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Praying?

Topic closed. 421 replies. Last post 6 years ago by visiondude.

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visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
light on my feet
United States
Member #356
May 20, 2002
2744 Posts
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Posted: June 22, 2010, 12:12 am - IP Logged

First of all, the burden of proof is not on my shoulders. Second, the reason I posted that article was because Vision dude asked me to google about the 300 prophecies of Jesus. So get your story straight before you write.

What I've learned over the years was from investigation I've done,  not to echo what I've learned, but read it from the pros, who were a little more articulate than I was. I didn't need google or any other source when I learned about common sense regarding the inconsistencies in the Bible and religion in general. Only after that point, did I truly investigate. Surely I sometimes repeat what I've learned....so what? If that's your biggest defense.....I have nothing to worry about....

I was trying to be cordial when I first decided to post in this thread because I respect Todd's site. But if the hostility increases, I can turn it up a notch too.

I don't need to prove anything to anybody. You folks can keep believing in your fairytales for all I care.

 You never specifically address the points I bring up because you can't answer them. Your best effort is to keep bringing up what I can do for the 20,000 kids. You simply don't get the big picture....

Take the blinders off. You'll be able to have better peripheral vision.

ummm yes it is. 

the burden of proof that it "ain't" falls directly on your shoulders,  because you were the one that asked the antagonistic challenging questions TO the thread, joker.   if you are unwilling to finish something you instigate,  that's fine.  it merely demonstrates lack of a defensible position on your part.  but if on the other hand you think you can continue to cruise around places like this that contain discussion of a spiritual nature, and you ALWAYS make crack comments about it, mocking it even, how can you think you can ride off into the refusal sunset, and blame that on "hostility"?  that's a cop out.

truth is,  you don't want to confront the history question head on, because that might actually lead somewhere.  a destination that for now,  you are unwilling to travel to.

no one is anywhere near hostile territory joker. 

and yet you are crying foul so you can attempt to escape your unwillingness to stay in a challenge YOU instigated. 

you more than anyone on this entire board talks about 'god'.   you post anti-god propoganda in your blogs all the time.  no one else really even talks about God in their blogs on a regular basis.  you do.  whoever does on the forums,  you are usually pretty quick to add your .03     that's cool.  but cool means you finish as well.

the burden of proof becomes equal - once you state it "isn't".  you continually maintain "it isn't"

i can't guarantee people stay in it till it's logical end.  but one things for sure, i don't give up, and i don't make up excuses so i "don't have to".   the very last thing i wanna be accused of,  commensurate with what I believe,  is that i can't defend it.

you can take me for a ride all up and down the ladder of "religious challenge".  that's good by me.  i will stay in it.

truth is, i knew you would pretty much cut-and-run from your own challenge, once i made the point that what your calling is "unprovable",  is actually provable written history.  that's something no man can deny. 

 once the debate arrives at that destination, one of two things happens.....(1) cut and run, (2) they resort to lying that it "isn't" written history

that isn't "hostile', because i don't need to play the bully game.  you are being confronted by someone who can answer you, instead of intimidating most you meet with those curveball / psuedo "hard questions" you throw at people, and ow you don't like it.   that's really the truth of what's taking place in here

 all i have to do is add aggregate to the cement, then sit back and watch it harden.  that's intellectual engineering 101

or,  you could stay in the game,  and answer the question if the bible is pre-recorded written history

            "i am .........."meant to"       

P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

         until further notice,  it's  france everyday

    visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
    light on my feet
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    Member #356
    May 20, 2002
    2744 Posts
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    Posted: June 22, 2010, 12:26 am - IP Logged

    and remember what i said voter,  that added validity to BOTH sides of the debate,  and offered you EQUAL footing in the integrity dept, that it doesn't matter after the historical fact is 'rejected' (or established), if you still consider the document(s) to contain nothing more than "fairy tales",  you still in the world of an integrity driven debate must answer that challenge - as to whether or not i am right about the bible being "pre-recorded history".

    pre-recorded history prior to Christ, and after His life as well.

    failure to answer that simple challenge on your part cements  the fact your not interested in ANY truth "about God" to begin with.

                "i am .........."meant to"       

    P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

             until further notice,  it's  france everyday


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      Member #81843
      October 31, 2009
      856 Posts
      Offline
      Posted: June 22, 2010, 2:56 am - IP Logged

      hey blindi-knocks,

       

      Here are some answers to your questions. I have no desire to further entertain your ego.

      God does not ask you to give what you believed for and need. If people are stupid enough to give everything they have without trusting in God to be their sufficiency in all things, then they will have given what they needed. Why? A: Due to their unbelief in the truth and believing some doctrine of ‘give it all’.

      Few have the trust in God to live hand to mouth. There is no reason to. God meets needs and abundance in all aspects of life spring forth. That does not mean being filthy rich. To give what you need is just plain stupid and that includes your time as with any resource you have to give. “Give until it hurts” is wrong teaching.

      Cult teachings? You cannot even read the book. Here is an example:

      In Matthew 26:63 Jesus was being questioned if he said he was the Son of God. SON OF GOD, NOT GOD. You do not see and you do not hear that truth in black and white, yet you maintain that scripture says he was admitting to having said he was God. Who’s the blasphemer?

      His answer was in question of him saying he was the Son of God: (I paraphrased it), “you got that right dude!” He was affirming the charge against him, answering the question. What kind of devilish cult would say he was being questioned on the matter of him saying he was GOD? You are involved in a cult that throws the book out and teaches fables.

      "just a smidgen of mis-information about that subject matter,  and you end up with 1,000's of religions/opinions"

      Yes and most of the professing Christian denominations teach Jesus Christ is God. They are all wrong on that smidgen of misinformation. You are raised in it and confirmed in it and anything that reveals the error is uncomfortable to the thinking process. And that includes the book. With no understanding of what is written in the book, any old lie can be sold as truth. Your whole upset on prosperity -like it is an ungodly thing is founded on lies you were taught. The hypocrisy and leaking cisterns has you in search for a reason. You look everywhere but the book. Your yardstick for truth is based on tradition, not truth. You teach lies for truth. You are trying to make reason from lies.

      ummmm DD,  God doesn't share His glory OR His power with another,  and that fact even standing alone singularly solidifies the Godhood - one person, manifested in 3 forms/personalities OF that "person".  “

      Wrong wrong wrong! Christ in you.

      Romans 8:30
      Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
      Romans 8:29-31 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

      Colossians 1:26-28 (King James Version)

        26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

        27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

        28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

      Galatians 1:24
      And they glorified God in me.
      Galatians 1:23-24 (in Context) Galatians 1 (Whole Chapter)

      2 Thessalonians 1:12
      That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
      2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 1 (Whole Chapter)

      Hebrews 5:5
      So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
      Hebrews 5:4-6 (in Context) Hebrews 5 (Whole Chapter)

       

       

      Now Let’s look at the Worship BS you claim is proof J.C. is God. Here is the verse you use:

      ......"Matthew 14:33
      Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

         

      No article ‘the‘ in the text before Son of God . Read it as God’s Son.

      Worship in that verse is the Greek word proskun: to kiss (the hand) toward.

      Let’s look at the other Greek words translated to English ‘Worship‘ or a variant of ‘worship’ from Hebrew and Greek. Matt 14:33 “worshipped” (proskun) is,…..

      Not segad (Heb): To bow down. Do obedience

      Not atsab (Heb): To make an idol

      Not abad (Heb): To do, serve

      Not shachah (Heb): To bow self down

      Not doxa (Gr.): Glory, esteem

      Not eusebeo (Gr.): To be reverential, pious

      Not therapeuo (Gr): To serve, cure, heal

      Not threskeia (Gr.): Religious observance

      Not proskunetes (Gr.): A worshipper

      Not sebazo (Gr): To venerate, reckon venerable

      Not sebomai (Gr.): to venerate

      Not sebasma (Gr.): An object of veneration

      AND NOT theosebes (Gr.): One who venerates God; John 9:31

      They did not worship Jesus Christ as God and your proof that he is God in that verse falls to pieces in light of the words used to communicate a record. Yes they worshiped him, but not with theosebes worship.

       

      “DD,  only God can forgive sins,  and Jesus Christ has that power. a power ONLY attributable to God”

      Your cult teaches lies.

      2 Corinthians 2:7
      So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
      2 Corinthians 2:6-8 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)

      1.  2 Corinthians 2:10
      To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
      2 Corinthians 2:9-11 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)

      2.  2 Corinthians 12:13
      For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
      2 Corinthians 12:12-14 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 12 (Whole Chapter)

      3.  Ephesians 1:7

      Ephesians 4:32
      And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
      Ephesians 4:31-32 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter)

      James 5:16
      Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
      James 5:15-17 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)

      Forgiveness heals.

      1.  James 5:19
      Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
      James 5:18-20 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)

      2.  James 5:20
      Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
      James 5:19-20 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)

       

       

      So there you have it. What you say is in contradiction to what is written in the book. Jesus Christ said of the spiritual leaders of the Jews, that they were born of the seed of the serpent. So you are born body and soul like Adam died. You can have the third component, holy spirit since Pentecost. But before Pentecost there was another father’s seed one could get. What’s in your jug? Who’s your daddy? Who's seed did you get to make you complete?

       

      John 8:40-42 (King James Version)

        40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

        41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

        42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

       

       

      Jesus Christ is not God

      John 8:54
      Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
      John 8:53-55 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)

      John 15:1
      I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
      John 15:1-3 (in Context) John 15 (Whole Chapter)

      John 20:17
      Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
      John 20:16-18 (in Context) John 20 (Whole Chapter)

      Kind of that old ‘one’ God theme taught by J.C.

      Acts 5:30
      The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
      Acts 5:29-31 (in Context) Acts 5 (Whole Chapter)

       

       

      Want answer to prayers if you pray?

      What’s in your jug?

      I really do not want to waste any more time on someone who is convinced that prosperity is something to shunn, as if it is not in the bible and not available as a promise of God. No more pearls cast from me. If prosperity and answered prayer is off limits according to a god, I would get a new GOD.

      DD

        Perfecttiming2's avatar - redcross

        United States
        Member #65961
        October 11, 2008
        162 Posts
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        Posted: June 22, 2010, 3:56 am - IP Logged

        John 3:12  I have spoken to you about Earthly things , and you do not Believe. How can you Possible believe if I tell you about Heavenly things!!!

        1 Corinthians 13:12

        Now we see things Imperfectly, like Puzzling reflections in a mirror; but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All That I know now is partial and Incomplete, but Then I will know everything completely just as GOD now knows me completely.

        Please Don't argue. The day will come when all will be revealed, Just Pray that you will be in right standing with ALMIGHTY GOD on that day. For on that day, we will not run out of time, but out of all chances, to get things right with THE ALMIGHTY GOD!!!

        Great post Jrosina!

        Also, for anyone interested.....

        If you have a mind that appeals to the legal side of things you should read Lee Strobel's book.

        I had the opportunity to meet Mr. Strobel earlier this year.  This man has his Master's Degree in Law from Yale and was an award-winning editor for the Chicago Tribune for investigative journalism. 

        He was also an athiest.

        He came to accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior by doing what I did........he searched it out for himself.

        His book "A Case For Christ" was a New York Times Best Seller and is an amazing account of one man's journey to Truth.....

         

        If you are more of the intellectual type:

        "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis has help so many people understand the Christian faith that it would take more effort not to believe than it would to believe.

         

        If you are more of the "show me" type:

        "Blood Convenant" written by Michael Franzese is the autobiography of a former Mafia Underboss for the Colombo crime family in New York, who walked away from the Mob after he accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.  I got to meet him at my church when he spoke there and his testimony will blow you away (no pun intended).

        I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior over 26 years ago after spending years of comparing other beliefs (of my family members and friends)....to the Bible.

        Becoming a Born-again Christian  has been the most amazing, fulfilling and single most important act that I have ever done.  I still have faults and shortcomings....but knowing that I am completely forgiven, fully loved and accepted by the God of all creation is exhilarating and often times overwhelming yet it always centers me in a peace that truly goes beyond all understanding....

        Reading His word, trusting in Him, Praying to Him on all things, being in fellowship with Him and in accountability changes you and give you security and peace that the world cannot understand.

         

        I have been reading some of the posting on here............posting in response to one simple question.....

        and some of the answers have been heartbreaking........

        If the bible is too much for you to digest.......then give yourself another chance, take a look at it through the eyes of

        a fomer atheist (Lee Stroble)

        a scholar (C. S. Lewis)

        a reknown mobster (Michael Franzese)

        All these men did the research, asked the questions and ended up surrendering all to the One whose love has the ability to transform............

        a heart

        a mind

        a soul

        a life

        in a way no one ever could.

        Jesus Christ is real.  He is all that He says He is........and if you give Him a chance, He will make Himself real to you.

          visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
          light on my feet
          United States
          Member #356
          May 20, 2002
          2744 Posts
          Offline
          Posted: June 22, 2010, 4:53 am - IP Logged

          hey blindi-knocks,

           

          Here are some answers to your questions. I have no desire to further entertain your ego.

          God does not ask you to give what you believed for and need. If people are stupid enough to give everything they have without trusting in God to be their sufficiency in all things, then they will have given what they needed. Why? A: Due to their unbelief in the truth and believing some doctrine of ‘give it all’.

          Few have the trust in God to live hand to mouth. There is no reason to. God meets needs and abundance in all aspects of life spring forth. That does not mean being filthy rich. To give what you need is just plain stupid and that includes your time as with any resource you have to give. “Give until it hurts” is wrong teaching.

          Cult teachings? You cannot even read the book. Here is an example:

          In Matthew 26:63 Jesus was being questioned if he said he was the Son of God. SON OF GOD, NOT GOD. You do not see and you do not hear that truth in black and white, yet you maintain that scripture says he was admitting to having said he was God. Who’s the blasphemer?

          His answer was in question of him saying he was the Son of God: (I paraphrased it), “you got that right dude!” He was affirming the charge against him, answering the question. What kind of devilish cult would say he was being questioned on the matter of him saying he was GOD? You are involved in a cult that throws the book out and teaches fables.

          "just a smidgen of mis-information about that subject matter,  and you end up with 1,000's of religions/opinions"

          Yes and most of the professing Christian denominations teach Jesus Christ is God. They are all wrong on that smidgen of misinformation. You are raised in it and confirmed in it and anything that reveals the error is uncomfortable to the thinking process. And that includes the book. With no understanding of what is written in the book, any old lie can be sold as truth. Your whole upset on prosperity -like it is an ungodly thing is founded on lies you were taught. The hypocrisy and leaking cisterns has you in search for a reason. You look everywhere but the book. Your yardstick for truth is based on tradition, not truth. You teach lies for truth. You are trying to make reason from lies.

          ummmm DD,  God doesn't share His glory OR His power with another,  and that fact even standing alone singularly solidifies the Godhood - one person, manifested in 3 forms/personalities OF that "person".  “

          Wrong wrong wrong! Christ in you.

          Romans 8:30
          Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
          Romans 8:29-31 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

          Colossians 1:26-28 (King James Version)

            26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

            27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

            28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

          Galatians 1:24
          And they glorified God in me.
          Galatians 1:23-24 (in Context) Galatians 1 (Whole Chapter)

          2 Thessalonians 1:12
          That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
          2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (in Context) 2 Thessalonians 1 (Whole Chapter)

          Hebrews 5:5
          So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
          Hebrews 5:4-6 (in Context) Hebrews 5 (Whole Chapter)

           

           

          Now Let’s look at the Worship BS you claim is proof J.C. is God. Here is the verse you use:

          ......"Matthew 14:33
          Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

             

          No article ‘the‘ in the text before Son of God . Read it as God’s Son.

          Worship in that verse is the Greek word proskun: to kiss (the hand) toward.

          Let’s look at the other Greek words translated to English ‘Worship‘ or a variant of ‘worship’ from Hebrew and Greek. Matt 14:33 “worshipped” (proskun) is,…..

          Not segad (Heb): To bow down. Do obedience

          Not atsab (Heb): To make an idol

          Not abad (Heb): To do, serve

          Not shachah (Heb): To bow self down

          Not doxa (Gr.): Glory, esteem

          Not eusebeo (Gr.): To be reverential, pious

          Not therapeuo (Gr): To serve, cure, heal

          Not threskeia (Gr.): Religious observance

          Not proskunetes (Gr.): A worshipper

          Not sebazo (Gr): To venerate, reckon venerable

          Not sebomai (Gr.): to venerate

          Not sebasma (Gr.): An object of veneration

          AND NOT theosebes (Gr.): One who venerates God; John 9:31

          They did not worship Jesus Christ as God and your proof that he is God in that verse falls to pieces in light of the words used to communicate a record. Yes they worshiped him, but not with theosebes worship.

           

          “DD,  only God can forgive sins,  and Jesus Christ has that power. a power ONLY attributable to God”

          Your cult teaches lies.

          2 Corinthians 2:7
          So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
          2 Corinthians 2:6-8 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)

          1.  2 Corinthians 2:10
          To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
          2 Corinthians 2:9-11 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 2 (Whole Chapter)

          2.  2 Corinthians 12:13
          For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
          2 Corinthians 12:12-14 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 12 (Whole Chapter)

          3.  Ephesians 1:7

          Ephesians 4:32
          And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
          Ephesians 4:31-32 (in Context) Ephesians 4 (Whole Chapter)

          James 5:16
          Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much
          James 5:15-17 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)

          Forgiveness heals.

          1.  James 5:19
          Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
          James 5:18-20 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)

          2.  James 5:20
          Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
          James 5:19-20 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter)

           

           

          So there you have it. What you say is in contradiction to what is written in the book. Jesus Christ said of the spiritual leaders of the Jews, that they were born of the seed of the serpent. So you are born body and soul like Adam died. You can have the third component, holy spirit since Pentecost. But before Pentecost there was another father’s seed one could get. What’s in your jug? Who’s your daddy? Who's seed did you get to make you complete?

           

          John 8:40-42 (King James Version)

            40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

            41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

            42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

           

           

          Jesus Christ is not God

          John 8:54
          Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
          John 8:53-55 (in Context) John 8 (Whole Chapter)

          John 15:1
          I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
          John 15:1-3 (in Context) John 15 (Whole Chapter)

          John 20:17
          Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
          John 20:16-18 (in Context) John 20 (Whole Chapter)

          Kind of that old ‘one’ God theme taught by J.C.

          Acts 5:30
          The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
          Acts 5:29-31 (in Context) Acts 5 (Whole Chapter)

           

           

          Want answer to prayers if you pray?

          What’s in your jug?

          I really do not want to waste any more time on someone who is convinced that prosperity is something to shunn, as if it is not in the bible and not available as a promise of God. No more pearls cast from me. If prosperity and answered prayer is off limits according to a god, I would get a new GOD.

          DD

          i have ZERO biblical problems with God "prospering" anyone,  if He so chooses.  the problem i have is when people like you build a 'scriptural case' for turning God into your personal concierge,  by selling it that "it's you're biblical right".  thats a lie.

          if that teaching was remotely true, it's occuring phenomenom wouldn't occur in just ONE basic geographic location in the world.   it's a western teaching,  taught by preachers who prey upon the weak and desperate, who KNOW there is wealth to be extracted on a revolving door / ongoing basis.

          you NEVER see your dreaded position taught in 3rd world countries,  because the means can't match the ends.   

          ************************************************************************************************

          you said, and i copy and paste YOUR quote;  "If prosperity and answered prayer is off limits according to a god, I would get a new GOD".

          i know.  that's EAXCTLY my point, and EXACTLY what you have done, and now you are selling it to others.....the premise that God may "not" want to "prosper you" materially.  you zoned in on the material aspect of the prosperity angle in order to sidestep it's significance IN the properity doctrine teaching,  but the MATERIAL aspect of the prosperity teachiing IS the first and foremost part of it.  for you to attempt to sweep that truth aside, it demonstrates your disingenuous position.

          yes,  there are aspects of prosperity that we do have coming to us as believers per Gods promises, including answers to prayers (sometimes a "no" IS an answer). a sound mind.  eventual victory over our enemies as God defends against them on our behalf.  relationships, provided we operate within relational guidelines.  a whole gaggle of microcasm circumstances where IF we put God first, God will reward us for doing so. 

          but NEVER does Gods word (collectively) EVER make the claim that everyone ......so long as they have "enough faith".....will receive financial trampolines,  nor is EVERY person promised physical healing.  those 2 "front-and-center" prosperity teaching are nothing more that hoover vaccuum cleaners on a mans bank account.

          i stated it correctly,  that there are TONS, literally TONS of people that have compounded over time via elongated hardships who plead with God based on a u-haul of "faith",  and for reasons only God knows,  it's a "no".

          if that modern machination snake oil you are selling actually worked,  your fellow constituents, the ones that own 8 bentleys,  and wear those rediculous suits that don't even match thier eyes......those guys are the "professionals" of your trade, even those guys can't empty hospitals. 

          you know where the real blight on the name of Christ comes from?   those guys on 20/20 (and thier kind) who keep exposing that scam for what it ISN'T.   they show up with pen in hand, and camera on the shoulder,  and POLITELY ASK, "hey,  show us your proof that God heals".   and guess what?  ZIP.  NONE.   why?  not because God doesn't still heal people, because He obviously still does......but because it's a SCAM. 

          what?  God is shy all of a sudden.  God gets stage fright because of the cameras?   ahhhh nope.   those guys can't bring forth squat, because God isn't up to corroberating their little scam. 

          these guys heal people all around the room, so the ministies claim (until you ask them for it), but REFUSE to make a trip to the hospital,  even to do a drive by.   that's a waste of talent.

          an interesting revealing fact about prosperity "healers",  is that they can only "do it" in thier own buildings,  and only while the cameras are on with that ever accessible 800 number.   nope, can't make house calls.   can't perform thier scam at starbucks.  can't even do it when the situation calls for it when they come upon a traffiic accident.  talk about opportunity.  gheesh

          look,  despite my rediculous WAY over the top dramatics,  the evidence of how this all goes down, vs a claim by a select group, vs actual hard and ambivalent observance statistics,  vs geography,  vs COLLECTIVE biblical principles (that a "no" is just as important as a yes, should God decide),  vs the odds of people who beg with a BOATLOAD of faith (but still get a "no"), vs a BOATLOAD of people who leave the faith over a "no" answer......only leads to one place.......false teaching oblivion.

          you said it, i didn't.  you stated it was because of "unbelief" that people weren't / aren't healed,  and thats a heinous biblical lie.

          i would be the FIRST in line to tell people to open up your life to ALL the possibilities God has, or could have for you.  i would also be the FIRST to caution them, that if your life is out of line with His standards,  you will possibly eliminate yourself FROM God blessing you,  with what He has determined IS commensurate with His parameters for your life.

          His parameters.  not the parameters you WANT your life to be in your fantasy head movies, and like you, you "change gods" in order to accomplish that possibility (or at minimum, the definition of HOW God deals out the cards).

          ummm. i like that God.  He will give me ALL that heart thinks/desires, because i am His.   ahhhh no. 

          He sure could, and actually does with some people,  but it ISN'T a biblical right on either the health OR material end of it.

          man, you have no idea how how wish everyone i encounter would experience everything God desires to extract out of thier life,  and how my heart breaks when i keep seeing people making decisions to operate outside of Gods standards/laws.  but NEVER ONCE will i ever sell God as someones personal concierge,  cuz that teaching puts me square on the hook of responsibility IF God chooses not to,  when they blame GOD for not doing so, and go sideways on God for NOT "doing so".

          cut the semantics DD.   you know you perpetuHATE a nasty unattainable message based on mans greed.

          odds are,  there are other people in your personal family tree that have either health issues,  and yet follow Christ "but aren't healed",  or have died at an early age because OF health related issues.   

          really,  your greatest need is humility.  now THAT would be a miraculous healing (and one God can certainly accomplish, even given your "unbelief" about your ever growing need of it)

          *************************************************************************************

          tomorrow i will tackle your refusal to address how Christ is worshipped, and the other falsehoods you attempted about your claim that Christ "isn't" God.

          i DO appreciate you staying (somewhat) in the fray. 

          i do not respect a man who can't finish what THEY instigate.  we will see how long you last

          VISIONmyeyesarefinebutmyheartsevenclearerDUDE

                      "i am .........."meant to"       

          P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                   until further notice,  it's  france everyday

            visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
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            Posted: June 22, 2010, 5:22 am - IP Logged

            and DD, because i play fair, i am more than willing to demonstrate how the "no" in an answer,  is just as valid and important in a relationship with God, and that a "no" is oftentimes FAR more rewarding then your lie about it's origin being from "unbelief".

            does God say "yes" on many different levels......absoulutely.    sometimes in dramatic stunning fashion.

            maybe i should spill my life story, and how a man that literally believes that God can do anything He wants, anytime He wants, but only IF He wants......could live a much more rewarding life because the MAJORITY of Gods answers were "no" concerning immediate (and sometimes longterm) comfort levels, and yet i STILL choose everyday to trust that what God Has for my life THAT DAY, is what He desires my life to add up to.  for HIS purpose.  not for mine.   because i FULLY trust His authority and decision making over my life,  knowing full well He could change it in either direction at His whim

            that's another thing  i can't stand about the false hope prosperity doctrine.  it robs God of His ability to be God.  it seeks to diminish his soveringty over His creation.

            turns God from a 6 course extracted out over time dinner,  into a taco bell drive thru at 55mph.  who even has the skill to throw a taco into the window should i drive by at 55mph?   certainly not many.  maybe those mythbusters dudes.   (hey, it's just an anology comparison)

            since God says alot of "no's" to alot of things in life,  i will actually go on record to say that "no's" often yield MORE "fruit" than a yes.

            anyone wanna chime in on that fact?

                        "i am .........."meant to"       

            P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                     until further notice,  it's  france everyday


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              Posted: June 22, 2010, 6:18 am - IP Logged

              "anyone wanna chime in on that fact?"

              Yes.

              You are insane and your god sucks.

              DD

                jarasan's avatar - new patrick.gif
                Harbinger
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                Posted: June 22, 2010, 8:49 am - IP Logged

                I can't possibly reason with folks who don't use reasoning as a basis to make decisions when it comes to religion. It's impossible to do.

                I know I said in earlier posts that I was done, but this time I'm really done.

                I'll just sit back and watch the parade of delusional posts.

                For me to debate a creationist, is like a Geologist debating  a flat Earth believer. It just won't work.

                I'm gonna stock up on some popcorn.

                 

                See he can't do it,  he plain can't do it, totally changes the topic.  Please explain what is unreasonble or delusional about my statement of us dying, and getting our answer.  Is it the dying part that is unreasoned,  or is it delusional thinking that we'll get an answer?

                Your geologist/flat earth analogy is a another pathetic dig at demeaning the people on this thread.   You are no geologist,  you are a wanna-be, unauthenticated "Oh, I hate to break it to you but you don't know what you are talking about,  I know everything person." 

                  visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
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                  Posted: June 22, 2010, 2:34 pm - IP Logged

                  "anyone wanna chime in on that fact?"

                  Yes.

                  You are insane and your god sucks.

                  DD

                  your game was already over waaaaaay before,  the first time you ever stated that Jesus Christ...... "wasn't"  God.

                  but to add insult to your already pre existing injurious position,  your above statement proves i am the sane one.  at least between the two us anyway.

                  gotta go to work, so checking in.  back later for a more comphrehensive defense of your assasination of what "Son of God" really means.   in the meantime,  you can attempt to explain this little proof teaser in revelation, where God is speaking first, and then Jesus Christ claims the exact same position of authority over man (being God), by using the EXACT SAME definition of Himself.

                  one God.  three persons

                  revelation 21; verse 6  (God the father speaking)......."I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End".   

                  revelation 22; verse 13 (Jesus Christ speaking)  ......"I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,  the First and the Last".

                  i didn't even catch that part.  Jesus not only ascibes Himself to be God, by using the SAME phraseology of position that ONLY God holds,  He goes one step farther and adds "The first and the Last". 

                  DD,  get out of that dreaded cult you are in before your soul is lost.

                  not only did Christ receive worship,  ALL judgement comes from Him.  read the last books in revelation, and they talk about Jesus Christ being the one that deals out the judgements upon the earth, toward unbelieving man. 

                  He wasn't "just a man",  because ONLY God meets out judgement TO man.

                  maybe you can explain your cults game-of-twister version of who Jesus was.  just a man?

                  i will be back later (unlucky for you, because you can't intimidate me, and that's your angle)

                  VISIONallamanhastodoisaddsanstheemotionalpartDUDE

                              "i am .........."meant to"       

                  P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                           until further notice,  it's  france everyday

                    RL-RANDOMLOGIC's avatar - usafce

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                    Posted: June 22, 2010, 3:39 pm - IP Logged

                    All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
                    And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
                    For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

                    Working on my Ph.D.  "University of hard Knocks"

                    I will consider the opinion that my winnings are a product of chance if you are willing to consider

                    they are not.  Many great discoveries come while searching for something else

                    USAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Base_Engineer_Emergency_Force

                      US Flag Trump / 2016 & 2020  

                      visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
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                      Posted: June 22, 2010, 8:20 pm - IP Logged

                      DD,  just stopping by in between work and a baseball game to see if you had checked in.

                      i could pull a DD tactic, and flood my pages with enough info to make it appear overwhelming,  hoping i can smother my "opponent",  hoping i can frustrate them with just enough "misinformation", but i won't.  homie don't play that tune. 

                       i am already long winded enough, and wish i possessed the ability to make my deep points without going into such great detail.  being concise, and leaving NOTHING out intellectually, and not just to "chance",  now that's my angle. 

                      cover it all, then let the pieces fall where they may. 

                      that being said,  i thought of a way to streamline your accusation that "Son of God" means that Jesus Christ wasn't God (according to you),  by asking you to comment on the methodology of His birth,  and why specifically He was "born of a virgin",  and did not have an earthly bioLOGICAL father?

                      everything about the "Son of God" referral hangs on the virgin birth. 

                      care to comment on that?

                      make sure you include your comment on the revelation record that shows Christ to be God, as well.

                      icertainlydontcomeclosetoknowingeverythingaboutGodbutwhatidoknowtobetruegrantsmetwentytwentyVISION(andiamjustanordinaryDUDE)

                        visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
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                        Posted: June 22, 2010, 8:38 pm - IP Logged

                        one thing i WOULD like to see,  besides this seemingly (but oftentimes necessary) on and on debate,  is more peoples opinions about prayer.

                        specifically like the beginning of the this threads intent.......

                        how it relates to the lottery,  and do you think "prayer" is going to help you win???

                        personally, i don't. 

                        not in the "it will help me win' category,  but more in the vein of "am i supposed to, or am i wasting my time persuing it"?

                        that is where the distinct advantage of actually KNOWING God (thru a personal relationship with a living God),  versus the guessing game of "religion", because with religion as your earpiece,  all you are going to "hear" are the edicts of that religion,  that men have included in the what's "acceptable", or what's to be "rejected" in thier manufactured hit parade of "standards".

                          a relationship with God skips right over the top of that confusion,  like a flat shiny rock on a calm lake in a rock skipping competition.  jagged rock with no flat surfaces,  one (maybe 2) skippies.   flat rock made for skipping,  you can knock your buddies canoe over,  clear across the lake.   ok,  that was a bit lame,  but you get the idea.

                        go to God directly.   none of this backing out of your driveway, driving around the block 6 times, and parking in your neighbors driveway, just to visit your neighbor. 

                        you CAN know (but only IF........you really want to)

                                    "i am .........."meant to"       

                        P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                                 until further notice,  it's  france everyday

                          visiondude's avatar - eye3logo
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                          Posted: June 23, 2010, 3:05 am - IP Logged

                          so i check back in, and nothing?    only "crickets"?

                           joker copped out publically, and left the building for easier hunting grounds.  he prefers that shooting fish in a barrel enviornment,  where he can mess with people who can't answer him. 

                          and DD threatened to,  so hopefully DD will stay and finish the exchange he so arrogantly started.

                          the 2 instigators can't hang all of a sudden,  and answer challenges THEY create?

                          i am not how you say.....taken by surprise by this.   it happens when you encounter a person who can hang with people like them.

                          i will still be waiting,  because my life isn't going to be tainted with excuses,  or that dreaded moniker "quitter".

                          chances are,  both of them will "reappear" in another thread,  or blog.

                          look, i am not trying to "win the battle".  that's not my push.  trade ideas and opinions,  and let that info fall where it may.

                          though always poised to stay in it till the end, i am NOT about the "win/lose" aspect of these exchanges.  what i AM about, is if you challenge a position i have.....that's great.  bring it.  but don't start something you are unwilling to finish.

                          and certainly don't bring your push-your-chest-out "A" game, and expect me to not get narrow and confrontive on YOUR position.   because you create the stage where i must.

                          that ain't my fault.  it's yours...

                          VISION (not vi-SHUN)

                                      "i am .........."meant to"       

                          P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                                   until further notice,  it's  france everyday


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                            Posted: June 23, 2010, 4:23 am - IP Logged

                            "everything about the "Son of God" referral hangs on the virgin birth. 

                            care to comment on that? "

                            We know from Genesis what God created. That He rested from His work when it was completed. It is significant to observe what God has created. The great fish Jonah was in was not created. It was prepared. Much like you or I would go to the kitchen and prepare something from what is available. God’s resources are much greater. God prepared a great fish from what was on hand, genetically so to speak.

                            The adversary also has had the means in the past to make genetic preparations. The thing he coveted the most was the creation and he was quite adept in articulating it. It is no wonder why he wanted to get dominion because he used to have a part in the creation, but he was not a creator. He was a handy man so to speak, who was very capable in knowledge and skill to genetically modify life as well as animate it. It is not outside of God’s range of ability and ethic to also take what has been created to put to use for good. There appears to be more records of the adversary’s acts to genetically modify life as opposed to God’s.  Science is man’s attempt to understand and apply what God has created.

                            God’s observation was that His work was good. When He rested, it was done. No need was not met. Any new creation that God would do should be of great significance. The great fish was not created but prepared. Genetically prepared. No rules were broken and this fish was a one-time event. God simply did a little genetic work to prepare a fish for Jonah. Whatever He used in the preparation was available. The miracle of the fish is the genetic preparation. If the adversary can make giants, disease and weeds, surely God can make a fish. It is interesting to note the biggest thing God created among the animals was a whale. Not some scary dinosaur. God was done in a few days as opposed to the eons of life forms scientists dig up. God was making a mission statement: He does it right the first time and gets the job done to the point that it does not need any maintenance. God notes that the adversary was a murderer from the beginning.

                            Jonah’s great fish was not a whale. Whales had been created and there was no need to make announcement of a preparation if a whale could do the job. What God used in the miracle of preparation is unknown. It is likely He used aquatic genetics since that is what He said He did. Is it really too much to think the Creator can have the ability to use what is available to do good, even when the dominion of the world belongs to another?  I think God is bigger than the creation. Did God violate terms of dominion? Not really. The great fish was under the terms of dominion and subject to the one who has dominion. It just wasn’t your normal fish.  Jonah was a target. Somehow Jonah lived through the event of being in the fish’s belly. Looks like Jonah did not die and that is part of the purpose of the fish. God must have had a good laugh. Jonah had a change of heart and commitment. The fish had enough of it after three days and nights and threw him up on dry land. The fish had served its purpose. God's genetic skills had saved Jonah when the adversary thought he had finally defeated and killed him.

                            What we need, is to closely look any instance where God created something. There is the New Creation available today. It is quite significant to think about when you consider God’s role in creating things. Jesus Christ is the second Adam.

                            The blood line to Mary is significant. In her body was the genetic encoding of the first Adam. The miracle God did was to take part of the flesh, restore Adam’s genetic code of the blood and caused fertilization in an ovum of Mary.  One strand of DNA is all it took: A chromosome is an organized structure of DNA and protein that is found in cells. God did not create anything that was new since genesis for this miracle. Jesus was prepared in the same way the great fish was prepared for Jonah. Pretty cool, huh? Jesus was the second Adam  by having the same purity of blood as did Adam before he disobeyed God.

                            So what did God create since genesis? We are a new creation in Christ. Quite the thing when you think about God resting on the seventh day. Not until Christ ascended and the day of Pentecost was there a requirement for God to get back in the creation business (has He rested from it? Think it through). This new creation does not violate the dominion rules any more than Jonah’s great fish does.  Our seed is not under the dominion of this world, just like the first Adam’s was in the garden before the fall. The new birth is a creation with Sonship and that seed is not corruptible in any fashion and cannot be altered in any way to degrade its order. The spiritual seed we have is not subject to the adversary’s influence in any way. It is a new genus. A new creation.

                             DD

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                              Posted: June 23, 2010, 2:34 pm - IP Logged

                              ummmmm, science. 

                               i LOVE science, and how it confirms the truths of God. 

                               would have eventually taken joker down that road, had he stayed in the game.  because prophecy + science = more proof.

                              but no, despite your long drawn out "explanation",  you didn't specifically answer the question as  i stated it.

                              you have now spun a web with your DNA "story",  that now we are going down the road where you infer that Jesus Christ isn't even really real.   given your "whale" of a story in using the jonah and the whale comparison,  Jesus Christ is caught somewhere inbetwixt a cross between maury povich and the avatar movie.   it takes awhile to expose the WILD machinations of cult "theology", but that's ok, it's what i do.

                              now,  even more juicy,  is the obvious front and center spillage you just performed on LP,  that while you use the bible as your cults "proof of doctrine",  you bend it like stretch armstrong to "make it fit",  because even people COMPLETEY ANTAGONISTIC to Gods word agree there is only ONE "version" of what happened at the "inception" of Jesus Christ as told in obvious LAYMANS terms - that He was born of a virgin, and that God the father gave Him life.

                              i wonder How the Son of God, whom EVERY man is to WORSHIP, feels about being compared to a synthetic fish? 

                              shoot,  i can clog a post with just the fact that the whale in the jonah and the whale tale was REAL.

                              so i will state it in a more confrontive way,  so that you cannot sidestep it with your cults pre-recorded dismissle of it, so that YOU have to answer the question YOURSELF.

                              was Jesus Christ born of a virgin?   meaning,  was God the father His "bioLOGICAL beginning?   you know, the ONLY begotten of the father (which now totally negates your cults rediculous notion of turning Jesus Christ into nothing more than a fantasy / synthetic "fish").

                              would you mind revealing to the reading audience what cult you ascribe to,  so they can more fully understand where you "cull" your machinations from? 

                              Jesus Christ didn't claim to be a DNA strand.  He claimed to be God, and was murdered because of that fact.

                              and, as usual,  you "forgot" to address those hard questions i throw at you, that reveal the fallacy of your position.

                              what about the "I AM the First and the Last", etc  comparison.

                              here is an off the chart question.......did Jesus Christ create Jonah AND the whale?   because YOUR bible says He did.

                              how about that one?

                                          "i am .........."meant to"       

                              P.S.,  that RJoH  is a stand up guy.  thanks,  vision

                                       until further notice,  it's  france everyday

                                 
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