. LOL

                      RL

                      Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

                      I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

                      they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

                      USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

                        US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  

                        visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
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                        Posted: June 20, 2010, 11:29 pm - IP Logged
                        Christianity isn't so much about belief of proof it's about ones acceptance in the faith that god exists that if you follow the teachings of the religion you find beneficial to your over well being. It's a commitment you make as an individual to cleanse yourself of any evil thoughts, deeds, or sins and to make each day forward from there in the purist form of the faith. To do good to make the vessel ready for the next life so your soul will enter the kingdom without fear of going to hell. And well if you fully accept the cause to become a disciple of the religion and try to convert non believers and to minister to the members and non members of the religion.
                         
                        Now to switch gears a little i think religion was a way for the leaders of early earth time to control the masses. The people were more or less forced to accept whatever religion that was going down in their area. And that continued for 1500 plus years after Christ died. Now religion is an acceptable way for people to live over 90% of the world populace believes in god.

                        if you are talking about Christianty "the religion", then yes,  your statement above is correct,  and you can also include the thousands of worldwide religions/sects into that description right alongside Christianity the "religion".

                        but Christ is a PERSON, and He NEVER promoted a religion in any way, shape or form.  He is the means of salvation, and not some "methodology" tainted by mans hands, and thereby turning it into a "have to do, or you don't have a chance".

                        Christ Himself eliminated that

                        the difference between a a man who follows Christianity the "religion", and Christ the "PERSON"?

                        eternity.

                        no man can earn salvation.  not even when applying "Christian principles", because then,  you are basing your salavation on the works of your life, and no one can accomplish that life long feat.

                        that's where trusting in Christ alone, makes all the eternal difference

                                    "i am .........."meant to"       

                        P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                                 until further notice,  it's  france everyday

                          RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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                          Posted: June 20, 2010, 11:53 pm - IP Logged

                          if you are talking about Christianty "the religion", then yes,  your statement above is correct,  and you can also include the thousands of worldwide religions/sects into that description right alongside Christianity the "religion".

                          but Christ is a PERSON, and He NEVER promoted a religion in any way, shape or form.  He is the means of salvation, and not some "methodology" tainted by mans hands, and thereby turning it into a "have to do, or you don't have a chance".

                          Christ Himself eliminated that

                          the difference between a a man who follows Christianity the "religion", and Christ the "PERSON"?

                          eternity.

                          no man can earn salvation.  not even when applying "Christian principles", because then,  you are basing your salavation on the works of your life, and no one can accomplish that life long feat.

                          that's where trusting in Christ alone, makes all the eternal difference

                          visiondude

                          Great answer.

                          the difference between a a man who follows Christianity the "religion", and Christ the "PERSON"? eternity.

                          These verses show this is correct Bible teaching.

                          matt 7 vs 22 and 23

                          Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

                          And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

                          Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

                          I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

                          they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

                          USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

                            US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  


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                            Posted: June 21, 2010, 12:04 am - IP Logged

                            "How can God blame Eve for eating the apple? This is what I mean about stories that people just take as truth. Think about it."

                            I don’t get you joker, nobody but you can reference the book to document a point according to your rules, yet you continue to refer to the book to make your points. Here is one I would like to make and there is no apple in the event you wish to question. That idea is a fable taught by many. It is a true statement to say it is a story because the record does not agree. And,… where did you get the idea God blamed Eve? Who was the one that was confronted? Your A: more lies in the form of wrong doctrine. No wonder you are confused. What you think is in print is not there. You are equally at fault for the many denominations of different doctrine you squeal about. But,… friend;

                            Let’s say you know better (I think so) and you know the apple and blaming Eve is not in the book. You still wish to make points about the book while no one else is allowed. Play fair!

                            Between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 is the period where everything that is older than about 6,000 years can be found. Yes, the universe is some several billion years old. "In the beginning" is still an accurate statement. Here in that book you find a distinct mission statement by the Author that did not take eons of experiments to establish the present earth we know as evidenced in fossils. …Six days and on the seventh he rested.

                            Quite a statement and what you find out later in the book, His right –hand top dude tried to pull rank. The same dude that does genetic mods because he or it not only knows how to do it, he/it can! It has the ability to manipulate the things created, but cannot create something from nothing. 

                            It is as skilled to genetically design from what is available as the Creator.

                            Diseases of the blood, weeds, genetic giants, birth defects; signs of order being turned into chaos. The first heaven/earth in Gen 1:1 was in order. In Gen 1:2 it is wasted. Plenty of water passed under the bridge between those two verses. GR Cosmos= created ; an ornament. Something coveted it that had ability to animate life; the Exorcist movie possessed animations are real except for the 180 head spin. That would kill the host. Possession is the absence of freedom of will. The true God does not possess.

                            Six days is a mission statement and when He was done he rested and saw that all was good. No maintenance contracts required for Haliburton to keep it going. No need for control of life or animation. Now that there is another than Adam in dominion, fair play from a just God is winning things back. If you did not have freedom of will you could not chose between two choices.

                            Gen1:28 To Adam and Eve:

                            …. Replenish the earth, and subdue it,….

                            Re-plenish. Do you understand what that word means?       give it some thought.

                            respectfully,

                            DD

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                              Posted: June 21, 2010, 12:21 am - IP Logged

                               

                              Be my guest, but If you start with Bible quotes, then the game is over. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself over and over.

                              For centuries, the greatest minds have debated this subject, and no proof has ever surfaced. If you can do better, be my guest.

                              I've had debates like this for about 15 to 17 years now, and no one has ever proved anything to me, or anyone else. You can't prove something that is faith based. But give it a shot if you want to.

                              You already tried with the 300 Jesus prophecy, and discounted the contents of the article I posted that cleared up some of the claims made by believers. If you read the article, there were a few examples, but i guess you don't want to believe those either. Nothing will convince you, and I said from the beginning that I'm not here to convert or convince anybody. Just putting my 2 cents in...that's all.

                               

                              uh no.  the game isn't "over" just because you don't like what's written in history,  and your way of dealing with something you don't like is to disingenuienly try and dismiss it, in hopes that it will go away,  so that you won't have to.  nope. 

                              intellectual integrity in a debate means you deal with the data placed before you,  whether or not you are antagonistic toward it, or not.

                              you may not like "bible quotes",  but call them whatever you think reduces that portion of HISTORY into the archives of hogwash.  truth is joker,  if you are going to call yourself a person OF "intellectual integrity",  you are going to have to face the fact that the bible is a RECORDED document of history.  you cannot debate that fact.  been around what,  several thousand years in written form.  call it fables.  call it fairly tales, i don't care.  but what you can't ever say is that it "isn't" a pre-recorded historical document in written form, dating back HUNDREDS of years.  hundreds of years BEFORE Christ was ever born.

                              if it had been written 20 years ago,  you would still deny it's "historical recordation", because your heart won't allow you to accept the fact that no matter what you think about it, it's an historical document, and guess what?   you may refute "intent" of said article,  but you cannot refute the content.  not even if you were blind,  cuz it's written in braille too :)

                              so no,  you can play the deflection "i don't wanna look at it game" with others,  but not with me.  integrity in the debate is key to finding out the truth about anything, and that's what i do.  WE facillitate integrity until we see where it ends up.

                              so, back to the aspects of prophecy that man cannot manipulate, or "self fulfill", etc.

                              (1)  the Messiah was prophecied to be born in an EXACT location,  at an exact time in history.  that is IMPOSSIBLE to manufacture.  the bible was even specific which sector of bethlehem He was to be born, because there were TWO.  check those two off as fulfilled...

                              (2) the prophet accurately predicted hundreds of years before it's occurance,  that a certain star, one that astronomists (the 3 wise men) would track and recognize, would appear at a certain geographical location WHEN the Messiah was born.  it would denote His arrival AND location.  check that off as fulfilled, and impossible by man to manipulate.

                              (3) let's say mary & joseph entered into a co-conspiracy to sell the notion that their baby was the messiah.  shoot,  people join cults everyday and hand their mush minds over to all kinds of wacky propositions.   trouble is,  mary & joseph would have to not only "co-conspire" for 33 years,  they would have showed up in bethelehem and had that baby at the EXACT SAME TIME the bible predicted,  in order to even start that cult with validity.  nope.  you can't manipulate the timing of a birth, maybe it's location, but certianly not a star position over a city where it has NEVER aligned itsellf before.

                              can't manipulate that, joker.

                              how many more examples do you think it would take for you to get the idea i am conveying, that certain aspects of prophecy that were PRE-WRITTEN in history could NOT be manipulated, because i can always go on.  and on. and on.

                              there are a TON more that contain those aspects.....the impossible by man to manipulate

                              take the events surrounding Christ death, and compare that to the PRE-RECORDED history that was intensely descriptive on how Christ would die,  including aspects of his torture pre-crucifixion.   one thing the richard dawkin's of the world (and you) cannot ever rectify is the human element - the one that's ANTAGONISTIC toward the claims, and the future of Christ.

                              the last thing someone who is antagonistic toward a figure like Christ,  so that there isn't ANY possibility of helping to further the message/cause of Christ, is TO facillitate anything that would connotate Christ fulfilling the scriptures IN His death.

                              those guys were supportive cast members to say the least.  they tortured Christ down to the "T" of what pre-recorded history said they would.   if anything,  that's reverse manipulation that backfired, and PROVED Gods word to be true.

                              i can serve up more examples.  more that no one can manipulate.  more that  you cannot explain away,  because they were facilitated by people who were AGAINST it all in the 1st place.

                              one thing you should do,  is you should deny publically on this forum (since you started this debate),  that the bible isn't pre-recorded history.

                              are you willing to say that, voter?

                               oh, and if you need me to, i can post the prophecy made "before", and the fulfilled "after" if you so desire 

                              visionistaythecourseandmakenoexcusesdude

                                          "i am .........."meant to"       

                              P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                                       until further notice,  it's  france everyday

                                 
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